View Full Version : Current Discussion Topics: Classes and Professions
The first area up for discussion is the general Class Roles. In these discussions we will mainly focus on the class roles themselves, and on their professions.
Professions will start playing a more important role in the development of your character. At first only items will deal with the professions themselves, afterwards profession only missions etcetera will follow.
The main reasons for the push the focus towards professions on top of classes is to allow more versatility in game, and to help give us a better handle on maintaining balance in game. While at first adding profession restrictions to items may seem like more of a limiting factor since certain items will no longer be useable by anyone. They do allow us to offer more freedom in the bonuses we can give to these items as we can better control which items we allow to be used with other items.
Currently only the main Class roles have been listed, with their available professions and some limited deeper profession information in some cases. We will get deeper into the discussion dealing with the differences between the professions overtime.
For now the topics of discussion are the Main Skills, the Professions, and the offensive and defensive capabilities of the classes. Weapon & Item discussion is to be withheld unless it is on the note of XX class should use Y weapons and Z items primarily when they are and YY Profession. Subskill discussion should follow the same rule.
Examples:
GenTanks should be high defense, and use Melee weapons with moderate damage when theyre a berserker.
Berserkers should be medium speed, and focus more on movement and health/resistance skills then anything else.
The one thing about the four groups is they have the same caps on Speed.
- The Spy should have the highest speed cap all-around, and the lowest END loss.
- The Tank should have the second highest speed cap, except when carrying H-C Weapons, where it should be just above the Monk's Speed.
- The PE should be the middle ground (as always).
- The Monk should have the lowest speed out of all of the classes to compensate it's extreme ease of use with teams, although the END loss should be somewhat near the PE's.
I'm suggesting all around that the weight system while carrying things be changed to buff Melees while running, and nerf H-C while running. That way, it seems like you are actually carrying an 80 something pound weapon on your shoulder instead of carrying a featherweight pillow around.
One concern I have with the locking down of certain things to a given profession ...
Will there be some sort of mechanism to change a character's nominal profession to match what they are actually set up for currently ?
Back in the deep mists of history, at the start of NC1 retail, my primary spy character started off as a Scientist.
I haven't actually *played* it as a scientist for over 3 years - I've been pure combat `Assassin`.
I'd be mighty pissed (for example's sake) if one day I logged in to find that I couldn't use a vital item in my assassin's setup/equipment because of an arbitrary profession name chosen 3 and a half years ago when it had sod all meaningful effect on anything except starter equipment that you threw away within 10 levels anyway.
;)
One concern I have with the locking down of certain things to a given profession ...
Will there be some sort of mechanism to change a character's nominal profession to match what they are actually set up for currently ?
Back in the deep mists of history, at the start of NC1 retail, my primary spy character started off as a Scientist.
I haven't actually *played* it as a scientist for over 3 years - I've been pure combat `Assassin`.
I'd be mighty pissed (for example's sake) if one day I logged in to find that I couldn't use a vital item in my assassin's setup/equipment because of an arbitrary profession name chosen 3 and a half years ago when it had sod all meaningful effect on anything except starter equipment that you threw away within 10 levels anyway.
;)
Was going to raise this too...
Locking too profession = bad. If people were allowed to change profession though, guess thats ok...
Profession changes would be allowed in a similar way to faction changes, tho most likely not as time consuming/costly, and if anything mission based in the desired profession.
As for an auto system that would assign a new profession, that might not work with alot of people's current characters i.e. those who research and construct at the same time. It's probably easier to just allow free profession changes to players for a set amount of time.
For the most part profession restrictions would only be used on certain items.
For example when it comes to PSI Monk Professions, Holy PPU spells would be for Field Medics, while Holy APU is for Inquisitors. We all know that allowing one single person to use those two at the same time is by far unbalanced. The upside of using professions to restrict items in this way is that it allows us to loosen up the tight grip currently in place on skill bonuses such as increasing stats like the mana pool that were put in place to try and help prevent the use of those two lines at the same time.
However currently the use of Professions in this way is still under debate.
Edit: I would also like to stress that people read the first post in this thread specifically the part about what information I'm looking for, and what discussions I'm not interested in.
The topics are what you want out of the class and or profession. In example What would you like to see a Private Eye Assassin be able to do? They are not about discussing issues like whether or not "rifles are pointless" or "your role for the spy doesn't fit because were one of the slower classes". The whole point is to see what direction we should take the classes, once we have that direction, then we can work on fixing it so rifles are not pointless or spies are the fastest.
by introducing professions, we introduce in fact yet another parameter in the system with the potential to create a chaos once again. if you have revised a gross plan on what to expect then please tell us what it is so we can coment on that.
I wanted a more controllale system with fewer parameters, in which for instance speed would have been equal to all. instead, we now discussing on a system with more options and more restrictions.
You think, that current player base is sufficient for yet more specialisation in the game?
What I, would like to see more in the future are changes like the following:
1. WE dump apus and ppus, but make hybrid monks only instead
2. WE revitalize the rest of the classes keeping the roles they had when you introduced them. Spies make good use of gadgets and intelligence and can also pvp, but in this case they forget their gadgets. Tanks lack psi for healing, but have super duper weapons and other equipment like vehicles, turret manning and such. PEs can be the basis for ballancing, the jack of all trades but still a very difficult char to play since he needs both psi for healing and buffs and guns for attacking. Hybrids are still with us, ballanced for ease of aiming at the cost of no gadgets/or any machine handling in any way
Ballancing can be done in the form of: Offence/Defence/Machinery(gadgets)
I have more details in each char type in the threads bellow
Edit: If we can all agree in some General guidlines Thanatos/Dirus, then we can better work the specifics. In my opinion we need to decide the primary roles first and then jump into posts saying: pes should not be able to use slasher or tanks should dump psi and the like
What do you guys think? How would you like to see the future of Monks/Tanks/PEs/Spies ?
Well, I didn't really follow the evolution of the balance ideas around the forums, my opinion is, whatever is going to be done for each class, that every type of every class should be able to be good at fightning someone without drugs.
I don't know if it's a real good idea but deleting the drugs which adds levels would make it really easier for you guys to re-balance the whole class system. Just replace them by other drugs that would give more ATL/HLT or whatever, but finding a good system with those drugs is gonna be hard.
dirus, will we take the chance of that re-balancing situation and
lower all (player and mobs) weapon damage by 50%?
this way we make way for exciting new weapons, which we all crave for.
I'm suggesting all around that the weight system while carrying things be changed to buff Melees while running, and nerf H-C while running. That way, it seems like you are actually carrying an 80 something pound weapon on your shoulder instead of carrying a featherweight pillow around.
I guess you dont play a hc tank? -25 athletics from PA, and run speed is seriously nerf'd when your weapons out, infact most of the time people run off and heal before i can put my weapon away, catch up and get it out again
Dribble Joy
18-03-06, 19:01
What I, would like to see more in the future are changes like the following:
1. WE dump apus and ppus, but make hybrid monks only instead
2. WE revitalize the rest of the classes keeping the roles they had when you introduced them. Spies make good use of gadgets and intelligence and can also pvp, but in this case they forget their gadgets. Tanks lack psi for healing, but have super duper weapons and other equipment like vehicles, turret manning and such. PEs can be the basis for ballancing, the jack of all trades but still a very difficult char to play since he needs both psi for healing and buffs and guns for attacking. Hybrids are still with us, ballanced for ease of aiming at the cost of no gadgets/or any machine handling in any way
Ballancing can be done in the form of: Offence/Defence/Machinery(gadgets)
I have more details in each char type in the threads bellow
Edit: If we can all agree in some General guidlines Thanatos/Dirus, then we can better work the specifics. In my opinion we need to decide the primary roles first and then jump into posts saying: pes should not be able to use slasher or tanks should dump psi and the like
What do you guys think? How would you like to see the future of Monks/Tanks/PEs/Spies ?
We have to avoid 'Class X should be like this because it should do' and think about balance foremost. All classes need a heal (heal + medkits is an issue though) for solo work.
As to proffession item restrictions, remember that it's often the mid level items that cause issues, not the top ones. Blessed spells and possibly the haz/heat1.
Making only Hybrid Monks will make the game a serious monkfest, since they are now a class that can be played by one person. I think Hybrids should be seriously nerfed beyond repair. Really, we need a Medic class as well, such as off of the Spy, which helps out Tanks, PEs and other spies much more better than a PPU can. That would be nice.
Imper1um out
We have to avoid 'Class X should be like this because it should do' and think about balance foremost. All classes need a heal (heal + medkits is an issue though) for solo work.
As to proffession item restrictions, remember that it's often the mid level items that cause issues, not the top ones. Blessed spells and possibly the haz/heat1.
We need to set some fundamental rules first of, or we will carry on and on with small ideas, that fixes small issues or bandaids exactly what we have now that is. As for the NO apu, I have retreated from this idea, in the monk thread. APUs and Hybrids with up to blessed spells, ONLY selfcasting allowed to avoid the ppu gankfest
Each will be responsible for healing self and skill will only stay in the form of shooting/dodging. If you want to bring an apu in the field and have great power fine, but its him who will drop first, so its again based on skill. Own skill, not the ppu's skill to hit with a HH
Jini - got to disagree with you there. Getting rid of PPUs so its all personal skill is daft. There shouldbe a call for real teamwork in the game.
Hell-demon
19-03-06, 16:19
I think if people are able to switch proffessions, why bother implementing profession restrictions?
Just keep things how they are. This game needs more freeform and have less people specialising.
I dont think Jini's idea are focused on RP but seemly pure PvP. Just guessing but as for the switch and set job classes. thats not unheard of... most RPGs work that way and this is a RPG.
But nothing wrong with a lil PvP... if it was a pure PvP game like say Halo, UT etc.. yea i'd say cut the PPU. make one class of monk etc... thats why im thinkin Jini is only thinking on the PvP. Im not sure though
I think if people are able to switch proffessions, why bother implementing profession restrictions?
so that you can't use say HH and HL at the same time.
Also RE speed, here is how I picture it.
Spy: Fastest
Monk: Almost as fast as a spy with no pa, PA makes you the same speed as a PE.
PE: see above, not a big differance from monk speed.
Tank: slightly slower than monks/PEs
Reasons for this:
Spys are made to be hit and run, with low defence and only high dmg/stealth to rely on they need speed.
Monks: Also low defence:apu they need speed to have any chance, a slow glass cannon is a dead one.
Perhaps make s/d slow you down to componsate so that PPUs are not super fast and apu/ppu teams arre not super fast.
PEs: More defence than apus, but still fairly fast to make up for not super dmg and not super defence. Same lvl of speed as hybrids (if you are going with s/d slow you down than pes have same speed base as monks, but will be slower than apus due to having s/d on.)
Tanks: PE lvl with no weapon out making a melee tank still fairly fast, with weapon out hc tank remains slowest class, the reason for this is the tank is supposed to take dmg using his huge resists and does not need speed the way the other classes do. Due to the high resiliance of tanks para would have a very very reduced effect on them and would last an extra short time.
Jini - got to disagree with you there. Getting rid of PPUs so its all personal skill is daft. There shouldbe a call for real teamwork in the game.
Teamwork will still be here with us Cmaster, as in terms of more focused shooting. Wehn you have a ballanced game with no surprises, you can focus doing some real teamwork and strategy as well. Skill will emerge and skillfull players wil have the edge they deserve, but will also be in the target of everyone, therefore the first to get killed. You just dont have that now.
And yes, im speaking for pvp. That's the reason NC is a niche: its pvp features. RP can easily be workde by Dirus and kk staff, provided they have the time and imagination to create new stuff for fun and RP. You can then roll a non combat character to have a pause from continuous shooting
Edit: btw, I have retreated from the idea of dumping apus (apus Not ppus). In the offense<>defense scheme, like Dirus said it must be the option of the runner to choose how offensive or defensive he should be according to his skills, but as I also said in the other sticky, we MUST promote skill versus autoplay as well. It's not as easy playing a PE as playing a Tank
And yes, im speaking for pvp. That's the reason NC is a niche: its pvp features.
It's not as easy playing a PE as playing a Tank
A few things, first of all, I disagree about ppus, taking them away will require less teamwork, sure you can still focus fire on 1 target, but it won't be that big of a deal if you don't.
Second of all where are you getting this crap about PEs taking more skill to play than tanks? And whats your Point?
First of all I disagree, just because you have ppu spells in your QB doesn't mean it takes more skill, imo PEs aiming is much less hard than tanks and your gun does not slow you down. I also think its funny that somone who is lobbying for no ppus plays the combat class with the most ppu skill.
Really, how the hunt for balance should be is that you need a good balanced team. APUs should have all their spells on the Shelter side of things. No Deflection type spells should be anymore for APUs. Instead, more Tanks should have more Deflection type spells. Also, Deflector and Shelter should have a shelf absorption. It can only absorb x damage at y% rate, with max z seconds if no damage is taken.
So, basically, there would be a little different stats associated with it:
1. The Maximum Seconds that the Shield can last.
2. The Damage taken per second.
3. The Amount of Damage required to remove 1 second off of the shield
4. The percentage of damage that the shield absorbs from a blow
So, basically, there would be four different stats:
For example, a Sample Shield can absorb up to 100 damage for every second left on the shield. The shield lasts 10 seconds, maximum. The shield also absorbs 25% of the damage from a single blow.
So, in this perspective, when the shield is 1 second old, 900 more damage can be taken. If the shield absorbs 100 damage, the shield has 1 less second left to survive.
That way, it makes it so that the shield is more realistic than anything else.
A few things, first of all, I disagree about ppus, taking them away will require less teamwork, sure you can still focus fire on 1 target, but it won't be that big of a deal if you don't.
Well like it or not, ppus can send offence/defense equation to hell. So we must eliminate them. If we still have them, then with all the ballancing we will get they wont be TheGods anymore and none will play them
Second of all where are you getting this crap about PEs taking more skill to play than tanks? And whats your Point?
ok if it is too hard for you ill break it to pieces:
the tank: Gun out and wosh-wosh-wosh (CS)
the pe: drug1+haz1+spy1+pc1+S+D THEN gun out and pew-pew-DB-pew- heal-drugflash (Judge) :D Got it now?
First of all I disagree, just because you have ppu spells in your QB doesn't mean it takes more skill, imo PEs aiming is much less hard than tanks and your gun does not slow you down. I also think its funny that somone who is lobbying for no ppus plays the combat class with the most ppu skill.
yes well you disagree for disagreeing without presenting any arguments.
The combat class with the most ppu skills is the hybrid, and ppu spells are here to COMPLIMENT what the tank has by DEFAULT
ok if it is too hard for you ill break it to pieces:
the tank: Gun out and wosh-wosh-wosh (CS)
the pe: drug1+haz1+spy1+pc1+S+D THEN gun out and pew-pew-DB-pew- heal-drugflash (Judge) Got it now?
Ita takes more skills to win as a tank then as a pe i think
Ita takes more skills to win as a tank then as a pe i think
It is harder to win in a duel as a tank (a pe) but its more difficult to play the pe. As I have said, skill is with a pe, all the tank has to do is pull a cannon out and aim. The pe needs the same but at the same time he needs his spells to survive. The tank doesnt need that. Some tanks don't even use heal.
Things are like this and its right. Complication in a PE is 2-3x more than a tank. Complication leads to skill, and if we want to reward skill then a PE wins in 1-1 duels. On the other hand, who is more usefull in OP fights? (before the sexbow era that is :D)
Just for the record - if anything, I belive a tank should have the middleground in speed, these guys are genetically enhanced, the ceres wars were'nt fought by a bunch of hobbling misfits.
Speaking purely from a "As things stand" viewpoint, the tanks slow speed is the single biggest killer. In conjunction with tiny clip sizes, and it's safety-shelled little brother, the PE. The Tank is simply an easier target, who can take at most2 or 3 shots more than a PE.
He cannot deal a reasonable amount of damage due to clip size. I propose that either clip sizes are looked at, to make a slower damage dealer, or speed malus removed from weapons, to make him competetive in combat, as opposed to a sitting duck, who puts out next to nothing.
There is no point in having high resists, a big health pool etc, if you are so slow, that the other players just have to move behind you to win.
It is harder to win in a duel as a tank (a pe) but its more difficult to play the pe. As I have said, skill is with a pe, all the tank has to do is pull a cannon out and aim. The pe needs the same but at the same time he needs his spells to survive. The tank doesnt need that. Some tanks don't even use heal.
Things are like this and its right. Complication in a PE is 2-3x more than a tank. Complication leads to skill, and if we want to reward skill then a PE wins in 1-1 duels. On the other hand, who is more usefull in OP fights? (before the sexbow era that is :D)
Sorry, I disagree wholeheartedly, having played both classes.
There we go another one disagrees and is also sorry .... how come there is no point in big health pools and uber resists? then make a tank having NO health at all. Have you ever faught RexCondo ? Have you ever faught UPSA?
I have already mentioned to lift the weapons speed malus for ALL classes.
As for the rest, there are also rifle pes or we totally forget about them?
Poor arguments of the past has led the game in what we have now...
There we go another one disagrees and is also sorry .... how come there is no point in big health pools and uber resists? then make a tank having NO health at all. Have you ever faught RexCondo ? Have you ever faught UPSA?
I have already mentioned to lift the weapons speed malus for ALL classes.
As for the rest, there are also rifle pes or we totally forget about them?
Poor arguments of the past has led the game in what we have now...
Yes - But when you state the rex condo issue - it has nothing to do with Balance. Rex is Good, damn good if you want, but balance assumes we are all Damn good.
Having played the game to death, I stand by my opinions. Poor arguments are all we will ever get, no two people will agree, and It'll be a cold, cold day in hell if we ever unanimously agree on anything.
It's differences of opinions like mine and yours which kinda puts a damper on any kind of balancing forums, we both want different things, and see it from different perspectives.
Notice how I never said you were wrong. ;)
Reduce the total Skill cap to 290; removing:
Monks 5 DEX & 5 CON
PE's 5 DEX and 5 CON
Spies - Not sure.
Tanks - 10 PSI and do the medkit thing
No need to add (especially not to > 100) other skills.
[QUOTE=Spermy]Just for the record - if anything, I belive a tank should have the middleground in speed, these guys are genetically enhanced, the ceres wars were'nt fought by a bunch of hobbling misfits.
Speaking purely from a "As things stand" viewpoint, the tanks slow speed is the single biggest killer. In conjunction with tiny clip sizes, and it's safety-shelled little brother, the PE. The Tank is simply an easier target, who can take at most2 or 3 shots more than a PE.
He cannot deal a reasonable amount of damage due to clip size. I propose that either clip sizes are looked at, to make a slower damage dealer, or speed malus removed from weapons, to make him competetive in combat, as opposed to a sitting duck, who puts out next to nothing.
There is no point in having high resists, a big health pool etc, if you are so slow, that the other players just have to move behind you to win.
have to agree with you spremy.
Yes - But when you state the rex condo issue - it has nothing to do with Balance. Rex is Good, damn good if you want, but balance assumes we are all Damn good.
Having played the game to death, I stand by my opinions. Poor arguments are all we will ever get, no two people will agree, and It'll be a cold, cold day in hell if we ever unanimously agree on anything.
It's differences of opinions like mine and yours which kinda puts a damper on any kind of balancing forums, we both want different things, and see it from different perspectives.
Notice how I never said you were wrong. ;)
Rex is a very good tank, because he knows how to aim and move. He already has powerfull weapons(he uses a CS). So, all thats left for his character to win in a duel situation, which if I remember correct is all Rex likes is just how to put his skill to work. Skill in a tank is all about Aim and Dodging. If I'm not carefull 100% in a duel situation with Rex, Rex will kill me guaranteed. However I do agree that when I'm fully buffed and use the xbow I win. But the difference is very little and the effort for a xbow is very big, or was...
For me, there are just not good tanks anymore. Anyone (but rex and couple more tanks) has jumped the monk bandwagon or have made a melee tank. Try dueling smurfis some time and you will see what a tank can do in the hands of someone who aims.
I'm certain it wasn't Dirus's idea -maybe I'm wrong- but playing a PE even a crossbow PE, IS NOT the easiest thing to do. In my opinion, skill must prevail and give a bonus (not a lot) to those that pursue hard to play characters and help them win in a duel. Not by much, something in the +5% - 10% range
Tanks HC or melee, Apu monks, and to some extent combat spies have it very easy. They even rely on ppus for their defenses or they just dont use but the very basic psi stuff. All that's left is shoot shoot shoot. Compare that to a PE who not only has to shoot, but also use psi at the same time
RogerRamjet
23-03-06, 08:54
Some tanks are naturally fast.
You know those people you see flying past you in grav lifts? Those have to (apparently) spec less points to reach a certain speed, and apparently my tank has it, as do some others.
Some tanks are naturally fast.
You know those people you see flying past you in grav lifts? Those have to (apparently) spec less points to reach a certain speed, and apparently my tank has it, as do some others.How to be a good Tank: Create new Tanks till you get a character thats buggy or activate vsync? :angel:
While I agree that being a good tank is all about aiming and dodging, I don't think that PEs need more "skill". Sure, you have to buff up to fight. But so do tanks that want to get the last out of their skillpoints. And it's not that hard to cycle through your spells and click mouse1. And for the drugs.. well, my tank takes 3 drugs. And thats without Nightspider for faster casting. To the Tanks that don't use heals: Your dumb. With good resists two or three heals will give you about 33%-50% more health, depends on the enemys aiming.
PE doesn't need more skill to play. In fact, I think PE is easier to play (in duells that is). Sure, as a Tank you dont have to keep SD up, but a duell usually doesn't last longer than 30secs, and SD are castet fast (longest I ever had was against another Tank, about 2 minutes, don't ask...).
Bugs Gunny
23-03-06, 09:40
Well in duels, hybrids and pes are king.
But you can't compare duels to the real world pvp out there.
In that case pes and spies are rather hard to play, since you have to have an internal clock watching your buffs etc, most pes can't shoot their gun without their rifle or pistolbuff on, drugflashes, timing on sd, nibheals etc...
The role of the PE, and particular the crossbow PE that we see in modern opfights is hell of a lot more complex than that of a tank or an apu. Hell of a lot means 2-3x more
DBs, nibheals, nibshelters, shooting, healing self, watching own psistuff, watching drugs are what makes a good op PE.
Some people think the crossbow makes the op PE, but thats the worst illusion. Im using my xbow for some 70-80% of the whole time in an real op war
Oh and btw, I don't get ppu buffs in op wars. I'm totally on my own, maybe except some prime buffing in the start of a war. But thats it.
So, do your comparisons now
The role of the PE, and particular the crossbow PE that we see in modern opfights is hell of a lot more complex than that of a tank or an apu. Hell of a lot means 2-3x more
DBs, nibheals, nibshelters, shooting, healing self, watching own psistuff, watching drugs are what makes a good op PE.
Some people think the crossbow makes the op PE, but thats the worst illusion. Im using my xbow for some 70-80% of the whole time in an real op war
Oh and btw, I don't get ppu buffs in op wars. I'm totally on my own, maybe except some prime buffing in the start of a war. But thats it.
So, do your comparisons now
any class could be that way or not, I could make a no drug pe setup for an op war and say that makes them easy. No class in this game is really harder than others (though a pure apu in an op doesn't have to do too much)
For instance on my hyb in an op, I am watching my primes, becaues if they go down I can't use hab, I am dbing, I am antibuffing, I am nibsheltering, I am nibhealing, I am healing myself. and I have to watch for drugflash since I use white flash to compansate for using pa in an op.
Basicly my point is depending on your setup it can be complicated to play any char, I could make a hyb tank setup that needed drugs and his primes in order to use all his weapoins, in an op I would then have to worry about, primes, nib healing, paraing (thunderstorm), and doing dmg in cordination with everyone else. So a char is only as complicated as you are willing to make it.
any class could be that way or not, I could make a no drug pe setup for an op war and say that makes them easy. No class in this game is really harder than others (though a pure apu in an op doesn't have to do too much)
You think so huh? well here is how I prioritize them:
PPU----------------PE-hyrid--spy----tank---apu
For instance on my hyb in an op, I am watching my primes, becaues if they go down I can't use hab, I am dbing, I am antibuffing, I am nibsheltering, I am nibhealing, I am healing myself. and I have to watch for drugflash since I use white flash to compansate for using pa in an op.
So, you follow my reasoning :confused: :confused:
Basicly my point is depending on your setup it can be complicated to play any char, I could make a hyb tank setup that needed drugs and his primes in order to use all his weapoins, in an op I would then have to worry about, primes, nib healing, paraing (thunderstorm), and doing dmg in cordination with everyone else. So a char is only as complicated as you are willing to make it.
now you contradict yourself "...(though a pure apu in an op doesn't have to do too much)" :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
Unless...
aaah, you mean about that hard to use, slow shooting, VERY mana depending, and hard to runcast thunderbolt? :p :p
Bugs Gunny
23-03-06, 16:57
Jini, next opwar, can i be the dedicated freezer pistol user? :D
I'm not in the mood for a lot of reading so I'm sorry if someone else meantioned this already, only really a simple thing but it seems in line with what you want.
It really gets on my nerves that monks who are "supposed" to be physically challenged can run as fast as my melee tank (low-tech, pure agl - something like 140 agility and 80 athletics).
There needs to be a major difference in speed, spies and melee users (pe's can do it too) need to be the fastest, then pe's and hc tanks, then monks. The difference being as big as say the top ends can walk as fast as monks can run. Oh and instead of making everyone slower and leaving spies/melee's at the current speedcap, increase the speedcap, make neocron faster! (unless the netcode really can't handle it - like the hacknet issue).
You think so huh? well here is how I prioritize them:
PPU----------------PE-hyrid--spy----tank---apu
So, you follow my reasoning :confused: :confused:
now you contradict yourself "...(though a pure apu in an op doesn't have to do too much)" :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
Unless...
aaah, you mean about that hard to use, slow shooting, VERY mana depending, and hard to runcast thunderbolt? :p :p
I am not controdicting myself, I am saying that PEs are not harder to play than ALL other classes, all classes besides a pure apu can have a very complex lvl of play depending on what you decide to do.
And a solo pure apu takes skill because fighting with one is so infrogiving, in an op war with a ppu this is neutralized and so its not hard to play an apu with a ppu.
kierz...with the current netcode theres tons of clippage already...up the speed and the clippage gets even worse. I really like your idea but it just can't be done without an overhaul. Hopefully they're working on it:)
Just for the record - if anything, I belive a tank should have the middleground in speed, these guys are genetically enhanced, the ceres wars were'nt fought by a bunch of hobbling misfits.
Speaking purely from a "As things stand" viewpoint, the tanks slow speed is the single biggest killer. In conjunction with tiny clip sizes, and it's safety-shelled little brother, the PE. The Tank is simply an easier target, who can take at most2 or 3 shots more than a PE.
He cannot deal a reasonable amount of damage due to clip size. I propose that either clip sizes are looked at, to make a slower damage dealer, or speed malus removed from weapons, to make him competetive in combat, as opposed to a sitting duck, who puts out next to nothing.
There is no point in having high resists, a big health pool etc, if you are so slow, that the other players just have to move behind you to win.
Sorry, I disagree wholeheartedly, having played both classes.
To many posts, not gunna quote them all but I disagree with the speed problem with tanks. Speed would be a non issue if their resists were on par with intention of the class. Your HC tank should have the best resist possible, with the Melee tanks and PPU to follow. The ppus should be utilized to get up to the buff levels the tanks can reach, not surpass them, with buffs on less fortunate con leveled classes receiving less of a benefit. Some type of soft cap in resists should be out there that can be achieved with armor plus proper spec for a tank. If a ppu casts on the tank that soft cap should not be able to be surpassed. Damage output of everything (mobs/players) should be balanced accordingly.
So then in one v one tanks can hang with their medium damage output and midrange (to low speed in the case of HC) just fine as they will have the better resist and health pool. In OP combat all a tank worries about is getting an occasional heal and possibly a melee or hc combat booster from PPU, thats it. No reason to give them sd and all that cause hes got cap resists anyways. If that was the case the speed issue would not be a thing, point and fact if range and speed worked correctly a hc tank would be more like a rotating turret of some kind, hard to take out and if you get within the range which is further than say pistols but less than rifles you get messed up. btw I think PSI range should be some ware around the same range as HC weapons no more, that way apu has the high damage outpu but would still need to be in range for the tanks.
Some might argue that this would make the tank over powered, but pay attention to what the class is and described as. They should hurt, one v oneing a tank at close range should be hard. Based on this kind of resist system, you would haft to do the hit and run thing on the tank in order to take him out or be at extreme range with say a rifle spy, or gank him two on one, suicide bomb (yeah lets get some suicide bombing spys to really get that whole TG terrorist thing going the right way) or something of that ilk. Tanks should be feared on the battle field more so than any other class, because that what they do, kill stuff.
Damage Output highest to lowest:
APU Rifle Spy Pistol Spy Melee Tank - (HC Tank / Droner Spy) - (Rifle PE, Pistol PE, HC PE)
Solo defense ( damage absorbtion with armor ) ability:
HC Tank Melee Tank PPU - PE's All Pistol SPY Rifle SPY - ( Droner SPY / APU )
PPU Buffed defense (Tanks having the top anyways with proper spec so they are not listed):
PPU PE's - Pistol SPY Rifle SPY - ( APU / Droner SPY )
Hitpoint pool with proper spec:
Melee Tank HC Tank PE's Pistol SPY Rifle SPY Monks Droner SPY
Speed:
(Rifle Spy / Pistol SPY) - Melee Tank PE's HC Tank Monks Droner ( all those drones b heavy )
Yeah something like that.... Before droners start to whine realize you dont need most of those things as if a drone dies you just launch another one (and yes I do have couple droners). Give them sommore hideing options like holo-vest that looks like rocks and stuff, but still give off a hitbox like a runner.
To many posts, not gunna quote them all but I disagree with the speed problem with tanks.
For fucks sake! It's like fighting with para! I can PvP, and I can win, I pretty much exclusively play a HC tank, and have for years. Tanks are too slow. Step behind them, or even graze thier legs and I don't give a toss what the resists are, that tank ain't got a chance. If he can't move around, and hit you while you lot move at twice his speed, he's got no chance. It's going to take you 2 or 3 shots more because of his health, but those are fucking easy shots.
Speed would be a non issue if their resists were on par with intention of the class.
See above - a target that cannot dodge will take more damage than a target that can on average. A tank that cannot move to get a re-lock will not kill an opponent before they kill him. The speed is a severe disadvantage, we need to be slower yes, but not this slow.
Your HC tank should have the best resist possible, with the Melee tanks and PPU to follow. The ppus should be utilized to get up to the buff levels the tanks can reach, not surpass them, with buffs on less fortunate con leveled classes receiving less of a benefit.
Don't ever bring a PPU into the equation, the moment a PPU comes into it, as is, any argument to do with stats/resists/polkadots is null, as a PPU will max anyones resists, and the Heals would outdo the damage for the most part.
Some type of soft cap in resists should be out there that can be achieved with armor plus proper spec for a tank. If a ppu casts on the tank that soft cap should not be able to be surpassed. Damage output of everything (mobs/players) should be balanced accordingly.
Agree.
So then in one v one tanks can hang with their medium damage output and midrange (to low speed in the case of HC) just fine as they will have the better resist and health pool.
Once again - see my rant on speed vs tanking ability.
Apologies for the rant :p I feel strongly on teh tank speed issue - everything else (even clip size/reload), is fine! As for the rest of the post - some excellent points and can't disagree for the most part. No flames intended, just a passionate rant.
heh I understand the frustration (HC is alot of fun but the disadvantages currently outweigh the advantages), but I think thats where the balance comes in tbh. PE might be faster, so might the spy, but if tanks resists/hp were where they should be you might have a different opinion. Also For good damage there must be some kind of disadvantage, take the rifle spy for instance, lots of damage from insane range, but the down side is can't take hits very well at all. The rifle might be going after the tank, in comes the pe with his lower damage output but decent resists and a ok speed to hunt (new profession Hunter ;) ) the rifler down while the tank deals with the whatever else is going on. Everyones role is clearly defined. Its important to have a clear vision of what each class needs to be able to do, and in a team scenario what they are expected to do.
Speed is the logical choice for tanks because it makes logical sense giving the weight of the weapons he carries. With his stronger, way more than now, resists I think you might see it differently. Imagine your tank without any kind of buff has the same resists as a current PPU fully buffed and capped, plus come kind of stimpack leaded healing injector gadget that takes the place of the heal, say load it with 15 injections (this owns the current 3 stack of medi's ). Now put that in perspective with what you would be fighting, do you think that speed is really going to make a huge difference? Its hard to see when your playing it now the way it is, rather than how it will be with the roles of each class being more or less fixed.
If not speed then where do you put the tanks disadvantage in? Certainly not resist, thats the problem right now. Healing? Come on its a tank they should be able to handle serious damage. So where? Speed is the only thing that comes to mind to be honest that wont truly effect their role as the primary fighter class.
As for PPU's the thing is as it is right now your right PPU's bring everyone up to the top but if you follow my outline, you'll note that even with ppu buffs they're going to be lower overall than a tanks natural ability. No more we all cap resist with ppu buffs. The effect of the ppu buff should be easily tied directly to the con of the target so while the resists are better it does not actually change the overall balance, more just prolongs things like op combat and helps setups that need help, giving that all important room for error you need to help people acclimate to a game as complicated as nc.
Not everyone is going to have the perfect setup right off the ppu helps to fill that void, without actually changing the overall balanced order of the game. See how I have the PPU and the non PPU separated, notice they didnt change the order is still the same just things are higher now, so the over all gameplay in team situations is prolonged as well this will help leveling wise. PPU would no longer be the win button per sey unless your team has a ppu and the other doesn't, then there would be a bit of an advantage. Notice though that the tanks would be unaffected in either scenario, it really matters not if they have a PPU or not all. In all combat situations they are ready to go, which I think is as it should be.
Back on the larger topic I would like to see different combat classes with different associated gear, as an example the above mentioned theoretical hunter. Perhaps specialty armor that provides slightly better resist to say energy with lower to forces and pierce as his role is mainly to trackdown and waste long range riflers, and likely they will be using the tc rifles for their damage output.
The rifler, say assassin profession, on the other hand might be wise to have more Kevlar based armor thats decent at force and pierce but no all that good on the energy side, to counter the mainly lowtech wielding hunter.
In the end they should be on somewhat level playing ground while still maintaining the basic pecking order already devised. Over all there would be no way for either to go beyond the soft caps associated with their con, meaning there would not be one true setup that is always 100% effective regardless of the scenario for either class.
-A
Synchronize
24-03-06, 09:22
...
Tanks should be feared on the battle field more so than any other class, because that what they do, kill stuff.
...
Speed:
(Rifle Spy / Pistol SPY) - Melee Tank PE's HC Tank Monks Droner ( all those drones b heavy )
I read every day the Balance Thread, and don't write because i don't think I'm a "good" player (more than 3 years and never cap a caractere :p )
Since i agree with you're analyze they are something i don't agree (and from other post also)
Tank must be the prime warrior because that what they are made for.
But every time the Melee tank is slower than spy (or Psy/PE)
But how a melee tank can kill other player if he is slower than them ?
In your example the SPY rifle/pistol is faster than a melee tank, so if you are a melee you never kill him, (just run away), and the spy can also stealth.
So if I'm a spy, i shoot at distance, run a bit (or stealth a bit) re-shoot etc. and never have a scrap except if the tank surprise me.
Just to don't being flame I'm not a tank lover, i just play one to learn how tank can be play, but I'm a really bad tank player (worth than with other class :lol: ).
And forget my bad english, it's not my prime language.
Bugs Gunny
24-03-06, 09:55
Spies are not faster than melee tanks. It's because they run back and forth and some melee tanks stop to chop now and then becuase the lag makes it seem like the spy is standing still for a sec
I read every day the Balance Thread, and don't write because i don't think I'm a "good" player (more than 3 years and never cap a caractere :p )
Since i agree with you're analyze they are something i don't agree (and from other post also)
Tank must be the prime warrior because that what they are made for.
But every time the Melee tank is slower than spy (or Psy/PE)
But how a melee tank can kill other player if he is slower than them ?
In your example the SPY rifle/pistol is faster than a melee tank, so if you are a melee you never kill him, (just run away), and the spy can also stealth.
So if I'm a spy, i shoot at distance, run a bit (or stealth a bit) re-shoot etc. and never have a scrap except if the tank surprise me.
Just to don't being flame I'm not a tank lover, i just play one to learn how tank can be play, but I'm a really bad tank player (worth than with other class :lol: ).
And forget my bad english, it's not my prime language.
I suppose it depends on the situation, while your rifle spy should have a speed advantage it should not be huge one over the melee tank, and we're talking optimal spec here as well. You also have to take into account the frail nature of the spy as its supposed to be, a melee tank should chew them up in not very long in direct confrontation. Rifle spys should be more of a hit and run type thing one v one tbh. Somehow the equipment spec would require melee tanks armor or implants that provied some speed enhancement to allow them to play with the fasties without actually changing the workup of the class itself.
As for the pistoler, if he wants to take out a melee tank hes going to have to remain close(provided range is corrected). And the melee should be fast enough to stay in range if they are dueling.
Ideally though the melee tank and HC tanks should be dealing with other tanks and HC and MC PE's while the Pistol/Rilfe PE's and Rifle/Pistol SPY's duke it out...
I emphasize again my strong belief that he SPY and PE should be more of opposite playstyle type classes. With spys having more emphasis offense with less defense to make up for it and pes more on defense with less output damage to make up for that. With there secondary roles being something like spys being the primary tradeskillers and PE's being the poor mans PPU, Medium level infantry ( HC and Melee PE's) Drivers Spyhunters that kinda thing. Part of balance would be to ensure each class / profession has a effective counter class / profession. I think we'd see a lot more variety out there, although there will probably be many fotm builds where everyone thinks the assassin is the leet profession for a week, heh at least until enough people start rolling the counter to the class that is....
-A
Synchronize
25-03-06, 20:59
Personaly i dont play to be the best one Roxor (certainly because I cant be the best :p but when you are old as I you'll certainly learn that you learn slower :rolleyes: )
If every one play for the fun and for the class, the balance thread would never have meaning, I personallly think that classes are different so they are unbalance but i dont play to be balanced, i play for fun.
Actualy majority of player (and i'm not one) think that the problem is balancing classes vs classes in PvP without thinking of RPG or PvM
If you are a sniper and snipe someone (realy snipe : 1000m or more) you dont need resistance or health because the sniping one normaly would be death before having time to deal any damage to you.
BUT if you use a Pot, and since it's a game you need a chance !
the probleme is: that taking of the quikness out of the balance is a bit strange, if you can flee, or move freely when someone have to stay relatively prone, you change the balance of the game, just saying it's damage output vs damage capability is a real short sight (sorry for people who dont agree)
Sure, a bad player with lot's of speed will lost vs a good one with little speed, but same skill player will find lot's of way to uses speed to counter the fact they are weaker.
Like i love to say i'm not a great player (nore a good one :) ) but if i'm quicker than an other i have more choice (and perkison is long away for me i hope :lol: )
Hopping you understand my meanings but it's a bit hard for a rusty one like me to explain her filling in an foreign language
I say NC patches back to how it was before evo 2....
People pvp for a reason and the player base is only getting smaller.
It's already diverse, a good tank can easily kill a hyb monk or pe or spy.
As a good spy can kill a tank, hyb monk, or pe with ease.
The PE is the average class and you want to make him just another class like the rest.
Before evo it took more brain power and thinking of okay, I go here, they go here and I'll corner them and they will drop. If they heal and run, you got a quick kill cause most run a straight line.
Now what these balances are going to do is make pvp stat and class based instead of challenging your mind to outsmart and out manuver a high skilled class in a certain area.
90% of monks.. .Can't aim for their life. They over compensate for a quick moving player and end up zoning. If theres a huge fight sure the monk can aim, they just spam the fire button on everyone and hope they dont kill a friend.
__
I say before you "fix" anything to do with skills and classes.
Fix server lag, sync time, and general bugs. It's not to hard, just requires a little effort and maybe working late.
I would like to talk about the berserker class, in comparaison between the PE and the Tank.
I definitly think that the Berserker class should stay acceccible for PE. We are only a few out there using it, but its quite fun to play one. It combines the thrill of buffing yourslef, healing, dbing, and off course slashing.
If you compare the Melee Pe with the Melee Tank, it seems that the PE would need a bit of an additional boost. Either by lowering slighlty the TLs of the weapons or by slightly raising the strenght of the PE.
Too me the berserker should be resistant and powerful. The question is, how can you differenciate the PE and the Tank both as berserks? I would make the difference as follow. The tank should obviously more resistant and powerfull as the PE, but the PE should be able to be quicker that the tank, but less powerfull. There is already some subtle differences since a Berserk PE DBs on the field.
Another interesting aspect would be that the PE is smarter than the Tank and thus should use this advantage. i personaly already do since all my Int points go in PSU. But i see something different in there... Maybe something looking like a blink tool or a speed tool for the berserker PE, making him suddenly quicker for a short amount of time. ((Beeing suddenly able to rush on a APU that he sees from far, or to blink in combat to disorientate his opponents!))
somethintg must be made regarding WOC
ADD specific WOC stuff for each class
a WOC implant, WOC armor, WOC buff ....
but please stop adding weapons that make too much damage
Don't think they should change the characters in game, they are not overpowered, people who call them overpowered just need to do something about there skills, No character is GOD against all other chars, everyone got 1 Weak point, what is the point of giving everybody 5 weak points, people will drop quick, people will hate that, and leave Neocron, A lot already left because of this stupid idea's, the only thing thats overpowered in the game are some weapons. Just fix the weapons and things will be good again, Like don't let PE use the Woc Xbow, just add an other woc item for them, make a woc item for all classes, restricted to there class. we are still waiting for woc items for H-C and Melee tanks, for years now. Fix those things first, and let the character be what they are. and the ppu's atm, are useless, even to hunt with them they are useless. Nerfed the spells the wrong way, ok its true the spells for ppu are to good on other chars, so just nerfe them when casting on other people, and leave it that powerfull when you cast it on yourself. PPU should not be killed that easy. if you nerfe the spells, then make there Soul Cluster 5x stronger in ressist, and 2 times stronger in attack.
thats my opinion about this. and im not the only 1. The changes i see you want to bring in neocron will only make it worse. Stop planting those idea's here and make people crazy, just work on it and make a test server for it, don't tell anyone till its finished, let people play and ask there Opinion.
or just make a hole new game, issn't that much easier then what you guy's are doing now?
I was thinking to pay for 6 months again, but when i saw this forum, it realy made me think about paying for 6 months. also why do we got 4 servers? its not that we just get 200 new players or such, combine them into 2 servers. 1 german 1 english, maybe thats an idea to start with? so there will be more action on the servers.
Greets from just 1 stupid gamer in neocron.
and don't hate me, just my opinion. don't take everything to serious
Something that is more profession based but still an important point is why is there no tradeskill power armor? I know the "end game" is pvp/op battles, but if you just like having a +260 constructor or resser, why can there be power armor for them? Most high level traders wear spy pa anyway (for looks), but how much of a problem would it be to add constructor/resser pa with smaller imp/rec/rep/barter bonuses? Maybe even driver pa? There is a large tradeskiller community and they matter too; nc is not just about pvp.
Classes and professions, there is a want to combine classes and professions together so that the
profession allows the character access to special things and keeps the player wanting to stay with the
profession he chose.
there is already a notion to add a Nanite heal tool (or Nanite Trauma Repair Tool - NTRT), and to remove
PSI from both Spys and Tanks.
So how do we impliment Profession effects/changes to classes?
well the other night i had a brain fart, so be warned, and this does make the assumption that all the
weapons will be scaled properly and balanced.
At the moment there are 5 main stats: INT, STR, CON, DEX, PSI. and every class has 300 points distributed
between these stats.
what i would propose is to add a sixth main stat, TEK/TECH, or Technical Afinnity, this stat will have a
Cap of 60.
PSI monks would not be able to access this stat, as they already have PSI, Spies and Tanks would have
access to this and would lose their PSI stat, where as PE's would be able to use both Tek and PSI, to
vairying degrees.
In Tek a few skills from other trees would go into here, these are;
Tech Combat
Repair
Willpower
and maybe 1 or 2 more like hacking etc.
And add a new stat
First Aid/Nanite Repair
this stat is the stat that allows you access to the Nanite Trauma Repair Tools, and just like the PPU stat
it affects the amount that the tool will heal.
As each class, bar the PE has two main stats:
Spies = Int and Dex
Tanks = Str and Con
Monks = Int and Psi
PE's however have 3 Main stats: Con, Int and Dex (i recognise HC PE's and MC Pe's but ill cover that in a
few.)
now if we take the basis for 6 Stats, INT, STR, CON, DEX, PSI and TEK, each class bar the PE will have 300
points that is distributed over 5 stats, the PE however will have 300 points distributed over 6 stats.
If we say however that the core stats that a character class has will remain the same, but their secondary
stats will vairy due to profession, allowing the choice in profession to have an affect on the character
class.
Core stats:
Tank
Con = 100
STR = 100
Total = 200
Spy
INT = 100
DEX = 100
Total = 200
Monk
INT = 100
PSI = 100
Total = 200
PE
INT = 60
CON = 60
DEX = 60 (used to be 80 but for the use of professions and PE's this needs to be reduced to 60, as it will
allow them to capitalise on their ability to access all 6 stats)
Total = 180
Now we come to the Professions, the professions will affect how the characters secondary stats will look,
professions should also have guilds, like the engineers guild (constructors and reserchers) that will allow
you access to your professions equipment and PA's (should allow less populated zones to see its fair share of traffic) and possibly lead on to profession quests for higher rankings (in the same style as the research/cst mission that the citycoms offer)
but anyways, the professions...
The Assassin
PE:
INT = 60
STR = 50
CON = 60
DEX = 80
PSI = 30
TEK = 20
SPY:
INT = 100
STR = 40
CON = 40
DEX = 100
PSI = 0
TEK = 20
The Driver
PE:
INT = 60
STR = 70
CON = 60
DEX = 70
PSI = 0
TEK = 40
SPY:
INT = 100
STR = 40
CON = 20
DEX = 100
PSI = 0
TEK = 40
TANK:
INT = 20
STR = 100
CON = 100
DEX = 60
PSI = 0
TEK = 20
The Engineer
PE:
INT = 70
STR = 50
CON = 60
DEX = 60
PSI = 0
TEK = 60
SPY:
INT = 100
STR = 30
CON = 30
DEX = 100
PSI = 0
TEK = 40
The Field Medic
PE:
INT = 60
STR = 50
CON = 60
DEX = 60
PSI = 35
TEK = 35
PSI Monk:
INT = 100
STR = 20
CON = 45
DEX = 35
PSI = 100
TEK = 0
The Hacker
PE
INT = 70
STR = 40
CON = 60
DEX = 70
PSI = 0
TEK = 60
SPY:
INT = 100
STR = 10
CON = 30
DEX = 100
PSI = 0
TEK = 60
The Infiltrator
PE:
INT = 60
STR = 60
CON = 60
DEX = 70
PSI = 20
TEK = 30
SPY:
INT = 100
STR = 45
CON = 45
DEX = 100
PSI = 0
TEK = 30
The Inquisitor
PSI monk:
INT = 100
STR = 20
CON = 40
DEX = 40
PSI = 100
TEK = 0
The Preacher
PSI monk:
INT = 100
STR = 25
CON = 35
DEX = 40
PSI = 100
TEK = 0
The Rigger
PE:
INT = 80
STR = 40
CON = 40
DEX = 60
PSI = 20
TEK = 60
SPY:
INT = 100
STR = 20
CON = 20
DEX = 100
PSI = 0
TEK = 60
The Scientist
PSI Monk:
INT = 100
STR = 20
CON = 45
DEX = 35
PSI = 100
TEK = 0
SPY:
INT = 100
STR = 40
CON = 40
DEX = 100
PSI = 0
TEK = 20
The Smuggler
PE:
INT = 70
STR = 65
CON = 60
DEX = 70
PSI = 0
TEK = 35
PSI monk:
INT = 100
STR = 30
CON = 40
DEX = 30
PSI = 100
TEK = 0
SPY:
INT = 100
STR = 45
CON = 30
DEX = 100
PSI = 0
TEK = 25
The Soldier
PE:
INT = 60
STR = 70
CON = 60
DEX = 70
PSI = 20
TEK = 20
Tank:
INT = 10
STR = 100
CON = 100
DEX = 70
PSI = 0
TEK = 20
The Beserker
PE:
INT = 60
STR = 80
CON = 70
DEX = 60
PSI = 0
TEK = 30
Tank:
INT = 10
STR = 100
CON = 100
DEX = 60
PSI = 0
TEK = 30
As you can see for the core stats stay relatively the same (exept for a few PE stats) and the secondary stats fluxuate to fit the profession.
this is how i would have professions affecting the character classes.
Freaky Fryd
03-04-06, 00:59
Now THAT'S a man who has been thinking... 8|
I dig it :)
turbineS-line
03-04-06, 01:05
PSI shouldn't be the end-all be-all for recovery. The use of TEK is a damn good idea. Incorporate it entirely into it's own subcat to be specced for. I like the profession/stat merger as well. Overall, I'm down with the TEK idea.
^5 comie, good post.
i forgot to add a bit about the NTRT, this is a blast heal, that heals a set amount of damage instantly, just like the repair tools do to vehicles.
as an example
Basic NTRT would heal 50 points of damage
the Standard NTRT would heal 100 points of damage
and the Advanced NTRT would heal 150 points of damage.
however as the NTRT is fairly traumatic experiance you cant use it in quick succession, other wise the body goes into chemical shock leaving the runner incapacitated (extreme drugs shock).
this would mean that Tek heals would be different from Psi heals (that are HoT's), and would be a bit more balanced as you cant spam them due to drugs flash effects.
The main problem with Comie's idea is what if you want to change professions? What happens to all the current characters ingame? Skill cap adjustments at character creation won't happen.
The same type of thing could be "simulated tho" by gearing implants to setup the main skills to those lines. It's basically what I had in mind when I was workin on the profession system idea. Having lines of items, and implants geared towards the SKills/SubSkills used by that profession. As it is now tho, the profession system is up in the air, and it hasn't been decided if it'll actually happen, tho it's more weighted on not happening currently.
The main problem with Comie's idea is what if you want to change professions? What happens to all the current characters ingame? Skill cap adjustments at character creation won't happen.
i belive every one has stated if you go through with all this character balancing and changes the game will effectively be a new game, i would be very happy to start a new character and pick my profession seriously.
the alternative to this is that you could let people pick their characters profession once all this has been set up and give them a full points release to spend throught their new professions.
as to if people want to change professions? well personally i would have it that if you dont want to follow your professional route, you no longer are that profession and no longer gain the bonuses of that profession, and you just become "unemployed" your stats remain the same, you just cant access your "guilds" special items.
I would like professions to be a serious choice, maybe when you get your Mr Jones mission and have completed it you can change your profession there, but once you've made your choice then your soul belongs to the corperations :p
i belive every one has stated if you go through with all this character balancing and changes the game will effectively be a new game, i would be very happy to start a new character and pick my profession seriously.
Ok, you tell everyone they have to reroll their chars then :p
the alternative to this is that you could let people pick their characters profession once all this has been set up and give them a full points release to spend throught their new professions.
as to if people want to change professions? well personally i would have it that if you dont want to follow your professional route, you no longer are that profession and no longer gain the bonuses of that profession, and you just become "unemployed" your stats remain the same, you just cant access your "guilds" special items.
I would like professions to be a serious choice, maybe when you get your Mr Jones mission and have completed it you can change your profession there, but once you've made your choice then your soul belongs to the corperations :p
Ah so you still want to be able to farm Mr Jones first right? Doesn't that go against your "i would be very happy to start a new character and pick my profession seriously." stance? Hey! I'll play my profession seriously! That is after I get the reward from another Profession :p
Ok, you tell everyone they have to reroll their chars then :p
Ah so you still want to be able to farm Mr Jones first right? Doesn't that go against your "i would be very happy to start a new character and pick my profession seriously." stance? Hey! I'll play my profession seriously! That is after I get the reward from another Profession :p
lol trust you to twist my words, i ment it in a pure and innocent fashon.
but ok how about
Mr Jones: So, you happy being *insert profession here*?
Runner: Yup, its the life for me
Mr Jones: Last chance to change your mind, my employers wouldn't be to happy to see someone they've invested time and money into having a change of heart midway through.
Runner:
Either
Yes im sure
or
Infact, id like to see what life maybe like as *insert other profession here*
if you say yes then Mr jones responce is
Good, heres a little token of our appreciation *gain noobie item*
if you say no then you get the start of the mission for the other profession.
there does that solve the farmability. and i would make those noobie items are Non tradable, RP being that its a precious item and you wouldnt want to part with it... that and your employers would be real insulted.
And yes i would be happy to tell everyone "Its Fresh characters time!!!"
but hey, as my boss would say "you dont know if it'll work unless you give it a go!" try it on the test server with only 1 character class and they have to pick 1 of 4 professions, leave the rest of the game unchanged (imps and regs etc.)
I don't like the idea of the professions being differnt. One of the fun things about this game is its flexibility and the fact that how you spec effects what you can do. Not "Oh, I'm a shaman so I can just use shaman items of my level".
I don't like the idea of the professions being differnt. One of the fun things about this game is its flexibility and the fact that how you spec effects what you can do. Not "Oh, I'm a shaman so I can just use shaman items of my level".
If you had read what I had said about professions you wouldn't be making this post.
I was responding to Comie's idea, not you, Dirus. I read what you said as well...
ok in responce to Dirus' post about changing professions, why not let runners change professions (they keep their original stat template)which should probably involve a quest line.
However as their stats wont be as focussed as say a runner that follwed his profession all the way from creation, they wont be as good at it compaired to those that stuck with their profession that they chose, from the start.
I want there to be difference, one of the games failings is lack of variation.
I would love to see a PE combat medic (as like ive stated in a previous post) running around a battlefield with his white pa on and red crosses on the arm and chest area, healing his buddies and then defending himself with a lowtech rifle.
or a Infiltrator Spy unstealthing behind enemy lines to biodisrupt a PPU in an effort to break the deadlock
or a Soldier Tank that as a last stand activates his Shield device to hold out long enough at an op keeping the enemy at bay while his hacker buddy is trying to break thru an ops security.
the profession items lends itself to a much wider varity to alot of game play styles which NC is lacking.
Nice idea there Comie.
As I said on MSN to you, one thing I like about NC's skill system is it's flexibility to allow to do nearly anything. You can roll a MC Tank if you really wanted, and them LOM him to HC.
But when you change profession, your main stats may be at an disadvantage, or maybe an advantage.
However say you changed your profession, your main stats would all be knocked down to the lowest levels, and you would have to re-level to cap.
So if you changed from Driver to Assassin, and you was a capped Driver, your main stats would be.
INT = 100
STR = 40
CON = 20
DEX = 100
PSI = 0
TEK = 40
So when you change profession, you would drop down to these stats. These are the lowest base values for a spy based on Comie's values. Points would be taken away from random skills so you dont have extra points to spend.
INT = 100
STR = 10
CON = 20
DEX = 100
PSI = 0
TEK = 20
Then you would have to level back upto these levels again.
INT = 100
STR = 40
CON = 40
DEX = 100
PSI = 0
TEK = 20
Of course, the LOM's will have to be used fine tune your points.
Either way brammers would work, my way would mean that you'd be trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, where as your way would have those square edges sanded down
Skill cap adjustments at character creation won't happen.
is that what those mean coders are saying? :(
i remember a time when codi was locked in the cellar with only some watered down soup and some stale bread and was told to code or he wouldnt have the bread next meal time.
besides i dont see why we cant have this, should be easy enough to impliment,
i dont like the idea of stats going over 100 in NC but i accept it as the imps are pushing the body to higher things. but if your trying to do the same thing with implants it would mean that the implants would have to have something like +20 to PSI etc, what is stated above just seems more in keeping with the RPG aspect.
why can i not edit my own posts... its all gibberish i say GIBBERISH!!!
Giev edit buton!
what my post should look like:
Either way Brammers, both would work.
My way would mean that you'd be trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, where as your way would have those square edges sanded down
Skill cap adjustments at character creation won't happen.
Is that what those mean coders are telling you?
curse them!!
I remember a time when poor Codi was locked in the cellar with only some watered down soup and Squeekie, his dead rat... and was told to code, and code fast, otherwise Squeekie would never be seen again.
But now you got him a partner, and it looks like their in control now :p
I dont see why we cant have this, if you even think its a good idea.
Should be easy enough to impliment.
Also, I dont like the idea of stats going over 100 in NC, but i accept it as its the implants that are pushing the bodys limits beyond normal human capacity.
But if your trying to do the same thing with implants it would mean that the implants would have to have something like +20 to INT, and with a 100 INT requirement.
what is stated above just seems more in keeping with the RPG aspect.
*sigh* ahhh grammer, why do you mock me so.
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