View Full Version : Private Eye Proposition #1
Today and over the next week we’d like to see your feedback about several possible changes. These propositions concern specific aspects of the class roles. We will add more propositions throughout the week.
Like the tank, the Private Eye would be able to use the heal tool mentioned in the tank post. To reinforce his position as potential supporter, he could also receive access to a remote heal tool. Similar to the heal tool, this tool would heal immediately for a fixed amount. Again, the number of uses over a certain period of time would be limited. This would allow the PE to keep a single person alive during combat.
He could further specialize in team support by skilling the potentially new EPU line, giving him access to small buffs and antibuffs.
To further differentiate him from the spy, the duration of the stealth effect would be reduced for the PE and he would no longer have access to the spy’s specialized weapons.
having reading all of the propositions the PE one frightens me the most... the others seem great, all of it, my only reservations for the PE is that they become too vague and lose much and dont gain as much as the others.
bring back the regs for all stealths and drop the spy only tag, i feel that PE's should be able to access the lower tier items that those of other classes can use, yet the PE should also have his own line of weapons, ones that require both STR and DEX, like solo Rhinos etc, i hope the PE doesnt become so JOAT that they become useless.
PE's will have the most to lose and the most to gain, as they have no definitive roles, they stand to lose more than they gain.
Dribble Joy
24-03-06, 18:06
Are you suggesting that PEs loose psi heals?
As long as the effects are the same and it's a tool rather than just powerful medkits (which will take up valuable QB spaces) then I don't really have an issue.
With EPU or greater capacity for support items, then any PE that chooses to use these is going to loose S/D effectiveness, which I don't really agree with, no PE will use them if they want to be competitive fighters in or out of teams. Unless there are 'tech' PE only versions of them and the psi spells are removed from teh PE's psi range.
As for weapons, reorganising the PE max potential weapon tl and the tl tree of the weapons would remove the need to forcably restrict the item availiable.
awkward silence
24-03-06, 18:28
Today and over the next week we’d like to see your feedback about several possible changes. These propositions concern specific aspects of the class roles. We will add more propositions throughout the week.
Like the tank, the Private Eye would be able to use the heal tool mentioned in the tank post. To reinforce his position as potential supporter, he could also receive access to a remote heal tool. Similar to the heal tool, this tool would heal immediately for a fixed amount. Again, the number of uses over a certain period of time would be limited. This would allow the PE to keep a single person alive during combat.
He could further specialize in team support by skilling the potentially new EPU line, giving him access to small buffs and antibuffs.
To further differentiate him from the spy, the duration of the stealth effect would be reduced for the PE and he would no longer have access to the spy’s specialized weapons.
Thats it very vague to me... Not to sound rude but i need a better description to make an opinion on this.
None rares really suck in case you haven't noticed. The thing that I don't like about PEs being defensive is that it's really shitty PvP when you get a defensive class vs a defensive class.
Bugs Gunny
24-03-06, 19:29
Reduce stealth duration to what? 5 seconds? That's a joke, one can better use a stambooster in that slot then.
But anyway, we'll have to see the whole thing in action first.
I like the tank changes most so far.
To further differentiate him from the spy, the duration of the stealth effect would be reduced for the PE and he would no longer have access to the spy’s specialized weapons.
Every thing is fine for me exept one thing.
I agree that the PE should not have access to the spy's specialised weapon, but make the access to the tank's non specialised weapons easier as well. It would be nice to have access to more tank weapons, so PE couls access to mid end level melee and hc weapons.
If psi was removed completly from tanks, as proposed, then 10-15 strength could technicly be added in strength, while removing 10-15 points in dex.
Dribble Joy
24-03-06, 19:45
None rares really suck in case you haven't noticed. The thing that I don't like about PEs being defensive is that it's really shitty PvP when you get a defensive class vs a defensive class.
It depends what he means by spy weapons. Whether it's all rares or just those above a cirtain tl.
As I said, we don't need that kind of restriction if the items and weapon tls are rearanged.
You guys should think about the DB and leave the PE access to high end spy weapons.
I mean have you guys ever made a disruptor PE setup ?
Even with 3 drugs, all DEX imps and no base agility/all in PC/TC, the dizzy PE is incredibly gimp. That is, with only a dizzy, dizzy + DB makes the PE make actually more damage then a spy, and thats where the imbalance lies i think.
braydagner
24-03-06, 20:17
An anti-buff on a PE? No. Just...no.
Dribble Joy
24-03-06, 20:20
You guys should think about the DB and leave the PE access to high end spy weapons.
I mean have you guys ever made a disruptor PE setup ?
Even with 3 drugs, all DEX imps and no base agility/all in PC/TC, the dizzy PE is incredibly gimp. That is, with only a dizzy, dizzy + DB makes the PE make actually more damage then a spy, and thats where the imbalance lies i think.
Forget anything about skills, imps, armour and weapons. It's all changing so we need to look at the class as a whole.
An anti-buff on a PE? No. Just...no. Why not? Have you even considered any of the other factors that they've mentioned?
Exactly.
No PEs that HaB please.
I dont think the PE need more oportunity PSI wise, in fact that exactly where they should be nerfed. (remove the DB)
PEs should still have access to rares, period.
Hell without DB PEs could even get +5 STR and get access to the tank's weapon and it wouldnt be a major problem.
Hell make the PE able to use rezz if he drugs. but take the DB away from him.
Let him use rares.
I agree that PE's should still have access to rares, like libby, judge, paineaser, etc. The lower level ones, since they get dmg boost it's a little crazy to let them use everything a spy can pretty much.
Couldnt agree more because a PE setup to use ... for instance a disruptor still has more resist then the spy, and has a higher damage output because of ....
guess !
THE DB !!!
BTW, DB is very easy to use it has no reticule and only takes 30 mana (lol, less then my defelctor on PE) and it powers all of ur shots therefore making it possible to make more damage in less hits.
It does not promote being skilled it promotes being sneaky.
i would like more classes able to antibuff, would make things more interesting.
again, some of these changes seem to be changes just for the sake of changing something... but again again, if all classes are balanced there's no problem...
Seems quite pointless for KK to post these things since no one can comprehend how they will work together with all the other changes.
Dribble Joy
24-03-06, 20:45
DB wouldn't be an issue if we all played solo. You could easily factor in the DB effect to the offence balancing of that class. The problem comes to when you are in a team.
As for a dizzt PE, he (currently) has equal offence as a dizzy spy (assuming no DB), but still has more defence.
We need the skill, armour and weapons changes as well.
awkward silence
24-03-06, 22:00
Remove DB but keep the stealth... its not really that long anyway. Also... REMOVE PARA! <--- had to :p
Heavyporker
24-03-06, 22:05
How about compromising on this...
The EPU line gets shield-weakening psi modules, that are under the antibuffs..
These shield-weakeners would be within reach of a PE that capped his PSI, and within reach of a mid-range Psi Monk, meaning that one wouldn't have to cap to be of any use in an OP battle, which would be so much better for the game.
Dribble Joy
24-03-06, 22:08
How about compromising on this...
The EPU line gets shield-weakening psi modules, that are under the antibuffs..
These shield-weakeners would be within reach of a PE that capped his PSI, and within reach of a mid-range Psi Monk, meaning that one wouldn't have to cap to be of any use in an OP battle, which would be so much better for the game.
Would you spec epu on your PE so you use mini debuffs at the massive expense of your psi capabilities.
It's like resist psi, sounds interesting, but noone will use it.
What about making the DB slightly different... Not a % of additional damage on a target but for exemple psi spells, on oneself giving the PE the opportunity to do an additional fixed amount of a certain type of damage? Like doing +10 or 20 fire damage each time you fire a weapon or you swing a sword? Only self applicable.
You suddenly transform that taichi double edge sword in a might fire sword...
Another kind of DB to be added in the EPU :) fixed number instead of %
Dribble Joy
24-03-06, 22:32
Interesting, though not that cyberpunky ;).
bah,
I have an instinctive feeling im not going to be impressed with the new balance changes, including what Ive read so far and a simple gut feeling I have :(
Heavyporker
24-03-06, 23:12
yeah, I hate a lot of these suggested character rebalancing ideas, but still, I'm hoping some comments could make people consider some directions that wouldn't make the rebalancing suck as hard.
There is one further thing i would like to say...
I know... I know... We are a minority using the template... But if you remove the DB from the PE... What becomes of our fun little M-C PE using Soulblade + DB or POT + DB...
If you remove the DB from the PE... Then the feeble but playable M-C PE dies away!
So unless you give the PE a bit more strength, or a way to empower the Melee weapons for the few of us having fun with POTs, a rare but enjoyable game class dies away...
Like the tank, the Private Eye would be able to use the heal tool mentioned in the tank post. To reinforce his position as potential supporter, he could also receive access to a remote heal tool. Similar to the heal tool, this tool would heal immediately for a fixed amount. Again, the number of uses over a certain period of time would be limited. This would allow the PE to keep a single person alive during combat.
He could further specialize in team support by skilling the potentially new EPU line, giving him access to small buffs and antibuffs.
To further differentiate him from the spy, the duration of the stealth effect would be reduced for the PE and he would no longer have access to the spy’s specialized weapons.
I think the stealth thing needs to be looked at as a whole and entirely separate from the classes itself.
The main problem I see here is there is no defined role of the PE. I understand that they are supposed to be a jack of all trades, but look at how they are setup and used. Do you really think anyone is going to level up a PE just so they can use non rare weapons mediocre armor, a heal that is not proportional to their own self heal and no ware near as useful as a ppu, and a few low level anti buffs? The proposed changes lack any vision that will get people of a particular play style to roll a PE.
If there are classes that are better at doing everything they do why not just make that class. The idea that they are a jack of all trades should be dropped imho and give them a specialty of some kind, be it as drivers/pilots, be it the anti spy(my personal favorite), whatever... You make a class that has no purpose endgame wise, and frankly no one will play it.
As for db just make db effect only psi damage that solves it in a hurry tbh...
-A
Dribble Joy
25-03-06, 00:34
There is one further thing i would like to say...
I know... I know... We are a minority using the template... But if you remove the DB from the PE... What becomes of our fun little M-C PE using Soulblade + DB or POT + DB...
If you remove the DB from the PE... Then the feeble but playable M-C PE dies away!
So unless you give the PE a bit more strength, or a way to empower the Melee weapons for the few of us having fun with POTs, a rare but enjoyable game class dies away...
Weapon dmg rework?
You are aware that both dex and mc/hc PEs used to be viable without DB? Juts that the skill and other changes have changed things.
Again, assume nothing.
having reading all of the propositions the PE one frightens me the most... the others seem great, all of it, my only reservations for the PE is that they become too vague and lose much and dont gain as much as the others.
bring back the regs for all stealths and drop the spy only tag, i feel that PE's should be able to access the lower tier items that those of other classes can use, yet the PE should also have his own line of weapons, ones that require both STR and DEX, like solo Rhinos etc, i hope the PE doesnt become so JOAT that they become useless.
PE's will have the most to lose and the most to gain, as they have no definitive roles, they stand to lose more than they gain.
Apart from adding the fact that PE's need to become JOAT's again - as now they are almost always only dex based, and as a jack of all trades the PE should be able to specialize in any one series of implants and reach the same max level as he could get on any other stat with a different series of implants. (eg, be able to reach 85 int, con, dex, psi, str, at any one time).
A JOAT doesnt have to have each character setup as that, just as long as each person can choose something completely different, thats all we need as far as that goes.
Otherwise i totally agree with what Comie said and couldnt have put it better myself.
Dribble Joy
25-03-06, 00:42
(eg, be able to reach 85 int, con, dex, psi, str, at any one time).
How do you propose to do that?
60 str, dex, int, con and psi base caps?
Unless you bring in PE only imps/items that boost cirtain skills so they can reach 85 (and also the weapons they could use at 85 wouls allow them to be viable). Which would be plain... restrictive and a bit daft.
How do you propose to do that?
60 str, dex, int, con and psi base caps?
Unless you bring in PE only imps/items that boost cirtain skills so they can reach 85 (and also the weapons they could use at 85 wouls allow them to be viable). Which would be plain... restrictive and a bit daft.
Does that "E.g." not mean Example? Thats what my mum always led me to believe.....
Dribble Joy
25-03-06, 01:07
If you are going to allow PEs to reach any given max skill level (be it 70, 85 or 100) you need to do the things I said. Either change the stat caps to 60 or make an entire line of restrictive PE only imps/items.
There's a difference between joat and able to specialise in all directions. The joat is simulataneous while the latter takes a single path.
In general I don't really want either. If you really want to specialise in a particular playstyle, play a different class, and having true joats is somewhat pointless as noone is really willing to go half way on all aspects of a character's setup and it is dubious whether if they did they would be of any real use.
Having no 'role' is pretty much the role of the PE, he can slot into any area without any great loss and is more suitable to independant actions in or outside a team.
DB wouldn't be an issue if we all played solo. You could easily factor in the DB effect to the offence balancing of that class. The problem comes to when you are in a team.
yeah exactly.
at this point i don't db if im fighting with someone else (non pe), but on my lowtech PE it makes things tougher, for myself.
weapon skill changes weren't mentioned in the first post but they are the number one problem with the PE. I am also concerned PE will have to choose between heal/s/d and buffs?
Does that "E.g." not mean Example? Thats what my mum always led me to believe.....
i think its latin ;)
Think about it a little bit harder DJ.
You dont quite need to do what you said, Some imps with PE only req's may need to be added, and few may need to be restricted from the PE, and a few stats may need altering.
But there are alot of imps out there, most are usefull in some way now, as they would stay part of the mix that would get you to the "max".
Of coarse the max is set by what imps have what req's, bonus/s penalties, just like it is now.
With what i have proposed, it would be a high limit, more like the 100 that you said, meaning that you could specialise, just like now and actually be effective in one area OR be your true JOAT.
Unfortunetaly DJ, i cant see where your arguement is "valid", all things would still be possible.
Just we would be able to to it for all fields, not just Dex based. right now its nigh on impossible to get 90 int on a PE, i think things like that need changing.
~ Ep - It is latin, well its an abreviation of 2 latin words, just like AM/ PM is, I.E. is, etc. but... well you know what i mean!
Dribble Joy
25-03-06, 01:45
In order to get all PEs up to a viable level in any skill with base caps at 60 you need equal availability of imps of the same kind. Which sounds perfectly fine if the only class is the PE, unfortunately, they aren't and giving the right bonii to PEs without adversely affecting the balance of the others is hard if not impossible without PE reqs.
If you keep the caps as they are, then you will need again to have a set ims/items to do it, but in this case some that add more than others. Imps that give +20 psi or more. Again these could have massive balance implications for non PEs, so you either go about it another route or you slap on a PE req.
People seem obsessed with being able to do anything that the other classes can on the PE if they just set them up right, which they should not be able to do, one of the major points of the PE is that they cannot go as far as the other classes. Yes they can specialise, but they will still have to rely on their other skills to back up the lack of extremes in their chosen speciality.
Equally, they should not be able to all things to a viable level in all areas (which is what a true joat is).
People seem obsessed with being able to do anything that the other classes can on the PE if they just set them up right, which they should not be able to do, one of the major points of the PE is that they cannot go as far as the other classes. Yes they can specialise, but they will still have to rely on their other skills to back up the lack of extremes in their chosen speciality.
I agree with this DJ, but with the way the game works, and by the looks of it - even more so - is going to work, PE's dont have anything to back them selves up with so to speak, right now yes they are quite proficient at keeping themselves alive, but that may all change soon.
An example of what i am thinking as far as how restricted PE's are right now is quite obviously the worse choice a PE could make - the APU PE.
In no way even if he could find a way to deal decent damage right now, could he back himself up with anything but death.
I'm just kind of hoping that the PE of the future is able to take on an "any role" approach, rather than being forced into an "I can do all.. very badly" approach.
Dirus.
What makes PEs so powerfull right now is the PSI abilities.
When i started playing jini didnt stop stressing me at how PSU was important on PE and its tru ; the PSI is everything on PE.
I think you should put the DB out of his hand (should be apu imo, and cost 260 mana per cast) give him -5 PSI +5 STR and let them use HC weapons like the RAV/DEV and the blade of ceres.(poison damage is big advantage to melee PEs)
They should also keep the ability to fully cap highest DEX weapons without when they spec everything in PC/TC.
Today and over the next week we’d like to see your feedback about several possible changes. These propositions concern specific aspects of the class roles. We will add more propositions throughout the week.
Like the tank, the Private Eye would be able to use the heal tool mentioned in the tank post. To reinforce his position as potential supporter, he could also receive access to a remote heal tool. Similar to the heal tool, this tool would heal immediately for a fixed amount. Again, the number of uses over a certain period of time would be limited. This would allow the PE to keep a single person alive during combat.
He could further specialize in team support by skilling the potentially new EPU line, giving him access to small buffs and antibuffs.
To further differentiate him from the spy, the duration of the stealth effect would be reduced for the PE and he would no longer have access to the spy’s specialized weapons.
Reducing the stealth effect even more would lead to a useless tool. If you reduce it say by 50%, another idea would be to rise its frequence, but this would mean more stealthwhores. I dont like it.
The idea of the heal tool and remote heal tool is fun. What kind of fixed amount of heal do you have in mind?
As for spy differentiation, this has to be in the form of something like newly introduced gadgets, that will make the difference. Leave access to the whole arsenal possible after ballancing issues of course (meaning that due to complexity, a DB + "spy" weapon Pe must get somewhat more of dmg to the same spy user). We must allow the same freedom we give to monks to decide on their offense/defense skilling to PEs as well, as we have to also gift skill
Hey jabbing my self with a niddle to increase my HP.. seems fitting. have to read up on thie EPU thing
but alot of stuff would gimp a PE... it'd b easier to go Spy then. Strong ass weapons and ability to steath... man PE would die off so fast
All i've read so far was take take take. making me wonder if i should start a new character?
Mmm i think something gone b so messed up i leave. guess my gut like u crAzy but ill wait it out- i am a bit curious
awkward silence
25-03-06, 10:24
Yeah Rage im with you...
I got a gut feeling too that this might be the end of the PE we all know... and im scared to shit. I mean i love my 2 drug non pa judge PE setup. If the PE will have his DEX nefred, forced to choose between buffs, heals and whatever goes to EPU, hell be fucked.
Not saying this all will happen but i love my PE's setup like mad and as long as monks are what they are it cant be overpowered.
Love the changes tanks might get, spies need a boost and monks dont need a change as much as a good well thought nerf. As for my PE, im crappin my pants for him!
Hey jabbing my self with a niddle to increase my HP.. seems fitting. have to read up on thie EPU thing
but alot of stuff would gimp a PE... it'd b easier to go Spy then. Strong ass weapons and ability to steath... man PE would die off so fast
All i've read so far was take take take. making me wonder if i should start a new character?
Mmm i think something gone b so messed up i leave. guess my gut like u crAzy but ill wait it out- i am a bit curious This is only one proposition, and I doubt anyone knows how it will work out together with all the other changes. KK may have made mistakes in the past, but I am confident that Dirus wouldn't let a class get unbalanced.
Would be nice if people stayed open minded with these ideas. Like when someone reads debuffs for PEs they straight away thing that there's going to be Exec/slasher PEs running around with holy antibuff.
A small stealth could be interesting though. Not to be used as something to get out of combat, but something to confuse your opponent. So instead of stealthing for 10 seconds, what could be interesting is to have a stealth effect which last 20 seconds with 2 seconds stealth/2 seconds not stealth. Or 10 seconds stealth with random frequency of apearing and deasapearing. So something like a Blink tool instead of a stealth tool.
It would be quite fun i think!
Hell-demon
25-03-06, 14:44
We don't need a heal tool we are fine with psi heal!
Stealth is fine, it's only 10 secs, while a pe is stealthed you could heal yourself and whack the fucker when he reattacks.
You are making PE's far weaker than they should be.
If anything increase stealth because if most of these changes for classes take place pe's will need to hide :rolleyes:
Dribble Joy
25-03-06, 15:12
(should be apu imo, and cost 260 mana per cast)
DB in the hands of any combat class is a bad idea, it's fine in a team situation, but it (like it does the PE now) overpowers them solo.
But if you balance it solo, then the apu/PE/whatever is underpowered in a team situation.
So if you keep it in the team arena by making it ppu but tl90, then all is good.
ok as i have yet to comment on the pe... here is my 2 cents
basicaly you need them to have there own line of weapons aswell as being able to use other class weapons if your taking the high lvl ones away
these should consist of pistols WITH STR requierments aswell
high dex/weplore for the best of pistols to keep them out the tanks grubby hands (using pe PA), and you keep them out of the spys hand unless the spy specs for higher str
this would also alow spys to spec more str to use these weapons (say 60 str or somthing) which lowers there overall damage output but the increase in strength would give them a defencive bonus
the introduction of STR and DEX based pistols would do the following
alow tanks to gain the lower level of these pistols. giving them a little diversity although due to the low weplore they will never master them
allow pe's to have decent weapons not as powerfull as spy weapons but still pritty good
allow pe's to spec all out for the spy weapons (DONT REMOVE THEM FROM THE PE) but lose there defencive capabilitys
allow spy's to spec for str based weapons increasing the spys defence and decreasing offence
soooo peeps
what do you think???
a line of pistol (or even riful) rail guns that rip ur arm off when using??? ^_^
Dribble Joy
25-03-06, 15:18
Not needed.
You don't need a prof/class req on the weapons to keep them from the PEs and tanks, imp/item changes and wweapon tl changes will do the job.
If you can only add a max of 25 dex, then they only get tl 105 tops, where a spy (with slightly different higher lvl items) might get to 130.
As said elsewhere, I'd really prefer to avoid putting class restrictions on things as possible - that doesnt really effect the KK suggestion (heal tool could have a con req, spys speicalised weapons could just have very high dex reqs).
I fully support the idea of PEs losing DB - this idea initally seemed very forigen to me, as every combat class I have ever played for more than about 15 minutes has been a DB user. But ulitmatley DJ is right - it has such huge implications on team vs solo balance.
EPU - as already said, awful idea and with PE's rather restrictive psi is just going to gimp them. What I'd like is to see a general reassement (read - weakening) of passive psi as a whole. Then adjust PE's stats so that there are a few more things within their reach (Int 60 Str 70 con 60 Dex 70 Psi 40 is my current favourite) - They can be a weak fighter and supporter, a tradeskiller, a pistoler/rifler or a mini tank that way. All the while never doing it quite as well as the "pure" classes, but having a bit of versatility to cover for that.
Defensive fighter could be interesting. If you combine all those ideas you could have a sort of fighter/healer. Sorry for the reference but a sort of paladin :p
But then carefull the PE could come close to an hybrid in a way. But that will not happen due to the instant heal instead of a regen type of heal.
If this is done though, i stress the importance of raising strength, lowering dex a bit and getting the DB away.
Int 60 Dex 70-75 Str 70-75 cons: 60 psi 30-35
So PE will thus become a defensive/survivor fighter, closer to the JOAT idea.
With 70 in both dex and str the PE will have the possibility to have acces to the lower STR and DEX Rares, if in addition he gains the possibility to heal, buff and debuff on the field, the PE will realy become the JAOT on the battlefield. Healing, supporting, trying to survive with its mid weapons the PE could really become interesting if he does that all at the same time. Good at soloing but also interesting to have in a group. The PE could become "bard like" :p
Dribble Joy
25-03-06, 16:56
We have to be carefull with debuffs, like DB and spirit mods, they are fine in a team environvent, but offer the solo char too much.
Heavyporker
25-03-06, 16:58
whoa, wait a minute. DJ, you're actually accepting the idea of the spirit mod coming back?
And here I am thinking you were going to slit your wrists at every mention of the spirit mod.
Dribble Joy
25-03-06, 17:01
whoa, wait a minute. DJ, you're actually accepting the idea of the spirit mod coming back?
And here I am thinking you were going to slit your wrists at every mention of the spirit mod.
The spirit mod was an utter distaster, and it should never come back.
My point is that things like debuffs, spirit mods and DB might work as team items, but they should remain out of the hands of combat players, Ie. PPU only.
Synchronize
25-03-06, 18:15
I have a problem with the proposition
PE will can : Psy heal, Psy buf ,Tank Heal, Spy stealth !
For a JOAT it's a bit too much i think
PE can be level Up realy fast (And i'm not a good player :p ) if they can also have the double heal way and all the possibility (at low and middle level) of other classes we will have a PE-cron because new player will play PE and nothing else !
For me the use of nano-tech MUST be incompatible with the use of PSY.
Please dont balance just the high level but think of the low-middle (peharps thats because i never reach high level ;) )
I dont agree with you syncronise. For me a Jack of all trade is not all the potential different possibilities, but more all the small bonuses that you have through different skills that you can use one after the other to make you win the fight. Since you are not as good as a specialist, you will not be able to kill a tank only weapon wise, you need to use spells, heals and all the different skills that you have to gain the advantage. But for that to be true, you thuse have to remove the possibility of beeing ubber in only one skill, and thus limit the PE on the specialised weapon he can use. But give him the acces to a wider range of weapons and tools. And thus, an equal access to MC/RC/PC and HC weapons, as long as what every other classes can. But, not as well as others.
Plus, not every one around likes to play a Private Eye, and if a PE no longer as access to weapons such as Slasher, Exec, SH and and Distruptor, I dont think it will become PEcron. Additionaly, PEs RP wise are the basic neocron citizen, and thus what most of the city should be composed of! :D
And somehow, PEcron would be more fun than Monkocron in my opignion :D
This would allow the PE to keep a single person alive during combat.
Aswell as keeping himself alive?
Aswell as fighting?
Wouldnt this just mean he was a ppu who can fight.
the duration of the stealth effect would be reduced for the PE
Practically speaking, the PE stealth is ALREADY 5 second's.
Countless times I've died while receiving sweet love from holy lightning's
while already 3-4 second's in stealth and again 3-4 second's before
the stealth ends... What it does, is disabling weapons and healing for
10 second's, and cloak you for 5 seconds.
Maybe it's lag, maybe it's something else, but this is what it is.
I agree with Finl on the stealth.
To synchronise, all those healing abilities, woah! dont forget the other balance changes that will be coming too.
Ever stop to think they might drop the PE'd damage so much that maybe he needs to be almost an uber PPU to compete - not that thats what will happen - but dont think all the things you listed are overpowering, replace the tank heal with a medikit and thats what we have today.
For those suggesting a move toward more STR at the cost of DEX, and especially those talking of str/dex based pistol line for PE's - dont forget that the Tank is most likely to loose 10 PSI and gain that in DEX leaving him him 100 str, 100 con, 80 dex. With that 80 dex now, any tank could in theory cap any pistol/rifle as well as any PE can now, and also cap thier heavy weapons and not lose alot of runspeed.
I just dont believe that with tanks destined to be uber weapon users, that PE's should try to hard to be a "mini tank".
But then i think KK have skills under wrong catagories, IE. construction should be split between DEX and STR, implanting split between DEX and INT, TC under INT, and the list goes on.
Then we could see more int invested into PE's and have them reach places a tank cant, when tanks get extra dex, PE's will just be weak tanks with a bit of PSI.
PE is a fighter/solo class... not another healing/"support 1 other character" class. The one character he should worry about is himself, he should do a med-low to med-high amount of damage, with a med-low to med-high defense depending on the setup. The weapon classes shouldn't be limited to dex based weapons, in fact, it should be in the players best interest to invest points in both dex and str for different weapon classes to obtain the JOATs full potential.
To a certain extent i agree with you Saf.
I would like to see the PE to be as stated, to be capable of doing everything that everyone else can... almost, but just not as well.
If it means we get the capability to heal others and ourselves, and other need our help when a PPU isnt around, so be it.
And as i have said this whole time, yea give us more variety of weapons, i would like PE's - and in the end everyone - to have more weapon choices outside of Dex and Str, but obviously mainly dex, seen as there are 4 combat choices under that one skill.
How could we ever take your word seriously on game-balancing topics when you post things like this :
With that 80 dex now, any tank could in theory cap any pistol/rifle as well as any PE can now, and also cap thier heavy weapons and not lose alot of runspeed.
Now where do you think a DEX tank will get the WEP to "cap" his stuff as good as a PE ??
I really think PE should be able to use CS/rav and equal LV STR weapons, but not have DB.
Then it would make sense to have them use things like slasher/exec as well.
I really think PE should be able to use CS/rav and equal LV STR weapons, but not have DB.
Then it would make sense to have them use things like slasher/exec as well.
You think PE should be able use a CS and RAV like they use a slashy/exe or is that a wind up, maybe I have not read the whole thread or your post properly.
Dribble Joy
27-03-06, 06:07
:p
Remember that the str and psi weapons opperate in a different manner to dex ones die to the relative defences of their user classes. Weapons of the same tl will not do the same dmg/time. psi > str > dex. A HL does more than a CS which does more than a BoH.
PEs can use the lower lvl str weapons and should remain balanced.
Though a TPC is tl 86, the same as a BS, the PE can't (shouldn't) reach the same dmg/freq level, meaning he still gets the same rough dmg output.
The current problem is that a TPC does almost as much dmg as a CS used to do and PEs can use DB. It's only slightly balanced by the fact that it's easy to cap judge/slasher/exec (though it then leaves the wyatt, libby and BS 'useless' without DB, such a mess atm).
You think PE should be able use a CS and RAV like they use a slashy/exe or is that a wind up, maybe I have not read the whole thread or your post properly.
We discussed this alreayd, and I suggested that PEs shouldbe able to reach TL 100ish HC weapons (basically bottom end rares) but just what counts a s a bottom end rare on a tank probably needs reasses, as does the damage they do. Why is the top tank PvP weapon only Tl105? a HC tank wouldnt struggle to cap a TL110 or 115 weapon...
First step toward PE balancing: remove DB.
But the strenght of a PE is that he's a JOAT. He can use str based weapons, dex based and some buff self/def/heal. I'm saying nothing new here.
As for stealth duration... on PE the stealth must be used for 2 purposes: sneak attacks or quick run away from combat. Not stealth whore.
The problem is that SPY use long duration stealth as intended: for snipe or for retreat, cause he cannot stealth whore because of low constitution and resist and heal. The PE instead use stealth for christmas tree lights like effect and disappear and come back while fighting. Reducing the stealth time will give not so mutch time to heal and, as everything esle, you will use a tool thought for SPY but with less effectiveness, as in the spirit of a JOAT
First step toward PE balancing: remove DB.
But the strenght of a PE is that he's a JOAT. He can use str based weapons, dex based and some buff self/def/heal. I'm saying nothing new here.
how come the strentgh of a PE is that he can use str based weapon???? ok with the rest but str based weapons?? which strength based weapon do you refair to?
PE's power is in the fact he can use BOTH psi + guns. Take away his DB module as you say and PE is nothing, or if ballance occurs for this he is like a spy or a tank. That's why DB is needed and thats why it also needs skill to be used
Bugs Gunny
27-03-06, 15:13
Why is it that people who either can't pvp at all on their pes or totaly refuse to pvp because they admit they suck at it are on this thread spamming their "ballancing ideas" like they know all there is to know about pes?
I challenge all of you to public duels, to prove you don't know how to set up a pe and you don't know how to use their weaponranges.
So, DJ this is a public offer for you to prove your pe's setup and pvp skills to back up everything you know about pes.
:p
Remember that the str and psi weapons opperate in a different manner to dex ones die to the relative defences of their user classes. Weapons of the same tl will not do the same dmg/time. psi > str > dex. A HL does more than a CS which does more than a BoH.
PEs can use the lower lvl str weapons and should remain balanced.
Though a TPC is tl 86, the same as a BS, the PE can't (shouldn't) reach the same dmg/freq level, meaning he still gets the same rough dmg output.
The current problem is that a TPC does almost as much dmg as a CS used to do and PEs can use DB. It's only slightly balanced by the fact that it's easy to cap judge/slasher/exec (though it then leaves the wyatt, libby and BS 'useless' without DB, such a mess atm).
The TPC does same damage as a CS??????!!!!! ARE YOU NUTS?
So every tank is stupid for using CS, they can just use a TPC
Please when you pick the glove Winnoc threw you, just use a TPC you will rip him apart. Put a DB on him an he'll die in 4 shots :rolleyes:
how come the strentgh of a PE is that he can use str based weapon???? ok with the rest but str based weapons?? which strength based weapon do you refair to?
PE's power is in the fact he can use BOTH psi + guns. Take away his DB module as you say and PE is nothing, or if ballance occurs for this he is like a spy or a tank. That's why DB is needed and thats why it also needs skill to be used
I'm not referring on something as it is now, but on something as it's supposed to be after the balancing work. PE must be able to use most of type of weaepons and enough psi spells. Apart from DB :)
Why is it that people who either can't pvp at all on their pes or totaly refuse to pvp because they admit they suck at it are on this thread spamming their "ballancing ideas" like they know all there is to know about pes?
Maybe some ppl are trying to discuss all this balance stuff PvE wise also.
PE's power is in the fact he can use BOTH psi + guns. Take away his DB module as you say and PE is nothing, or if ballance occurs for this he is like a spy or a tank. That's why DB is needed and thats why it also needs skill to be used
If you seriously need a DB to kill someone on a PE then u shouldn/t be playin a PE...the only time a DB is really necassary for a PE is when u are usina Wyatt Earp a Libby and MAYBE a judge...but even wit those if u spec right u would still be able to kill someone eventually witout a db...specially the judge...how do I kno this...cuz I have done it before many times on my PE...I barely eva used a DB when I played my PE..the only time I would use ti is if another PE would cast it on me...and sometimes I wouldnt even use it then so when I beat him I could sit there and laugh at his patheticness for DBin and STILL losin...so I agree wit all of the ppl who say get rid of the DB...it will make a PE a more challengin class and I like a challenge....
Rox Your Sox
If you seriously need a DB to kill someone on a PE then u shouldn/t be playin a PE...the only time a DB is really necassary for a PE is when u are usina Wyatt Earp a Libby and MAYBE a judge...but even wit those if u spec right u would still be able to kill someone eventually witout a db...specially the judge...how do I kno this...cuz I have done it before many times on my PE...I barely eva used a DB when I played my PE..the only time I would use ti is if another PE would cast it on me...and sometimes I wouldnt even use it then so when I beat him I could sit there and laugh at his patheticness for DBin and STILL losin...so I agree wit all of the ppl who say get rid of the DB...it will make a PE a more challengin class and I like a challenge....
Rox Your Sox
Well, you just take a specific case for your PE and you generalize. Thats a mistake.
DB is indeed needed for a lot of cases. Those that play their PEs knows. And don't limit your vision.
I would safely say that a DB makes so much as 30% more a good pe
Well, you just take a specific case for your PE and you generalize. Thats a mistake.
DB is indeed needed for a lot of cases. Those that play their PEs knows. And don't limit your vision.
I would safely say that a DB makes so much as 30% more a good pe
right.....you do know that a pe can cap slasher and use tl 10 heal, dmg, shelter, and blessed deflector?
PEs need a nerf, their I said it, they are better in almost every way than a pistol spy atm and are overpowerd. After the tl 10 heal change gets put in I would like to see PEs dmg lowered via removing dmg boost and then further changing things so they can't use slasher and other high tl weapons.
People and skill aside (yes its nice bugs beats people with low tl weapons) why should PEs cap the highest tl pistols, and get db and a better heal than a spy has on top of it.
Edit: I know not all PEs use this weapon, but the same could be said for any class, I could make a hybrid setup that sucks utter balls and needs all the advantadges a hybrid has to offer, that doesn't change the fact that hybrids need a nerf.
@clobber
i think u got it right what i say is let PEs use CS/RAV and equal STR mel weapons, but take the DB away.
i think the slasher is comparable to CS in terms of viability for pvp.
but right now you can use the slasher + DB and you can hardly use the CS (unless you use nightshade + HERC)
see my point ? PEs are jack of all shit ATM.
And anyways DB is far from being a "passive" module pfff.... wrong design.
But the defensive PE should take as much damage from the slasher then a slasher PE takes from a Pain easer...
(given they have half decent setups)
No DB, and good balance, how about it ?
And @bugs, go make ur ego-duel-BS on another thread plz, dont spam this thread with useless BS like you usually do.
thx.
And it seems to me that you guys (KK) is planning a whole re design of the PPU modules.
Great.
Now put DB and PARA where they belong, in APU.
@jini, this is why i think that NOT USING DB takes a bit more skill : you have to hit more.
Lets say a judge shot will do 30 damage to a target, and lets say that DB makes you do +33% damage.
(those are all random numbers but their accuracy wouldnt change anything to the point.)
So with a DB ur burst now does 40 damage to the same target.
Now lets say the target has 400 HP.
2 things we can point :
-to make 400 damage without DB you need to hit 13.333...
-to make 400 damage with DB you need to hit 10 shots.
(if you add DB youve had to hit a total of 11 times)
(that DB in the example does a total of 100 damage in 1 hit. this is probably accurate ingame info the +33% but even at +15% its around 50 damage in nw hit.)
so you still need to land less hits with DB, and DB itself is only 1 hit, has no reticule and cost less to cast then a PE deflector (blessed).
Even if on game the DB does smaller % damage i dont think itll change much to the fact that you do more damage in less hits with the DB.
RogerRamjet
27-03-06, 20:39
And it seems to me that you guys (KK) is planning a whole re design of the PPU modules.
Great.
Now put DB and PARA where they belong, in APU.
Oh god, did you say that?
So first your char gets a Para, then DB, then HAB, then holy lightninged to death?
To some people "balance" means "ask for whatever you want, the skies the limit".
Roger, with proper designs like :
-DB/PARA/HAB all equal TL and cost 260 mana to cast.
-limitations of mana pools based on those mana cots.
They would only have to limit it so no one can cast 2 of those spells back to back.I think right now the mana caps somewhere around 415...
260+260 = 520
even while taking boosters you have a hard time casting 2 HABs in a row ATM.
small adjustment (reduce mana pools, at same time put PSI back inline weapon/reload wise)
then no apu could ever para+db+hab and still expect have mana to cast HLs...
in fact the whole para+DB+HAB would take around 12 seconds to do with the settings we have ATM.
with the same settings we have ATM, it takes around 4 seconds to HAB+PARA+DB someone because the HAB and PARA can be done simultaneouly on the same target.
That would tone down the "random ppu" in OP war obviously : you cant expect to just run around ppl para+db like ppus actually do, youd need a ppu.
Overall outcome : less para, less DB, harder to play APU.
think about it twice man.
RogerRamjet
27-03-06, 21:04
Overall outcome:- More APUs, more PPUs to anti para/db.
Haha right and APUs won't be more powerful than PEs are now.. O_o
DB should stay with PPUs, as should para. Why? Because it is (whether you like it or not) a PASSIVE MODULE. You can't kill someone with para and DB on their own. It plays a part in the horific death of people everywhere, but it aint doing shit without the damage behind it. Passive. Module.
Strife is right, people are seeing this as a time to get all their little comments in about classes that won't be listened to any other time, so they spam it here trying to convince KK it's the right thing to do just because of technicalities like word meanings or what the fuck ever they want to try and pull.
[edit]
I garauntee this would massively increase the amount of APUs at an opwar.
Well, you just take a specific case for your PE and you generalize. Thats a mistake.
DB is indeed needed for a lot of cases. Those that play their PEs knows. And don't limit your vision.
I would safely say that a DB makes so much as 30% more a good pe
as I said in my last post...if u need a DB as a PE then u shouldnt be playin a PE...ask jiga and Bugs...of course a DB makes it easier to kill an opponent but they as well as I kno a PE can easily kill someone one on one witout a DB...jini if u are dependent on ure DB as a PE then go to another class plz u shouldnt be playin a PE....but back on topic...PE's shouldnt have a DB...
And it seems to me that you guys (KK) is planning a whole re design of the PPU modules.
Great.
Now put DB and PARA where they belong, in APU.
TBH....DB and PARA shouldnt be on an APU either....I wish they just be taken out of the game....but hell for fucks sake if u are goin to keep them in the game...fuck RP factor put them on like a tank or spy or sumthin so we see more of those in op wars...which of course that wouldnt work either cuz then they would have a major advantage in one on one...so back to my first request...and that of many othas....just remove the damn spells...ffs....
Its true if theres anyone I can kill with a DB I can kill them without it.
However since im a Judge pe when I dont have DB and im fighting a blessed hyb for example, I struggle big style.
as I said in my last post...if u need a DB as a PE then u shouldnt be playin a PE...ask jiga and Bugs...of course a DB makes it easier to kill an opponent but they as well as I kno a PE can easily kill someone one on one witout a DB...jini if u are dependent on ure DB as a PE then go to another class plz u shouldnt be playin a PE....but back on topic...PE's shouldnt have a DB...
If you want you can ask them. In the mean time I would suggest you start a new PE and learn how to play him this time. If you dont use DB go play a spy and stop preaching us how to play classes you dont even know.
Furthermore, Iam a dedicated OPfights PE as well as a pvper... need I say more? now back on topic... what was the topic? PE w/o been able to use DB = useless PE. In an OP fight, again, no DB PE is more than useless.
That doesn't in any way mean that PEs post-balance would be overly weakend without DB. In fact, at the moment DB makes balancing PEs harder. Pes use lower TL weapons than spies or tanks right, so do less damage? In return they get higher defences. But oh wait, then the PE DBs and gets his damage back up to Spy/Tank level... yet still keeps his higher defence.
Now, in reality, DB takes time to cast, can be missed and can be countered, but its still and upsetting factor. I play two characters who are pretty much reliant on DB. I've never really played a non-db combat char. But I'm still not entirely averse to it ending up PPU only, say. Especially as balancing with DBs actually makes PEs WEAKER in op-war settings.
RogerRamjet
27-03-06, 23:11
The formala changes from NC1 --> NC2 bawked PE DB.
In NC1 you had PE PEs, high defence, low psu, DB wasnt effective. Same with all rifles PEs, and some pistols. Now you can cap a judge, have great defence, and get good freq on a DB.
In an OP fight, again, no DB PE is more than useless.
What about the tanks then ??
I mean most PEs use weapons that does about the same amount of damage of the tank's weapon.We still cant say that tanks are useless... or spy even a lot of PEs use SPY weapons.
And what if PE get access to CS ??
Would you still think hes useless for OP ??
Bugs Gunny
27-03-06, 23:36
PE with CS is overkill, after the HL it's the highest dammage gun ingame which actualy hits.
its possible atm, just not very good, nightshade and all -
ok drug flashes every 3mins but hey, its all fun - lol
PE with CS is overkill, after the HL it's the highest dammage gun ingame which actualy hits.
What about the dizzy, healing and first love ?
Oh and the slasher and the exec.
All those weapons can prolly put the same amount of damage on ppl over same time, yet we can use them with a 1 DEX drug setup.
We need 4 STR durgs to use CS (including rare drop one)
And if u read correctly i praise for the NO DB PE that could use CS.
If you want you can ask them. In the mean time I would suggest you start a new PE and learn how to play him this time. If you dont use DB go play a spy and stop preaching us how to play classes you dont even know.
Furthermore, Iam a dedicated OPfights PE as well as a pvper... need I say more? now back on topic... what was the topic? PE w/o been able to use DB = useless PE. In an OP fight, again, no DB PE is more than useless.
so what is a pistol spy supposed to do in an op war? Both of you can say....cap a slasher, exept you have db and a tl 10.
Balance means balancing classes, not nerfing all classes besides your own.
Bugs Gunny
28-03-06, 06:11
Kame, a good cs tank will kill any good dizzy or first love pe. Ask smurfis to fight one and you'll see. A CS does by far the most dammage.
That doesn't in any way mean that PEs post-balance would be overly weakend without DB. In fact, at the moment DB makes balancing PEs harder. Pes use lower TL weapons than spies or tanks right, so do less damage? In return they get higher defences. But oh wait, then the PE DBs and gets his damage back up to Spy/Tank level... yet still keeps his higher defence.
Cmaster listen to what you are saying: 1. you imply PEs are not ballanced and that they need to be ballanced, meaning nerfed. 2. to do this you also need to take DB module away from them. So you mean PEs require nerf+no DB
The PE has to be that kind of factor that all others are ballanced. You all attack the most ballanced character ingame atm. The PE needs his high defenses, combined with lower offense, lower as in a little bit lower than spies and tanks, but when DB comes to play he must be on par with them or a tiiny bit higher. DB costs PSU to be able to shoot fast and special setups. It doesnt fall from the skies and is for the skilled ones. Therefore the reward for using it is what I said. In short, with it the PE must remain the king of duels.
Now, in reality, DB takes time to cast, can be missed and can be countered, but its still and upsetting factor. I play two characters who are pretty much reliant on DB. I've never really played a non-db combat char. But I'm still not entirely averse to it ending up PPU only, say. Especially as balancing with DBs actually makes PEs WEAKER in op-war settings.
Not only weaker, but useless and very dull. And if you ask me why do I choose playing a PE when I can go spy and be 3 times more usefull (pokes+hacks+fight)
For all those wannabie PEs, I suggest you try your current "Godly" setups and ask from Smurfis or ReX Condo to show you how a tank fights and what it means when someone is using a CS the way it meant to be used. Of course on the other hand, you have all made monks (hybrids apus or ppus) and melees which imo is what started it all
Dirus.
What makes PEs so powerfull right now is the PSI abilities.
When i started playing jini didnt stop stressing me at how PSU was important on PE and its tru ; the PSI is everything on PE.
I think you should put the DB out of his hand
They should also keep the ability to fully cap highest DEX weapons without when they spec everything in PC/TC.
So a class who only has 80% of the DEX that a Spy has should be able to keep up with a Spy in terms of using the highest DEX items?
Arguments like this will get you basically know where in terms of sympathy from me. You want the best the DEX has to offer, roll a Spy.
The fact the PE can reach Spy levels with Dex weapons is exactly why the DB on the PE is an issue. The DB is not the issue. It's an amplifier of the issues only. With the current DEX weapons going to TL115 a PE should rightly only be able to reach TL92 if you want to keep that 80% difference alive, anything after that is just encroaching on the Spy's territory more then proper balance should allow, and thats with allowing the PE's to push DEX as far as a Spy, which by rights they shouldnt be able to do as well.
But thats just my view on it all. And I don't care for arguments based on current issues like TL92 vs TL115, to me current ingame imbalances when it comes to weapons dmgs is null and void, they're being changed and brought more inline with each other. Things like Judges or X-Bows dont exist ok?
I think it was tl100( the judge) Dirus, not TL92. That's at least what I allways believed it was meant to be. And yes I dont understand how, even when you guys explaining to them that its gonna be an entirelly different ball game they still stick to sexbows and the like.
Boyzz, you got upto 3-6 months of gaming with neocron as you know it, after that its my guess we will all miss the NC2, just like most miss NC1 even though Reakktor claims otherwise. Ofcourse I do hope we wont...
Bugs Gunny
28-03-06, 06:55
If xbow get removed from pes i want a pa that looks like the launcher guy for woc pes.
And i'll do just fine with a tl92 if i can still keep my db.
And yes, judge is overpowered for its tl and ease of capping.
All the ideas dirus has should be put on the testserver, then we can all go at it and he can see where it all needs finetuning.
Even if it means the death of the pe as dueling king, all i want to see is opwars with all classes and vehicles used.
Don't make a tool for hacking, kinda kills the whole atmosphere and effect with PSI use. PEs using PSI makes them a bit cooler.
I think it was tl100( the judge) Dirus, not TL92. That's at least what I allways believed it was meant to be. And yes I dont understand how, even when you guys explaining to them that its gonna be an entirelly different ball game they still stick to sexbows and the like.
Boyzz, you got upto 3-6 months of gaming with neocron as you know it, after that its my guess we will all miss the NC2, just like most miss NC1 even though Reakktor claims otherwise. Ofcourse I do hope we wont...
I never said the Judge was TL92, those two references where completely different. With the TL92 references i was dealing on a TL to TL basis against a Spy. With the Judge/X-Bow reference I was more or less referring to the fact that I really don't care about the names, the only thing I'm interested in is the TL ratios. To me nothing has a "name" its all TL's.
If xbow get removed from pes i want a pa that looks like the launcher guy for woc pes.
And i'll do just fine with a tl92 if i can still keep my db.
And yes, judge is overpowered for its tl and ease of capping.
All the ideas dirus has should be put on the testserver, then we can all go at it and he can see where it all needs finetuning.
Even if it means the death of the pe as dueling king, all i want to see is opwars with all classes and vehicles used.
Bugs atleast seems to understand what I'm saying.
I never said the Judge was TL92, those two references where completely different. With the TL92 references i was dealing on a TL to TL basis against a Spy. With the Judge/X-Bow reference I was more or less referring to the fact that I really don't care about the names, the only thing I'm interested in is the TL ratios. To me nothing has a "name" its all TL's.
Yes I was also refering to TLs, or as in damage per TL and for that. After all it's all a question of ballance in the sence of offense/defense and complexity(or skill if you like) on how you use your potential to get the said defense/offense levels BUT
There will ALLWAYS be AN exception to the rule ;p and that will be -what else- the crossbow, or better sexbow :p... goes without saying rofl
awkward silence
28-03-06, 07:46
I think the problem is not that the PE can reach the high dex weapons but that he has the DB.
Again this is a question we can argue... upto TL92 with the DB or the current setting (can reach any dex rare) without the DB. I believe the latter is best. Easier to balance anyway.
Mind that i believe the x-bow is the problem with the x-bow PE, not the PE. Ive played against EXE (TL 112?) and Slasher (114?) PEs. I think a TL 100 setup is in par with them because the pe has it a bit easier to use a Moveon and a PPR.
A TL 115 PE is equal imo to a TL 100 PE. Is the PE overpowered against other classes(there are the blessed and APU hybs)? Ill say what many have said before... Its the PSI that makes the PE strong,balance that (mainly the DB).
I think the problem is not that the PE can reach the high dex weapons but that he has the DB.
Again this is a question we can argue... upto TL92 with the DB or the current setting (can reach any dex rare) without the DB. I believe the latter is best. Easier to balance anyway.
Mind that i believe the x-bow is the problem with the x-bow PE, not the PE. Ive played against EXE (TL 112?) and Slasher (114?) PEs. I think a TL 100 setup is in par with them because the pe has it a bit easier to use a Moveon and a PPR.
A TL 115 PE is equal imo to a TL 100 PE. Is the PE overpowered against other classes(there are the blessed and APU hybs)? Ill say what many have said before... Its the PSI that makes the PE strong,balance that (mainly the DB).
Again you're using the reference that a PE using the highest DEX items is not unbalanced. You're ignoring the imbalance between 2 classes, one of which rightfully should be stronger but isnt.
Dirus is right...the PE should not be able to use the higher dex weapons...the tl 100 one At the most is wut a pe should be able to use...and if we had to resort to tl 92 weapons then the db would need to stay on the PE but as it is right now the DB needs to be removed...and im sorry jini if u have to rely on a DB to help u win the battle...then u have already lost tbh...
Bugs Gunny
28-03-06, 09:21
And who says the db has to stay?
That's only if you look at it with the idea that things will stay 80% the same.
What if somehow all the weapons get ballanced?
Imagine a steady line for dammage done alongside the steady line of weapon tl's.
Because that's NOT what is going on right now. When you stick that dammage done line next to the tl line for the weapons you'll see amazing stuff happen, like the tl92 pulse being quite good, the tl83 fusion pistol rather sucks, and the tl80 one is just not even worth salvaging into parts.
There's also the thing that cannons do far more dammage in their nonrare versions than the other weaponlines.
Stuff like psi attack 2 being just plain ridiculous etc.
I kind of like the whole from the ground up idea, where you start by ballancing the weapons, making new armors (hey, didn't they say visible armor back in nc1?), and then gadgets and new stuff to differentiate between classes.
The way i see it is if you strip down the whole neocron and pvp thing to basics is we might as well all be running around as a circle on the screen with a retice to target other circles and dammage pops off when we click.
In essence we are all alike, but it's just the props like what a character looks like, how he goes about defending himself, attacking people, the animation of the dammagedealing weapon, armor etc that's different.
Then on a second layer you diferentiate between roles and certain combinations of classes in pvp, give them roleplay items and skills.
Who gives a shit what happens to their class if it's ballanced?
In the end the good pvpers will still win the fights, the people who study setups and tune their characters will allways have an edge over those that just slap on some armor and pick up a storebought gun.
I am one of those that spent the first 2 years in neocron constantly getting my ass kicked, then i started studying something i now call "FOOK-YIU", the neocron art of war.
The rules might change but the essence remains, so fook-yiu all and i'll see you on the new battlefields.
And who says the db has to stay?
That's only if you look at it with the idea that things will stay 80% the same.
What if somehow all the weapons get ballanced?
hmm funny i didnt really say i wanted a DB on a PE so i dunno where ure gettin that from...yea I said if we have to resort to the tl 92 gun then keep it...but u kno wut fuck that....pes shouldnt have db's at all..they are a fuckin middle man...and bugs goin on a tantrum about how u sucked and now u made a "art of war" in nc isnt goin to help the balancin much...but im glad u found ure "art of war" i guess :rolleyes:
Bugs Gunny
28-03-06, 09:42
That was thrown in for style and humor.
But these threads are just plain meaningles, they should have come after the testserver has been up for 2 weeks.
Right now all i see is people doing a lot of guessing and a lot of bitching.
I don't realy care which class i have to play as long as i enjoy playing it, the only thing i feel funny about is removing my makeup in the mirror after i have logged on my man who wears a dress (monk), but i'm sure others enjoy that class.
Oh, and btw, i'm thinking of totaly changing my playing style after the ballancing, it's time for something "different".
I dont mind DB on a Judge PE for example, slasher and exec PE's with Damage boost however is a problem.
People also dont seem to remember the DB isnt just an insta boost of damage to the character, usually because of the PE's lower PSI Damage Boost takes a while to cast, it also doesnt respond too well to running.
Theres countless times ive been in 1vs1 or 1vs2 situations and ive been brought down to near half health because ive had to stop and let the DB cast, plus if I miss the cast then thats even worse.
Theres too much of a wide spectrum of armour and resistance values for anyone to be happy with DB on a Private Eye, another problem with how this game is over-complicated in its character setups.
Bugs Gunny
28-03-06, 09:59
I tend to use a db when i want to keep track of someone that i know will stealth and i use it on ppus too when we have 2-3 fighters going after him nibsheltering and nibhealing.
In nf i use it a lot too, but other than that it's not worth to spend your time on, since most people cary antidrugs and the smart ones allready pop them when they see you start to cast it.
These forums and posts of players only serve the purpose of a little bit of brainstorming, since after ballancing nothing will stay the same. I have said it from day1: we must draw some basic lines as to what some characters do and what they don't, and then we proceed with the details.
For me what Allways differentiated the PE from the rest of the bunch, was its ability to DB. Only him was at once the only available option besides ppu to use it, and before hybrids ever existed. Complexity using it, alongside with sacrifices you need to take for it, justifies an overshoot in the damage output. In short to break it down into simple pieces, if I had to choose from:
a. PE: hi defenses, upto TL92-100 damagewise, NO DB and,
b. SPY: low defense, All guns and tradeskills AND gadgets
supposing both were ballanced with equal chances to win, I would have picked up the spy period
For all those claiming they dont need DB to win a duel and blablabla I challenge them to participate in an OP war. I can see no other reason but that they play the usual hybrids/monks/melee and they take a lot of beating from crossbow pes.
@her.: Im happy that you are sorry for me mate because you really have no idea how a PE is meant to be played. You just chosen to be another one of teh monks. That seemed to be a wise choice for most than a year tbh, but now especially after that "damned" HH nerf patch future doesnt seem very bright does it? Not to mention all those b.a.d sexbows... in short, I won't allow an overpowered ppu to give me instructions about how to play MY PE and I do wonder why didnt bugs noticed that already :lol:
Jini - you misunderstand me. I wasn't suggesting that the PE is unbalanced (although the plethroia of them at the moment and their dominance in solo combat - especially raiding - says something). What I was suggesting is that every class will need changing to fit into the new balance structure, and regaurdless of their current situations should all be of equal value in the new structure. My attitude is that DB makes it harder to fit a combat class in, both because it means they get a potentially (but not necissarily) greater damage output in solo combat than their weapons would suggest, but also because once a support class that can DB gets invloved, their effectiveness becomes proportianatley less.
Dirus seems to get where I'm coming from here.
I know you are not claiming that PEs are unballanced.
But take out the DB of them and you take out the spice in neocron.
It just gives a small extra boost giving a little unballance to everything.
I never said the Judge was TL92, those two references where completely different. With the TL92 references i was dealing on a TL to TL basis against a Spy. With the Judge/X-Bow reference I was more or less referring to the fact that I really don't care about the names, the only thing I'm interested in is the TL ratios. To me nothing has a "name" its all TL's.
Then I have an Idea but most fo the PEs will shoot me. What unblances PE today, in matter of TL are drugs...
Remove drugs or make their effect tougher. If a PE wants to reach the state of a spy sure... But then this has to be for 5 minutes and not more! Put an effects on drugs so that once it has been taken, it has no further effect for an hour!
A PE would then be a god... But who would want to be a god for only 5 minutes? He?
In my opignion, drugs have to be little bonuses to use better weapons but only once in a very long while! So when things really are out of hands you take a shot of whatever substance and start kicking ass... But not for long! And have a very tough effect afterwards! Not the blurry screen which can be taken out using deco/reco... Something which lowers you health and skills for sometimes!
Remove or tweak drugs and the PE becomes far less powerful!! We should take this into concideration!
Bugs Gunny
28-03-06, 13:03
I'm almost speechless........
Now i know why some people are so easy to kill in pvp.....They probably can't tell the front from the back of their gun.....
What the hell is wrong with you people?
Drugs are the bread and butter of PvP for PEs.. And a massive part of Neocron, as Nid has already said.
I'll tell what's the matter with them.
They have played monks for too much time. they have lost all their skills, that's what's wrong with them. Now that the monk-o-cron reign comes to an end they start to feel cold chivers (if that's how it's called)...
Bugs Gunny
28-03-06, 14:22
Nono, it's because they all play overpowered blacksun pes that don't drug :angel:
Dribble Joy
28-03-06, 14:26
I dont mind DB on a Judge PE for example, slasher and exec PE's with Damage boost however is a problem.
If we start saying that DB can be used for a range of wepaons but not another, not only do we have the problems of the whole combat class using DB and finding a way to put reqs on it, you also end up with a massive skew in the weapon dmg/tl.
Keeping it simple and allowing all chars to benefit form DB equally is what we need.
People also dont seem to remember the DB isnt just an insta boost of damage to the character, usually because of the PE's lower PSI Damage Boost takes a while to cast, it also doesnt respond too well to running.
Theres countless times ive been in 1vs1 or 1vs2 situations and ive been brought down to near half health because ive had to stop and let the DB cast, plus if I miss the cast then thats even worse.
DB is castable at or near freq cap, so walk casting is possible.
Theres too much of a wide spectrum of armour and resistance values for anyone to be happy with DB on a Private Eye, another problem with how this game is over-complicated in its character setups.
Probably not going to like the new armours then :p.
NC can be complicated or not. We do need far less complication for the n00b experience and the general learning curve. But you can go to any depth you want at the high end. You don't have to sit there with excel, pen and paper and a skill manager unless you really want those extra 2 points.
Yea, right. And it's those 2 extra points the reason why smurf wins all of you. He took skillmanagers, neoskillers, excels, mathematica, blackboards, and after a lot of number crunching including differentials he finally FOUND those 2 missing point !!!111onetwo now he is invincible :lol:
Dribble Joy
28-03-06, 15:08
Exactly. You don't need to go into that depth, making the game still playable from a basic knowledge of the mechanics.
Bugs Gunny
28-03-06, 15:12
Jini, FOOK-YIU man, FOOK-YIU :D
I think smurf is one of those people that would win most fights even without armor on, who needs armor when you move in such a weird pattern that most people miss more than half the shots they would have landed on others , and on the other hand hits with 95% of his own.
@ jini - well im sorry u think I play monks all the time jini...and thank you for tellin me wut i play when u hav no idea....and the funny thing is I only briing a PE to op wars....jsut like u....so ha...i guess ure lil accusation is totally false....sux for u... just unlike u i kno how to play a pe and I dont have to db the person every second I get....and in an op war situation....im usually not fightin someone solo cuz in an op war sit it is usually a team strategy so I dont have to db someone since im not stupid enough to run off by myself and get myself killed...but in an op sit if i am alone for a sec and someone who is holy buffed comes up to me and tries to kill me then I may use the db...but it might not even be worth it if they are hurtin me...the best thing for me is to hurt them back....in which I do....dont tell me I dont kno how to play a pe because I do very well....i just dont need a db at all times to play a pe....and in an op war situation I dont see why u would just sit there and db everyone in the first place....thats the gay monks job...ure job is to deal dmg...which I and I hope every otha pe does...
but neway back on topic...I hope that the game get redone so the fact whether the pe has a db or not doesnt really matter...and in fact there was a post that Hog read that i was readin that said say the DB is 30% dmg....then make it to where u have to cast the db three times like on mobs...first cast 10%, 2nd cast 20%, and third cast 30%...this way the ppl that want their precious db can keep it...but at a price...if they want the same advantage they had before...then they would have to sacrifice sittin or standin to cast the DB three times instead of one...in which would a lot of dmg could be done on them when they finally get the third cast off...so this way if they get the firsty cast off they could still get a slight advantage but not as much as they used to and it should be like that for the ppus as well...so it is harder to get the instant 30% advantage of a DB...u kind of got to work for it....
yea im not good wit paragraphs and shit.....and yea smurf is just a good player all aorund those two etra points doesnt really give him the edge over others....he already has the edge over others wit out those two points tbh...
edit: split it up...hope thats betta
Dribble Joy
28-03-06, 15:16
Paragraphs... sentences.... SANITY!!!!
Note down the character names of this smurf person so I can avoid him please :p
Bugs Gunny
28-03-06, 15:24
Well, Smurf is the only person in neocron that truly scares me.
On a very very good day i think i might beat him if he has allergies and a hangover.
I would love to see him fraps his fights, just to see how he keeps that reticle locked.
Dribble Joy
28-03-06, 15:30
Smurf any relation to rex comndo or slutsumi?
Only person I ever had real problems with back at my peak was slut.
well smurf is good I will give him that...but im not scared of him....i knew he was good when I saw him and DarkH fight and when DarkH dropped smurf still had a quarter of life left...i was like damn...then immediately thought he should fight tuxy...but thats all old times stuff :p
not Rex Condo or Slutsumi...I dont kno Slutsumi but Im pretty sure Smurf fought alongside him on Uranus in the clan NCAT...i could be mistaken but im pretty sure thats tru
Bugs Gunny
28-03-06, 15:33
I dueled darkh right at the start of nc2 in plaza1. He was a nice guy.
God, how i miss my tank. I swear, i'm never getting drugged, drunk and then allow myself access to the login screen for more than 2 seconds.
yea he was a nice guy indeed...i knew him since retail of nc1 and tuxy was even better than he was...but neway lets get back on topic bugs :p and ure right...nuttin will come of these threads if we dont have a testserver to test them out...so until that comes around...all of this on here is heresay...but i still say the 10%, 20%, 30% 3 db castin is a good idea....neone wanna comment on it?
@bugs...or remove it completely....i like that idea best but there are some ppl who need their DB for some reason...so i gave a solution to havin the DB but havin it in a different way so it is harder to get the full advantage of it
Bugs Gunny
28-03-06, 15:43
I think DB should be removed from everyone, along with para (except melee shockers).
braydagner
28-03-06, 16:10
I think DB should be removed from everyone, along with para (except melee shockers).
I had mentioned to someone that removing para besides melee was the best idea, but they said it wasn't logical...as I see, its the only logical thing to do.
I'll tell what's the matter with them.
They have played monks for too much time. they have lost all their skills, that's what's wrong with them. Now that the monk-o-cron reign comes to an end they start to feel cold chivers (if that's how it's called)...
yea because pistol PE with stealth, dmb, x bow, shelter, blessed deflector, basic 3, tl 10 heal. is oh so hard to play. o_O
Get imo PEs need a good nerf just like hybrids and apu ppu teams when this balancing comes out.
Edit: Its quite funny you'd say this too after just having made pages worth of posts desperatly trying to keep DB for PEs.
In my opinion, remove all high level pistols and rifles from PE's (so the highest tl pistol allowed would be the judge), and I think PE's would be satisfactory tbh.
I beat a lot of people on my Judge PE, but then again I see Judge PE's who get beat by everyone else.
Then again Im not counting any mathmatical business in what ive just said, based on the actual logic im probably completely wrong.
Dribble Joy
28-03-06, 16:26
Top tl/weapon PEs should be using is somewhat relative to the postition of the top level and 'common' weapons of the spy and subject to opinion.
If a mid range spy is dex 120 and top is 130-135, then a mid range PE would be about 90-95 and top end 100-105.
Which ever a PE is using is somewhat irrelevant, keeping PEs out of the high end is only about class distinction. What we need to work on is that whatever weapon they use the dmg/defence ratio is right.
Getting the same dmg output on a tl 130 weapon on a PE as on a tl 130 weapon as a spy is fine if the defences end up being equal.
there are some ppl who need their DB for some reason...so i gave a solution to havin the DB but havin it in a different way so it is harder to get the full advantage of it
For example lowtechers and hybrids.
That's a skill/cap position problem though. If they are reworked properly, neither should need it.
RogerRamjet
28-03-06, 16:32
Yeh smurf and slut were in the same clan. But theres always been alot of rumours of slut exploding, hitting people from the top of the CRP hill from miles away with every burst of CS (not even any random blobs missed) for instance.
And smurf is the best pvper ingame. He has the frighteningly high balance of amazing setups and ridiculous aiming.
Hey... I have a slasher PE and I use drugs... Was just making a comment thats all :p
But its true i havn't played Neocron in ages... Just an old fool trying to make some sense...
tl10 heal has completely fucked up PE balance. Anyone not using a very high dmg setup is screwed because they can outheal you :(
Jini your prolly gonna tell me that im a noob and i didnt learn shit in 1 yr but,
Bobby Digi use silent hunter in OP battles, and hardly ever DBs.
When i go in close im usually not getting targeted (as im not a monk) and then i go for target that are already DB/para (not by me !) and shoot them with first love and healing light.
But seriously most times i dont even go in.I just snipe and of course i dont DB.
Dirus im not looking for sympathy but answers on whats gonna happen with the game i play.
Now for the rest i think PEs using all the SPY weapons and some tank weapons make them fun to play.
And you know for most ppl id say that a rare isnt very hard to come up with.
Rares are fun to play with.
Bugs Gunny
28-03-06, 19:25
Kame, sorry to say this but you're also no real expert on pes, you've tried all setups and none seemed to work, and cmon.... a silent hunter pe... yeah that's realy hardcore pvp right there.
You don't use db because you CAN'T.
Rework the damage output of the melee weapons a PE can use then! Because if there is no DB... My POT and my Soulblade are not gonna be as efficient any more!
The DB should stay. The higher TL weapons should leave...
DBing is fun for a PE! Additionaly, lowtechpes love them!
There is one probleme though... I know the longer the more fun... But as any one calculated the duration of a fight between two PEs with wyatts or libbies? The fight can be insanely long... Very insanely long...
awkward silence
28-03-06, 20:14
I think DB should be removed from everyone, along with para (except melee shockers).
Amen!
Well heres my stance.
I don't really care if they can use a DB or not. Letting them keep it means that it'll be a factor in their offense/defense calcs. Most likely it'd go against their offense since using it means they have access to higher defenses. In this sense items that add to offensive skills would need to subtract from skills such as PPU.
To me combinations of items isnt all that big of a deal. With the current system it just means most items need lower bonuses to keep things balanced. It also means that there can be no rewarding those who do want to run one line only, vs those who want to do everyline. Without ways of restricting item combinations, then everything will be balanced as "all around".
Heal strength is not as much of an issue as people make it out to be, the fact there needs to be caps on their heal rates is true. But the only reason a TL10 is overpowered on a PE is due to the defenses already on a PE. The way to balance heals effect on balance is to factor it into the defense of whatever class can reach it. Balance = Dmg done over a set time vs damage absorbed over the same set time. The Dmg done must always be higher then the dmg absorbed, by how much depends largely on how long you want a fight to last. Heals are a part of the dmg absorbed equation.
PE's are going to be the "bitch" class to balance out. The fact they're the 2nd highest in STR giving them access to better armor, 2nd highest in CON giving them more resists, 2nd highest in PSI giving them yet more offense and defense, and 2nd highest in DEX giving them high dmg is what makes them more then any other class a larger factor in the push for restrictions on items ignoring PSI Hyrids that is.
I know people hate restrictions, but the effect the PE's have on what can and cant be done with the other classes really does need a proper way of smacking the PE's back to where they belong. Currently the only real way to do so without restrictions on items is to have it set so that the items just out of a PE's reach get a large jump in their strength. This way of doing it however unbalances players such as a Tank vs a Tank when one is at a PE's level and one is just above too much, think of this like comparing the current non-rare vs the rares in the jumps between effective and non-effective. It makes it so a say Lvl xx/50 Tank is no match for say a Lvl xx/52 Tank.
When it comes to a PE, PC/RC type imps should have a negative on their defensive abilities, If they want to play more towards a Spy type of char, then they should be going that way in both offense and defense. If they want to go HC/MC then it makes sense to allow them more access to STR based armor and more CON type resists. PE's should be about being able to do pretty much anything, but on a slightly weaker scale then the true owners of the combat types. Going towards one line should effect all aspects that the owners of that line have to deal with as well.
That is how i look at things, and where I see the more serious issues are. None of what I say when I'm expressing my views is what is actually garunteed to happen however. I'm only one voice in the debates as to what gets done and how. All I'm doing is trying to shed some light on where I feel the issues are, and what the obsticles are. Basically giving you something to think about when you're discussing things. You can agree with me or not. In the end I'm not the one with the final say, it's all being voted on as a team with the majority winning the debate.
Bugs Gunny
28-03-06, 22:07
The old KK team has clearly proven that they were utterly shit at ballancing.
I like your ideas dirus, even if it means a large kick down to where pes belong.
The only people that will whine and complain for hours on the testserver will be the ones who now leech of the ppu's immortality bonus.
how about makin a db only 1/3 as efffectiove cast on a player so pe's need a good 3 casts to gedt a full strength damage boost
thi gives them team play abilitys but hingers them if ther solo play and its beter to shoot ppl
Bugs Gunny
28-03-06, 22:31
That won't work if Dirus will lower offence and increase defence if db stays, because in those 3 db attempts a target will have taken a pill while shootin you. Nobody is going to spend a minimum of 6-7 seconds trying to db while taking fire for the chance of 30% more dammage later. Hell, i've seen people killed from full health in that time.
Kame, sorry to say this but you're also no real expert on pes, you've tried all setups and none seemed to work, and cmon.... a silent hunter pe... yeah that's realy hardcore pvp right there.
You don't use db because you CAN'T.
BTW the topic between me and jini was : how viable is a PE in OP war w/o DB.
I say it is because i use SH for OP and not need DB.
True that i have a lot of WEP and very little PSU making it for a very slowcast DB.
For close range i rely on first love + HL.
I love loming my PE cuz after awhile you want to try other things.
Besides xbow high tech rifles are probably the highest damage / clip size you can come up with.
You dont need to use a DB if you use those weapons !
Its a waste of time, a FL burst does more damage.
Ask fireproof about the last time he seen bobby digi in NF
That won't work if Dirus will lower offence and increase defence if db stays, because in those 3 db attempts a target will have taken a pill while shootin you. Nobody is going to spend a minimum of 6-7 seconds trying to db while taking fire for the chance of 30% more dammage later. Hell, i've seen people killed from full health in that time.
thats the whole point... its usable but not advisable
maby make it 2 casts to gett full effect, then you can use a 15% or a 30% db stack
or 2 pe's db same time to get a 30% stack
fles are probably the highest damage / clip size you can come up with.
You dont need to use a DB if you use those weapons !
Its a waste of time, a FL burst does more damage.
Ask fireproof about the last time he seen bobby digi in NF
Well at the time i was finishing my setup. I had no runspeed, some recycle, and 115 construct so a tl10 wasent so good. Not to mention it was my first tine dueling with an exe in over a month. You can duel me now though. Im doing much more damage then i ever did with the FL.
Also i usaly dont like dbing becouse i just dont like it, but it is always a good idea to DB someone before shooting them. Makes a huge diffrence. I remember dmg boosting people and using a FL in some duels. The damage was insane. An executioner outdamages it though with its bigger clip though, if the user can hit consistently. Actualy after the switch from FL to EXE again im finding the EXE is tougher. Smaller bursts and im way faster. SOOO much better in large groups or targets that keep clipping though.
Also though this dousent realy ralate just wanted to correct a dumb mistake i made when i said the exe caps at 159 p-c and some insane wep lore. Thats not true, and i have no idea why i thought that. :(
And for damage boost why not just make it only add so much damage to the target then it disapears, like the shelter idea kind of.
Dribble Joy
29-03-06, 05:10
Well heres my stance.
I don't really care if they can use a DB or not. Letting them keep it means that it'll be a factor in their offense/defense calcs. Most likely it'd go against their offense since using it means they have access to higher defenses.
I only have issues with DB on combat classes if the spell remains as is. As I have said many times, balancing them with DB means not only a complete rework of PE offence (unless casting a DB wrecks your defences), but also providing them with a means of using it and not loosing out in the team arena (PE vs tank = equal, PE + PPU vs tank + PPU != equal). Making DB a self cast item could do both. Applying a basic dmg/defence multiplier.
However, that would remove it from the team dynamic and the line of options for the PPU.
Making it PPU only would remove the need for such a massive overhaul and keep team and solo of equal viability for all classes.
In this sense items that add to offensive skills would need to subtract from skills such as PPU.
We have to be carefull here. Having ppu or other psi stat malii needs to be done with care or they can end up horribly restrictive.
Leaving psi/ppu and staying with 'standard' defence modifiers would be easier and probably simpler.
Balance = Dmg done over a set time vs damage absorbed over the same set time.
Yes and no. I'm sure you know what I mean, but lets leave it untill the right time/thread.
As for restrictions, only when and if they are utterly necessary, otherwise allow the skill/item system to do it by default.
I don't really care if they can use a DB or not. Letting them keep it means that it'll be a factor in their offense/defense calcs. Most likely it'd go against their offense since using it means they have access to higher defenses. In this sense items that add to offensive skills would need to subtract from skills such as PPU.
I think that a skill(psi skill) that directly adds to offensive skill is defenitly aggresive.
This way only could it substract from skill such as PPU.
Incorporating the DB in the PE as it allways was is not a big of an issue, as soon as it gives something more compensating for the skill and break in the DoT a PE does, or a hybrid. In OP wars it will create a little but certainly not much unballance, since it will also give others this benfit. This was allways the role of the pe and this is how it was designed.
Kame your role in op wars as a sniper, certainly does forbid the DB, but thats something left for spies. You are holding back your pe if you keeping him behind the lines.
@Fireproof: He has tested at the same character both rifles and now lommed to pistols, so he knows first hand what it means to be slow (rilfes speed penalty) Maybe speed needs another ballance session, because it directly relates to one's deffenses/offfense
Now for DJ, because sometimes logic...
I only have issues with DB on combat classes if the spell remains as is. As I have said many times, balancing them with DB means not only a complete rework of PE offence (unless casting a DB wrecks your defences), but also providing them with a means of using it and not loosing out in the team arena (PE vs tank = equal, PE + PPU vs tank + PPU != equal). Making DB a self cast item could do both. Applying a basic dmg/defence multiplier.
However, that would remove it from the team dynamic and the line of options for the PPU.
Making it PPU only would remove the need for such a massive overhaul and keep team and solo of equal viability for all classes.
You claim you have issues if the DB remains as is, but in a completely and totlaly new game, which, at present not even kk knows how it will become.
I would safely say and correct me if I am wrong that you CURRENTLY have issues with the spell because you hardly use it, because you cant. When I used to fight you in NF, I remember you saying that even using heal was lame in a duel. But then DJ, you have picked the wrong character. You should have picked a tank
Ok agreed for OP it does give a group benefit.
But as solo it gives bigger damage output then a spy on the same weapons and this is completely messed up.
As they said in the very first few posts of this new forum section they want to make the damage dealer chain be like :
APU>SPY>PE/TANK im not sure wich will come trough between the tank and pe.(altough i think it should be TANK>PE)
So if we keep that in mind then there is 2 possible outcome i can see right now :
1-PE loses DB but keep using all rares.
2-PE keep DB and all the lower TL weapons gets a damage/TL adjustment.
The DB is at the center of the question, like the heal and the access to rares.
The DB has a direct influence on the possible damage output so it needs to be taken into consideration and i think a redesign would in fact be better.
EDIT
http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=133016
On another topic i think theres a lot of weapons out there that need a total redesign.
The thunderstrom is a nice example, it has the range of a melee ! :lol:
Also a lot of rare parts are useless like the crahn antibuff or crahn cathars.
A clanmate made me remark that DB takes 30 mana to cast for anyone but anti DB takes like 150 mana.
Then the PARA takes like 150 to cast but the anti para takes 30 mana.... :confused:
Seriously Dirus do you want more examples ?
Do you think it will be possible/viable to balance the game without changing some fundamentals ?
Kame the DB is where it should be and is justified. It's not jus a question of use or ot not using it. It's just not as easy as some may think it is. You need a lot of PSU to be able to cast it fast, you need to aim and it takes a lot of mana for the relatively small mana pool of the PE. All these negative factors are compensated from the effect this does, therefore it should ultimately give an offensive bonus a little bit (5%-10%?) more than a tank using CS for example. You have seen me how Im using it in op fights, I dont just go shooting every red target, I spend more time DBing than using my xbow at times, but at the same time Im not using my weapons as well.
The observations for mana using Para/antiPara spells are in the right direction and for a reason, in an attempt to limit para abuse, which has failed misserably nowadays from the huge numbers of ppus and the invent of the gaya glove :rolleyes:
its still gonna be taken into consideration in the offense calculation.this will lead the designers to limt the PE much more in his choice of weapon.
question is : is it what we want ?
see PEs running around with non rares ?
for some reason it seems like u are the only one who thinks the DB is good and justified...but i think the thing is...no matta wut u say jini....sumthin is goin to happen to where the dmg the pe makes will be a lot less than it is now...wheter they remove DB for pe and pe keep rares or they remove rares and pe keeps db...which i guess would be betta so u could have ure lil pe ppu class in op wars...
I'm persistant, simply because without DB the PE is going to be just like another spy or tank both of which can't access DBs. This will mean the end of the PE, unless something else -which I/we dont know/exists- replaces the DBs and is only meant to be used by PEs. In it's current form the DB with its complexities and the little unballance/benefit it gives justifies the use of PE in op wars
I'm persistant
Thats for damn sure....in all honesty I really could care less whether the PE has the DB or not...because with the reworkin of the weapons...maybe the PE may need the DB....but as of right now..the DB gives a lil more than just a slight advantage to the PE...especially an xbow PE as ureself...but when the reworking of the weapons are made...things will be a lot different I hope...
(...)just like another spy or tank (...)
spy and tanks are good in OP war.
Bugs Gunny
29-03-06, 10:01
The real problem with db is that hardly anybody uses antidbdrugs.
Most cary antipara but they underestimate the importance of taking off db right away.
When i db someone and they remove it with drus i don't even bother to db again, i just don't have the psu to do it.
So many wankers who insist on using xbow with DB against me. It's pretty annoying being on 200 HP by the time they've finally finished lagging through the wall.
Bugs Gunny
29-03-06, 10:36
Giga, you should see what slasher does with DB, tanks dead in 2 clips.
Target legs, first clip in the legs, then rest on torso.
RogerRamjet
29-03-06, 11:19
Thats why i love my PE. They anti-DB, i DB again. Rinse and repeat.
I am amazed how many people don't carry anti db in their quickbelt.
I always do. By the time i get dbed i pop a drug and shoot the stupid pe down to half health. :)
Please use the new proposition thread.
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