View Full Version : Spy Proposition #2
We’d like to see your feedback about several possible changes. These propositions concern specific aspects of the class roles. We will add more propositions throughout the week.
For the Spy we'd like to focus this discussion on possibilites for the nano technology.
First of all we thing it should be usable on the spy himself, so it would be impossible to use this technology on other people. There should only be one effect active at a time, with a limited duration. Each usage would consume a charge of nanites, which would have to be bought like ammunition. It would probably also be linked to a drug flash effect so that constantly switching the nanite effect would be counterproductive. Nanite usage would also override or block PSI spells of the same nature. Due to conflicts with the technology of the stealth tool, the nanites would not work during stealth.
Possible abilities would be like regeneration, either resist buffs or damage shields specific to one damage type, buffs to spy specific skills like pistol+wpl (as suggested by angakok). There could be other, more exotic effects.
I'd prefer to see a focus on exotic effects, rather than lots of replication of psi abilities. So perhaps rather than boosting PC per se, the spy can overcharge his pistol, make himself very fast at the expense of losing healt, etc. Maybe a kit that boosts the damage the spy does for 30 seconds, but then does damage at the end. Etc.
sounds like the Spy is gonna be more from Star Trek the Borg :lol:
i hope this doesnt make him over powered in 1 v 1 battles
More exotic would be cool, expanding on what CMaster said having a "kami-chip-like" effect would be cool e.g. the nanites could work with the implants in a spy to produce higher bonuses from the implants but at the same time weaken the spy as the nanites surge through him/her disrupting the nature of the spy's resistances.
Energy shields would also be nice but these would have 'health' of their own taking all damage untill that 'health' runs out, then the spy is left to his own devices - shields would take time to re-charge (couple minutes?) as well as warm up. I.e. the spy activates the shield but it does not come online for say 30 seconds so its not an instant extension to the spies health. No "god mode" button so tactics would be require to use it. Also due to the nature of it, healing would not be able to penetrate the shield and due to the surge of power around the spy all active heal nanites would be destroyed so it cant be used like the steal tool where people heal and run.
I agree with the first post about not JUST replicating psi effects. I'd also prefer to focus on the "exotic". I'll be working up ideas in the following few hours.
However one thing you said concerns me:
Why do the nanites have to be tied to drug flash?....I don't like this idea.
As far as I understand the psi will be removed to implement tek as a requirement for the nanite tools. Is this correct?
If it is then:
1. I don't mind some duplication of basic psi spells for spies such as healing /shield.
2. You'll need to change the interface for spies to remove the psi pool (or just leave it as 0).
3. I don't like the idea of drug flash. I think it would be a little unfair that the spies only "spell"/"tool" heal gives him flash. Maybe you could restrict drug flash to higher tl nanites or forget about drug flash and only enable 2 nanite effects in place. That way a "heal" could be in effect with one buff.
I don't like the idea of having tek-buffs cancel when stealthed just because you stealthed. Maybe it's because I'm a spy and I like my power. But seriously, and uninfluenced by that fact, I'm pretty sure that would make spies even more weak. psi buffs stay through stealth. If you are going to make tek buffs cancel during stealth then I think the tek buffs should significantly powerful.
I think having nanites cancel psi effect is enough.
If imy assumption is not correct, then drug flash might be ok.
Stealther seeing ability
Perma stealth, but takes time to start using
Anti heal nanites, similar to mosquito
I really like the idea of limiting to 2 tek effects but no flash then cancel with stealth wouldn't bother me so much.
About that perma stealth idea, perhaps make Obilterator perma stealth, but make it not start for a while.
[edit]
Oh and PLEASE don't make these heal nanites expensive like repair nanitse (Jesus Christ...) or as expensive as ammo, not that ammo is expensive, but I don't want to be paying 12k (double the price of the amount of hightec ammo I buy for caving/fighting) every time I want to fight/cave/opwar.
I know we have weplore connected to reticle closing .... but I would like to see a nanite tool that lowers reticle closing time behind the scenes to half of what it currently is. That would be great.
The 1/2 closing time would be calculated AFTER the weplore is considered.
Optical Gun Co-ordination Nanites-
These special nanites connect to the optical cord and the occipital lobe of the brain to streamline and enhance information flowing in. This assistance allows the rifler to take aim quicker and keep a sharp eye out for targets.
<ooc>helps to avoid missed shots due to people clipping around objects before your reticle closes</ooc>
Stealing the post above:
Thermal recognition nanites:
These nanites connect to the retina and sense heat in the visual field. In response they activate and produce colored sillouettes around stealthed and otherwise invisible people allowing them to be seen and targeted.
<ooc>Stealth seeing ability</ooc>
New Biotech/protopharm runner mission:
This mission is so information sensitive that the data itself is encoded in nanites and must be transported within the body of the runner. The nanites are injected upon acceptance of the mission and removed upon completion(delivery).
My suggestions, now also in English:
- IR-vision or something like that to find steathed enemies. (Spy vs. Spy... *grin*)
- since PSI is gone, we'll need a new kind of healing. This could be the "small brother" of the Tanks new healing tool or it could "simply" be an injection of regenerative nanites.
- Injection of Adrenaline. This would increase HTl, ATL and END while perhaps reducing poison resistance. (Since the whole metabolism is powered up, poison is distributed in the body faster. As a "bonus" again, the duration of posion might be reduced a tiny bit, in case you manage to survive...)
- different boosters to enhance different resistances. All of them should also give a bonus to HTL.
- Waste disposal Nanites. They would crack up waste products of drug use and would prevent or at least strongly reduce the effects of drug flashes. (Finally you can drug without regreting it! Even without using an exploit!)
- Make the spy "poisonous". If the spy uses a melee attack, usually a blow, but might even be a bite or whatever, the target is poisoned. (The posion might have side-effects like reduction of movement speed or draining psi-energy.) While this effect would be very "cool", i also admit that in practical in-game use it probably would be quite worthless. (Unless it could be combined with stealth to do hit-and-run poisoning.)
- Would there be enough water and would you be able to drown in there, it would be nice to have nanites which give oxygen to the body. With current game mechanics, this idea is void, though.
And last not least, i vote against having drugflashes from use of nanites.
Someone brought this up on another thread somewhere:
Orbital tracking supression:
These nanites inhibit the transmission of yoru identification information and other location trackers and allow for a truely stealthy approach while still visible.
<ooc>Removes target form local list. This would allow for an approach with a weapon or spell out and ready to use. Only catch is your not invisible, just not shown on local</ooc>
Stealing from the post above:
Toxin scrubbers:
Removes all effects from drug flash that would trigger while the Toxin scrubbers are in place. These nanites scour the body looking for harmful substances and disposing of them.
<ooc>These nanites would remove drug flash that is triggered while the nanites are in effect, not drug flash on drugs used while the nanites are in effect, but only the instances of drug flash that are triggered while the nanites are in effect. It might also provide a half poison damage bonus. The nanites would react to poisons but are not engineered specifically for poison?</ooc>
Thanatos...Why make switching the nanite effects counterproductive. The one identifying characteristic that I think should identify the spy is the ability to quickly adapt. The spy is quick witted and agile. He is also a gadgeteer. Switching his defenses up should be his Specialty. I think that is the major draw of a true spy.
I would really appreciate if you consider balancing by including his adaptation as part of the factor. I know right now that you guys try to focus on dmg/def but what if part of his advantage is the ability to quickly adapt. His buffs from tek shouldn't be insane but shouldn't be **** either. If you make his buffs decent but allow him to switch buffs I think that would make the spy perfect.
If he wants to be Uber he can go ask ppu to buff him.
If he simply is running around fighting fire mobs, and gets ambushed by a pistol pe, he can stealth, pump in some force or energy nanites, unstealth and go at it. The catch is that he's paying in cash for his dynamic ability, and he must be somewhat prepared (carrying nanites at all times) to be at the top of his game.
I obviously also have no clue how strong you plan to make tek effects etc so my recommendations are just that...recommendations. I know I'm kindof speaking blindly so I'm going to shut up about the actual mechanics now and keep giving ideas for nanites
Nanites should require the Nanite-Glove, which will block all Psi-Effects. Drugflash for Nanite use is, uhm, not smart, as there is no drugflash for psi-use either. Let's have them both, or none.
Move all Anti-Buffs to the Nanite-Pool, so Spys are weak, but needed in an OP fight.
Just like to add my serious oppposition to drug flash for using the new spy tools. There's no drug flash for casting psi spells and if the new tools are there to replace the psi effects, ie heal, shelter etc equivalents it seems crazy to add punishments for using them.
I like the idea of maybe limiting them to 2 at a time though, ie you could have equivalents of shelter injected and use a heal, or have maybe a speed boost injection and a heal injection, but this would leave you unable to use defensive injections.
It would be possible to have shelt and def injected together but if you then injected heal nanites whichever of s/d you had injected first would be negated. This would mean the spy would have the ability to react to different situations (such as damage types or the need for a hasty exit with a speed boost) but this would require skill and coordination as only 2 of the effects could be used at once.
Well....They also stated that the nanite usage would be restricted to only the spy himself. I would also like that to be rethought. But as it stands the antibuffs in tek wouldn't do anything as he has said that nanites are personal use only.
It seems the usage restrictions suggested are WAY to restrictive:
1 effect per time.
Cancels psi.
Cant be used while stealthed.
GD...what can you do?...color your skin purple?...lol...jk
but seriously I think we need to loosen the restrictions on it. The tek glove is a good idea( or an implanting like tool for injections?).
I think cancel psi, 2 effects, and stealth doesn't deactivate nanites is good.
I think if you remove all PSI based defences fromt the spy you should introduce something like this :
Personal Purpose Drone.
something that u use trough TC/INT.
defense drone : hover around you and puts a shield around you. basically a close range attack device, directly targetable and destroyable.Basically a shelter giving drone that stays up around you for 2 mins.
attack drone : same as defense but gives you support firepower.
those would need to be easily targetablt thus making the spy v visible when he uses it, but would give him spy-only abilities.
then all sorts of PPD can be created. (even tradeskill ones)
The PPD could be the spy's best friend.
nanites that could make a spy stay in stealth until he/she pulls the weapon even in HN
There could be other, more exotic effects.
Yes please. We don't want nanos just to be renamed PSI shit.
but seriously the spy are fine with the PSI.
no need to remove spell casting from them IMO.
more toys and combat engineer class is the way to go.
BORG-I-FY the spy!! Give him UBER nanites that do exotic things like +5 strength, 10% damage soak, +10% range and aim etc.
On the issue of the "Not a clone of PSI". It's currently possible to make Guns that fire a bullet that hits players with the effects of a medikit, so it wouldnt be anything like a "spell".
RogerRamjet
29-03-06, 22:55
Is it possible to achieve balance ingame without changing mainskills/introducing things like nanites etc?
I just want to add that whole this balancing forum seems pointless for me as we dont have any info about the influence of the proposed changes on the game balance itself.
Sure nanites are cool idea, but i've read all spy related threads on this forum and still have absolutely no idea how it will work, will it work and what influence it could have on the spy's combat viability. Same with other classes actually.
Just a hint, youre just giving us ideas without telling how exactly they are supposed to work... So its kinda hard to talk about balance of any kind...
On the issue of the "Not a clone of PSI". It's currently possible to make Guns that fire a bullet that hits players with the effects of a medikit, so it wouldnt be anything like a "spell".
Did anyone else just get the image in their head of a Libby firing at someone and making their health go UP instead of down? :lol:
I just want to add that whole this balancing forum seems pointless for me as we dont have any info about the influence of the proposed changes on the game balance itself.
Sure nanites are cool idea, but i've read all spy related threads on this forum and still have absolutely no idea how it will work, will it work and what influence it could have on the spy's combat viability. Same with other classes actually.
Just a hint, youre just giving us ideas without telling how exactly they are supposed to work... So its kinda hard to talk about balance of any kind...
Sorry but you need to think for yourself, one reason the forums are here is so WE can try and figure out the pros and cons of ideas and yes, the influence it will have on balance.
I just want to add that whole this balancing forum seems pointless for me as we dont have any info about the influence of the proposed changes on the game balance itself.
Sure nanites are cool idea, but i've read all spy related threads on this forum and still have absolutely no idea how it will work, will it work and what influence it could have on the spy's combat viability. Same with other classes actually.
Just a hint, youre just giving us ideas without telling how exactly they are supposed to work... So its kinda hard to talk about balance of any kind...
The whole point is to gather ideas based on feedback, after we have them, then we'll figure out the hows and whys of it all.
Dribble Joy
30-03-06, 01:18
Indeed, this is really just a brainstorming/idea evaluation effort, rather than picking exactly what's going in.
Even if we do, number and exact details can't be chosen as we need to sort ou more basic aspects of the game balance first.
Apocalypsox
30-03-06, 03:14
The drugflash part is bad...especially since its already going to cost us to buy Nanites. we dont need to be flashed AND have our wallets emptied.
Dribble Joy
30-03-06, 04:11
Drugflash if you switch (ie change) from one type to another could be ok, but otherwise it would be like having a flash after using a normal psi spell.
god please no bs drug side effects ill quit I hate that crud. The side effects are a bAD BAD idea
Why don't we enforce the primary role of the spy, which as its name suggests is a SPY? give him gadgets, remote monitors, remote genrep stations, eavesdropping mics that can be place in OPs and can retransmitt conversations, and the like?
Why don't we enforce the primary role of the spy, which as its name suggests is a SPY? give him gadgets, remote monitors, remote genrep stations, eavesdropping mics that can be place in OPs and can retransmitt conversations, and the like?
Hmm... remote monitors sounds good, but how should that exactly work? Set up a camera in the area, then move out and view from the monitor?
I assume that coding that would not be so difficult, the camera would just be a very small and static drone, after all. If it would be worth the effort, good question. (If you want to have it observe an area without first having to go there, that's part of a droners job description. But it would be nice if the droner spy could make his _unarmed_ drones not appear on the list of people in the area. As additional part, it would be nice if the drone would have some chat window, where local conversation around it is picked up.)
Remote genreps... what do you mean with that? Being able to make your own genrep at random locations? Won't work, would be quite unfair. What could work would be, being able to go to the (outdoors) genrep of any facility, even if it would normally block you. (Wrong faction, wrong clan...)
To keep it in check, the genrep menu would require a spy-only button "override security". It would require one (non-friendly) genrep to be selected before using it and could only be used once in 10 minutes. If this option is used, the spy then can genrep to the station in question for the next 5 minutes. (As bonus, when the 5 minutes are over, there could be a 10% chance that the clan owning the station gets a message that the genrep detected internal manipulation and is resetting. So they have some kind of warning.)
And last not least, the microphones. I would consider it a nice toy do drop a microphone to one or another place and listen while running around elsewhere. Tactical use i actually consider to be very limited, though. The microphone would pick up "local" and i am quite sure that no side in an opfight would use local to say anything important. (Even more honestly, to really intercept their battle plans, you'd have to invade their teamspeak, ventrillo or anything like that...)
Anyways, since this is the thread where the ideas are collected, i would like to also add what VoWZaRiCK said in the other spy-thread. It would be nice if the spy would have a way of tracking other players. I personally see little need for tracking items and i don't know if the suggested limitations would make sense, but being able to track somebody would be really nice. (Or nasty, depending on the point of view.)
So what's the difference between drugs and nanite ? That's a big problem for me. Why some classes would have an autonomous buff system (like psi buffs and just wait for PPW to recover), and the spy not ?
I think that if nanotech is choosed, it should be an autonomous system, or at least, make the nano tool working without ammo for example with less effects than with a nanite charge in it!
Synchronize
30-03-06, 12:24
The drug flash seem to me strange because since SPY will not have psy they will uses they Nano often
Think to make the nano recyclable ? or cheap and with a small weight (spy don't have a lot's of transport capability except for Traders and Droners
And what of exotic nano for the Trader (cst, rech, barter) it would be nice to have something for them
On the issue of the "Not a clone of PSI". It's currently possible to make Guns that fire a bullet that hits players with the effects of a medikit, so it wouldnt be anything like a "spell".
Would it be possible to have an effect which brings the target "to local" so the spies far away could hear what the target&people around him say in local? (ie. bugs and similar kinds of espionage)
Did anyone else just get the image in their head of a Libby firing at someone and making their health go UP instead of down? :lol: No, rather someone shooting off a medkit at a guy, full medkit skin flying through the air, heh.
No, rather someone shooting off a medkit at a guy, full medkit skin flying through the air, heh.
Now, come on, that's ridiculous... everybody knows that a medkit is a melee weapon. Batter the enemy with the box or strangulate him with the bandages... :D ;)
give the spy just enough psi to use shelter and not cap it. Let him use some basic amor that has low resistance to the elements. Now you have a balanced spy.
It seems like everyone is more worried about what cool new items can be added to make them more powerfull instead of fixing the game.
I like balancing too but This thread was specifically to focus on nanite ideas. Balancing should be comming also but like I said, this thread was specifically for nanite ideas
fuck nanites as PPU replacement for spys, bad idea.
Make new toys for spys that uses nanites, good idea.
First of all we thing it should be usable on the spy himself, so it would be impossible to use this technology on other people.Why/how? Are you trying to maintain the PPU's support dominance? Have you never seen The Borg on Star Trek? Or is this a sledgehammer method of stopping nanites from boosting the other three classes?There should only be one effect active at a time, with a limited duration.Why one effect at a time? Why not one from each category of effect, same as Psi?Each usage would consume a charge of nanites, which would have to be bought like ammunition.If it's "like ammunition", it better be clonable "like ammunition". I haven't bought more than one clip of ammo, stamina booster, or psi booster at a time since cloning went into NC.It would probably also be linked to a drug flash effect so that constantly switching the nanite effect would be counterproductive.Why? Psi has no drugflash associated with it. You've now introduced three negatives - self-only, one-at-a-time, drugflash - for one positive. Why?Nanite usage would also override or block PSI spells of the same nature.That's a sledgehammer method of balancing it with Psi, don't you think? Several types of Psi spells can be stacked, while many others can't. Some should be stackable (like heals) others perhaps not (like skill boosters).Due to conflicts with the technology of the stealth tool, the nanites would not work during stealth.Lame. You're not taking into account movement through mob territory.
Too many negatives - self-only, one-at-a-time, drugflash, and no-stealth operation - without enough information about the positives.
why have another self only "tech psi" on spys if you dont have special abilities for that.
Nanite self repair powerarmour
Infra vision to target stealth
A force shield that blocks front damage and use nanites (like the psi shield)
Camo armour to be removed from local list when no weapon is used and still standing.
VHC Armour Protection Link makes a Force shield around a VHC (for limit time)
Genrep Malfunktion Nanites cause ppl that genrep to an SECTOR (underground/normal) to go to an random sector or just block travel.
Automatic turret reprogramming. makes an turret belong to your faction
give the spy a tool that heals (would work like the remote repair tool)
but only for himself.
make the Barter a real profession which allow to xp correctly with the skill barter ( when I compare to research...)
Give the Droner a real armor with Droner bonuses and I would say
a PA which stealth while droning
Why/how? Are you trying to maintain the PPU's support dominance? Have you never seen The Borg on Star Trek? Or is this a sledgehammer method of stopping nanites from boosting the other three classes?Why one effect at a time? Why not one from each category of effect, same as Psi?If it's "like ammunition", it better be clonable "like ammunition". I haven't bought more than one clip of ammo, stamina booster, or psi booster at a time since cloning went into NC.Why? Psi has no drugflash associated with it. You've now introduced three negatives - self-only, one-at-a-time, drugflash - for one positive. Why?That's a sledgehammer method of balancing it with Psi, don't you think? Several types of Psi spells can be stacked, while many others can't. Some should be stackable (like heals) others perhaps not (like skill boosters).Lame. You're not taking into account movement through mob territory.
Too many negatives - self-only, one-at-a-time, drugflash, and no-stealth operation - without enough information about the positives.
good post agree with you 100%
Give the Droner a real armor with Droner bonuses and I would say
a PA which stealth while droning
sure .. can I please have some nuclear weapons for my PE then, to take out all stealthing droners in one sector at once? sounds balanced to me.
Stealing the post above:
Thermal recognition nanites:
These nanites connect to the retina and sense heat in the visual field. In response they activate and produce colored sillouettes around stealthed and otherwise invisible people allowing them to be seen and targeted.
<ooc>Stealth seeing ability</ooc>
i like the idea of this, it should be like the stealth seeing effect on planet side if anyone has ever played it
nuclear weapon would have a higher INT req, usable only by spy :p
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