View Full Version : The Private Eye
Stats:
DEX 80
CON 65
STR 60
INT 60
PSI 35
Possible Professions:
• Assassin (Rifles)
• Berserker (Melee)
• Driver (Vehicles)
• Rigger (Drones)
• Engineer (Construction)
• Hacker
• Infiltrator (Pistols)
• Soldier (Heavy Weapons)
• Smuggler (Generic, more RP then PvP Combat)
Initial Class Description:
“The Private Eye does not specialize in any particular area. All of his skills are comparatively weak at the beginning, although evenly developed. A player choosing this class for his Runner strives for a balanced distribution of skill levels in all areas, but must be aware of the fact that this Runner can never be as good in any one skill as a class specializing in that particular area with the exception of a select few.
The Private Eye is your average Neocron citizen, who owns a small apartment and leads a normal life. He moves from job to job and doesn't consider performing courier services for the local companies beneath him. However, he has the potential of becoming a bounty hunter, a Psi fighter, a playboy, or even a criminal. Nevertheless, it is a long road to any of those ‘positions’ for an average citizen.”
How we see the Private Eye in combat:
While the PE can use any weapon type, he’s not going to be the best with any of them. Pistols or Rifles are his best bet, in conjunction with the decent amount of protection his somewhat high constitution and strength offer, close-medium range fighter is a decent choice.
His strength lies in his diversity, he can easily switch between different roles, while never being able to perform them as well as a specialist. With a newer focus towards being able to act as an Engineer, Private Eyes could also fill in the role of a Combat Engineer since his higher amount of defense would make it easier to setup defensive turrets while in a battle without needing as much cover fire as a Spy would.
More options will be opened up for Hand to Hand style fighting for Private Eyes as well for those in the Berserker profession. In this area Private Eyes would have a slight speed advantage over GenTank while still weaker in both damage and armor.
How we see the Private Eye out of Combat:
With reasonably high levels of intelligence, dexterity, and strength a Private Eye can perform with the best of them in areas such as Repair, Recycle, and Construction, as well as areas such as Drivers in most combat vehicles.
Possible changes:
• PE is too similar to Spy in many areas, find ways to differentiate them more.
• Increase his close combat effectiveness.
• Tweak his survival capabilities through armor/resists/psi availability.
• Add more available item options to help with more varied setups.
• Pushing changes that would allow a Private Eye to be equal to a Spy in the construction tradeskill.
james_finn
17-03-06, 17:35
I think that PEs have too much dex, I think that they should be limited to non rares, or maybe just the lower rares, and maybe make it so that non rares are more viable for PvP.
Woot first btw
The first change i would like to see to a Private Eye's skills kinda flies in the face of the suggestion that KK wants to see a wider difference between spies and PEs.
As the main skill of a PE is DEX, i feel that the cap value is still a little too low. I have to use reflexbooster spines and PA (with negatives) and drugs (negatives and drugflash to use any of the half decent weapons. I propose an increase of the DEX cap to 85 at the expense of a lower PSI cap of 30.
This will mean that PE's would have to drug for the blessed deflector (which is a pain anyway as you have to remove PA to cast it) but no longer need drugs for the Beam of Hell (or even slasher / exe etc. depending on imp setup.)
james_finn
17-03-06, 18:05
In doing what you suggest Mr Kot your bringing the PEs more in line with SPYs - If KK wants to move them away from being the same as spies then they need to lower the DEX cap and stop them from using the "rare" weapons. IMHO I think that the Judge should be the highest a PE can get to without nerfing everything.
But to combat this Id like to see some more weapons at a lower level which maybe a PE only class restriction imposed which are viable for PvP - but not as powerful as the rares. Maybe make them have different styles of damage from the rare weapons. This would both differentiate them from SPYs and also allow them to be more viable in Op warring.
Without being an arse, but going back to class descriptions, is a Private Eye, meant to be a 'jack of all trades' ?
Initial Class Description:
“The Private Eye does not specialize in any particular area. All of his skills are comparatively weak at the beginning, although evenly developed. A player choosing this class for his Runner strives for a balanced distribution of skill levels in all areas, but must be aware of the fact that this Runner can never be as good in any one skill as a class specializing in that particular area with the exception of a select few.
The Private Eye is your average Neocron citizen, who owns a small apartment and leads a normal life. He moves from job to job and doesn't consider performing courier services for the local companies beneath him. However, he has the potential of becoming a bounty hunter, a Psi fighter, a playboy, or even a criminal. Nevertheless, it is a long road to any of those ‘positions’ for an average citizen.”
If this is the case, then I agree with James/Delphi where maybe the DEX on a PE should be lowered. If you choose to lower it, then maybe raise in another skill, maybe STR.
If you wanted to raise it Mr Kot, then you may as well just rename the PE class a nerfed Spy.
DEX 70
CON 60
STR 70
INT 60
PSI 40
Sounds interesting to me. More of a "natural all rounder" than we have at the moment.
.hack//sign
17-03-06, 18:41
i think a good way to give the pe a boost, would be to lower his dex by 5, and in turn add it to his psi,that way, a pa wearing pe would be able to cast blessed deflector,and yank his pa(temporarily lowering his defenses) to cast resist buffs 1. no pa pes(lowtech pwns tbh) would have higher defenses(hax/heat/br3) and be able to use gaya glove without drugs. also some pe restricted low lvl hightech weapons would help with the dex gimp. :angel:
james_finn
17-03-06, 18:46
DEX 70
CON 65
STR 70
INT 60
PSI 35
Sounds interesting. Maybe even nerf con 5 and add them to psi? hmmm.
That works, more strength = more damage for close combat
Lower dex = lower weaponry
i think a good way to give the pe a boost, would be to lower his dex by 5, and in turn add it to his psi,that way, a pa wearing pe would be able to cast blessed deflector,and yank his pa(temporarily lowering his defenses) to cast resist buffs 1. no pa pes(lowtech pwns tbh) would have higher defenses(hax/heat/br3) and be able to use gaya glove without drugs. also some pe restricted low lvl hightech weapons would help with the dex gimp.
Ok adding PSI wouldnt work, as it would increase their defneses too much, they would be able to use the gaia glove without drugging, atm using with drugging works fine. Stacking drugs and Chips and you'd be able to have a ressing PE... I disagree.
.hack//sign
17-03-06, 18:49
actually, i can see the extra 10 str working really well,it would let pes use Rav pretty easily,and even make melle pes much better
i think a good way to give the pe a boost, would be to lower his dex by 5, and in turn add it to his psi,that way, a pa wearing pe would be able to cast blessed deflector,and yank his pa(temporarily lowering his defenses) to cast resist buffs 1. no pa pes(lowtech pwns tbh) would have higher defenses(hax/heat/br3) and be able to use gaya glove without drugs. also some pe restricted low lvl hightech weapons would help with the dex gimp.
Besides the few words saying: lower his DEX by 5 :that entire post sounded to me like make PE's God! Higher PSI = better defenses, especially being able to use items and spells like the Gaya Glove without drugs, and therefore higher PSI def spells.
I know this comment should possibly be in the Monk's forum, but it just come to me re-reading my own post.
Why not make the Gaya Glove something like PSI 50 ? out of reach completely(even drugging(I think)) of a PE, not a chance in hell with a Spy, a GenTank is possibly going to have PSI removed, and then just leaves Monks. Even better, limit the Gaya Glove to Monk only!
james_finn
17-03-06, 19:11
Ok heres a thought as to why you shouldnt increase the PSI on a PE...
Havenin +3 PSI
Dolskin +4 PSI
Nightspider +5 PSI
Now with a base of 40 add the drugs 52 now add level 2 PSI chips Exp 2, Mem 2, +6 PSI
Now you can use a Blessed Heal, Basic Ress and Level 2 buffs, and still have space in your head to use an SF, and Motric 3, making you into a blessed PE with TL92 laser pistol..... hmmm overpowered.....
landofcake
17-03-06, 19:29
While the PE can use any weapon type, he’s not going to be the best with any of them.
imo that's kinda negated currently by the fact that they can (mostly) cap everything they want to use, albiet perhaps with a little gimpage.
I dont think PEs should have more STR, not at all.5 STR pts would mean HC PEs using DEV !!!
No way, should only be doable with the use of krinahk NS.
More INT would be viable i think,(like trading 10 INT for 10 DEX) especially for CST PEs. They could also use some heavy belts with a incredibly gimped setup.
The very high end DEX weapons and the current setup they need makes for a PE that is tougher then spy. Maybe it could gimp it more (mainly because high end DEX PEs are naturally tougher then spys, and they can DB).
But overall i think trading 10 DEX for 10 INT would be really nice.
It would make a lot of actually PE-typical weapons (slasher,first love) impossible to use, but if the non rare finaly get decent it would work perfectly.
It would give ppl a real reason to use SPYs and make PEs use weapons we dont see anymore (BoH,RolH,RoG,etc)
Viable (attack wise) non rare using PEs would be something nice to see.
I dont think, I "KNOW!" pe's are a difficult class to play with, why? because their in the middle change them too much and you can screw up everything.
I think lower dex would possibly be a good thing, if they increase other areas perhaps, it's extreamly difficult to do without nerfing too much or over powering.
PEs need xbow and db taken from them, imo lowtech pe should be the standard and lowtech weapons ajusted acordingly.
Also pistol PEs need a large range reduction.
DEX 70
CON 60
STR 70
INT 60
PSI 40
I don't know what this would make them capable of, but I like this a lot at first glance... I'd like to see PEs get access to PA similar to lowest level Melee and H-C PA to promote Rifles, Pistols, Melee, or Heavy - just not the best of any of them.
PE should not have an easy access to DEV.
A bonus STR PA would do just that.
And to add to that topic the actual PE PA are making the PE VERY POWERFULL.
Maybe not rework theyre main skills (STR INT DEX PSI CON) but make PE PAS with no skill bonus, and no negative.
no DEX bonus, and no PC/RC bonus, but no MST/PSI gimping either.
There should be no problem with the PE getting Dev access. If they can use the lower and mid range of the rifle and pistol rares, it shoulkd be just as viable for them to use the low and mid end of the heavy and melee rares. I think perhaps this discussion just underlines that the Heavy line of swirly weapons needs re-assessing. The TLs and spread just aren't right there at the moment.
Possible changes:
• PE is too similar to Spy in many areas, find ways to differentiate them more.
• Increase his close combat effectiveness.
• Tweak his survival capabilities through armor/resists/psi availability.
• Add more available item options to help with more varied setups.
• Pushing changes that would allow a Private Eye to be equal to a Spy in the construction tradeskill. Yes PEs and spies are too similar, but that's hard to change if both of their main array of weapons come under pistols and rifles. Perhaps more lowtech weapons would do the trick. Just make sure that the dmg remains decent, and that a PE with good aim can still kill people reasonably quickly. Not too opionated on the cst thing, except for that atm PEs have to gimp themselves quite a lot atm to be a decent conster
PE's should have the ability to be able to use the PA 1 of any PA they can meet the requirements of.
but i wouldnt want to see them have the same Dex as a tank.
Id be more infavor of
DEX 75
CON 60
STR 70
INT 60
PSI 35
PE's are to close to spys in a few respects, most notably, their ability to cap high end pistols. They really can't cap high end rifles, use some of them yes, but cap no (at least without gimpage), requires more points than the PE has to spend. So really rebalanced the dex 106 and above pistols to make the point requirements to high for them to reach. By this I do not mean the dex req itself but rather the points need in tc pc and so fourth to make it out of their range, make capping more in line with rifle to further discourage their use and keep PEs in the bottom three rare pistols (every class should have a rare imho perhaps adjust it to make it hard if not impossible to cap those bottom three as well).
PE's really aren't competitive in other areas spys excel in, drones, tradeskills, high end vhc's, hacknet, and so fourth. The exception might be poking and repair, but I think the key there is to rebalance the weapons so that they don't have the points to be both a poker and competitive in PvP, same with repair tbh. Many would say the drugged PE is a bit overpowered but look at it for a second, they bust threw two drugs every 10 minutes, it takes a lot to maintain that drugs supply, their psi pool even with gaya is just barely enough to cover one set of buffs. Frankly if any buff runs or drugs run they are screwed, often unable to even use the weapon they wield without their buff. A high end PE is one of the toughest things to keep going for any decent amount of time in a fight, and they only really excel in 1 vs. 1 pvp. In op combat they simply don't put out enough damage to be too competitive, due to all the apus, ppus, and tanks that out damage them plus have better resists(thanks ppu) even with ppu buffs your looking at similar resists to everyone else with lower damage output.
If you really want to distance the PE and the spy, adjust the spies tbh. Adjust the point system to allow for them to use the weapons that are made for them without being gimped. Take a look at the highend rifles for instance, do you know how many point it takes to cap a dissy? Even the spy with is 100 base dex and 100 base int will have trouble sorting that, remaining fast, capping, and having any secondary like repair driving or poking. If the spy has trouble using them, who exactly where these guns made for? On the other hand pistol spys cap too easily in comparison which suggest that the pistols in the high end really need a readjust even more. I've seen spy setups that can poke tl115 with a glove, hack base over 100 lvl 3 software in hn, and cap their pistols with ease, did I mention drive and he's faster than you plus recycles ammo? This spy can kill you hack your belt and if he dies repoke himself and be back in a flash. Now perhaps this is as it should be for the spy, with low defense but a lot of abilities, but if that is the case rifle caps should be on par with pistol then so two spys are on even ground both higher than a PE can reach.
The point to all this rambling is I think the weapons used should be looked at before you change the base setup of a PE. Re balance what they can use and do vs. what a spy can use and do. If pes can only be good at one thing + better defense than spys, while spys can do multiple things with lower defense than PE's you have very different play styles tbh.
If you understand what I said the way I mean it then PE's should really be the opposite of spys more than anything with spys favoring more damage of better defense and the pes favoring better defense over more damage, with tanks being able to be heavy in both while being inept in tradeskilling and psi ability, monks all about psi nothing in the physical or trade skills (lower int cap on monks so all they can do is spec psi use if they want to be good at monking making them not viable in other areas such as poking leaving that up to the spys, leave the monks physically useless) sounds a lot like balance to me...
*** Disclaimer: This post is not intended to show favoritism to either class as I play both and love both ;) More to show my feelings on the matter, as a regular player of both. ***
-A
My main is a PE and is normaly the only combat class I'd play atm, I can live with lowtech weapons provided they are more trust worthy. The libby can be a total joke at times, I don't know whats up with that, I mean in neocron 1 I could really hurt people with it without using damage boost. Not sure if its a hitbox thing being smaller which I suspect, or just me getting use to using the trusty earp + damage boost.
If they lower the DEX lvl then I'd say the best boost for PE's would be a PSI lvl increase to 40 or more. This way PE's don't have to drug for basic resist 3/haz 1/heat 1 and get better damage on there shelters and blessed deflectors. Could also remove the -PSI -MST ? (not to sure which one it is) from the PE powerarmor. Also the judge setup should still be possible and making non rares usefull !!
I think if they fixed the damage weapons do when targets at low health the lowtech tech weapons will become a lot better. So maybe PE's will be fine with lower rares after all, even without damage boost, if PE's are going to still be able to use slasher/executioner etc. Then damage boost should be uncastable with powerarmor on, why ? Well its too f**king over powered. If they make any changes such as this, then they should make PE's level faster and I mean as fast as a SPY would lvl using slasher or something similar. Otherwise WOC will become painfully slow....
PE constructers, humm :p don't even know why we can be a constructer on our PE's, were not pussy spys. We are combat specialists IMO, Hitman/serial killer/body guards/thugs etc is more fitting :). But if you must we need DEX/INTEL boosting implants, erm >.> don't know how you would do this actully.. Guess you would make them PE only and gimp something maybe combat stats, since if a PE wants to be a constructer thats all hes gonna be.
Can't think of anything else, so will watch thread I just don't want to be a totaly nerfed worst class ever you hear ? >.<
DEX 70
CON 60
STR 70
INT 60
PSI 40
Sounds interesting to me. More of a "natural all rounder" than we have at the moment.
I would realy like that. By biggest problem though is how nonrare rifles and pistols are terrable. Dousent seem in line with the TL.
I think PEs should STILL be able to use PA4, but will definately need drugs. Although we should have a way to stop them using high TL pistols/rifles like slasher and exe. Possibly a TC cap for PEs? But keeping their Dex, don't know what for. Possibly some weapon security. So they don't have to drug to use every single weapon - its really annoying. Currently PEs are ONE DEX away from a one-drug slasher/exe setup 8|
Why have a pistol spy when you have a pistol pe? (Purely combat speaking, no hack 110 or poke 115 btw).
PEs would be totaly shite if we stopped them using rares. Totally.
• Add more available item options to help with more varied setups.
I like this a lot as PE's should have different sets of drugs and be able to have a diverse weaponry that is far better than any other class. I dont even know if PE's still have the noob stealth but i never really liked that as it should be a spy only thing.
Give them new items like you said, armor, weapons, implants , anything to vary PE setups. They should Be able to have special abilities like resting and akimbo up to a certain tl.
OK first post on the site so i am sure my words are going to be meaningless to most.........
i have a H-C PE myself and find that capping the weapons is not very difficult with a 3 or 4 slot weapon such as a TpC. This being said, i feel that the capping of the TpC should be raised slightly so that a player may need an Artifact TpC instead. It would give some renewed interest in ultima mods which would raise their worth. As for nerfing dex...... Well NERF DEX AWAY FTW TBH..... I just dont like that fact that they can have such a high damage rate and psi skills. I feel that a renewed interest in armor should be added. Although armor is key to a non PA pe u can make up for it with psi skills. Remove their ability to use certain psi skills and add armor to lower the damage they take. Nerfing their healing ability is key. With a 5 slot TL10 heal a medkit and one of the meals u can almost be god with the damage rates for dex weapons. Not only are they able to out heal a spy but they can almost match their attk.
The only down side to giving them more defense is that in a team with a ppu a pe would be unstopable. So damage nerfing is essential to making the PE a less powerful character......
And if u thin PEs are not overpowered then take a look at how many PE there are in game.... I see alot more PEs then any other character in the game.... It went from Monk-o-cron to PE-o-cron.........
So in a nut shell, Nerf their healing ability and damage out put but give them a bit more defense..........
If i understand it right PEs are supposed to beable to use most weapons but pls nerf them from rare or high lvl rares because good players can be a pe and just about own any other class.
Also make it harder for PEs to lvl i capped in 2 days TBH rhino gunning gives all too much exp for them....
Also add another weapon in the game called the, PWWD Cannon.........
People Who Whine Die Cannon........ so that when u hear people whinning u could drop them in one hit FTW............
Bugs Gunny
18-03-06, 10:24
i think a good way to give the pe a boost, would be to lower his dex by 5, and in turn add it to his psi,that way, a pa wearing pe would be able to cast blessed deflector,and yank his pa(temporarily lowering his defenses) to cast resist buffs 1. no pa pes(lowtech pwns tbh) would have higher defenses(hax/heat/br3) and be able to use gaya glove without drugs. also some pe restricted low lvl hightech weapons would help with the dex gimp. :angel:
Yay a resurecting pe :-)
• PE is too similar to Spy in many areas, find ways to differentiate them more.• Pushing changes that would allow a Private Eye to be equal to a Spy in the construction tradeskill.Err, so do you want to make them different or exactly the same, you've lost me.
Not much constructive criticism here as i've not really been back too long, but I do agree with this:
fix weapon capping.. things cap WAY too low.
turbineS-line
18-03-06, 11:57
PEs are the jack of all trades. They are not expected to be a focused combat class. They do many things well, but not a single thing outstanding.
Private Eyes, right now, can cause serious damage with an XBow. Sure, they worked hard for WOC 1, and their XBow, but the moment they hit XBow status, they breach the point of "well-rounded" and dive into the field of "specialist pistol user." This should not be allowed.
A PE should not be allowed to use such high TL weapons as if they were a focused combat class. They should not be able to use anything with the word "Holy" in it. I'm thinking a TL restriction for a PE as far as weapons are concerned.
Keep the PE the jack of all trades, don't allow it to specialize.
landofcake
18-03-06, 14:37
I agree with whoever mentioned that PE's should be able to get to the low/mid range rares, but not the high ones.
However, i also think they should be able to cap those rares, so that's a very thin balance right there.
I also think you're right about allowing PE's to be about equal in terms of which rares they can use in the HC/MC/PC/RC categories. Although i think something needs to be done about the power of cannons, in that case.
I'm not sure what it's currently like now (on a bit of a hiatus for a few months until i get my own house - connecting from Uni is difficult), but when i had my HC-PE, i drugged him up for a Rav with a DB Sanctum, and that was exceptionally powerful. Cannons also seem to be a lower TL in general than Pistols/Rifles, so you're going to be posed with a problem there if you try and enforce the same sort of "low/mid range rares only" rules on both brackets.
Generally that's my thoughts, although i pray this is done with care rather than an iron fist or we could end up with something ... horrible.
I'd like to see PE strength raised a tad, just so we can see some HC/MC PEs running arooung with weapons other than TPC/PoT/Speed gun.
Or alternatively make some better lower TL cannons and introduce some new drugs, ones which aren't as overpowered as Tiger Blood :lol:.
I've never seen a tank or a PE use anything other than CS/TPC/PoT/Speed gun/Ravager for PvP. Come to think of it, I haven't seen a ravager used for a long time. I'm not saying give every PE a CS (Oh lord - not again) but just some variation other than TPC. At least something rare.
If you ask me, the PE should be removed from all of the High Hi-Tech (HL, Slash, EXEC, etc.) weapon choices, therein giving the Spy his god-given right for specialisation when it comes to weapons.
Spies are useless combat-wise, as long as PE's have access to Healing Light, Slasher, Executioner, etc. etc.
I'd remove access to all those weapons for the PE. However, then, the question that begs is the weapons need changing. The balance between weapons is sort of retarded, considering the fact that they are ALL useless aside from the ones mentioned above (Not counting stuff like CS and Tank/Melee crap).
Meaning, RoG, Liberator, Pain Easier to name a few and all of the weapons that were nerfed oh-so-long-ago, need to be set straight. The damages need to be re-calibrated, so that the PE can dish out good damage with those weapons, and be a noteworthy fighter.
HOWEVER, the weapons like HL, Exec, Slasher, need to be more powerful, because they'd be tailored especially for spies. Spies would dish out more damage, with the drawback of their natural resilience being screwed up (something that PE's would be better at).
Therein would be the balance between the two classes. Potential Damage dealt offset by damage taken. And there would be no loopholes. No "drugging" so that one of the classes can cheat their way into being better or more similar to the other, such as what it is now, PE's drugging up to reach HL or spies sniffing dope to use Shelter. The spies PA is also no help considering the Xray hotfix patch which did no-one any good as far as balance goes, but that's another story.
Coming to PSI, I never really understood why the hell PE PA took away PSI points. PSI is important for PE's, no matter what they are. The whole key of their defense, lies in the PSI. Blessed Deflector should be a given though not the BShelter of course.The negative needs to be transfered to another skill subset. I mean, if you're wearing the PE PA, it means you will be combat oriented. Why nerf combat orientation while trying to use an item that enhances that same aspect?
Anyway, just my random thoughts.
What about removing TC instead of the PSI from PEPA? higher level PA = more TC knocked off !
Theres no way in hell a PE can reach slasher/exe level without PA (I don't think so at least, haven't looked) this would be a good idea imo.
[edit]
I don't think anyone would overspec TC so they could use slasher or exe, because then the gun would be way undercapped since my PE doesn't have a single agility point because it's all in TC and PC, I have to drug for all my agility.
But it might vary totally on someone elses setup..
[editagain]
Scrap this idea, the TC values are so close together for each weapon that it won't be a problem to overspec TC as a PE to make up for any loss PA could give. Unless the guys behind the scenes think of a way to make it possible.
Dribble Joy
18-03-06, 19:17
• PE is too similar to Spy in many areas, find ways to differentiate them more.
• Increase his close combat effectiveness.
• Tweak his survival capabilities through armor/resists/psi availability.
• Add more available item options to help with more varied setups.
• Pushing changes that would allow a Private Eye to be equal to a Spy in the construction tradeskill.
Class differentiation is the whole reason behind my previously 'pointless' suggestion for the restriction of high end dex weapons to PEs.
As for PEs capping high end weapons, that's due to a skills mess up, they should not be capping them currently, and it's going to be fixed, so you can't really take it as a main problem.
The similarity between spies and PEs lies in many areas though, and a number of them are issues with the spy; too much defence for the most part. As well as no weapon throughout their potential dex range.
My main suggestion for the PE is a change to their PA.
Remove the DEX and PSI mainstat bonii/malii from it, and change the mst loss to psu at double the PC bonus.
Eg. PA3: +10 PC, -20 PSU.
You could use the gaya glove, but you'd loose pretty much all the benefits.
PE max dex would be about 108 ish, RoLH area.
The other issue with the PA is the whole defence/offence problem, the current offence boost is not countered sufficiently. If you choose not to use a PA you gain not much more defence by using a viper/titan.
The armour bonus on PA should be much lower than the comparable non-PA armour chests.
This goes for all combat PAs too.
PA should be a setup choice, but not an overly restrictive item.
PEs are the jack of all trades. They are not expected to be a focused combat class. They do many things well, but not a single thing outstanding.
PEs are as specialised a combat class as any other, if not more so. They simply go about it in different ways.
Well i read alot of this but stop over time. Seems like alot people want or wouldnt mind a DEX change.
But you also have to look at how low end Pistols are anyway. It's really made for a tradeskiller or a PE anyway ( in general ) and Spys are masters at range weapons ( i.e. Rifles ) and Drones.
The highest DEX is TL113 in Pistols and something like TL116 in Rifles. Rifle PE is a very hard setup... quite easy for a Spy
I understand the ideas but I think alot spies forgot that they can actually use Rifles and not suffer like a PE would in points. I dont know if PE's should be able to use Slasher or not. That really doesnt matter to me, seems like a beginners weapon tbh ( not to say its not powerful. kick ass gun )
The extra STR sounds nice.. take alot less damage with better armor or the extra 5 to PSI... I hardly thing PE and Tank should have the same DEX though. Thats kind of silly.
But yeah, -5 DEX to PEs and adding it to PSI or STR wouldnt be so bad. Be harder to cap most/alot weapons though... including pistols but we tend to manage.... more higher level Low Tech Weapons would be nice as spies seems as though they should be the master of High Tech
FYI: that would change PE's max DEX to 105 ( 4 +5 DEX brain, +5 spine, +5 PA) ...but PPR would max out at DEX 100 | not counting DoY Eyes +1 DEX lol
Anyway. Just noticed but even with 80 DEX cap. Thats only 110 max DEX. So PE "cant" really use a Slasher... only due to drugs that its possible at the current setup.
Dribble Joy
19-03-06, 00:40
Where a PE 'should' be using a tl80-100 rifle, a spy should be using a tl100-130 rifle, both being equally 'hard' to setup.
As for changing PE's mainstat caps, nah, I think where it is is sufficient, but there are issues with the items.
-boost low tech pistols ( lib, earp,)
-make rolh and boh actually work
-remove dex eg. +factor of all PE PAs
-keep damage boost
-edit resists as required
Dribble Joy
19-03-06, 00:57
UNless you remove DB from the team arena, no combat class should have it.
If you balance them for it, they loose out on it's benefits when in a team situation. So either you remove it from their abilities or you make it some form of self cast item.
personally whether or not a PE can use high TL stuff isnt much of an issue as to do it, a PE must drug and gimp other stats to do so; in short they are giving up "enough".
but what I do believe (which i also reiterated on the end of my monkey balance post) is that we should move dmg boost higher in the TL department; like TL 130 or something... so that only pure PPUs would have access.
then the PEs will still do decent dmg with the high TL stuff; jsut not as much as now with dmg boost (and thus be a lot more managable); and hybrid monkies wont be as bad cuz they dunt have dmg boost.
personally whether or not a PE can use high TL stuff isnt much of an issue as to do it, a PE must drug and gimp other stats to do so; in short they are giving up "enough".
right now it is. 2x10min drugs isn't really giving up much of anything, and you can use a slasher, db and hit lowtech resists.
but as I mentioned before and a couple others did as well, a TL restriction isn't the solution; fixing the skills is! things are just too easy to cap. the way things were, I suppose a PE could use a slasher but he'd either cap it so low it wasn't any better then a low TL wep, or he'd gimp his resists severely. and PE's should keep DB because it's what makes using the real lowtech stuff viable.. (ex nonrares)
Dribble Joy
19-03-06, 14:49
but as I mentioned before and a couple others did as well, a TL restriction isn't the solution; fixing the skills is! things are just too easy to cap. the way things were, I suppose a PE could use a slasher but he'd either cap it so low it wasn't any better then a low TL wep, or he'd gimp his resists severely. and PE's should keep DB because it's what makes using the real lowtech stuff viable.. (ex nonrares)
The only reason I suggest dex restrictons on PEs is due to class differentiation, otherwise there's no real issue, PEs could use a slasher, but their dmg/freq would be terrible. Say a PE uses a slasher, but uses blacksun skilling, he should get about the same dmg/freq (maybe a bit more because of the extra dex) with the slasher as with the BS.
People really need to get away from the idea that they must cap a weapon. If the skill system is working properly, then the choice of skilling on a weapon shouldn't leave them unviable.
Possible Professions:
• Assassin (Rifles): Remove that from PEs. its a better Spy role
• Berserker (Melee): Should be removed ithink
• Driver (Vehicles): Yes. Thats a PEs World. Give him something to do.
• Rigger (Drones): Works, and fits good
• Engineer (Construction): Yes,but...
• Hacker: Yes,but..
• Infiltrator (Pistols): Yes
• Soldier (Heavy Weapons): Yes, but...
• Smuggler (Generic, more RP then PvP Combat): Yes
I think Rifles should go to the SPYs. If not completely then the whole T-C rifle stuff.
The combat supporter role is perfect for the PE, and if he really likes to PvP a lot he can use Pistols.
Combat driver is a perfect role for PE. but then again VHC are pretty useless against "ppl" shooting over hills or around walls ;)
Hacker, hmm. Should they really walk the Hacknet ? i think its ok that they are hackers, but more like the old times. they should be good in open doors,boxes, hack the first layer of an OP or the belts of other ppl.
heavy weapons are OK, but some of the VHC weapons should have lower Skills.
The PE is good with his limited skill levels but then again there is nothing to do to use them all. there is the Pistol/Rifle and maybe the Driver. No other use for everything else because the game dont offer full time options.
an old example for a PE is the engeneer in Planetside. Repair Driving and small anti Tank arms.
Possible Professions:
• Assassin (Rifles): Remove that from PEs. its a better Spy role
• Berserker (Melee): Should be removed ithink
• Driver (Vehicles): Yes. Thats a PEs World. Give him something to do.
• Rigger (Drones): Works, and fits good
• Engineer (Construction): Yes,but...
• Hacker: Yes,but..
• Infiltrator (Pistols): Yes
• Soldier (Heavy Weapons): Yes, but...
• Smuggler (Generic, more RP then PvP Combat): Yes
I think Rifles should go to the SPYs. If not completely then the whole T-C rifle stuff.
The combat supporter role is perfect for the PE, and if he really likes to PvP a lot he can use Pistols.
Combat driver is a perfect role for PE. but then again VHC are pretty useless against "ppl" shooting over hills or around walls
Hacker, hmm. Should they really walk the Hacknet ? i think its ok that they are hackers, but more like the old times. they should be good in open doors,boxes, hack the first layer of an OP or the belts of other ppl.
heavy weapons are OK, but some of the VHC weapons should have lower Skills.
The PE is good with his limited skill levels but then again there is nothing to do to use them all. there is the Pistol/Rifle and maybe the Driver. No other use for everything else because the game dont offer full time options.
an old example for a PE is the engeneer in Planetside. Repair Driving and small anti Tank arms.
You're saying you'd rather have droner PEs rather than Rifle PEs or Melee PEs? :wtf:
Those kind of restrictions would make PEs totally boring. Rifle PEs will be totally viable when rifles get fixed. At the moment theres no way in hell you'll see a lowtech rifle spy, you see lowtech rifles PEs sure, they work - less than pistol PEs (never see lowtech pistol PEs, except than Wyatt Earp using guy, simply because Lib and WE arent powerful enough). If we had some midrange rifles (TL 99-109ish, any higher is spy territory.) that worked well, I think lowtech and midtech rifle would be totally viable.
Melee PEs are good as they are, and droner PEs I think are only used to overcap dex. I've never seen or heard of a droner PE being used for PvP..
You're saying you'd rather have droner PEs rather than Rifle PEs or Melee PEs? :wtf:...
its about professions not about skills. theres nothing wrong with a PE using M-C weapons. i think it will be done in the future, but on the concept of making professions a thing to think about KK should remove that from the Profession list.
We are talking about making a PE even better then he already is. PE's are commonly known as the universal character, he can do anything with the right set up and even with drugs. But there are post saying he should be allowed to do more of those things, with out being gimped in other areas he already can do, and be allowed to do so with out any or no trouble. Well, lets just give the PE god mode why dont we.
For the sake of the game, remember a PE isnt a soldier, PE's are civilians. PE's werent made to be confrontational in head on battles. Like a civilian militia, they are better at gurilla warfare, hit and run tactics. They shouldnt beable to take on a train soldier head on, hence the reason PE's have a minor stealth tool.
But what I see here are players trying to make the PE some thing he isnt ment to be. Spies are covert, PE's are gurilla warfare. Spies werent trained to take major dmg, PE's were taught they need a medic to survive, and to get out of the area when they are badly beaten. PE's are nats that pester the regular army, not a fighting force to do head on battles with the regulars.
PE's are over powered with their basic resist 2's and shelters, and the ability to imp and drug to higher spells and use db's, with, to be honest, a minor gimping of their other skills. PE's can gun rhinos and a few other things with the right set ups, and even drugs. To be honest PE's can already do too much. Like the other non tank class, PE's can reach nearly the hp of a tank. Given the rb 2, the s/d combo and better healing, and the use of better belts, and thier db's, the PE out reaches the tanks hp. Which is why any good PE can own a tank in a fight.
At the persent, I know I am looking like a doom sayer, but before any one says anything negative about me. Or that I dont know what I am talking about.
Why am I saying this? Simple, I have 2 PE's, I have 2 spies, I have 2 ppu's, I have 2 apu's, I have 2 gentanks. And I have 2 trade skillers. I would love for my PE's to be a God of War, I would love for my Apu's to be a God of War, I would love for my Spies to be the God of War. But to be honest, they are all little to powerfull, especialy with a ppu. But in fairness to the game, it would be wrong to make them any more powerful.
The balencing isn't needed in the skill lvls, but in the "gadgets" they use. Every one wants thier main character to benefit from the rebalencing, and to be honest, that is to be expected. But it is harder to know when it isnt needed. And harder to admit to one self they are already tough enough. And due to that. Then I say, when is enough enough? And when do we stop accusing other classes of being over powered. As it is human nature to cry foul when we think we are getting beat badly, or when it takes to long to win.
Know when to stop, and stop when it's gone to far.
Posting my opinions of a balanced/storyline fitting mainskill setup for each class.
PE
Int 60 -> 65
Dex 80 -> 70
Str 60 -> 70
Con 65 -> 65
psi 35 -> 25
The PE, with the most commonly used drugs would be using a damage boost/judge/RoG/Rav/BoC
of course not all at the same time, but I'm not going to waste time on possible setups, these would just be the most commonly used.
Hell-demon
19-03-06, 20:34
dex 75
str 70
con 60
intell 60
psi 35
that seems ok. PE's shouldn't have teh same dex as a tank IMO
Reduce dex, and up strength a bit. That's a start in my opinion.
Safunte, as onero S said, please stop thinking skill changes will solve all :p
Most classes would suck if the changes you want were implemented..
With the change you are asking for PEs, it buffs melee pes A LOT more than you realise. First, they can use PoT and Speed Gun (if they were not dumb and decided to spec HC too) without drugging, with drugging they can reach even higher TL weapons AND they can use medium energy belt without drugging. I don't think they drug for it anyways.
And you've allowed them to use a Duranium 4/titan/medium nrg belt/Duranium 4/heavy inq boot setup instead of inq4/dura4/light nrgbelt/inq4/dura4 which boosts their resits by a large noticable amount.
This still leaves them with a disgustingly high runspeed (98.3 on NS with pure agility).. So yeah.. This is a buff to an already fine class.
int:50
str:55
dex:70
con:65
psi:60
int:50
str:55
dex:70
con:65
psi:60
Woo unkillable blessed Judge PEs :p
I can't type.
Reduce dex, and up strength a bit. That's a start in my opinion.
Safunte, as onero S said, please stop thinking skill changes will solve all :p
Most classes would suck if the changes you want were implemented..
With the change you are asking for PEs, it buffs melee pes A LOT more than you realise. First, they can use PoT and Speed Gun (if they were not dumb and decided to spec HC too) without drugging, with drugging they can reach even higher TL weapons AND they can use medium energy belt without drugging. I don't think they drug for it anyways.
And you've allowed them to use a Duranium 4/titan/medium nrg belt/Duranium 4/heavy inq boot setup instead of inq4/dura4/light nrgbelt/inq4/dura4 which boosts their resits by a large noticable amount.
This still leaves them with a disgustingly high runspeed (98.3 on NS with pure agility).. So yeah.. This is a buff to an already fine class.
dogface, as i had said, skill changes wont solve all... [ edited ]. I only said they will help.
dogface, as i had said, skill changes wont solve all... [ edited ] I only said they will help.
Stop insulting people because they don't like your ideas dammit !
Have a nice day.
..
what are you on about? so far everyone has been talking about several ideas for PE's that would essentially be nerfs...
the idea of balance is also that any class vs any class 1vs1, only player skill would matter (exactly even).
..the idea of balance is also that any class vs any class 1vs1, only player skill would matter (exactly even).
the problem is how to define one one on.if you count a spy can kill a tank with a SH on max range as easy as a tank kill him on short then its no problem.
but most ppl see one on one in neocron as 10m away.
well in a 1vs1 sniper vs tank at close range shouldn't it still be balanced? the sniper has almost no defense but he can 1-2 shot kill..
the advantage of distance being no danger from him or nearby targets, take on more then one target.. or whatever.
but i have no idea.. throwing long range combat into the mix does my head in as far as contemplating balance...
the problem is how to define one one on.if you count a spy can kill a tank with a SH on max range as easy as a tank kill him on short then its no problem.
but most ppl see one on one in neocron as 10m away.
lol i been reading all this and thinking the same thing... I read the spy section and its mostly about making them stronger or devices. I like the devices idea I guess but have you ever thought not to be that close in the 1st place. But not to get off topic... PEs?
Good at it but not masters.... PE's current PSI levels allow them to be good but no where close to an actually PPU. Thus the ability to use damage boost and low level Haz and heals - if that makes any sense.
PE's should be able to do mild close/ face-to-face combat. They are mini soldier after all or standard/good fighters
If you really want to make them weaker offensive then whatever they drop in offense they'll gain in defense - you drop thier offense in weapon skill. you cant help but gain in defense, either threw strenght or magic *cough*psi.
And Eprodigy is right. the idea is balance... not drop thier defensive and offensive combat skill - they'd become the weakest char and at a great disadvantage
And my personal thought: PE and Pistols go together like Cups and Cakes lol
Dribble Joy
20-03-06, 03:35
You need to balance all parts of PvP. Close combat must be balanced for all classes and sub classes.
Being able to extend your influence beyond that of other's is a somewhat contentious issue. Should you really be able to hurt someone when they cannot return fire?
You can't really argue for a complete reduction of all weapon systems to melee range, but you can argue for increased skilling for the capability to extend you range of influence.
Melee has no range skilling, pistols (should) have minimal, HC is really up to the style of the player in my mind (low wep skilling for low range, high for longer) and rifles a large amount.
If people want to increase this area of influence, they must sacrifice something for it, you cannot have everything.
We also need to make sure that those who do not do this benefit accordingly and to the right degree.
I thought and posted this in another post and thought it MIGHT be helpful/useful
and thats the implantation of extended requirements. I mean I really dont care.I dont like slasher anyway lol but ppl say PE shouldnt be able to use it even though they couldnt cap it anyway ( if it is possible you'll have very low run speed from the AGL point hit ) but...
change:
DEX: 113 P-C: 113 T-C: 88
to
DEX: 113 INT: 80 P-C: 113 T-C: 88
this would slove that problem and save on coding/reworking PE's level system/Power Armor, etc... though more STR would b nice :P but 25 less points to work with under DEX would suck.
PE are the master of pistols ( in my eyes ) but some reason ppl dont think they should be able to use all of them so hey...
Also, that would work with any High Tech Rifle and Pistols.. minimum on H-C cuz tanks dumb :P big love'ale oths
I'd keep RoLH, Judge, and BoH within PE INT rang though. Or slightly over... SF adds +5 so maybe 63 INT req... just brain storming...
Bugs Gunny
20-03-06, 13:47
It's funny how people claim they have several pes, yet haven't got a clue as to what they are talking about. They obviously don't play them.
There's two things so far that i'd like to comment on:
1) remove high end rares/tc guns from the pe.
Well, it all depends on how the whole weapons line will be changed, you're all assuming that we're keeping dammage and stats on our guns.....
2) lower dex for pes. Having -5dex and +5str would make the pe a more versatile char to play, indeed removing him from some weapons. I like this.
The whole background thing someone posted here about pes being the regular in the army, not being able to do much but run if there's no medic.
Well, you have your geneticaly engineered fighters, and then the biomechanicaly and chemicaly enhanced ones.... Pes are the normal people, who implant like mad, drug like hell to become somewhat like the geneticaly privileged gentank. Saying that a pe will easily get more hp than a tank is just silly.
[...]The whole background thing someone posted here about pes being the regular in the army, not being able to do much but run if there's no medic.[...]
Hmm, this picture is not matching... not as long as the PE keeps PSI. (And while i support the idea of removing PSI from the tank and spy, i would say that the PE should keep it.)
theres the option of not changing pes at all :angel:
remove drugs for pes
this makes them able to use the best of the best setups with alot better con then a spy
no other class benefit as much from drugs as pes, not even spies
Dribble Joy
21-03-06, 10:03
I'd rather all classes benefitted equally from drugs.
Bugs Gunny
21-03-06, 10:10
Removal of drugs from pes would mean DJ would go back to being the only pe on the server :angel:
remove drugs for pes
[...]
no other class benefit as much from drugs as pes, not even spiesYeah, kill PEs :rolleyes:
And i think that Spys benefit more from Drugs than PEs, hell even Tanks get a shitload of additional resis with drugs.
Dribble Joy
21-03-06, 10:28
Hehe.
I wouldn't mind some removal of the mainstat bonii on some of the drugs (though clearly that's what they are mostly used for), mainly because of the combinations.
Maybe keep the lvl4 drugs (RF, NS, BF etc) with mainstat stuff, but ditch it on the others.
Hehe.
I wouldn't mind some removal of the mainstat bonii on some of the drugs (though clearly that's what they are mostly used for), mainly because of the combinations.
Maybe keep the lvl4 drugs (RF, NS, BF etc) with mainstat stuff, but ditch it on the others.You don't like HC-PEs with TPC or STORMLaser, don't you? ;)
Dribble Joy
21-03-06, 10:49
Given that the tls of the weapons are probably going to change and the imps will also, that would be irrelevant. I have no problem with HC PEs, besides, you only need one drug for a TPC.
Hmm, this picture is not matching... not as long as the PE keeps PSI. (And while i support the idea of removing PSI from the tank and spy, i would say that the PE should keep it.)
Nah Spy's should keep PSI... it is a type of science. It's understandable that any "race" with a knowledge of science would have some understanding of PSI magic and technology but wouldnt believe in it over thier own tech ( i.e. guns/drones ) etc
And well i think my idea kind of solved the "PE's shouldnt be able to use high level pistols" rant and I agree with Gunny... we dont know what the new change in weapon damage will do. High end rifle might outdo slasher then spy's wouldnt even care. Which it might already. but I believe Slasher has a higher fire rate then Disruptor as well as all the pulselaser types.
And I dont know. the whole story about PE being you normal basic citizen. Well they still PE ( Private Eyes ). In that respect, detective, ground troops, "cops"
And any one thats done basic training knows that ground troops and cops know a liltte bit of everything.. they have to.. have to be ready for anything. Maybe not the best at the field they know but know enough to get by. I think this is the bases of the PE. so yes a field medic but not the best, weapons support but nothing like a Agent (spy), and some combat skills but not close to a tanks.
The whole background thing someone posted here about pes being the regular in the army, not being able to do much but run if there's no medic.
Guess I missed over that but if that was true, who ever said it lol then spy shouldnt even be hit soft without dying =P Cause they bodies could not carry or go threw all the things they go threw. Big ups to my Inquis wearing Spys :)
I guess we should see what the new weapon system thing everyone's talking effects game play then return to this type of topic
As for drugs, what cop gone bad doesnt use drugs :) lol Tanks and PE seems idea for the major drug users of the game.. Tanks stim packs, endorphin, adrenaline. Private Eyes, coffee lol... troop boosters like more STR, things to help focus and awareness. That could break down into temporary weapon lore gain alone side P-C and or R-C.
There are actually drugs that allow you to use weapons better, they steady you aim and make you less tense and for a momment, help you eye targets better. This isnt to far fetched for a ground troop.
Dribble Joy
21-03-06, 12:12
What we could have is combat versions of the dragon drugs.
Like +30 HC (and RC and PC and APU), but like -25 fire, energy and xray armour.
who says that PEs shoudl use drugs ? and use slashers and execs ? i think that those are a bit to good for pes to be fair xbow as well tbh but at least thats woc
Dribble Joy
21-03-06, 13:47
Drugs are part of the problem, not all of it, and it's just restrictive to disallow them to PEs. Better to limit the mainstat benefits from drugs and alter other items so that PEs and spies are better distinguished.
That and change the tls of some of the weapons.
rather than say "PE's cant use drugs" which dont fit the RP aspect let alone the fact it would be hugely unfair, howabout you can only be under the effects of one drug at any time.
this allows HC PE's to function and means that dex based PE's will have to pick the drug they wish to use.
have it so that the strongest drug gives you its stats, Tiger Blood overrides redflash overrides whiteflash overrrides Serumderibat or things to that effect.
this would fit both RP and gameplay mechanics.
Aye... one drug at a time would make sense.
A more painful variant would be, too much drugging within a short time could reduce Con or Hlt or could even add SI to the character.
or even kill you due to ODing and constant abuse..
There probably won't be any need to gimp drugs after the balancing for weapons is done, PEs will be put in their place and I'm sure Dirus won't forget about what effects drugs will have on PEs when it's all done.
One thought about PE's.
Currently to totally cap a Monk, Spy or Tank you need a total of about 315 million XP. To cap a PE, you need a total of about 100 mil XP (This figure may be a bit out as I don't have a PE to hand at this time)
Generally, it also takes less time for a PE to cap. Now should a PE be allowed to spend less time getting capped, than Monks, Spies or Tanks?
Dribble Joy
21-03-06, 16:26
Equal time to cap as any class, all classes should take equal effort ot level/cap.
I think they should level faster, since all other classes are leveling to be the absolute BEST in that field. Where are PEs are leveling to be not-so-good at that area. They need SOME kind of appeal to them.
Plus I believe PEs are more likely to LoM more than any other class, so they need to make the XP back easier. That's just an opinion, I've lommed my PE more than any of the other classes I have (all classes except a monk) just because I want to get the most out of his opportunities of doing a bit of everything.
[edit]
My PE has gone from lowtech pistols, to hightec pistols (judge level) to lowtech rifles then back up to hightec pistols (slasher level) now I'm planning on making him a HC PE - simply because my other chars have borrowed his shit and HC PEs don't need anything special (SA, Herc, rares etc etc) to be able to max their setup.
Sorry for double post (yah yah yah)
Discussion Update: Private Eye
Thoughts/Ideas on the role of the Private Eye:
- Allrounder role: No longer accurate – should be restored YES
- Solo player role: Works well – should be upheld Unsure
- Difference between PE and Spy too small – should be changed YES
Thoughts/Ideas concerning the mainskill distribution:
- Current state: STR 60 / DEX 80 / CON 65 / INT 60 / PSI 35
- More STR at the cost of DEX and CON Dex OR Con
- More PSI at the cost of DEX (also CON or INT) NO
- More INT at the costof DEX (also CON or PSI) NO
Thoughts/Ideas on the current/possible professions:
- Remove Assassin (Spy-only) NO NO NO (Lowtech rifle PEs lose, allow PEs to be lowtech somehow :()
- Remove Berserker NO NO NO(Melee PEs are good, theres no reason to remove them)
- Introduce Combat Medic (PPU PE) YES (will be interesting with rez pe)
- Enhance the possibilities as Engineer YES
Ideas to rebalance the PE:
- Overpowered: PE + Xbow – Xbow should only be available to the Spy Unsure
- Limit PE to low and medium techlevel weapons, no rares NO NO NO
- Leave the damage output as it is, but instead increase the tank’s damage output Why Not
- Remove or severly limit stealth for the PE NO (perhaps add a drugflash effect while in stealth, movement effects too)
- Less healing capability, less damage more defense Unsure
- Should be unable to cap weapons Depends which weapons
- Should not be able to use damage boost Lowtech ONLY
- Make Resurrection available to PEs again YEEEAHH !!
General ideas concerning the rebalancing:
- Limit the amount of drugs that can be active at the same time No more than 4
- Stealth could cancel any shelters, deflectors or other buffs (temporarily or for good) Unsure (Not instantly cancel, start a countdown timer)
- Rework the ranges of weapons respectively weapont types YES definately
- Adjust the clip sizes for pistols YES some pistols
- Johnes items are too strong I wouldn't say so
Comments:
The Private Eye is generally considered „balanced“. However, some combinations (i.e. Xbow, Johnes Stealth Tool) seem too powerful.
These are my views on the new idea's, if you want me to justify them then I will. I feel very strongly about some, ESPECIALLY not being able to have lowtech rifle PEs OR berserker PEs.
Apocalypsox
21-03-06, 19:42
Dog, that seems you want PEs to be slightly overpowered than the other classes come the balancing...but i beleive that the "cancel all buffs if stealthed" is a good idea, and make the buffs stay down. stealth is a tool for retreating anyways.
Dribble Joy
21-03-06, 19:47
Discussion Update: Private Eye
Thoughts/Ideas on the role of the Private Eye:
- Allrounder role: No longer accurate – should be restored
- Solo player role: Works well – should be upheld
- Difference between PE and Spy too small – should be changed
Indeed.
Thoughts/Ideas concerning the mainskill distribution:
- Current state: STR 60 / DEX 80 / CON 65 / INT 60 / PSI 35
- More STR at the cost of DEX and CON
- More PSI at the cost of DEX (also CON or INT)
- More INT at the costof DEX (also CON or PSI)
No, the mainskill cpas have been like this for a long time and have proved to be very well rounded for the roles and abilites that the PE has.
Thoughts/Ideas on the current/possible professions:
- Remove Assassin (Spy-only)
Ehhh.... no.
- Remove Berserker
Why?
- Introduce Combat Medic (PPU PE)
- Enhance the possibilities as Engineer
No problems there.
Ideas to rebalance the PE:
- Overpowered: PE + Xbow – Xbow should only be available to the Spy
Nah, it's not the fact alone that PEs can use it, it's the skill system.
WoC weapons ingeneral need a rework and need to be left out of all of this.
- Limit PE to low and medium techlevel weapons, no rares
TL restriction, not simply rares.
105 tops.
- Leave the damage output as it is, but instead increase the tank’s damage output
Eh?
- Remove or severly limit stealth for the PE
Stealth is a spearate issue, and as it stands noone should have it.
- Less healing capability, less damage more defense
I think heals in general are a separate issue, so they should be looked into at further point in time.
PEs should have more defence than spies, less offence.
- Should be unable to cap weapons
Noone should be able to cap their weapon, not PEs, not tanks, not apus and not spies.
Only through 'gimping' and extreme 'offence' setups should they do that.
Leaving dmg/freq open ended makes for a much more varied and balanced situation.
- Should not be able to use damage boost
NO COMBAT CLASS SHOULD BE ABLE TO USE DB.
- Make Resurrection available to PEs again
No.
General ideas concerning the rebalancing:
- Limit the amount of drugs that can be active at the same time
Too restrictive, rework drugs as they are.
- Stealth could cancel any shelters, deflectors or other buffs (temporarily or for good)
Hmmmm....
- Rework the ranges of weapons respectively weapont types
- Adjust the clip sizes for pistols
- Johnes items are too strong
Agreed, but adjust all the clip sizes for all weapons.
Comments:
The Private Eye is generally considered „balanced“. However, some combinations (i.e. Xbow, Johnes Stealth Tool) seem too powerful.
Changes to those items and the skill system would make things better, blanket removals don't help.
What's overpowering about what I wrote?
Ideas to rebalance the PE:
- Overpowered: PE + Xbow – Xbow should only be available to the Spy
It annoys me how ppl have reacted over this subject..... it seems to me that ppl arent thinking about the fact that everything is gonna change damage wise.
Not only that but all the other weapons along with maybe some new weapons are gonna be changing around where the bow is positioned.
You have to consider where all the other classes are gonna be in after their balancing work is done too.
Hell atm there are only 2 maybe 3 hitech rifles that are really worth using.
And worse still there is only one hitech cannon that is worth using.
Has this become a jealously issue because users of the other balistic weapon classes feel hard done by. I too have felt the same frustration on my tank and spy at times.
I think most nc1 ppl can remember just how easy the RoG and RoLH were to aim and they both used to do easily pvp worthy damage.
I tell you if the RoG was fixed in a patch tomorrow i'd be lomming my rifle pe back to hitech straight away and i can well imagine so would a few others which would be great and create more variety of ppl running around.
If the other classes had a viable woc item and a better range of usable weapons i bet we wouldnt be hearing about ppls discontent with the bow.
I understand and accept as we all do, that changes made might... no WILL effect some or all of our chars is ways we dislike but really its a different kettle of fish with woc because of how utterly dull/boring/annoying/time sink it is to achieve. Like DJ said above it should be left till the none woc items are sorted. Then we will know where we can go with the woc items and by how much.
IMO they dont do the masses of damage that some ppl claim. I think its more to do with the 30 shots between reloads where the advantage is to be gained.
To sum things up it shouldnt be a case of take it off them. By all means rework it, nerf it or whatever... but dont take it away from them.
but i beleive that the "cancel all buffs if stealthed" is a good idea, and make the buffs stay down. stealth is a tool for retreating anyways.
YES defo, i really like that idea. Healing while stealthed is a bitch manouver and dropping out of stealth without sd will make ppl think twice about reaching for that jones tool
- Stealth could cancel any shelters, deflectors or other buffs (temporarily or for good)
Whats the point of temporarily? Buffs On, stealth and buffs come off (can't be hit really though), stealth runs out and buffs automatically are re-applied? Whats the point as they are either buffed or invisible the whole time?
Stealth = Cancel buffs /signed
but i beleive that the "cancel all buffs if stealthed" is a good idea, and make the buffs stay down. stealth is a tool for retreating anyways.That would make PvP on Spies and PE's even lamer than people "say" it is at the moment.
Barry Chuckle runs into Paul Chuckle (enemy)
Barry Chuckle nearly gets killed by Paul Chuckle
Barry Chuckle stealths just before death and runs away
Barry Chuckle unstealths only to find he can't re-buff himself and go back to fight Paul Chuckle
Barry Chuckle runs away
Paul Chuckle gets bored because he has to find someone else to try and kill
Chuckle Brothers FTW
http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/guide/images/220/chucklevision_1.jpg
I'd still like to know how my opinion on the change (posted above) are making PEs overpowered. I call BS.
That would make PvP on Spies and PE's even lamer than people "say" it is at the moment.
Spies?
And there i was thinking we (meaning myself and the person u quoted) was talking about PE's in the..... PE balance forum.
I dont remember anyone mentioning spies.
The spies stealth ability is a different matter. There is a place set aside to discuss that.
I don't want PEs to be the new blessed hybs :(
Blessed hybs combat is slow and boring, any class with high defence / low offence sounds boring. Should have a choice of high offence / low defences or vice versa so we don't end up with cookie cutter setups where all PEs are the same.
Dribble Joy
21-03-06, 23:36
Hopefully there will be a range, but that range won't go as far as the spy and apu in regards to offence.
Spies defence is hardly that inferior to PEs as it is though.
Dribble Joy
21-03-06, 23:48
Yes, but hopefully that is to change.
Ah but will PEs go up or will spies go down?
Which would you all prefer?
Dribble Joy
22-03-06, 00:12
They will probably all change, so neither will really go up or down.
But I suppose spy defence will go down and PE offence will go back to what it was.
That would make PvP on Spies and PE's even lamer than people "say" it is at the moment.
Barry Chuckle runs into Paul Chuckle (enemy)
Barry Chuckle nearly gets killed by Paul Chuckle
Barry Chuckle stealths just before death and runs away
Barry Chuckle unstealths only to find he can't re-buff himself and go back to fight Paul Chuckle
Barry Chuckle runs away
Paul Chuckle gets bored because he has to find someone else to try and kill
True. I'd just hide till I could recast def's spells instead of going back into the fight auto. Not to mention the person that didnt steath still has buff's and can find this time to heal up.
Nice idea though... would make you think twice about stealthing... or maybe a 5 second drugflash after coming out of stealth ( all about balance right ? )
PE's and xbow and weapons in general wont really matter sense they are reworking the weapons anyway... The way some of the ppl here are talking... they want to limit PE's to the TL80 weapons while spys still get the near TL120 weapons... that's an option but with that much power and Spy's DEF so close to PE's right now... should Spy's take a greater CON hit ? Balance right ?
I don't want PEs to be the new blessed hybs :(
Blessed hybs combat is slow and boring, any class with high defence / low offence sounds boring. Should have a choice of high offence / low defences or vice versa so we don't end up with cookie cutter setups where all PEs are the same.
Yea thats true. PE may cap sooner but you have to think. the more powerful the weapons the more xp you gain over time. Any Spy using Slasher and/or High level drones and APU knows how fast you gain xp with those over TL100 weapons. PE being stuck with low end guns will greatly make xping harder over time... biggest effect of this would be WoC. A long run unbalance
Looking at the pe and spy ideas kk has gathered from the community in the new post and from that i think its clear. Most people on these boards dont have a clue about balance. People say "Lets make PE's and Spies diffrent" and all the actual ideas make them similar. People say "Lets make pe's more of an all arounder" while wanting more and more possable pe roles removed. Am i the only one seeing this?
I do however like most of the ideas KK thought up. Just not most of the community ideas about spies, and especialy pe's.
Take away 10 PSI from a PE, and through it in int , tbh
Give Spy's a extra 15 psi, only thing is, what to take it from, possibly int, althought might mess up alot of setups ^^
Take away 10 PSI from a PE, and through it in int , tbh
Give Spy's a extra 15 psi, only thing is, what to take it from, possibly int, althought might mess up alot of setups ^^
rofl thats the worst thing ive ever heard.
It would literally, switch the spy and PE around in the scale of highest to lowest defense.
I can forsee the spy becoming really overpowered for some reason, the amount of offense for lower defense should be in the same ratio scale as every other char, and I really dont think it is.
I don't mind there being a bigger difference between spies and PEs, but there isn't enough stuff to split between them as it is. More strategic items = winnar
Bugs Gunny
22-03-06, 12:48
I feel bad for Dirus, he has to read through all this total and utter crap every day.....
All these threads have shown me is how little most people playing know about the game.
Dirus, DON'T listen to anyone on these threads. Start listening after everything is changed YOUR way, then see the results on the server.
So true that it's sad. Hardly anyone is thinking through the consequences of their ideas, and few have any point to them at all. People to listen to are: FN, bugs gunny, cmaster, DJ sometimes and perhaps one or two that I've missed out.
Listen to me about MC/HC PEs (since they're fine anyway - there's not much to say), that's if KK aren't removing the MC option from PEs :(
[edit]
Don't listen to a lot of the other babblecrap I talk, I'll end up making someones eyes bleed.
Dribble Joy
22-03-06, 15:32
"Lets make PE's and Spies diffrent" and all the actual ideas make them similar. People say "Lets make pe's more of an all arounder" while wanting more and more possable pe roles removed. Am i the only one seeing this?
I'm not sure I saw in the threads where KK go the ideas the put forward in the update. Some of the things must have been picked up at complete random from one post from some nutter.
That said, gleaning off a general consensus is going to be hard.
Though PEs are an allrounder, I don't really look at them like that, I think of them that are as specialised as the other classes, but draw their overall strengths from all areas.
Not being able to reach the higher levels of any area is going to (by default) keep them out of cirtain roles.
What we need to think about is not what they can't/shouldn't do, but what they can do.
The problem of course is that if you give a class a specific role, you start making them a necessity for cirtain situations (PPUs, hackers in HN at OPs).
- Allrounder role: No longer accurate – should be restored
- Solo player role: Works well – should be upheld
- Difference between PE and Spy too small – should be changed
Very true, my main feeling on this is make them more or less opposites combat wise, one (SPY) more about the offense, the other (PE) more about defense. It's already slightly that way but needs to be focused more imho. The vast majority of this can be doing by equipment rebalance, without touching the main stats tbh.
- Current state: STR 60 / DEX 80 / CON 65 / INT 60 / PSI 35
- More STR at the cost of DEX and CON
- More PSI at the cost of DEX (also CON or INT)
- More INT at the costof DEX (also CON or PSI)
Agree with DJ here leave them be, its been that way forever leave it that way and rebalanced the gear.
- Remove Assassin (Spy-only)
- Remove Berserker
- Introduce Combat Medic (PPU PE)
- Enhance the possibilities as Engineer
All this depends on just how much effect your professions really has, atm its just starting equipment and a jones mission. Keep in mind if you make it a major effect your going to need to let the current chars change their profession, because in nc1 it didn't matter at all...
- Overpowered: PE + Xbow – Xbow should only be available to the Spy
Could care less about this one, tbh the fact that only certain class types have a woc item at all tells you how unpolished the entire WoC system is, fix the system. Perhaps make the WoC items profession dependent...
- Limit PE to low and medium techlevel weapons, no rares
NO! Why would you make a char that had no chance of ever using any kind of rare. How about introduce rares that have requirements in line with your new PE philosophy, or adjust the current ones to fit that. NO CLASS SHOULD BE WITHOUT SOME KIND OF RARE. Acquisition of things like rares is part of what mmo type games are about. A class without the ability to have one might make it a dead class... Rebalanced the equipment in a manner that puts pes in the low tech arena leaving ht to spys should be good enough.
- Leave the damage output as it is, but instead increase the tank’s damage output
This is a item thing not a class thing. Balance the equipment.
- Remove or severly limit stealth for the PE
The dropping of buffs in a permanent fashion should be more than enough to get rid of stealth whoring perhaps and some shot SI to keep them from rebuffing right away, at least then if they stealth away you know they aren't coming back for quite a bit. I wouldn't be opposed to some kind of visual interference on all stealths tbh.
- Less healing capability, less damage more defense
- Should be unable to cap weapons
- Should not be able to use damage boost
Agree with DJ on all points regarding these.
- Make Resurrection available to PEs again
Sure..
- Limit the amount of drugs that can be active at the same time
Keep drugs in mind while balancing equipment, rebalanced drugs accordingly.
- Stealth could cancel any shelters, deflectors or other buffs (temporarily or for good)
- Rework the ranges of weapons respectively weapon types
- Adjust the clip sizes for pistols
- Johnes items are too strong
Equipment rebalanced, not limited to the PE.
The Private Eye is generally considered „balanced“. However, some combinations (i.e. Xbow, Johnes Stealth Tool) seem too powerful.
Operative word here is seem, it all depends on who you talk to and what your talking about. Stealth in itself is not powerful, the ability to heal while doing it is a problem with the stealth, not the ability to use it. Fix the gear... All in all theres nothing here that can't be solved by look at the equipment determining what they should and should use and adjusting accordingly. Most calling for stat changes are basing it on what equipment is currently set at, the stats are not the problem, the reqs on the equipment are the real problem.
-A
I feel bad for Dirus, he has to read through all this total and utter crap every day.....
All these threads have shown me is how little most people playing know about the game.
Dirus, DON'T listen to anyone on these threads. Start listening after everything is changed YOUR way, then see the results on the server.
agree /sign'd
Comments
Although i do like the -5 from DEX and +5 to STR. this would make you more middle if say a PE wanted to take the roll of a Tank/Heaver Combat.
But that is -25 skillpoints from DEX :\ which is bad... that means a rifle PE would impossible ( i say impossible as in you'll have to sacrifice more )
If all you do is PvP and fight( nothing else i.e. RP ) then thats fine and dont mind less AGL... still would seem like more trouble then it's worth in my eyes, sense i like driving, good run speed, and small recycle skills ( like a good little ground troop ^^ ).
PSI, leave it alone... mostly because PE is a mid class. lil bit of everything. Basic damage boost, shelter and deflect ( i think most ppl want this taken away because they only thinking about PvP ) ...but maybe thats why some ppl want Raise I back but that wouldnt make PPUs very useful :) so I negative on that one.
X-Bow spys only? I think spys just want more power and limit the PE as much as possible... this gone cause problems later.
Well if X-Bow goes spys only... make Ceres Handgun& AK-47 PE's only :) and make the Handgun Akumbo ( dual held guns ) and both extra damage type: piercing, force, and Genotox damage
Which kinda makes sense for how the ammo is made. Call it Genotox but really just poison :) cause that stuff slow you down soooo much and wouldnt be "fair".
Akumbo Pistol holding PE ( every boys little dream yea know :( ) ...now where my shades at... i want to kick in doors and blast holes in b**ches lol
Switching DB over so PEs cant use it would be the only major change i think would be acceptable for the PE.
As i already said in monk thread i think the DB shouldnt be used by PEs, and should cost same mana as a HAB (260) and be very High TL.
Ultimately i think it should be an APU spell.
or/
Giving the PE more STR and reduce the PSI and move the DB up in the TL ladder, or make 3 types of DBs so there is a lower TL one that PEs can use.
On the Skill rework:
+5 to strenght shouldnt be made unless the STR reqs on some tanks weapon are change or unless we want to see PEs using CS/RAV/DEV and some other higher then PoT melee weapons.
Gimping the PE's ability to use the DEX weapons even by 5 skill is a LOT.
And then why allow them to use tank weapons and cut them off from spy weapons ??
save the xbow on pe :angel:
Bugs Gunny
24-03-06, 14:21
Since everything will change, who knows what we'll get. A lot of people leveled up to woc by now and i'm sure they would not be happy puppies if they lost that status symbol.
I do know one thing. The pvp noobs who are now kind of happy something gets done about the overpowered (insert whatever class kills them the most) might be in for a surprise.
Everyone will be a noob concerning setups etc in the first few weeks, but the people who now analysed the whole system and found the ideal combinations will do so again. It will lead to an even larger gap between the skilled and unskilled players in the first 6 months.
Anyone remember early retail horror stories of the select few who went around killing everyone in sight?
DEJA-VU comming up.
Dribble Joy
24-03-06, 14:47
Anyone remember early retail horror stories of the select few who went around killing everyone in sight?
DEJA-VU comming up.
Starkes? :p
Bugs Gunny
24-03-06, 14:53
Yep he's one of the legendary names :-)
I wasn't around then but i heard the stories.
You know, i never got to be in the betas, but i feel i'm given another oportunity with the whole reballancing thing that's going to happen.
Good times to be had i'm sure.
- Overpowered: PE + Xbow – Xbow should only be available to the Spy
I'm sorry but, let's see the difference between spy and pe on this case.
Spy's model with or without PA is smaller than PE's model
(smaller=harder to hit).
Spy's cap the thing way more easier, and have plenty of points
down at agility.
(faster=even more harder to hit)
PE with a capped xbow will have base agility of... 0?
PE with decent resist will have athletics around 50?
Now rip fun out of that... your enemy won't miss one shot on you...
xbow/slasher/exe are all very powerful with damageboost, so is it
xbow's fault that it's powerful on PE's, I rather think it's DB's fault.
WOC in general:
in games when you have to work hard for some item, you are
usually rewarded with better item, not with an item equal to something
you can get alot easier... It is RPG. Someone will be better
Dribble Joy
24-03-06, 18:17
Spy's model with or without PA is smaller than PE's model
(smaller=harder to hit).
Smaller model, same size hitbox, same as with PAs, it's a placebo.
Spy's cap the thing way more easier, and have plenty of points
down at agility.
(faster=even more harder to hit)
Again, speed is a minimal or completely irrelevant part of defence.
WOC in general:
in games when you have to work hard for some item, you are
usually rewarded with better item, not with an item equal to something
you can get alot easier... It is RPG. Someone will be better
NC is different case, being equally playable by casual and 'hardcore' players alike on equal terms. Everyone should be viable at or near cap regardless of how much grinding they have done.
For the record I am not a casual player and have the time to grind.
Yep he's one of the legendary names :-)
I wasn't around then but i heard the stories.
People would be lvling at the bunker and suddenly his name would appear on local. Everyone would be screaming 'OMG Starkes is here!! Run!! AAAARRRGHHHH!!!!', everyone would die horribly.
Poor bloke wasn't really that good at PvP, he just stumbled across a setup and the libby (which was horribly powerful at the time).
I really like MC and HC PEs, and i defintly think a strengh increase could be worth it. 70 str and 70 dex sounds fine, but what about, 75 dex and 75 str? So the PE is 25 points away from the tank and the spy in the main skills but can have acces to the mid weapons, for all HC, MC, RC and PC.
I dont really have an idea of how that is possible, but it could also be cool to see PEs beeing able to do both, mid high end weapons in bith str and dex making a PE quite versatile.
Another interesting idea would to make specalised weapons for the PE with both dex and str. For exemple melee weapons of a raffined or martial style, such as for exemple a rapiers, katanas, claws, (Nunchacks???? :p)... And why not spears??? That could be a very interesting weapon... Having a bigger range than a normal melee weapon (not too much... :p)
For riffles/cannons, what about heavy riffles? or Mortars? Or controlable turrets???
Thats how i see the PE
dex 75
str 75
con 60
intell 60
psi 30
TAKE THE DB AWAY !!!
(make it HAB style and cost 260 mana and be APU)
TAKE THE DB AWAY !!!
(make it HAB style and cost 260 mana and be APU)
whow 260 psi, how about take the normal time to cast and cost as much as a para ( a little over 100) 260 seems a little....over the top.
Heavyporker
25-03-06, 07:06
If you want the PE to be a proper all-rounder, the stats need tweaking.
Bringing PSI up to 40 would go a long way. 45 PSI would be perfect.
Reducing the PE's DEX means the Spy is safe in his supremacy of rifle/pistol ability, but the PE can still be decent at it, PLUS with better PSI, has better defense ( I would think).
More INT (just a tad, say, +5) would mean the PE would easier access to top-end gliders/hovercraft. Plus some concerns over having to spec weaponlore, psi use, *and* whatever INT tradeskill one might consider, would be eased.
I'm sorry, but I don't see any way for the PE to change and come out with a well-defined position (good all-rounder/solo character) without bringing his PSI and INT up and lowering his DEX.
I see everyone getting all excited at the idea of a PE combat medic. That isn't happening without the 45 PSI that lets him access the level 2 PSI implants to use level 2 boosters and come into SIGHT OF (note emphasis on "sight of") the blessed shields and heals.
Switching DB over so PEs cant use it would be the only major change i think would be acceptable for the PE.
I guess I wouldnt mind no DB on PE's but it sure is helpful when no PPU is around and your leveling. I've had to PPU on my PE a few times. Being a Mid type class... it wasnt hard. Wasnt the best but wasnt hard. So I see the balance in that.. as for PvP... I can see its down fall.
Make DB cast time longer? Could help without actually removing its ability from the game/PE's.. I'd hate for it just to be removed period, its to useful in leveling with other char's/players when no PPU is there. But I think most people just thinking about PvP only.
Since everything will change, who knows what we'll get. A lot of people leveled up to woc by now and i'm sure they would not be happy puppies if they lost that status symbol.
haha.yea i did.. they do that i want my money back b/c they just wasted 2 months of my life :P
And yes, i think ppl missing just all around skill... maybe thats why you're being own'd. may have nothing to do with <insert weapon>. :D
- Overpowered: PE + Xbow – Xbow should only be available to the Spy
I'm sorry but, let's see the difference between spy and pe on this case.
...Spy's cap the thing way more easier, and have plenty of points
down at agility...
PE with a capped xbow will have base agility of... 0?
PE with decent resist will have athletics around 50?
lol so tru.. Spy's stronger with x-bow then a PE is. everyone knows that. Not sure why they want or think removing it from PE gone improve anything.. less people with them? Its mostly just the damage boost that gives the advantage. not the gun... good point in saying that because your sure enough right when you think on it.
WOC in general:
in games when you have to work hard for some item, you are
usually rewarded with better item, not with an item equal to something
you can get alot easier... It is RPG. Someone will be better
Yup. Plus ever TL higher gun is stronger then the last. Thats like removing Silent Hunter because its stronger then Lazar Rifle. It takes 260MILLION xp to use the Ion Crossbow... yea.. i think its a lil stronger then a TL100 gun i can get around 30mil xp lol
If the x-bow was a TL it would be around TL135 or a little higher... maybe 5 or 7 tech level points.
Hell thats why we use rares because thier TL is higher then store bought. So yes, stop bitchin about the x-bow... and yes it is probably the Damage Boost.. making the cast time longer should solve this.. could still use it on PE but I doubt a PE could find time using it in PvP then. Problem solved.
p.s. im guessing introduce a higher tech level damage boost that casts faster for the PPU -shrugs-
i just think take take taking aint balancing.. its just making an already weaker at everything class not just weaker but also gimp'd. There's away around things with just taking it away - come on now.
Again, speed is a minimal or completely irrelevant part of defence.
I disagree.. speed is a very relevant part of defence... thats why a player with holy para on them will probably die... you cant move, aiming on you is very easy. we kept our Freezor pistols ready in NC1 lol if im so fast you cant lock in on me or locking in on me drops say 10% ..yes, thats defence
So speed is part of defence... less you one of them ppl that fight it out at MB zone line where you just shoot at each other and zone in and out. Even then 0.1 point more speed could still save your life.
NC is different case, being equally playable by casual and 'hardcore' players alike on equal terms. Everyone should be viable at or near cap regardless of how much grinding they have done.
For the record I am not a casual player and have the time to grind.
I disagree with that also... same thing can be said about rare weapons then. Not everone can get two+ rare weapons in less then a day.. or a week... or spend enough time to get a 5 slot Slasher while the other person still has a 2 slot TL80 Plasma Pistol ( now i doubt they have something that low ) but it is possible.
Point saying... If you have all the rare weapons and most if not all are like 3 slots+ ...you saying you should give that up because someone who doesnt play that much might have one rare weapon( which is possible ) and maybe have 1 or more slots... while all yours are Ultimate modded with 3 types of ammo-types with near 120 stats on all fields... you saying you should give those up because they are stronger then another person's who cant play that much. I mean it would be fair :)... you both would be equal then... but you really want to give up all the stuff you worked for because they cant play that much ?
pissshh yea right. why would i give up my 5 slot ultimate modded slasher cause Billy Joe has 3 kids, a wife and gets own'd by me because all he's had time for so far was to make a 1 slot judge that stats majorly suck. :wtf: step aside son
now x-bow does take a long time to get... they could make that a lil easer so even Billy Joe can maybe get one without fuckin up his family life lol
I really like MC and HC PEs, and i defintly think a strengh increase could be worth it. 70 str and 70 dex sounds fine, but what about, 75 dex and 75 str?
For riffles/cannons, what about heavy riffles? or Mortars? Or controlable turrets???
Thats how i see the PE
dex 75
str 75
con 60
intell 60
psi 30
I think you're a H-C/M-C crazy PE but I respect tha balance. Somehow i think you're mainly focus on making PE's l33t tanks but I dont know lol
boi i wrote tons of shyt :)
Dribble Joy
25-03-06, 15:00
I disagree.. speed is a very relevant part of defence... thats why a player with holy para on them will probably die... you cant move, aiming on you is very easy. we kept our Freezor pistols ready in NC1 lol if im so fast you cant lock in on me or locking in on me drops say 10% ..yes, thats defence
So speed is part of defence... less you one of them ppl that fight it out at MB zone line where you just shoot at each other and zone in and out. Even then 0.1 point more speed could still save your life.
Speed only helps you if the people you are playing against are of low or average skill, anyone else and it won't help you.
We need to consider balance both at perfect levels of skill and also skill levels below it. For the former speed does not help at all, anyone with decent skill will tell you it doesn't matter how fast you are or how you move, they will hit you. For the latter, we have to ensure that the differences between speed between the classes are small, otherwise, though at high/perfect skill levels there's no issue, they will be an imbalance.
I disagree with that also... same thing can be said about rare weapons then. Not everone can get two+ rare weapons in less then a day.. or a week... or spend enough time to get a 5 slot Slasher while the other person still has a 2 slot TL80 Plasma Pistol ( now i doubt they have something that low ) but it is possible.
Point saying... If you have all the rare weapons and most if not all are like 3 slots+ ...you saying you should give that up because someone who doesnt play that much might have one rare weapon( which is possible ) and maybe have 1 or more slots... while all yours are Ultimate modded with 3 types of ammo-types with near 120 stats on all fields... you saying you should give those up because they are stronger then another person's who cant play that much. I mean it would be fair :)... you both would be equal then... but you really want to give up all the stuff you worked for because they cant play that much ?
pissshh yea right. why would i give up my 5 slot ultimate modded slasher cause Billy Joe has 3 kids, a wife and gets own'd by me because all he's had time for so far was to make a 1 slot judge that stats majorly suck. :wtf: step aside son
now x-bow does take a long time to get... they could make that a lil easer so even Billy Joe can maybe get one without fuckin up his family life lol
NC is nothing like WoW, a week to cap a PE with casual play?
It's easy to get cash, it's easy to get your hands on a playable rare.
NCs grind factor is nothing, and one of it's biggest draws, clearly it's still an mmorpg and not CS, but rewarding people simply because of how much they have leveled in a cave for hours and hours, with items that offer them a considerable advantage is against what NC is about.
KK have said that WOC shall not be a necessity, and I hope it stays that way.
Id like to see the PE brought more to a JOAT standing (skills need to be move but im not sure to where) but from this they'd get a class based weapon system with PE requirements - things like long range mini cannons which would require both rifle and heavy combat at lower levels than the pure versions but still packing almost the same damage and speed of their pure forms would be an interesting concept as it means for the PE not having the ability to reach high end cannons or rifle has an alternative that neither the tank nor spy can get to since they have one skill (HC or Rifle) high enough but cant achive the other.
Rifle/Cannon Hybrids - Reasonably high long range damage with slower firing rate.
Pistol/Rifle hybrids - faster hitting lower damage at a longer possible range.
Something along those lines.
Heavyporker
26-03-06, 18:15
fuck that.
I want new equipment, dammit. More weapons will just futz things up, especially since KK is thinking of adding more DEX to gentanks.
Like jetpacks. Or more vehicles, with specialized roles. Like freaking watercraft, dammit.
The key would be to hit that magic spot for PEs: 40-50 INT reqs, 60-70 STR reqs.
That would absolutely lock out most spies, gentanks, and psi monks.
See? Don't bother with these hateful, dumbass "class-only" restrictions. Employ requirements that make sense and effectively places the item out of reach of normally-specced classes. Keep the reqs somewhat in reach of oddball characters.
Playing a monk-pilot was fun, dammit! And having a rhino-gunning gentank made so much sense. And admit it, it was interesting to play a melee Spy.
Thanatos/Dirus, are we talking about ballancing or an entirely new and different game, I wonder?
I am worrying that we must agree on expanding/ballancing the current game rather than all ths freetalks, that freak out those loyal to neocron. If one applies all those ideas that we've seen so far, then the new game must not even carry the "neocron" logo. I think you guys need to frame a bit the area in which "we" can move
Dribble Joy
27-03-06, 06:09
I think we are discussing how to make NC more like it should have been, not the mess t is now.
Going back to basics (:p) and reorganising things rather than endless tweaks that just try to patch serious problems.
I think we are discussing how to make NC more like it should have been, not the mess t is now.
Going back to basics (:p) and reorganising things rather than endless tweaks that just try to patch serious problems.
Jetpacks, submarines, Exotic psi use and heal tools is how neocron should have been? You are discussing for another game.
The nerf of the holy heal radically changed the way op wars are done. I say lets try nerfing the holy para as well and do some netcode fixing for netlag/clippings and we are done, or at least test it
Apocalypsox
27-03-06, 07:48
i want a flying submarine. giant Glider thing, that can land in the water and then submerge. Island cities and water mobs 4tw tbh!
Bugs Gunny
27-03-06, 08:01
I agree with Jini. With the holy heal nerf you see more tanks, spies and pes at opwars now.
People are using bombers and vehicles more too (you know a bomber is absolutely terrifying now).
I have no real opinion about the changes, as it all has to be seen and tested first, but i do know it's a hell of a big risk.
If the post test server patches on retail turn out bad, then pops will go below critical.
A lot of people seem to be leaving the game allready because of the changes, and it's not just monks.
They should have made a hotfix for tl3 straight away,
They should have made a hotfix for tl3 straight away,
They should have buffed medkits, and told everyone to use them instead. People are too fixed on this stupid idea of psi = defence. Psi should be a far smaller component of the game to most people than it is now.
Bugs Gunny
27-03-06, 13:19
Amen to that.
I remember comming into this game expecting a scifi cyberpunk game and then i noticed how people were healing with some kind of magic, it has allways felt a bit "odd" to me.
But anyway, it's not realy how it's done, be it an instaheal machine with limited uses or an over time magical heal. In fact i'd prefer the instaheal over the over time heal.
Never really seen this as Cyberpunk, just doesn't really have the feel for it whatsoever.
Moved from PE Proposition 3 thread. Outlines ideas for new PE roles from the gameplay changes:
Things I'd like to see - PEs being able to go in new directions, as well as their current one.
The PPU PE - using rez, and some of the level 2 buffs (heal perhaps, primes, probably not shelter - we'd have to see) along with say pistols (or indeed weapon of their choice). Their psi boosting imps would mean they couln't use very high level weapons at all, or struggle to cap them, but they would fulfill a role we don't have yet - a combination supporter-fighter. Provided their psi doesn't make them too tough (I'll bang on yet again about making defensive psi a less critical part of defence) it would be a fun role, and mean that people could be a supporter (leading to more teamplay) but still capable of doing things on their own.
The sponge PE - bumps up con to do tank-like damage sponging, but uses his psi to try and keep himself alive better on his own. Damage output is less than that of a tank, but has better solo options. Going to lose effecgtiveness if joins a group with a supporter though.
The techy PE - rather than pumping up weapon skills to the max, this guy uses reaosnable TL weapons but then pulls out the stops with spy nanites to boost himself into a good fighter.
And on top of these, we have our familiar HC, MC, PC and RC basic PEs - they don't get so much access to the other classes toys, instead choosing to use and cap higher TL weapons instead. Naturally, all the roles I have just mentioned could make use of any of these weapon sets.
I vote for insta rezz like BF2's medics :p
Bugs Gunny
10-04-06, 18:31
I vote for shocker pads with the animation to go with it, you have to kneel and stay kneeled without moving to use them, sparks of electricity will radiate from the target so people can see what is going on (like the current rez).
how bout remove psi from tanks spies and pes; give them a "medicine" skill that uses those nano thingies proposed in other threads of which acts faster than psi stuff and longer duration but lower heal/buffage rate. then people wont have to bring ppus along if at all cuz every class can do the heal buffage thing. or perhaps remove the psi skill from nonmonkies then have psi buffs placed on a nonmonk have a larger malus than when placed on a monk?
Apocalypsox
11-04-06, 08:16
harhar i can see it now...spies running around in makeshift blue blankets poking people with a nano-pokey-tool thing and everyone having yellow bubbles above their head.
fuck that.
I want new equipment, dammit. More weapons will just futz things up, especially since KK is thinking of adding more DEX to gentanks.
Like jetpacks. Or more vehicles, with specialized roles.
we're not allowed jetpacks as theyre too scifi, so jump packs ;)
Don't bother with these hateful, dumbass "class-only" restrictions. Employ requirements that make sense and effectively places the item out of reach of normally-specced classes. Keep the reqs somewhat in reach of oddball characters.
Playing a monk-pilot was fun, dammit! And having a rhino-gunning gentank made so much sense. And admit it, it was interesting to play a melee Spy.
i agree to a point, i dont want class restrictions id rather profession style restrictions, or bonuses to professions (less stick more carrot)
Things I'd like to see - PEs being able to go in new directions, as well as their current one.
The PPU PE - using rez, and some of the level 2 buffs (heal perhaps, primes, probably not shelter - we'd have to see) along with say pistols (or indeed weapon of their choice). Their psi boosting imps would mean they couln't use very high level weapons at all, or struggle to cap them, but they would fulfill a role we don't have yet - a combination supporter-fighter. Provided their psi doesn't make them too tough (I'll bang on yet again about making defensive psi a less critical part of defence) it would be a fun role, and mean that people could be a supporter (leading to more teamplay) but still capable of doing things on their own.
The sponge PE - bumps up con to do tank-like damage sponging, but uses his psi to try and keep himself alive better on his own. Damage output is less than that of a tank, but has better solo options. Going to lose effecgtiveness if joins a group with a supporter though.
The techy PE - rather than pumping up weapon skills to the max, this guy uses reaosnable TL weapons but then pull