View Full Version : Offense, Defense, PPU's & Professions.
Ok, this is my general thoughts on how each of the 4 should go hand in hand.
Keep in mind that any offense/defense %'s, class positions, ect that I give are just rough numbers and are being created off the top of my head purely to demonstrate points when needed. In no way should they be taken for being concrete.
And also that this is just my general overview. I'm still lobbying for the Profession part of this with the office. They like a number of players feel its "too restrictive". I on the other hand view it as needed to help make maintaining balance easier, and to allow those who do want to specialize a way of being rewarded for that, without too many restrictions on those who want to play a Jack of all Trades role within a class.
Now down to business.. And yes there is a method to my madness.. Unfortunately I'm only going to touch base on certain areas without going into much detail. Main reason is that they deal with areas that are going to be dealt with separately over the next few months, so for now I'll try and give enough info on it to help better understand where their roles will be. Otherwise this thread would be 30 pages long..
Offense:
Each of the 4 classes should have a overall spot in the offensive scaling (APU > Spies > Tanks > PE's ect) This would of course be based on the damage scaling of the various weapon types.
When it comes to the weapons I've basically broken the weapons into 23 Categories. This of course will be discussed in more detail once the Weapons part of the Balancing hits the forums. So for now we'll just leave it as is.
Defense:
Each of the 4 classes would have an overall cap on how much defense they can obtain. That includes Armor, Natural Resists, and Buffs. (Tanks > PEs > Spies > Monks) (Within the monks PPU's would be up near or above Tanks, Hybrids would be at PE level, and APU's would be the ones under the Spy.)
Variations within a class would depend on Profession, and the players own personal choices in where they put skill points and the implants ect that they choose. The profession part would largely influence the implant/armor side of things here only.
When it comes to implants/armor themselves, there should be more "class restricted" implants in game as well as profession based implants. My reasoning behind this is 2 fold.. Balance issues, and Role Play issues (This is an RPG first and foremost, FPS is just how the combat side is played, I feel we've lost sight of this too much and have been pushing the FPS side at the cost of the RPG side. This is wrong, the RPG side should influence the ways the FPS side is pushed, not the other way around). This I will get into further when the Armor/Implant side of the balancing takes place, safe to say that the RP side is based on the Genetics of each class, and a code of conduct Professionally.
Defense vs Offense:
When it comes to Defense vs Offense, this is left entirely up to the players. The way I envision it is that within each class there is 3 main builds. Offensive, Defensive, All Arounder. On the Offensive and Defensive there is 2 sub builds, solo build, and team build. For now I'll concentrate on the solo builds. The team builds I'll further explain in the PPU section.· Offensive: This player is setup primarily to deal the most damage. They've purposefully weakened themselves defensively to further this goal. These players are the tried and true killers, they're out for blood, and won't run from a fight, they're more PvP oriented and have the slight upper hand, in PvE they're at a disadvantage.
· Defensive: This player is setup primarily to defend themselves. They're purposefully weakened their offense in favor of more defense. They prefer to avoid PvP since they're at a slight disadvantage, but in PvE they have the upper hand.
· All Arounder: This player has basically set themselves up to do both PvP and PvE effectively. In PvP they have a slight advantage over the Defensive build, but are still under the Offensive players. In PvE the opposite is true.
PPU:
The PPU should be mainly for team oriented players. They should be a buffer to their teammates weaknesses and not their strengths.
Pushing the limits of a player's strengths should be done only on that players part, the PPU should have no effect at all in that area beyond helping to lessen the overall weakening that has come with that push. This of course should not be a 1% to 1% trade. i.e. For ever 2% lost in one area the PPU should only be able to compensate for 1%.
Speccing a character to rely on a PPU should be viable, but it should also mean "death" to that same player if they're caught without one and they come across a player who's decided not to rely on a PPU. I saw "death" figuratively. For all those who lack "skill", the changes a PPU would bring would not help enough for you to take out a player that would beat you 10 outta 10 times if you both played on a character setup the exact same using the exact weapons ect..· Defensive build players: The PPU's effect here should allow these players to further push their their defenses on their own by taking up some of the slack in the player's offensive output.
PvP: Caught without the PPU to boost their offenses, these players would be at a disadvantage to the All Arounders, and would get annihilated by the Offensive. Since the extra defense wouldn't allow them to compensate for their lost offense. The time it would take them to do enough damage to the other 2 would be longer then needed by the other 2 to overcome the defense bonuses.
PvE: The gain in defense would mean that they could withstand stronger mob's easier on their own, but the lack of offense would mean that those same mobs would be better able to withstand anything the player can throw at them. Same as in PvP over time the defense advantage wouldn't make up for the offensive loss.
· Offensive Build Players: The PPU's effect here would be the reverse of the Defensive players. Roughly half the offensive gains made by the player by sacrificing defense would be able to be given back by the PPU.PvP: Caught without a PPU, these players would again be at a disadvantage to Defensive players, and All Arounders. They can dish out more damage, but sticking around long enough for it to have an effect would mean a quick death.
PvE: When it comes to this side of things, The same would also be true. While they would be able to kill a higher then normal NPC in a set amount of time, they wouldn't survive long enough. Even when compared to another Offensive build player but one that’s setup for solo play, they'd have to limit themselves to a lower lvl NPC if they don't want to die.
· All Arounders: The PPU's effect on these chars would be both defensive and offensive. However they still would not bring the player defense or offense to that of the other two. Basically a PPU would just help lessen the gaps but not be allowed to close that gap.
As to what’s meant by the Perma-Shelter. Basically what this means is that a Shelter would no longer be based on "time" like it is currently. But be based on a set amount of damage it will deflect. One that value is reached then the shelter would effectively wear off. i.e. If a shelter currently deflects 70% of all damage over X minutes. The new shelters would work by deflecting 70% of damage up to a max of say 1500dmg.
I'll leave all other discussions about Shelters ect to later when the defense/armor/implants topic is up for discussion.
Professions:
Right now before I get into more details as to what professions would be I’d like to say that, looking at Professions and basing them off current in game issues such as how easy items and skills are to cap, or what class can do what is not the best way to do so. If anything try and concentrate more on what they offer in terms of rewards and the amount of variation between two players. I will be discussing some aspect of weapons and for this you need to ignore any and all issues that deal with them, i.e. the fact that non-rare weapons are nothing compared to rares dmg wise ect these topics will be discussed on their own when the time comes.
After a little thought on the issue, I’ve decided to expand how the professions would play a role, and just what the players would be able to do with those professions.
Profession restrictions would have 2 levels to them. The initial one assigned to the player themselves, and a secondary one that can be gained through the use of an implant or through the use of a flag.
The whole point of professions is 2 fold.
To make them actually play a useful role in game, rather then just something new to be exploited for things such as the Mr. Jones rewards. This would be done in a way to help reward those who do want to Roleplay as a certain profession.
Remember I said earlier that the current trend of limiting RP by not limiting the FPS’s influence on it was not the way to do things. The should balance each other out.
To help create an easier system to balance by way of locking various items from being used by the same person at the same time. i.e. locking the Holy lines from being used together. They’re fine together in a team sense, but one player being able to act as an entire team themselves is not acceptable
As for the 2 level Profession system. This would allow for a more diverse set of choices for the players. They can either take one profession to the top level, or they can take 2 at once but suffer a cap. The cap would most likely be in the rewards given for doing so, and or the items they’d be allowed to use. I’ll give a brief example of what Professions would mean in Combat, and what it would mean in Tradeskills.
·Combat: In this area, You could have the upper end broken into 3 sections. Generic, Professional, and Masters.oGeneric items would be freely useable by all. The bonuses given would not be as large as the other two. Weapon wise, this would mean no use of say Rare weapons.. i.e. any and all pistols except the rares would be in this area. (I do intend to expand the amount of weapons mainly to put more then one gun at a given TL, and I’m looking at adding “non-rares” into the upper end, more on this later tho.)
oProfessional items would give more of a bonus to those who are actually in this profession. Here the bonuses would most likely be stat based only. Ie. This would allow the first set of rares to be used. And the first set of say the Profession PA’s.
oMasters items would be restricted to those who have choosen to go the extra mile, these would allow even more advanced items and bonuses related to the given profession.
Now in terms of dual profession players, the main changes here is that this system would allow things to be set so that say you could be an Inflitrator / Assassin. Having these two would allow you to use the first level of the 2 upper teirs in each side. When it comes to weapons the skills would be set so that both side are viable. Since the upper set would be restricted this wouldn’t cause too many issues balance wise.
It’d would just allow for an easier all around character build without hindering being able to reward those who push just Infiltrator or just Assassin. You’d get some of the range advantage of the Assassin but not nearly as much damage potential, and you’d get some of the armor advantages of an Inflitrator, but not as high.
·Tradeskill: The same 3 sections would be here as well. For this I’ll use the Engineer(Construction) as an example.
oGeneric items would be all tools upto say TL90, as well as a variety of the basic implants designed for this professions field of work. Also your chance at getting slotted items would be as high as they are currently ingame, and the build quality levels would remain the same.
oProfessional would allow the use of the TL120 tools. Basically you’ve decided you want to dedicate yourself enough to this trade that you’re given free access to all tools available. A few more advanced implants would most likely also be opened up with this level. You chances at getting slotted items would be slightly higher then the current rate ingame, and you’d get a chance at a % bonus to the build quality similar to the slot system.
oMasters would open up the top line of items for this profession. In addition you chances at getting slots on items would increase slightly more, and you’d get a set % increase in the build quality of the item along with a chance at adding a further % increase working on the same slot chance system.
There, now that I’ve stated my general overview on how I feel things should stand it’s up to everyone else to decide if they agree with it, or not, and to give general feedback on the whole subject.
RogerRamjet
20-03-06, 00:22
Sounds brilliant in my eyes, only one or two questions.
You say about professions, like the ones you choose straight out of MC5? If there is profession limited items, what if you started as one profession and LOMed to another, would you still be able to use the other profession based items?
(sorry for awful wording).
I forgot to add that part. Basically I'm aware that some people are no longer their starting professions, others have never inteded to be and only chose that profession for the Mr Jones rewards.
There would be a system in place of course to allow people to change their professions at will. I see this most likely done in a quest sense, where you have to fulfil a number of tasks relating to your chosen profession. think of them like job interviews :p
And as suggested by Krysm, in NC this could all take place in the Job Center.
Also in the beginning it most likely be that there is nothing involved in getting the profession changed to allow for players to instantly reset their professions so they can continue to play with their current setups.
PPU:
The PPU should be mainly for team oriented players. They should be a buffer to their teammates weaknesses and not their strengths.
We need to be careful that we dont do what we have now - that those classes with less in the way of weaknesses won't really gain from a PPU. Also, how much do PPUs give in advantage? A little? A lot? Are tehy still going to be essential to do anything or not?
As for a bit of the RP overruling a bit of the PvP. I like the sound of it, but we'll see how it really works out. Erm, have I actually said anything useful yet? I'm still kind of pondering what you have said.
I'm agreeing with Roger, this sounds brilliant and looks to be the way to go as the way it stands it is a bit easy to do a fair few things at once, i do like the sound of the top level tools being restricted to dedicated users in that proffession and finally :p a use for the Job Centre.
As professions will play a bigger role will their be progressive proffesion based tasks to help you skill/learn your profession available as you level up, for example a generic/prefessional/master level quests through your characters life.
Oh and if profession do become a bigger role, can we have some sort of character indication?
e.g.
Tratos Skarn
Hacker
Phoenix Ltd
Fallen Angels
above my head with the profession tag being decided from my first tier profession (going from your model).
Additionaly having more weapons at a single TL sounds really cool allowing more top end variation.
sanityislost
20-03-06, 02:38
Damn that is going to rock, nice one!
SiL ..:..
Dribble Joy
20-03-06, 03:19
The only issue I have (as many people may know) is that Rp considerations must not take absolute president over balance.
We should push RP into the game as far as possible, but we cannot do it so that we end up with horrifically unbalanced classes.
An example is the whole speed is a defence thing, when it really isn't unless you want to make atl affect your armour totals or something.
About the offence/defence thing, I have long said that spies should be the 'dex apus'.
I am slightly concerned that defencive vs all rounder vs offencive should give either of the three an advantage anywhere, be it PvP or PvE. If they are balanced properly, there should not be a difference to their overall effectiveness.
As for allowing only those with PA (or whatever specific path) in order to use higher level weapons, again it seems a little restrictive.
I would prefer that you could not tailor your char for PPU assistance, but that's going to near impossible, so it seems like a good idea that it's taken as a semi-integral part of balancing. We just have to make sure that combat class + ppu = combat class + combat class.
We need to be careful that we dont do what we have now - that those classes with less in the way of weaknesses won't really gain from a PPU. Also, how much do PPUs give in advantage? A little? A lot? Are they still going to be essential to do anything or not?
In terms of the PPU's effects on others this is how I kinda look at it. The defensive abilities of a class would have a cap. i.e. PE's 60% defense ect. Toss a PPU into the mix and the max they should do is say 65%.. Where the real bonus of a PPU would be is towards characters that specificly spec their chars to rely on one. For this we'll say the max a PPU should give is 10%. This would allow a PE for example to spec for 50% on his own, with the PPU's 10% he's now basically back to where he would have been on his own (60%), without his PPU tho, he's at a disadvantage.
Overall, the PPU should allow those who specifcally setup their chars to rely on them a little bit more freedom in their overall skill variety, those who don't may not be able to do as much, but they're not as screwed if they're caught without a PPU. In this way it's either a) more freedom abilities wise but less solo survivability, or not quite as many abilities at once but more solo survivability.
As professions will play a bigger role will their be progressive proffesion based tasks to help you skill/learn your profession available as you level up, for example a generic/prefessional/master level quests through your characters life.
Oh and if profession do become a bigger role, can we have some sort of character indication?
e.g.
Tratos Skarn
Hacker
Phoenix Ltd
Fallen Angels
above my head with the profession tag being decided from my first tier profession (going from your model).
As for how getting professions ect is concerned, that's all still up in the air. For the most I've only been concentrating on what the outcome would be of having those professions, and not really how to get them. I'll leave that aspect of the professions upto the others. Story/Quest/Mission stuff is not really my field, hence the tradeskill missions still having all temp items. I can create the systems, but I'm not a writer :p
The only issue I have (as many people may know) is that Rp considerations must not take absolute president over balance.
We should push RP into the game as far as possible, but we cannot do it so that we end up with horrifically unbalanced classes.
An example is the whole speed is a defence thing, when it really isn't unless you want to make atl affect your armour totals or something.
About the offence/defence thing, I have long said that spies should be the 'dex apus'.
I am slightly concerned that defencive vs all rounder vs offencive should give either of the three an advantage anywhere, be it PvP or PvE. If they are balanced properly, there should not be a difference to their overall effectiveness.
As for allowing only those with PA (or whatever specific path) in order to use higher level weapons, again it seems a little restrictive.
I would prefer that you could not tailor your char for PPU assistance, but that's going to near impossible, so it seems like a good idea that it's taken as a semi-integral part of balancing. We just have to make sure that combat class + ppu = combat class + combat class.
I agree that current "FPS sways everything RP" way of doing things should not be reversed. RP should have a little more sway then combat it's self, but only to the extent of making sure those "fit" RP wise. The idea is to rebalance and do so in a way that makes sense RP wise, if it can't be done RP wise and needs to be done for balance reasons then combat would win, but RP should be considered first.
As for runspeed, or skills like that in general, we're looking at making it so 10 points in ATH on a Spy = say 25 points in ATH as a Tank. Certain classes would be able to skill different things easier then others this would be based on the classes inheirent strengths adn weaknesses.
In the Offensive, vs Defensive, vs All Arounders having a difference in PvP and PvE, I think you missed what I was going for there. I said there was the 3 main ones, and that on top of those, Offensive and Defensive would be allowed to be pushed further, pushing past the points where all 3 are equal is when the balance of Offensive vs Defensive gains for doing so does not balance out. The only time there should be a difference between those in PvP or PvE is when those points are pushed, but as I said those who would push those limits are basically doing so by speccing their chars to rely on a PPU to help offset the higher malus of going beyond the set 3 main builds.
As for higher Profession levels being required to gain the higher "special" weapons ect. It's not at all restrictive, there would be "generic" items at the same level, they just wouldnt give as much at the same level. It's a way of rewarding specilization without locking players into it by completely blocking them out past a certain level. Combat wise anyway Tradeskills are a different matter all together.
As for PPU + Combat Class = Combat Class + Combat Class, Thats basically akin to saying a PPU ups a single char's abilities by 100%. I think the 1 for 1 is a tad too much since basically thats what a APU + PPU team do currently since the PPU can't do much to anyone else damage wise, and they're more or less just boosting an APU to be able to take on a team of players, I do prefer that PPU's really only effect their teammates freedom in setups, and have it so their main strengths are more PvE increases, or for larger scale Op type battles.
Dribble Joy
20-03-06, 04:43
I agree that current "FPS sways everything RP" way of doing things should not be reversed. RP should have a little more sway then combat it's self, but only to the extent of making sure those "fit" RP wise. The idea is to rebalance and do so in a way that makes sense RP wise, if it can't be done RP wise and needs to be done for balance reasons then combat would win, but RP should be considered first.
Never really had a disagreement here anyway.
As for higher Profession levels being required to gain the higher "special" weapons ect. It's not at all restrictive, there would be "generic" items at the same level, they just wouldnt give as much at the same level. It's a way of rewarding specilization without locking players into it by completely blocking them out past a certain level. Combat wise anyway Tradeskills are a different matter all together.
I'll see how this all pans out, but better weapons at the same level seems.... potentialy iffy.
As for PPU + Combat Class = Combat Class + Combat Class, Thats basically akin to saying a PPU ups a single char's abilities by 100%. I think the 1 for 1 is a tad too much since basically thats what a APU + PPU team do currently since the PPU can't do much to anyone else damage wise, and they're more or less just boosting an APU to be able to take on a team of players, I do prefer that PPU's really only effect their teammates freedom in setups, and have it so their main strengths are more PvE increases, or for larger scale Op type battles.
Exactly, though you could argue that PPUs should be able to benefit a team of any size equally, which is going to near impoosible mechanics wise.
It may sound somewhat harsh, but maybe PPUs should be best used/usefull in large team and PvE situations.
A 100% bonus is too much, 2 vs 2 it's ok, but 3 vs 3 suddenly the 3 combat classes on one side are presented with effectively 4 combat classes. As the numbers increase, so does the imbalance.
Again, though it's about the means by which a PPU increases a player by XX% rather than the pure 'theoretical' increase.
perhaps balance it so that a group of 3 fighers+ppu>4 fighters
2 fighers+ppu=3 fighers
and
1 figher+ppu< 2 fighers
I'll see how this all pans out, but better weapons at the same level seems.... potentialy iffy.
Again, though it's about the means by which a PPU increases a player by XX% rather than the pure 'theoretical' increase.
Difference between Generic, Professional, and Masters items would be small, the professional and master items would be at the same TL useability wise as the Generic, say TL50, but their bonuses would be a bit higher, say 1-2TL's higher.
For example with Armors I have a rough outline of Generics every 5 TL's from 1-40, every 10 from then on. Profession stuff wouldnt really show up till that 40 to 130 stretch, and at most the master level stuff would only act like it's say 5TL's higher, so half atmost.
When it comes to weapons, that 5TL gap would work out roughly to a dmg per minute increase of 5 - 6.75 depending on weapon type over the Generic version, so nothing overly major.
In regards to the PPU thats better discussed when we deal with the armor/implants/buff area of the balancing.
As for runspeed, or skills like that in general, we're looking at making it so 10 points in ATH on a Spy = say 25 points in ATH as a Tank. Certain classes would be able to skill different things easier then others this would be based on the classes inheirent strengths adn weaknesses.
I dont think i like the sound of that.
Correct me if im wrong but making so that the tank needs more pts to reach same 'in-game effect' means that having 100 CON is no real advantage, since you need to spec more...
Say a spy can spec 40 points in energy resist and get the same result then a tank that specs 70 ??
I think 10 ATHL TANK > 10 ATHL SPY since the tank has 100 CON ...
One slight Q - will Lom pills be free for a day when this takes place, because dam there is going to be alot of it, Maybe you could Mass-reset Everybody's points ?
is that even possible, heh dirus how sweet would that be, that way players wouldnt lose any XP for having to lom there setups due to the new changed, Lemme know if thats even likly to happen and possibilitys?
Apocalypsox
20-03-06, 07:30
Dirius, does this mean we will have a veriety of new implants, and just maybe some new guns for some/all the rarepools?
and how about lowering the req on ultimate powersuits and putting a master set on them...that way they are actually useable but you have to "go the extra mile" to use them.
/edit
Kame i think 10 ath on a tank should give you less runspeed than on a spy. Spies are ment to be fast, and generally hit and run due to stealth, so should generally be faster than most other classes unless they didnt spec very many points in runspeed.
One slight Q - will Lom pills be free for a day when this takes place, because dam there is going to be alot of it, Maybe you could Mass-reset Everybody's points ?
is that even possible, heh dirus how sweet would that be, that way players wouldnt lose any XP for having to lom there setups due to the new changed, Lemme know if thats even likly to happen and possibilitys?
I second that and for one very good reason, lets say it would take around 4 hours to lom every skill point. and you'd lose say 20 levels (eg: 4 str 4 con etc.), which would take around 6 hours to recover. Now say you have two accounts and 8 capped characters so now we're roughly talking about 80 hours work. Thats a long time to sort out your characters. However if lom pills had no penalties just for a few days then characters could lom everything and spec again sort everythin out and be happy :)
Ok, I am reffering on your General ideas about offence<>defense and ppus.
roughly we have:
apu>spy>tank>pe
offense if you move from left ro right, defense if you move the opposite way.
However we do have two more things as it is right now:
1. the ppu
2. skill using offense modifiers (like DB) which separates apus+tanks+spies from pes
I firmly believe and Im certain that all you guys agree, we all have to promote skill and skilled players and separate them from all others.
As an example, lets take the pe and the apu monk. Since the apu monk cant use ppu spells to buff himself he is a lot easier to be played than a PE that is also relied on psi for defenses and DB for more offense.
In that sense and to promote skill and character(hybrids, PEs) we must give them a reason and that reason is more damage inexpense of skill.
As an example it's not the same in difficulty as tank, having to just pull your gun to start shooting, while as a pe you need to put shelters up, heals up, maybe DB and then shoot.
So, Dirus in offenses <> defenses ratio, we have to add skill as well,or theres just no reason for someone to go play a PE or a hybrid. The more complex you want to play your character, the more you getting an advantage, but the harder it is as well
The ppu.
I still dont see where the ppu will fit after all these supposed changes. We see today an inclination to ppus because they are overpowered and they are able to deliver this power to those they choose. If this benefit is taken away from them, who will want to play a ppu? and for what reason?
The more complex you want to play your character, the more you getting an advantage, but the harder it is as well
So right.
you can maximise a PE setup and totally cap the damage of a first love if you have a rifle combat buff 1.
You fight in a fortress or get PPU buffs and you cap even frequency.
All these little things on a PE like having to have combat buff, removing the PA to get better stats on PPU selfcast PPU spells, using 5 min drugs to be able to take out DEX implants, and on top of it puting a DB and shooting someone in the legs to own him takes a SHITLOAD of skill.
Yet it is possible to do all of it and have success.
The less skill you have the more you take off these little factors.
(i.e. make sure you use a weapon you cap without buff, use more DEX implants to use less drugs, and etc.)
This is why i think that the monk booster should be nerfed ; Its incredibly easy to play a pure monk.
And right now if you have a good team going you godlike.
Sounds like a lot of work...err c ya next year perhaps ^^
One slight Q - will Lom pills be free for a day when this takes place, because dam there is going to be alot of it, Maybe you could Mass-reset Everybody's points ?
is that even possible, heh dirus how sweet would that be, that way players wouldnt lose any XP for having to lom there setups due to the new changed, Lemme know if thats even likly to happen and possibilitys?
No, XP loss and SI will be increased.. Longer.. Slower.. More painful.. Ah the misery.. I love it :D
A complete skill point release is possible, and most likely would be what is done. The poor Neofrag servers after that tho :/ Gonna have people lined up for miles afterwards all wanting in..
Sounds like a lot of work...err c ya next year perhaps ^^
Not really, most of the work would just be in creating the new items, altering the current ones, and working out the stats to go on them.
I'm still waiting for the last 2 months worth of work from KK :lol:
Not to mention huge bugs can happen
[QUOTE=Dirus]No, XP loss and SI will be increased.. Longer.. Slower.. More painful.. Ah the misery.. I love it :D
(Np i didnt only ment for 1 week but ok lol, i dontlom much anyway i just re-role(its less annoying))
A complete skill point release is possible, and most likely would be what is done. The poor Neofrag servers after that tho :/ Gonna have people lined up for miles afterwards all wanting in.. (<-- That is going to be brilliant and wow , good point Test new settings in neofrag :angel: )
[QUOTE]
Brilliant answer for them all, well for me at least :)
I'm still waiting for the last 2 months worth of work from KK :lol:
Not to mention huge bugs can happen
Ah yes, the last 2 months of work. So far all anyone has seen is just one small area. We havent even got into all the other areas yet, just becuase we've only posted so much at this time does not mean we havent actually done more.
We're just not going to shove everything on to the forums at once, that would be chaos and nothing would ever get decided on.
Hell-demon
20-03-06, 13:12
are the player models getting updated too Dirus? :(
Professions - Anyone who has a NC1 character transferred is most likely to be the wrong profession. For example, my main character Brammers is an assassin on the login screen, and skill wise he is setup as a hybrid Engineer/Rigger.
As long as there is a way to change profession, this gives (finally) a good use to professions.
Currently I think I got my character right in balance, to be very effective in drone combat, and excel at construction to give most constructors a run for their money on slots. ;) So if I was to go all out for the master say in Engineering. Would I still be able to hybrid as a Rigger, and still be as effective as I was previously, even if I had to LOM a few points around?
IMHO This is what makes NC good, is the ability to roll you own hybrid in some shape or form. Just to be clear I’m not talking about Hybrid monks here. A while back, one of our PPU’s lommed his setup around to be a PPU rifle user. The fun factor for him was great, if possibly a little overpowered!
The one thing that bothers me slightly is the professions and profession bonuses is this would force players onto pure profession setup, rather than a more fun hybrid setup. Granted isn’t so much a problem on a multi-slot server, except you would have to level 2 characters up. On one slot servers, I believe the profession bonuses would be more of an issue for the hybrid players.
Hell-demon
20-03-06, 13:21
Profession only equipment forces specialisation. What's fun for this game is that how you play is pretty much freeform, do what ya like with your character, have strange skills. You could be a contsructing pe if ya want who knifes people.
Variety is the spice of life.
Especially the weapons % and pvp-viability part sounds good.
But I have some complaints:
Don't make ATH and ATL worth more on different classes. If I have to sacrifice points under con for more speed on my Tank, I want to have more speed. And if I have, lets say 110ATL and 130AGL I run faster than a Spy with 60ATL and 80AGL without a Weapon. The current system with Pistols/Rifles/Heavy/(not Psi :) ) is good in that way.
And I fear that you make the game too linear. For me as a Tank it sounds like you want to make 3 subclasses.
The "Tank" that can take a lot of damage till he goes down,
the "DD" that does good damage but is weaker
and the "Allrounder" that isn't worth shit :D
This already exists in some kind of way. A tank that skills much into resists can't be fast(aiming harder), and therefor can't deal as much damage as a fast tank (aiming easier).
<!-My tank is one of these, my resists are low, compared to other players, but I'm faster.->
A Tank that has low ATL has better resists, but its a bit harder to aim. You just have to make it more obvious(more runspeed bonus with more ATL and more bonus from resists, for example).
I don't want to be pushed into a "Tank" or "DD" role. You would kill the aspect in Neocron that I like most. You can skill what you want and use what you want if you sacrifice the points for it. Don't make it like WoW...
Also I fear that this changes would seriously affect the drugs... (resistsdrugs, Redflash&Whiteflash...)
Don't make Items professionbased. Don't make "skillprefabs" like the Tank or the DD other games have. Don't make it like all the other games.
Don't make NC suck like all the other MMORPGs
Give us more freedom, not more rules. See savezones and overpowered cityguards = no more raiding = less PvP fun = depressed pvpers = allyganking, allybelthacking, wars within a faction, etc.. That's what comes out.
It's boring.
Variety is the spice of life.Variety is the only reason I play Neocron. Specialisation sucks, you already killed my pistol/rifle/conster PE :mad: I don't see no point in having pure rifle and pistol users, wouldn't it be more fun if you could use both? Would it be overpowered? ( it would be only for PSI... ) Now we don't just have to specialise for PvP and one kind of weapon, but also for different subparts of PvP...
I don't have to say that my tank is a hybrid, do I?
Don't forget the german forums, btw :lol: They are complaining already.
Bugs Gunny
20-03-06, 14:08
Kame you don't get it.
It's not the resist points.
I think dirus means that he'll factor in the conlevel as a divider for the actual runspeed.
For instance : (athl+agil)/conlevel
I'm not sure i like that, because a lot of tanks drive a reveler etc too.
What scares me most about the professions is that it'll force more specialisation for tradeskillers.
The whole idea of making nonrares pvp viable is a very interesting one, but then the whole quality cap has to be reviewed too, as currently a tl92 users is no different from a judgeuser due to quality cap.
The whole idea of making nonrares pvp viable is a very interesting one, but then the whole quality cap has to be reviewed too, as currently a tl92 users is no different from a judgeuser due to quality cap.
If you got your TL92 pistol made by a Engineer master, the quality cap would be higher, or put it another way, it would be a little more powerful than a judge. (Assuming that the damage caps don't change)
Now the hard bit will be finding an Engineer master to make that TL92 pistol that gives you that little edge over a judge user.
So what would happen if you gave a judge to be made by a Engineer master? Instead of the stats being random between 105%and 120%, would they also be raised to be between say 120% and 130%? The downside of this, would be the current pool of Judges would become worthless, but this applies to any rare weapon.
Dribble Joy
20-03-06, 15:07
Profession only equipment forces specialisation. What's fun for this game is that how you play is pretty much freeform, do what ya like with your character, have strange skills. You could be a contsructing pe if ya want who knifes people.
Variety is the spice of life.
I think it will be in the area of 'holy level ppu spells for field medics only.', 'holy level apu for inquisitors only.', 'Rare rilfes for assasins only.' and 'Rare pistols for infiltrators only.'
Other things would be availiable to proffessions like what has been mentioned. A PE could use a tl 60 armour, but not a tl60 tank only proffession armour. Branching out to other areas that your char is not intended for is possibly, but you will have a slight dissadvantage.
Hell-demon
20-03-06, 16:29
It just restricts freedom :(
Currently I think I got my character right in balance, to be very effective in drone combat, and excel at construction to give most constructors a run for their money on slots. So if I was to go all out for the master say in Engineering. Would I still be able to hybrid as a Rigger, and still be as effective as I was previously, even if I had to LOM a few points around?
IMHO This is what makes NC good, is the ability to roll you own hybrid in some shape or form. Just to be clear I’m not talking about Hybrid monks here. A while back, one of our PPU’s lommed his setup around to be a PPU rifle user. The fun factor for him was great, if possibly a little overpowered!
The one thing that bothers me slightly is the professions and profession bonuses is this would force players onto pure profession setup, rather than a more fun hybrid setup. Granted isn’t so much a problem on a multi-slot server, except you would have to level 2 characters up. On one slot servers, I believe the profession bonuses would be more of an issue for the hybrid players.
Variety is the only reason I play Neocron. Specialisation sucks, you already killed my pistol/rifle/conster PE I don't see no point in having pure rifle and pistol users, wouldn't it be more fun if you could use both? Would it be overpowered? ( it would be only for PSI... ) Now we don't just have to specialise for PvP and one kind of weapon, but also for different subparts of PvP...
I don't have to say that my tank is a hybrid, do I?
Ok on the Hybrid issue, The goal of the professions is to actual make Hybrids lives easier to a degree. After the item balancing there won't be as much of a difference between the various levels. Nothing like the current rare vs non rare situation. What a profession restriction allows, is better control of who gets what at the top end.
On one hand, we need a way of rewarding those who wish to specialise, currently there is no real way without severly overpowering them or nerfing their sense of reward for doing so. If a player wants to use rifles only for example, why should they not get a slight advantage in the use of them over someone who wants to use both rifles and pistols? Currently this type of issue is solved by making things either harder to cap, forcing one route only, or easier too cap making those who do want to play a single role left feeling they get nothing out of it for their troubles.
For dedicated Role Players, these allow us to say ok, for doing so you get access to this at the first level, and this at the second.
For Hybrids this means we can loosen up the skill needed to be viable in a given area since the upper area would be locked from them so were not worried about them being overpowered.
What info I think you guys are missing in this regard is that just because the "rares" would be locked, doesnt mean you wouldnt be given something as an alternative to use. If theres a "rare" version then there would most likely be a "generic version" as well, only slightly less effective.
For characters like Brammer's who is setup in a Rigger/Engineer function, Basically this means in the Rigger side he'd get access to most of the "Rigger Profession Gear" and when it comes to the Drones themselves if anything he may be to limited to say 170% dmg max on the rares instead of 178% if he went Master Rigger. I explained what the Engineer differences could be earlier on. He'd have a slight advantage over the players who decided not to choose one of these roles as a main profession, but still be at a disadvantage to those who decide they want to take a set profession all the way.
Maybe have it so going Hybrid in a setup like this is beneficial to a degree, where if you're a Professional Rigger, and a Professional Engineer, you'd get the same bonuses a "Master Engineer" would get, but only on Drones. Following the same lines an Inflitrator/Engineer would be as effective when it comes to building Pistols as a "Master Engineer" would. You're more specialized in a specific area. Master Engineers would still gain the advantage of being able to build everything at a "masters level" all at once. This of course would really only work in a "tradeskill/combat hybrid" type setup. As for what a "Combat Type X/Combat Type Y" hybrid would gain. Thats something that could be debated on.
In a sense having a Hybrid char would in someway provide it's own benefits to the player themselves. While not detracting from being able to reward non hybrids too much. This is where PE's as a Engineer would come into play, as they would fit a role of being able to provide GenTanks the same ability to get weapons made for them without needing to rely on a "Master Engineer", they'd just need to find a "Soldier/Engineer PE" to get their Heavy Weapons made, or a "Berserker/Engineer PE" to get their Melee weapons made.
If you got your TL92 pistol made by a Engineer master, the quality cap would be higher, or put it another way, it would be a little more powerful than a judge. (Assuming that the damage caps don't change)
Now the hard bit will be finding an Engineer master to make that TL92 pistol that gives you that little edge over a judge user.
So what would happen if you gave a judge to be made by a Engineer master? Instead of the stats being random between 105%and 120%, would they also be raised to be between say 120% and 130%? The downside of this, would be the current pool of Judges would become worthless, but this applies to any rare weapon.
Rares wouldnt really change in that sense. No 120% > 130% increase. If anything the effect would really only be on the "Generic" items. A Master Engineer would really only benefit a hybrid char using weapons way outside of his 1 or 2 main profession roles. i.e. making life easier for a Pistol/Rifle PE to use Melee as well by creating a "better easier to use" melee weapon for him. The only real benefit the Professional/Master Engineer status would ring to rares is possibly better chances at slots on them ect. Or possibly make it so that only a "professional" or a "master" can even build those weapons to begin with.
Don't forget the german forums, btw They are complaining already.
Thanatos is currently cursing my name, and threatening to ban me from the forums due to all the translation work I created for him :p In the future I'll try and hold off posting info threads such as this till it can be translated into German first and posted at the same time. General Q's related to each thread tho will be answered as they come in.
To the German Community, my apologies, I've been looking into learning German myself so that I can help lessen this type of situation from happening. Hopefully, from never happening.
Speaking of Thanatos.. *Runs away and hides after posting this till Thanatos calms down, from the thought of yet more work..*
Edit: On a closing note I'd like to strengthen the point that the whole Profession thing is still my idea only. Not only am I trying to work it in so that it's appealing to you the players, I'm also trying to do the same with the Office. To a degree they're ok with the use of them to restict some items, but they're still not keen on taking it to the level I'm aiming for.
RogerRamjet
20-03-06, 17:12
Are these new implants going to be epic, tech drop, or just plain mob drop?
For all those who lack "skill", the changes a PPU would bring would not help enough for you to take out a player that would beat you 10 outta 10 times if you both played on a character setup the exact same using the exact weapons ect..
so what about this:
2 tanks + ppu |-vs-| 3 tanks
imo if it was balanced they should have equal chances to win.
..according to your statement, bringing a PPU to a fight would _always_ be the second choice. I wonder how many rezz-bitches will remain. :rolleyes:
At first I was kind of scared at the way Professions would work. But this is obviously something you have thought about for a long time. I really like the thought you have put into it. I like the ideas of having the professions but I still dont know if I like the idea of changing bonuses for characters subskills (about the spy athl vs the tank athl). Everything else sounds fine. On the topic of offense and defense GET rid of swirlies or make them optional so i can actually snipe:). I like the idea of professions alot because it does open up more of a equal but different kind of situation. It lets people diversify or specialise as they like. The one thing that I'm sure people are afraid of as I am a little is that the professions will be relied on too heavily as the balancing factor rather than actual thought into balancing. As I stated though you seem to have thought it out rather well.
But on a design an implementation part of it....why not just make the effectiveness of armor or weapons or tools just recieve a direct bonus from the profession.
As in: no tiered weapons with artificial restrictions. Just inherent bonuses based on character profession? Instead of having professions based items vs generic? Is there some special consideration I'm missing or what?
To me this would lessen the work to create "artificial" items with strictly profession restrictions. I know you wanted to enable balancing in an easier way without encountering the too hard to cap vs to easy to cap problem but this avoids that without introducing strictly profession based items (just allow profession based bonuses to span beyond the hard coded weapon cap). It provides a reward for specialising characters without the extra work in labelling items for professions.
In doing so you still implement professions without hard coding professions into another part of the game(items). You simply add bonuses to equiped items that fall under a category covered by the characters profession. The rifler master would get xx% bonus to all stats on a rifle etc. meanwhile the same guy with the same skill setup WITHOUT a profession in rifles will simply not get a xx% bonus to rifles.
The only reason I see hard coding professions into items IS to simply have items that no other profession can use. I'm not opposed to that idea at all but I wonder if thats what might happen?
I like the idea of hard coding proffessions into items if you guys plan to provide, lets say, gadgets that only the gadgeteer profession for spies can use. You might provide a tl 70 emp shockwave gadget that disables other energy weapons. It requires 70 hightech and 40 int. Other classes and spies may have those stats but only a gadgeteer can use it.
If you are going to provide generics of basically every Profession weapon then you might as well just provide a set profession related bonus to the characters items when he equips them and not hard code it into the items. If you are going to provide profession specific items without generic equivalents in some cases (What I think you should do), then I think you should go ahead with profession specific items.
Please comment on what you plan to do. I would like to hear. If you already answered this in the detail that I have expressed then I'm sorry I asked.
I posted this in here because it related to the offense defense stuff. Not directly but indirectly. It focuses on items in example but it relates to offense and defense through professions
It just restricts freedom :(
Thats what I wanted to say in a shorter form. Give us freedom, not restrictions.
Restrictions already killed PvP (When was the last time you saw a enemy inside the plaza-sectors actually fighting?). Restrictions made griefing easier (cave+barrel+idiot that runs into). Restrictions kill fun and variety.
At least we are driving forward (took long enough), but we're heading towards a cliff. Hit the brakes and turn around.
Hell-demon
20-03-06, 19:32
You intrigue me Slith and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter, buuuut I don't think KK will listen to us O_o
Ah yes, the last 2 months of work. So far all anyone has seen is just one small area. We havent even got into all the other areas yet, just becuase we've only posted so much at this time does not mean we havent actually done more.
We're just not going to shove everything on to the forums at once, that would be chaos and nothing would ever get decided on. I'm just going by the fact that this is the biggest change in NC history, bigger than NC1 => NC2, yet somehow it's going to take less time than the 3 years it took to make NC2. Don't get me wrong, I love pretty much every single idea that has been put forward so far, but KK have a history of missing deadlines.
I've just come home from work WHOO HOO! and while i was there I had a though...
So their are going to be what? 11 "careers" and within those three sub "careers"
Offensive Defensive and "The middle", how do you intend to balance all that? With 3kinds of APU, Spy, PE, and Tank going around. If One type can beat the other everyone will just spec for that. So say an Offensive apu beats all then it'll be nothing but apu's, which really doesnt balance the game anymore than it is now. You did say Offensive would do better at pvp than defensive who'd do better at pve (or pvm as i call it), so all those that pvp would be offensive other wise they'd stand a harder chance of winning in pvp thus you create offsenive-o-cron or something like that.
I was on the understanding that balance = anyone can kill anyone. Though that idea does make any differneces pointless. in other words you might as well stick to one type.
Anyway it will be nice to see how you balance everything good luck!
I'm just going by the fact that this is the biggest change in NC history, bigger than NC1 => NC2, yet somehow it's going to take less time than the 3 years it took to make NC2. Don't get me wrong, I love pretty much every single idea that has been put forward too far, but KK have a history of missing deadlines.
To be fair, Neocron 2.1 and the Arcade game were bang on time with extras such as communication changes as well as the website.
However back on topic, i hope that the effort is made by those not working along side you Dirus to make sure things to support your ideas are implemented, such as new weapons, armours, missions, proffession driven stuff.
As for the 3 setup 'choices' Offence, Defence and All Rounder, the theory looks good but it's probably going to take quite alot of fine tuning, i just hope most can be taking into account :).
Schön..nu isses 20.00 Uhr und immer noch keine Übersetzung im Deutschen Forum,find das nicht so prickelnd!!
Sorry about german Posting,but we dont get a translation from what Dirus spoke,that is not happy for ppl which dont read english language..or not so good.
One Slogan from KK are "Building better World" they should build better Communication to his German users!!
regards wintah
Schön..nu isses 20.00 Uhr und immer noch keine Übersetzung im Deutschen Forum,find das nicht so prickelnd!!
Sorry about german Posting,but we dont get a translation from what Dirus spoke,that is not happy for ppl which dont read english language..or not so good.
One Slogan from KK are "Building better World" they should build better Communication to his German users!!
regards wintah
Might help if you read your own balance forum. ;)
http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=133036
Additionaly if you mean the additional posts made by Dirus, you have to understand that it takes time for translations to be made and there is a time zone different between Dirus and the office where Thanatos has been doing the translation work.
Dribble Joy
20-03-06, 22:32
Offensive Defensive and "The middle", how do you intend to balance all that? With 3kinds of APU, Spy, PE, and Tank going around. If One type can beat the other everyone will just spec for that.
I think what he means is not just 3 distinct setups per proffesion/class, but 3 regions.
Defencive would be someone who goes beyond the boundries of normal setups and is better desinged for PvE.
Offencive would be someone who is better suited to pure team based.
Both being very weak outside their given areas.
The allrounder would not be a single place, but a region where most people would fall, still with the potential for different offence/defence ratios (Libby, Judge, RoLH or PE, RoG ,FL, with the ability for variation in each weapon choice).
Still getting benefits from PPUs and being able to compete in team or PvE.
Perhaps, but being relyent on a ppu is for clanned runners only unless your rl mate is playing, and chooses to play as a ppu but i see ppus are very boring as in you cant do much without help.
On the issue of Offense, vs Defense, vs Allrounder. It's basically like DJ just explained.
I guess the best way to put it is like this.
Offense = Kamikaze type implants.. They give a boost to the offense at the cost of defense.
Defense = Implants that offer higher skill bonuses to things such as resists ect at the cost of combat abilities.
All Around = Implants ect. that would add a little to both areas, but not to the extent that the other two would add in their specified roles.
You could implant an Offense or Defense and All Around at the same time, but having an Offense implant would block the use of any Defense level implants.
@Hell-demon & Slith. I'm curious have you read any of my replies or did you see the word "restriction" and immediately post against the whole idea?
Dribble Joy
20-03-06, 22:59
Though my opinion on Kami chips is that for RP reasoning (kekekeke) they are something that a solo fighter would use, and so they should fall as an 'extreme all rounder' imp :D.
@ Dirus- Any response to my ramblings?...or has that been covered elsewhere?
In terms of weapons themselves, a hard-coded modifier would work if the difference was say 170% dmg cap base, 174% cap for Professionals, and 178% for Masters..
When it comes to things like Implants/Armor, it wouldnt really work all that well. In that case its easier to just create a bunch of items. In a way doing it the item way does give the look and feel of "more" content. Rather then just the same old items but vrying stats based on the player.
You could implant an Offense or Defense and All Around at the same time, but having an Offense implant would block the use of any Defense level implants.Don't block anything in terms of implants please. Make it like the aggresive3 and passive3, you could imp them both, but its not worth it. Just don't block...@Hell-demon & Slith. I'm curious have you read any of my replies or did you see the word "restriction" and immediately post against the whole idea?Huh? You won't get rid of me that easy :rolleyes: (actually, you will get rid of me much easier, going to bed now ;) )
I didn't post against the whole idea, although I don't like most of it. As I stated above, I'd like a game where I can do a bit more than just type A or B. What pisses me off in the other MMORPG is, that you have restrictions anywhere and everywhere. And Neocron has a skilling system thats really great in that sense (PvP isn't anymore, just Opfights or OP-deathmatch-zones, MB and sometimes PP3 :( ). More restrictions for skilling will make it just like every MMORPG out there (your ideas really remind me of Guild Wars...), I'm waiting for some imps that give dodging-% and critical hit chances.
First Love PEs, melee PEs, pistol tanks, heavy-combat spys, rigger-melee tanks, etc. are the things that make Neocron interesting. Keep 'em.
I've seen what Guards, that most of the people in the forums wanted, did to PvP. I really hope that this is not the same.
Lets see what you want to do for hybrids. But seriously, the tradeskilling you mentioned there is for a game with more players.
And I really want to know what you want to do against a "offensive-o-cron".
Edit: Updated my sig :lol:
Huh? You won't get rid of me that easy :rolleyes: (actually, you will get rid of me much easier, going to bed now ;) )
I didn't post against the whole idea, although I don't like most of it. As I stated above, I'd like a game where I can do a bit more than just type A or B. What pisses me off in the other MMORPG is, that you have restrictions anywhere and everywhere. And Neocron has a skilling system thats really great in that sense (PvP isn't anymore, just Opfights or OP-deathmatch-zones, MB and sometimes PP3 :( ). More restrictions for skilling will make it just like every MMORPG out there (your ideas really remind me of guild wars...), I'm wating for some dodging-% and critical hit chances.
First Love PEs, melee PEs, pistol tanks, heavy-combat spys, rigger-melee tanks, etc. are the things that make Neocron interesting. Keep 'em.
I've seen what Guards, that most of the people in the forums wanted, did to PvP. I really hope that this is not the same.
Lets see what you want to do for hybrids. But seriously, the tradeskilling you mentioned there is for a game with more players.
And I really want to know what you want to do against a "offensive-o-cron".
Edit: Updated my sig :lol:
First off I'm not trying to get rid of you. If any I'd rather you gave more feedback as to what areas you dont like.
As for your arguement on the Run speed difference between classes, you're Tank is not exactly giving up much at all compared to a Spy to reach those numbers. Sure you said you have to give up a bit of CON points, but you have 60 more levels worth to play with. Not to mention beyond AGL & TC what exactly does a Tank need to spend his 70 levels worth of DEX points on?
I could sympathize with you more here if it was STR that had one of the two influences on Run Speed then you'd have to make a choice between your weapon or your run speed, but you barely sacrifice a thing compared to the Spy, who is by nature supposed to be smaller and faster then a Tank.
The Tank by nature has DEX as it's "useless" skill since it only needs 2 subskills, and one is just a point sink by definition, the Spy needs INT more then a Tank needs DEX, so in that sense it doesn't really have a skill thats as "useless" to it combat wise as a Tank does. The real fact is that your arguement on the issue based on that comparison holds little weight in my eyes.
As to your arguement against professions.
You haven't once commented on or question just how much of a disadvantage not speccing for a certain area as a "Profession" would bring. Nor have you seemed to catch on that I already address the issue of your "Pistol/Rifle/Conster PE" by saying that the skill needed to use the various areas would be lessened as a result of limiting just how effective you can be in those 3 at the top end.
So far its just been more of a "I want to do everything at once and do it just as good as those who want to actually play a dedicated character in a set area" type response from you.
As for the guards. I don't like the current way they are myself, but thats a completely different topic that will be handled later on in the rebalancing.
Very interesting. I'm wondering, tho, if the trade system you've (roughly, i know) outlined would live much past its launch...
Players now have to split their points between combat and tradeskilling. Therefore, no one* does it, and no one can blame them. There's no point whatever in having a char that's split, since (as with any mmog) the majority playerbase only goes for the best of everything.
Even with the new system you've outlined, why bother with the middle level? There's really only 2 levels of tradeskilling: useful to yourself, and useful to others. And in that second category, you're only really going to get much mileage out of being maxxed out.
By 'useful to yourself,' i mean the basic self-sufficiency skills where, say, you have recycling to 30 so you can crank out your own ammo. You don't want or expect to ever take it much further than that.
It's similar to the 'rares' situation now; and of course we all see it in every mmog. Only the best will do. There's no point (and usually much derision and hurling of the 'noob' word) in trying to play 'seriously' with midgrade or half-asked ;) weaponry. If there's some vastly superior ultimate Doohickey available, at all, in any way... then it will soon become very, very common.
Roles must be created for "less than the very best." There must be a *reason* to be an average constructor, or a 'midly competent' researcher. Hell, the average guy's supposed to be the most common, right?
As of now, just like the Jones Reward situation, you have chars made into pure constructor or pure poker, because nothing less will do. Only because of the light population does anyone of less than Ultimate skill ever find work, so if this situation persists, then Neocron may fail when it succeeds; that is, if it attracted 50,000 players tomorrow, what would happen?
*cough*WoW*cough*.
I know i'm dumping the single most persistent world-design issue in mmogs out on the table; i don't pretend to have The Perfect Fix, and i don't expect you to pop right out with it either (tho you certainly sound like you've been workin' on it). I just think this 'all or nothing' issue is the heart of all balance and gameplay headaches and i like to address root causes...
Without there being a REASON not to be The Penultimate Grandmaster Champion Star-Kicking Best, then the current situations will persist. You can make *mechanics* for low and midgrade options... but if you can provide compelling *reasons* to choose those options, then you've won right there. The details almost don't matter at that point.
imho, the current 'combat or trade' has to go, yes. charslots should be for new chars you like, not one character split into 4 slots... every char, hacker or physical, tank or sniper, should be able to do something moderately viable outside a fight (but shouldn't HAVE to, either). No, more then 'they should be able to...' cause that's easily solved with a few lines of code.
There should be an ingame NEED for them to. That's the only thing that will make people even bother trying it.
---
*statistically insignificant, a'ight?
note: all statements above of "must," "should," "absolutely imperative," "worldshakingly vital" and "i'm telling mom!" should be taken with a shaker of salt and understood as merely my own, if strongly held, opinions.
BTW: D, i read your posts and plans and get the distinct image of you eyeing up the guts of the game and rubbing your hands maniacally. You seem prepared to tear it apart and rebuild it from the ground up if necessary to get this sucker truly ready for prime-time. morituri te saluto, and all that.
Dribble Joy
21-03-06, 02:30
With rares, there is an issue with 'only the best', previously there was a rnage of options that were equally viable, going for the highest tl gun was not an aim, they were so hard to cap, that as with all the other weapons, it was not about capping, it was about reaching a cirtain dmg rate, increasing it meant loosing defences and lowering it meant more defences, it was all reasonably balanced and you could use any weapon at any level of power/skilling and be viable.
The problem is that currently there is not this room for manouver. You cannot use a BoH over a slasher and remain defence/offencively balanced, you cap the slasher with so little effort that you loose no defences over the BoH.
That and people have become obsessed with the need to cap any weapon they get their mits on, rather than choose an amount of skilling for their offence and defence that suits their playstyle.
Also, you need a very harsh system whereby if you want to do two things, then you should not be able to be top quality with either.
Though I do wonder what you are going to do with the secondary tradeskills like hacking and imping.
An aspect I haven't seen addressed is interface changes as a path through some of this. The following is an just an illustration.
Tank: An interface that will show him the possible path of his wep (mainly thinking about AOE weps here) or maybe something that would tell him about his targets current armor or in PVE sense the mobs resists, in an RP sense a tank would know these sort of things.
PE(pistol): Would get the same type of info as the tank though with less detail about the armor (PE:target=inq Tank:target =Inq4) PE would, possibly as a PA benefit, have a range finder.
Spy(rifle): Snipers need a fix so that wep's like the SH actually shoot a long ways, the draw distance restricts this, aim should be more like a linear drone being sent out. A sniper rifle that can shoot as far as a laser pistol is pointless.
PPU: An interface that tells the monk HP, current buffs, and armor would be nice, it would activate when in a party. The current system is very FPS and doesn't take into account that these guys are supposed to be psychic, thus knowing info about their team.
APU/Droner: Apu's are easy to use (maybe too easy), and droners have a nice "new" interface with plenty of info already.
Someone said something about swirlies, got me thinking. I wouldn't be a bad thing if one rare in each class didn't have a swirly for ambush purposes.
Dentist
HC: Take your pick, I don't see cannons as ambush viable.
Judge
Silent Hunter
Anti-Buff
Parashock
Revenge without a local name?
I'm looking forward to this new way KK is comunicating these days. Is there a list of the people who are doing what throughout this process?
Dirus,
All of these changes means essentially an entirely new game with I dunno how many new series of implants and new weaponry. What will it happen to all the current gamers? How will you be able to fuse old player base who most dont do anything other than op fights/ooc spam?
As for your arguement on the Run speed difference between classes, you're Tank is not exactly giving up much at all compared to a Spy to reach those numbers. Sure you said you have to give up a bit of CON points, but you have 60 more levels worth to play with. Not to mention beyond AGL & TC what exactly does a Tank need to spend his 70 levels worth of DEX points on?Agility. A Tank normally has 89 points in TC, some in recycle and enough in vehicle use for driving a 4x4 or a Hovertec, the rest in agility. And he really needs the agility, couse it gives him a slight advantage with his cannons. And yes, the Tank has 60 more levels in CON to play with. But he has not the same armor as the Spy, a spy has Heavybelts, his PA and Inqui1. A Tank has Duranium4 and Inqui4. A Monk has his good-for-all armor. And all the other classes can use a shelter, so it's not a big difference if the Tank has 60more levels in CON. My Spy almost reaches Tankresists with 4 Drugs, including Nightspider for Shelter, if he doesn't spec any points in poisonresist (I use 10sec stealth and heavybelts for that). He can take more damage than my Tank that roughly has this resists: 160F, 185E, 150X and 90P. My Spy got
145F, 180E, 160X + Shelter. Against melee he uses his heavybelt. And the 100hp less are not that much of a problem, couse he can heal himself up much more efficient, use shelter and stealth away if necessary.
I could sympathize with you more here if it was STR that had one of the two influences on Run Speed then you'd have to make a choice between your weapon or your run speed, but you barely sacrifice a thing compared to the Spy, who is by nature supposed to be smaller and faster then a Tank.I have to agree, that I don't have to sacrifice points in my weapons skill to get more runspeed. But I have to sacrifice them under CON, and for a Tank thats just as important as STR is. The Spy should be fast, yes, faster than he is now. But a Tank should still be able to run as fast if he doesn't use his weapon.
The Tank by nature has DEX as it's "useless" skill since it only needs 2 subskills, and one is just a point sink by definition, the Spy needs INT more then a Tank needs DEX, so in that sense it doesn't really have a skill thats as "useless" to it combat wise as a Tank does.DEX is everything but useless for a Tank, see above. A Spy needs INT more then a Tank needs DEX? Yes, but then again, INT is one of the Spys mainskills, DEX is not a Tanks mainskill.
Nor have you seemed to catch on that I already address the issue of your "Pistol/Rifle/Conster PE" by saying that the skill needed to use the various areas would be lessened as a result of limiting just how effective you can be in those 3 at the top end.If you can do that, great. But be really careful that you don't make something useless in combat becouse of this restriction, and not becouse he has not enough points to spec. Or soon we will have a offensive-o-cron (that we already have in some kid of way, everybody that wants to do PvP, totally specs for it).
So far its just been more of a "I want to do everything at once and do it just as good as those who want to actually play a dedicated character in a set area" type response from you.But thats not what I wanted. There should be less specialisation, but if you do it, you should get a reward. The hard-coded 170% maxdamage sounds good to me. But be careful in terms of frequency. Less damage is enough already.
As for the guards. I don't like the current way they are myself, but thats a completely different topic that will be handled later on in the rebalancing.A completely different topic, that I find more important than the balancing. What to balance if there is only borked PvP at zonelines and OPWars. But good to hear that it will be handled. Tried to "kill the guards" ? ;)
As to what’s meant by the Perma-Shelter. Basically what this means is that a Shelter would no longer be based on "time" like it is currently. But be based on a set amount of damage it will deflect. One that value is reached then the shelter would effectively wear off. i.e. If a shelter currently deflects 70% of all damage over X minutes. The new shelters would work by deflecting 70% of damage up to a max of say 1500dmg.
Rightio - I can see something like this becoming very effective as a measure in PvP, the issue I have problems with is the PvE aspect, where, being able to take a set amount of damage would be a lacklustre measure, purely because in some areas, such as regants, the chaos caves, fire mob areas etc, mass damage is simply unavoidable. I can imagine some balancing for mobs would be done.
I can imagine that shelter would have to have completely run out before a new one could be applied?
==============================================
Class tier system :
How will one choose thier professions? Do you envisage a set number of choices, such as a max of three choices from the tiers IE
Normal>Proffessional>Master Infiltrator
or
Normal>Professional Hacker with a cross skill to Normal infiltrator? ( A total of 3 choices.
Would cross profession setups be at a disadvantage given the low playerbase, at the moment - my particular worry being the hybrid tradeskillers having to switch from say 3 or 4 disciplines to just the one or two?
This, unless populations were to rise would have a severe impact on some of the tradeskillers ingame.
basically is offensive, defensive, allrounder builds going to work?
And why does the offensive person have to be better than the defensive person?
would it not be better if it worked like this??
taking the Gentank as our base
an offensive Gentank gains +10% to his damage output
an defensive Gentank gains +10% to his damage mitigation
an allrounder Gentank gains +5% to his damage output and +5% to his damage mitigation.
therefore a beserker stance tank vs a defensive stance tank will be an even match up as the extra 10% damage delt by the offensive tank is mitigated by the 10% damage mitigation that the defensive tank has, and therefore the fight is down to pure skill as their both dealing the same effective damage to each other.
now this will allow for defensive tanks to be OP defenders and offensive tanks to be OP attackers.
all rounders will be those that like to hedge their bets and wish to be able to do both effectively.
because if offensive tanks are going to be better than allrounder/defensive builds then everyone will probably go offensive builds as PvP is the end game, balance them out against each other and you'll get a varity of types.
As Dirus already mentioned, we have mixed feelings about this concept. One major reason being that the technical implementation would only be partially possible, it would almost be like programming a new game - which would go way beyond the limits of this balance project.
We also feel the specialization would go too far, it just wouldn't feel like Neocron anymore. We share Dirus' concerns about making professions more important, however we think this should be done without going into such a degree of specialization. We'd like to see your suggestions for this.
Dribble Joy
21-03-06, 12:03
I'm not really sure, it could either be a good way of doing things, or it could end up being horribly restrictive.
We do need more proffession based content in the game. Quests are the biggest possibility.
Basic item restriction could work (like I mentioned before, restricting high level items of a particular type to cirtain proffessions), as it could be a work around tweaking other reqs.
When it comes to altering caps regarding proffessions, well personally I don't like caps, the fact someone is skilling more points to be a 'pro' or 'master' in a cirtain area should be reward enough over dividing them between skills.
As for the shelter. I'd rather it be an HP boost. The problem is that afaik, you can't apply %HP boosts currently, only basic absolute values.
The proposed changes would mean cirtain classes would have to recast more often than others, so we might need a freq change to shelters, making them more like a heal so they can be used easily by people of all skill in combat, rather than the pre-fight spell it's more like now.
Maybe we should get a test server up and running and implement and test ideas, its all well and good talking about things but unless the player base can see the effects and such, all we be doing is making our fingers sore from the typing of disputes and such.
Sooooo a test server is the answer
Regards
anyone from KK wanna give an ETA or where KK stands with a test server?
tyvmia
Forget the test server it's way too early for that.
These forums have only been up a couple of days, and I certaintly haven't finished talking here about the current subjects.
btw are all changes going to effect all servers including neptune, or will neptune even still exist, lol
I think the proffesions are a good thing, they will keep classes balanced while giving kk more freedom to give us point, in effect actualy making the game less restrictive.
Coming in late to all this, apologies. I always felt defense was un-RP wrt the skills - Everything has a STR requirement and there is very, very few items that need CON (Hearts and...umm, is there anything else?). Constitution is the most underused skill as far as items go. Also, i think CON should be used as a multiplier for heals/buffs, etc. E.g. Tank Capped 100 CON = Holy Heal does HolyHeal dmg * 1.0. APU Capped 45 CON = HolyHeal does HolyHeal dmg * .45. tonns of other balancing needed for this to work though; as it creates PE/Tankathon.
Possibly somthing similar for Shelter/Def.
I saw on one of the threads someone mention PPU buff limits. This, IMO, is the best idea on any of these threads (shouldn't include a heal btw; just an opinion). The number brings a whole new element to set ups; ESPECIALLY if there was an Epic/Drop/whatever IMP that increased that number by +1. Examplpe: Buffs/Primes allowed /0 to /30 = 1, /30 to /60 = 2, etc.
The point being you can't throw a Melee3, Haz3, Shelt and Def on an APU and watch him walk around unscathed, you would have to choose which ones carefully.
Which brings us nicely on to another subject: Primes. How on Earth, in an RP sense can you add a Melee 3 to someone without them speccing a single point of Melee? One could ask why HLT is in Melee 3 anyways, its a Combat Prime ffs. But certainly there should be some restriction on the player you are casting it on (i.e. How to Re-Roll; Ask a capped PPU from your alts clan to help you for a couple of hours casting Holy spells on your /2 newb while you knife a titan? Come on, not true new subscriber friendly is it?)
Defense should also be relative to stance/movement (sorry, SWG/WoW creeping in here). The Roman turtle anyone? Stationary = +Defense, + Accuracy. Walking and Running they drop respectively (I think this already does for Reticle close). APU can RUN (very fast) and Fire a rare Holy spell without reticle and no loss of defense and always hit?
Just some random ideas
Cheers
Gal
I think the health bonus from the Melee buff is put there because being a melee you always take damage and are in front of everyone in any fight.
A small compensation for all the damage you take.
remove % damage, this would also go a long way into balancing things.
So which class is gonna be the new "Hard to play, but if your good you can take out everyone".
Dribble Joy
21-03-06, 23:35
High offence/low defence probably, it useually is. Get the drop on someone and your advantage is greater than any other class.
Has para come up in any discussions yet?
Going back to what you are saying about a full skill point release, If you change any states on a Class, then i suppose release point would be the only awy,
Becaase lets say you remove 5 con from a PE< where to take those 25 points from :), Release would seem like the only logical answer... Of course im drunk and very tired, so some1 will prove me wrong :)
I agree with Brammers.
If you have concentrated fully on your profession you should have some edge over others.
I'll take Brammers main character as an example.
He is a Constructor/Droner.
His droning is up to professional level (maybe marked by his base WPW/RCL stat - without implants) and therefore can push his drone a few feet further than that of say a normal droner, he doesnt need the drones to be dealing a few more % damage because thats what the stats do for you already, and because of his status of a droner he can use the special "Professional Droners Imps"
However his Construction is at Master level, now as tradeskill professions are different to combat professions (as in combat characters are rewarded themselves by being able to use certian weapons that lower statted toons cant use) they should be treated as such.
A normal constructor, such as my own who has about 135 cst as anymore doesnt make much of a difference, will make the items at the normal "capped" standards that we get from all constructors of today, which i belive is around like 84%.
A professional Constructor will make non rare items at 10% over the "capped" standards of todays items and rare items at 1 - 2% better quality
A master constructor will make non rare items at 20% over the "capped" standards and make rare items are 4 - 5% better quality (instead of say 100% to 120%, masters will make them at 105 to 125).
i can hear the researchers crying already soo...
Normal resser, resses at the same speed as of todays standards
A professional resser resses at 20% faster and adds +5% to the lower bottom end stats (e.g. say the range for a Holy heal is between 70 - 80% a professional researcher will make this range 75 - 80%)
A master resser will ress at 50% faster and adds 10% to the bottem end stats (e.g. say the range for a Holy heal is between 70 - 80% a professional researcher will make this range 80 - 80%, guarentees you top quality).
snipers/assassins should gain extra range to their rifles based on WPL... etc.
i can hear the researchers crying already soo...
Normal resser, resses at the same speed as of todays standards
A professional resser resses at 20% faster and adds +5% to the lower bottom end stats (e.g. say the range for a Holy heal is between 70 - 80% a professional researcher will make this range 75 - 80%)
A master resser will ress at 50% faster and adds 10% to the bottem end stats (e.g. say the range for a Holy heal is between 70 - 80% a professional researcher will make this range 80 - 80%, guarentees you top quality).
snipers/assassins should gain extra range to their rifles based on WPL... etc.
I agree with you on making a professional/master researcher res faster, but I'm not sure about making researchers effect the final build quality. That would mean only best researchers get all the work, and the researcher who is trying to make a living researching in Tech Haven is going to find getting work harder.
Now, one thing that just came to my mind, is how do you really know a person who claims they are a Master Constructor is really a Master Constructor?
a title?
e.g.
Articifer Brammers
Has para come up in any discussions yet?
That's the one I'm waiting for :D
Now, one thing that just came to my mind, is how do you really know a person who claims they are a Master Constructor is really a Master Constructor?
That could be the only use for the profession line above characters heads if it was entered.
Brammers
Master Constructor
Phoenix Ltd
Fallen Angels
But as i was talking to someone (think it was Delphi, i was tired :p) on vent the other night the extra line could be a bit much, but it would be handy.
Bugs Gunny
23-03-06, 16:51
Has para come up in any discussions yet?
Since runspeed and dodging is going to be considdered as part of the ballancing, parashock is from then on an overpowering weapon.
Why?
Well parashock removes 80% of your runspeed.
I wonder how people would react if there was a one shot weapon that instantly removed 80% of a person's health or resists.
(euh... revenge drone aside, because we all know that's just in the category "plain wrong")
Parashock?
Get rid... kill it and all it stands for then burn the corpses then piss on the grave of parashock....
i dont like it, can you tell?
just remove it tho, only way to be sure
para does not need to be removed, but instead of a long slow make it a quick "tool" to slow somone down at a key time, increase the casts to 105, keep the psi cost insainly high, make it put on 2 psi effects, one is a 4 second para, the other makes you immune to para for 1 min. There issue fixed.
It can then be used to let a ppu outrun somone and escape, or to slow down somone running away, but it can't be used to just screw somone over for an entire fight, and if you waste your para....you can't try again on that person for a full min.
Dribble Joy
23-03-06, 17:56
I'm not going to comment about para here, I'll just be feeding the flames.
Lets keep it for when the appropriate thread appears.
Now, one thing that just came to my mind, is how do you really know a person who claims they are a Master Constructor is really a Master Constructor?
Just add some thing over the top near rank that covers tradeskills something like:
MC - For over lets say 185 construct
MRp - Same but for rep
MRs - Same research now
MH - Crazy leet hax0r dude.
One could replace the normal chevron/star whatever rank think for those with enough spec as well to something along the above.
PARASHOCK should be an APU spell similar to HAB.
Pure apus could either HAB or PARA.
Ultimately i think they should have the choice between HAB, PARA or DB.
DB should aslo cost a lot of mana to cast (260)
A spell that removes BOTH your S and D AND the heal is overpowered as well.
Synchronize
24-03-06, 09:33
I agree with you on making a professional/master researcher res faster, but I'm not sure about making researchers effect the final build quality. That would mean only best researchers get all the work, and the researcher who is trying to make a living researching in Tech Haven is going to find getting work harder.
Now, one thing that just came to my mind, is how do you really know a person who claims they are a Master Constructor is really a Master Constructor?
Making researchers affect the final build quality is not possible if the item tracking don't work (and just now it seem to have disappear in a black hole :p )
And for you're question :
How do you know that the one you give an item to repair it don't take the item and said "bye, bye NooB" ?
How do you know that the cst who said have 200 CST had it ?
How do you know that the research who said have 200 rech had it and don't switch the rare you gave him with other ?
It's part of the game :)
And for you're question :
How do you know that the one you give an item to repair it don't take the item and said "bye, bye NooB" ?
How do you know that the cst who said have 200 CST had it ?
How do you know that the research who said have 200 rech had it and don't switch the rare you gave him with other ?
It's part of the game :)
You don't, and yeah I agree scamming/word of mouth is part of the game.
IIRC if you look at the runner's info page, you can see the runner's current profession. So maybe some extra information could be added there?
Or to give hackers something to do, get them to find that information out in hacknet.
Bugs Gunny
24-03-06, 11:13
I saw a pirate scam some people last night, claiming he did construction and repair....
Anyway, some people are just too funny. Someone on vent asked a guy in techhaven to repair his dimension splitter, the repairer replied "No, i won't repair an ally pker's stuff. I hate you"..............
Euh .. HEEEELLLOOOOOOOO ?????
PARASHOCK should be an APU spell similar to HAB.
Pure apus could either HAB or PARA.
Ultimately i think they should have the choice between HAB, PARA or DB.
DB should aslo cost a lot of mana to cast (260)
A spell that removes BOTH your S and D AND the heal is overpowered as well.
- All players should have upside down heads
- Eating 2 milky rens in a row should kill you unless you eat a third one within 0.1 seconds
- Psi spells should have a dex requirement, and pistol and rifles should have a psi requirement
Just to add to the list of random pointless changes....
Bugs Gunny
24-03-06, 13:56
Giga, your changes make more sense tbh.
I'm serious, if Dirus lets this community have a real voice in the ballancing it'll be the end of neocron. I have never ever seen this much shortsighted stupid suggestions in such a short period of time.
You know what's realy sad? The fact that there's people out there who know everything about the game, both in pro and anti, people who know exactly what makes this game unballanced. However they are 99% banned from the forums for speaking their mind about how KK went about the ballancing and bugfixing in the past.
Except the odd vet, or knowledgable player here and there, these ballancing forums seem to draw out every noob and his friends, who now spew silly ideas like their breathing out air.
And no, i don't claim to know all about pvp and ballance, i do have spies and pes nailed down though, and i've capped and played all other classes too.
But i'm waiting till i see exactly what is going to change , because anything else that involves ballancing classes etc that's being introduced here is just a big waste of time.
Dribble Joy
24-03-06, 14:45
There's also a large number of people that do know about the game works, how it could be balanced but don't want it to be so they can continue to be teh uber.
blackpheonix
24-03-06, 19:27
Now, one thing that just came to my mind, is how do you really know a person who claims they are a Master Constructor is really a Master Constructor?
maybe have a right click menu like you do for weapons/drugs etc in the ppl box next the communicator. that brings up a list of details. (if user has x amount of point in cst = master). as well as adding it to runner information on the citycom. just an idea :)
also bring in a PDA save running to citycom everytime you want to do a mission :p
heh PDA , id just goto Battle Dome and lvl of Launchers from lvl 10, lol
with missins would lvl there pretty dam fast,
Heavyporker
27-03-06, 08:29
I'm looking at this thread and I'm, frankly, dazed. Just so I can get a handle on things...
These supposed offensive, defensive, and all-rounder implants, just how do they apply to, say, a Psi Monk?
Would an APU putting in an attack chip lose some health or some resistance in order to gain these crucial points of APU or PPW?
Would a PPU that puts in a defensive PSI chip gain health/resists?
Would that all-rounder, clearly a hybrid, just get small psi bonuses?
Wouldn't that increase the number of implants tremendously, like 3x or 4x the current number of implants, because you're trying to make a line for everything?
What about the faction database implants? Are they going to get split into types too?
I can just see resser/conster lives becoming hell, trying to maintain their bp libraries. *shudders*
And, yes, the profession thing concerns me a tad. Profession titles will have to become rather more clear for these starting a character. I mean, heck, I still see the 'Infiltrator' psi monk. What the hell does he have to infiltrate with! (Oh, man, I wish the old KK text on psi monks came true... monks having stealth and teleportation...)
This is kind of a huge change, and just a bit hard to understand.
Dirus have you taken any notice of http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=123392 this or not?
I think it's worth a read anway.
Dirus have you taken any notice of http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=123392 this or not?
I think it's worth a read anway.
I read it when it was posted.
As for profession system. You can post your feedback and ideas, but I wont be commenting or holding discussions relating to the topic for the next little while till things are discussed further internally.
I meant have you considered any of it in the balancing going on at the moment?
I meant have you considered any of it in the balancing going on at the moment?
To be honest, I have my own ways of dealing with the PPU issues. Most of the ideas in that thread dont address the fundemental issues that PPU's play off to cause such imbalance in the game.
But I see things differently from everyone else. I dont look at set items ect, I look at the math behind everything.
But I see things differently from everyone else. I dont look at set items ect, I look at the math behind everything.
If you are going to talk about the significance of the mathematics all the while, mind showing us some of what you are talking about? So far we have seen a couple of examples, but I can't imagine thats what you really mean.
Bugs Gunny
28-03-06, 13:10
Linear, no flîppoints, weapon tl and dammageoutput in line with each other etc...
Everything we allways wanted.
In fact i've been believing that the whole non linear formulas thing was what caused new stuff to be outrageously overpowered or underpowered all the time.
Linear, no flîppoints, weapon tl and dammageoutput in line with each other etc...
Everything we allways wanted.
In fact i've been believing that the whole non linear formulas thing was what caused new stuff to be outrageously overpowered or underpowered all the time.
na it wasnt the non linear forumale, its more likely to be the excessive use of performance enhancing drugs......
..... and patsy the clap ridden drom hooker you have a habit of using.
Bugs Gunny
28-03-06, 13:31
Oh it was????
Damn, ok Dirus, remove drugs and everything is ballanced again, because apparently drugged pes are the major unballancing factor in the game :D
BUT THE DROMHOOKER STAYS !!!!!!
Dribble Joy
28-03-06, 14:16
Non linearity isn't such an issue really (nonlinear doesn't just mean positive exponential). Keeping things consistant is.
Bugs Gunny
28-03-06, 14:21
Dj, you don't read things, all you see is a few words and then start typing like a madman. Please go on a vacation for a day or so, because you realy upset my forum enjoyment, and my stomach too sometimes.
Nobody said anything about positive exponentials. Non linearity can be a serious problem if the formula used is very complex and has references to variables in other areas of the coding, and nobody realy mapped out the code.
Dribble Joy
28-03-06, 14:44
You can be an utter cunt when it comes to these things and equally as blinkered as you think I am.
The posititve exponential comment was made at everyone. There are an infinite number of functions and they all behave differently, not in the way 'most' people think when they read/hear non linear.
We can't just say everything should be linear, whatever fits the need is what we should have.
Linear, no flîppoints, weapon tl and dammageoutput in line with each other etc...
Everything we allways wanted.
No flippoints = good
Weapon dmg proportional to tl? Maybe a slight curve (up or down) could actually provide a better balance?
All depends on the skill and item system.
In fact i've been believing that the whole non linear formulas thing was what caused new stuff to be outrageously overpowered or underpowered all the time.
Why? Why this blanket dissaproval of non linear?
The relationships at work and the mechanics of the item and the values plugged into them are all part of the problems at hand.
You guys start drifting into endless useless disputes in mathematics, that has nothing to do with the game itself. DJ afaik, bugs had challenged you to prove that you are the master in theory behind neocron. Im still waiting for you to setup the date
Dribble Joy
28-03-06, 15:05
You guys start drifting into endless useless disputes in mathematics, that has nothing to do with the game itself.
It has everything to do with the game, the current balance system is a mess, not only from a coding efficiency viewpoint, but the basic means by which it affects the game. Flippoints, bi-linear relationships, incorrect curves and all the other parts all make things as they are both too complicated but also make balancing properly within them impossible.
DJ afaik, bugs had challenged you to prove that you are the master in theory behind neocron. Im still waiting for you to setup the date
He's hardly proved he's openminded enough to do so, let alone win.
It's all a bit academic anyway, nothing we say is going to hae any real effect.
Bugs Gunny
28-03-06, 15:05
Dj, calling people cunts does absolutely nothing for the reputation of know it all neocron fountain of wisdom you so desperately seem to seek.
I'll make it simple for you and everyone else reading this:
DJ lives in the past with his pe, he is NOT a pvper.
If he's not a pvper then how in the hell is he going to validate any of the points he's trying to make?
I don't take my classic cars to the local bycicling club for a nice "tuneup".
I vote DJ to be placed in charge of picking collors for the new armors, i'm sure he'll do an excellent job at that.
EDIT: DJ, i'll guarantee you i'll win. And to make it fun for everyone, how about you go wield your trusty judge, and i'll come with a collection from judge down to the poison nailgun? We'll see at which point you start winning.
I suggest we make an event out of it , battledome?
Dj, calling people cunts does absolutely nothing for the reputation of know it all neocron fountain of wisdom you so desperately seem to seek.
I'll make it simple for you and everyone else reading this:
DJ lives in the past with his pe, he is NOT a pvper.
If he's not a pvper then how in the hell is he going to validate any of the points he's trying to make?
I don't take my classic cars to the local bycicling club for a nice "tuneup".
I vote DJ to be placed in charge of picking collors for the new armors, i'm sure he'll do an excellent job at that.
EDIT: DJ, i'll guarantee you i'll win. And to make it fun for everyone, how about you go wield your trusty judge, and i'll come with a collection from judge down to the poison nailgun? We'll see at which point you start winning.
I suggest we make an event out of it , battledome?
too bad balance is not about who pvps better.
RogerRamjet
28-03-06, 16:25
too bad balance is not about who pvps better.
Some people seem to think it is.
Especially when you beat them.
It has everything to do with the game, the current balance system is a mess, not only from a coding efficiency viewpoint, but the basic means by which it affects the game. Flippoints, bi-linear relationships, incorrect curves and all the other parts all make things as they are both too complicated but also make balancing properly within them impossible.
So, by your theory, all that KK needs to do is hire or outsource a mathematician, if they cant do that by themselves, and the whole ballance issue was just a matter of finding a couple of linear equations or at worst some exponential ones???? !!!!! :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
DJ, I believe that in theory you are even worst than in pvp, I bet Dirus cant hold his belly laughing from what he reads in here. Jesus man, just let it go
This is an RPG first and foremost, FPS is just how the combat side is played, I feel we've lost sight of this too much and have been pushing the FPS side at the cost of the RPG side.
This will kill neocron, the sooner you figure this out and stop with the carebare shit the better!
This will kill neocron, the sooner you figure this out and stop with the carebare shit the better!
Carebear? RP is about atmosphere, the hows and whys of what gets done in game, It's about creating a definition of a class. It's nothing at all to do with anything remotely considered "carebear". I think you need to go back and watch the cartoon, get a better understanding of what "carebears" were.
Carebears were all about getting along with each other and being happy, making fighting harder to do ect. RP is about having a reason for the items being there in the first place, about not just randomly throwing items ingame with no reason for them. RP is creating drugs that only a GenTank can use by giving it a side effect of say killing the poor spy who tried to use it cuz their body couldnt handle it.
RP over FPS is about not giving into the need for being uber if it means that the backstory for that item ect is tossed out the window as a result. In fact, RP over FPS can go against carebearism by not allowing the Spy to have said drug in the first place by removing the RP side of it killing the Spy on use, when they whine and cry that they want access to it.
This will kill neocron, the sooner you figure this out and stop with the carebare shit the better!
lols , such a small minded one you are.
Carebear? RP is about atmosphere, the hows and whys of what gets done in game, It's about creating a definition of a class. It's nothing at all to do with anything remotely considered "carebear". I think you need to go back and watch the cartoon, get a better understanding of what "carebears" were.
Carebears were all about getting along with each other and being happy, making fighting harder to do ect. RP is about having a reason for the items being there in the first place, about not just randomly throwing items ingame with no reason for them. RP is creating drugs that only a GenTank can use by giving it a side effect of say killing the poor spy who tried to use it cuz their body couldnt handle it.
RP over FPS is about not giving into the need for being uber if it means that the backstory for that item ect is tossed out the window as a result. In fact, RP over FPS can go against carebearism by not allowing the Spy to have said drug in the first place by removing the RP side of it killing the Spy on use, when they whine and cry that they want access to it.
you know what i meant, and before i go to watch my cartoons, make sure you do too.
- Id rather see you fix the essentials, before even thinking of "creating drugs for gentanks"
content < fixes
lols , such a small minded one you are.
you dont know me :angel: small minded but i know what i want :wtf:
Bugs Gunny
29-03-06, 00:03
Onero, you need to at least pvp to know about pvp.
Standing at the sideline won't give you half of the knowledge as playing all the classes in combat does.
It's up to Dirus to come up with crazy shit, it's up to us to break it on the testserver and then let him come up with even crazier shit to fix it, untill all classes complain, then we have ballance.
you dont know me :angel: small minded but i know what i want :wtf:
Exacly , but You aint > all.
The games population as it is , is like it for a reason. Maybe with these changes MORE ppl might actuley start playing.
**Btw wasnt taking a dig at ya , Just give dirus or who ever a chance to make changes and see if more ppl come. One of the reasons i aint currently playing is because to be quite frank , its boreing as hell, if i wanna kill kill kill ill go play DoD or CSS or BF2. Maybe with more RPG will make it MORE fun! :rolleyes: