View Full Version : Monk Proposition #3
We’d like to see your feedback about several possible changes. These propositions concern specific aspects of the class roles. We will add more propositions throughout the week.
Please note that we do not plan to change any main skills besides removing the GenTank’s PSI!
We have shelved the EPU idea for now and would like to move on to another proposition:
A re-introduction of PSI aiming, but in a much weakened form. The aiming process would be really fast under optimal conditions, when the character is standing still. Moving and especially running on the other hand would make aiming take a somewhat longer time.
The aiming time would be influenced by a skill called Focusing. The skill Mental Steadiness currently only acts as a requirement skill. By renaming Mental Steadiness to Focusing, and having it influence aiming, it would at least have a real effect on the character. It would still be a requirement for PSI modules and its effects would not be too large, but noticeable. It would not affect the aiming time under optimal conditions, but instead reduce the penalty for casting while moving.
As with the spy’s nanites and T-C skill, the amount of skill required would be around what monks currently have to use their highest level modules. The optimal skill would probably a little higher than the highest module requirement, but not by much.
I'm unsure as to how this would solve any issues, you'd be diluting the skill pool from what I can see.
Dribble Joy
31-03-06, 16:07
Interesting.
I like the sound of that as it would give a little variation for monks too with the possibilty of monks chosing better aiming over psi pool.
Perhaps make the most optimal aiming a fair bit higher than the current module as it would increase variation a little more, also from how i read this it sounds like it will be like other aiming, will it actually give monks a recticle?
I like the sound of that as it would give a little variation for monks too with the possibilty of monks chosing better aiming over psi pool.
Cleared up my issue there :p
Sounds interesting.
Also more choices for monks, i.e. you could choose aiming over psi pool or damage or whatever. Like that.
But as spells are one shot weapons, how would it actually work? You'd need a closed reticle to actually hit? Or would the size of the reticle influence the damage a spell does?
Given my monk is currently my favorite character, I still like this idea. Monks not having a reticle has always been a sticking point, even for monk players.
Would this finally make modding a spell for handling a good idea?
dont like the idea of recticles on monks in any form, they are the only class without it, and that for me makes them have a completly different style of play. Which is a bonus for me, adding a recticl will just make them like a tank or PE.
sanityislost
31-03-06, 16:46
Hmmm, this idea is alot better...yar i like it
SiL ..:..
umm, the post was unclear, what happens if a monk fires with an open reticle?
ALso this is a fine idea......but nothing much is changing.
Edit: I have also said before I think retical closing times should be lowered for all classes to prevent ops from being the giant ppu fest they are now. If people's retical's closed faster a HH would not be so overpowered in a large group.
EPU would have been too complicated, this is an awesome idea. What effect would not having the reticle fully closed have?
If the spells themselves dont change that option will only bring small changes.
The PPU wil be tougher to play but still has the same (over)powers.
I like the idea so far.
One thing that concerns me right now is the soon-to-be-possibly-introduced anti-psi-buffing effects from the PE. I know ppus are over powered right now with stuff. But I think the upgrades other classes are getting might help the balance. It all really depends on the other classes upgrades as to whether I think much more needs to be done to the ppu.
seems very interesting... like the idea... I think it will show if it's good or not when it will implemented on the test server.
(and make casting behind a wall impossible :lol: )
I like the sound of that as it would give a little variation for monks too with the possibilty of monks chosing better aiming over psi pool.
Cleared up my issue there :p
well not really for capped characters, as the MST (Focusing) required for cap is only going to be a bit above what is needed now
Bugs Gunny
31-03-06, 21:20
There goes my apu hybrid out the window, but yeah, i like it.
What about PSI use in the INT skillset? Can't this be used for effecting aiming?
So how would this affect PPu's trying to cast buffs on themself??? if The reticule is only 50% closed does that give the spell 50% chance of being self cast instead of foreign casted? And One major problem that concerns me is all this defensive nerfing going on. But people call still barrel the Ug's with 5-6 monks, and now your chances of getting a holy heal are cut in 1/2. Not to mention it's now 50% less effective aswell.
Let's say I cap all stats on a weapon. I can crouch, point-blank in front of a non-moving target and STILL miss it. Whatever calculation there is in the game code, the ability to always hit is impossible. What would this mean for a PPU casting heal on a player? He targets them, crouches, gets the reticle completely closed on a Heal module he completely caps... and when he casts it nothing happens thanks to this game code feature - that would just piss people off...
Perhaps just add a reticle to APU modules and don't make them pass/fail, but the % of damage they can do. A fully locked reticle would do the normal 75-100% damage while a fully open reticle would do 1-25%
Reticles aren't a game balancer tho - they're just a change to game play.
i like the idea of aiming for the psi monks, itll give the PPU APU teams less of an edge and an ACTUAL chance to be killed.
Dribble Joy
01-04-06, 00:38
i like the idea of aiming for the psi monks, itll give the PPU APU teams less of an edge and an ACTUAL chance to be killed.
Given proper balancing, we wouldn't need to bring in aiming to 'balance' monks, the problems lie elsewhere and making their effectiveness subject to utter randomality (random dmg needs to be tweaked/removed anyway) will just piss people off.
As suggested several times and just above, linking recticle and dmg would be the best way.
While ur at it give the melees and drones a reticule ! (lol)
Dribble Joy
01-04-06, 01:18
Why not?
Make AGL affect the recticle speed.
(just a random suggestion)
There goes my apu hybrid out the window, but yeah, i like it.
blessed hybs however would benefit if they used the higher end ppu modules becaues the higer requierment for mst than the apu modules used
on another note. i agree it should effect damage and then only on apu modules. no rets should be on ppu ones
Has anyone thought about making heals not DoT spells? and instead making them one time cast, and heal a certian ammount of health each time it's casted depending on the level of the heal?
Any thoughts about what problems this would cause? Or anything like that?
Oh and I do like the idea about adding aiming to monks, but I still think that only agressive spells should have a reticle and passive should stay the way they are (Para and DB and those types of spells are not passively used and should have a reticle).
Oh and I do like the idea about adding aiming to monks, but I still think that only agressive spells should have a reticle and passive should stay the way they are (Para and DB and those types of spells are not passively used and should have a reticle).
oh
ooooooh
para should have a slow closing ret and if you dont close it properly... it miss fires n para's you... haha that will teach them dam para spammers
p,s, non of this will stop me being over powered
im a specialy set up ppu hyb who uses aoe psi modules...
so like i
A never miss
B have more mst anyway than my apu modules
Dribble Joy
01-04-06, 03:18
Has anyone thought about making heals not DoT spells? and instead making them one time cast, and heal a certian ammount of health each time it's casted depending on the level of the heal?
There is a slight problem there.
Say you cast a current heal, it adds 10 hp a second for 15 secs. You can't recast a heal on the person untill it runs.
Imagine a single hit heal, yes you can reduce the freq, but what if you have 5 ppus? People could go from 5 hp to 500l in 1 second.
There is a slight problem there.
Say you cast a current heal, it adds 10 hp a second for 15 secs. You can't recast a heal on the person untill it runs.
Imagine a single hit heal, yes you can reduce the freq, but what if you have 5 ppus? People could go from 5 hp to 500l in 1 second.
While the ppus are not helping anyone else at all. That is the difference. As it is now you can just cast a heal on every fighter and it would keep them all alive for the whole time it lasted, and if the ppu was good enough he could keep a heal on 4-5 people non stop.
Edit:
para should have a slow closing ret and if you dont close it properly... it miss fires n para's you... haha that will teach them dam para spammers
That was one of the ideas I posted a while back. I said that Para, DB and Antibuff should self cast if you miss.
There goes my apu hybrid out the window, but yeah, i like it.
Clever way to guarantee universal approval for an idea you like, bugs ;) .
This may be silly, but if this happens, could the reticle not look like yuor standard gun crosshairs? Something more suggestive of mentally focusing down on your vic^H^H^H target. It's gonna be a while before you can really focus on look and feel variety, so sneaking along cool stuff with necessary balance changes will give you a head start :D
Very good approach that will ultimatelly solve a lot of overpower in OP fights, provided its finetuned.
The EPU idea has gone. What about the DB, Para then? The PE will still lose the DB, while apu/ppu teams are again overpowered, or at least unballanced?
Dribble Joy
01-04-06, 06:27
Very good approach that will ultimatelly solve a lot of overpower in OP fights, provided its finetuned.
The EPU idea has gone. What about the DB, Para then? The PE will still lose the DB, while apu/ppu teams are again overpowered, or at least unballanced?
DB adds to the skills PPUs would use as combat char 'multipliers'.
As for apu/ppu, how the various spells of ppus affect apus will change.
Hopefully ppu+apu = ppu+combat class = any two combat classes.
Why though, DJ? The whole point of the PPU is to keep other classes alive. So if we make the ppu+randomclass = any 2 random classes, then there is no point to even having a ppu. It is nice to say they should be optional and everything, but if they are optional, why bother having them in the first place.
Think of it like a game of chess. Everyone loves the queen, and most players are ready to concede when they lose their queen. In this game, the ppu is the queen. Are we ready for every player to be a rook, or a bishop, or even worse, a pawn?
people should play ppus because they want to play a healer class. they should not play ppus because ppus are worth more than any other class.
if ppl say "ohnoz, playing a ppu is so boring, if he isn't as overpowered as he is right now I will stop playing one" - fine. stop playing ppu then.
we all pay the same money to play this game. we're either all queens, or all pawns.
my opinion, at least.
The Problem is not the PPU himself being too strong.
The Problem is that an Apu who is supposed to have few resist and a big Damage output gains a lot of resists from a PPU and keep his Damage, while a tank cannot gain the same amount of a PPU cause he already has better defenses but still less damage.
If the Foreign cast could be reduced, this Problem could be solved, there would be no more need for Antibuff and Apu+PPu would be the same as Tank+PPu.
And a Tank+PPU would be a real Alternative because he wouldnt be as Fragile as a apu with a weaker SD.
It would be nice if KK could tell us if a change of this kind could be made, because as long as these kind of imbalances are not fixed, it is not wise to implement "goodies" like Nanos and such.
This could be taken care of if an overall Balance is achieved.
Why though, DJ? The whole point of the PPU is to keep other classes alive. So if we make the ppu+randomclass = any 2 random classes, then there is no point to even having a ppu. It is nice to say they should be optional and everything, but if they are optional, why bother having them in the first place.
because you start getting bigger and bigger advantages of having one ppu in your team as your teams size increases.
One ppu + combat class char < 2 combat class chars
Why though, DJ? The whole point of the PPU is to keep other classes alive. So if we make the ppu+randomclass = any 2 random classes, then there is no point to even having a ppu. It is nice to say they should be optional and everything, but if they are optional, why bother having them in the first place.
so you're against balancing the game.. ok.. stupidest post, if PEs are balanced with tanks why have both then either?
The Problem is that an Apu who is supposed to have few resist and a big Damage output gains a lot of resists from a PPU and keep his Damage, while a tank cannot gain the same amount of a PPU cause he already has better defenses but still less damage.
it is a problem, but all classes with a PPU are extremely unbalanced as well
If the reticle can be fast enough, I agree with it.
Why though, DJ? The whole point of the PPU is to keep other classes alive. So if we make the ppu+randomclass = any 2 random classes, then there is no point to even having a ppu. It is nice to say they should be optional and everything, but if they are optional, why bother having them in the first place.
Think of it like a game of chess. Everyone loves the queen, and most players are ready to concede when they lose their queen. In this game, the ppu is the queen. Are we ready for every player to be a rook, or a bishop, or even worse, a pawn?
because
ppu + fighter + fighter = 4 fighters not 3
ppus are a X2 multiplyer they should beable to double the effectiveness of any one fighters... meaning a 1 ppu in a army of ppl are good doubling there effectivness with primes shelters deflectors and heals.
less ppus should be needed
having 2 ppus and 2 tanks would still be only equal to 4 fighters because a good ppu should beable to double the effectivness of multyiple ppl
- EDIT - oops thats basicaly what giga191 said didnt read his post
I don't think that there should be a big advantage of having 2 PPUs over just having 1. The best way to do this is to limit the amount of jobs that a PPU has to do or do things such as the proposed limited dmg that one shelter can absorb and limit the amount of time between each shelter a player can recieve. Hopefully with a PE rezz, it could be option to not have to bring any PPUs at all.
Dribble Joy
01-04-06, 23:23
Dirus said that actually the PPU multiplier would be more like 60%.
PPUs are team chars, so a gank team would be better off with another fighter.
Besides, surely it should not matter what class you play so long as you remain equally valuable to a team? This would allow people to play what they want to, not what they have to.
the idea sounds good but I can see a problem :
in the same PSI pool of points, you will have 3 skill to increase to master spells
apu/ppu
mst ( focusing)
psipower
you will have to be carefull cause some spell will not be used at all because
we won't have enough maximum power.
spell have already been removed (because too powerfull)
i think that this will decrease the number of spell available
Balancing the apu/ppu CANNOT be done only modifying monk classes
OTHER classes need some way to resist PSI
because to be short, if you want to balance monks modifying spells :
REMOVE holy Lightning AND Holy Para and you won't have any problem...
PSI aiming will only be cool if when the reticle is NOT fully closed, the monks don't get this waving hands fizzel crap. Come on it would drive people mad if that happened, instead it should effect the damage dealt to the target. Fully/almost closed reticle = full damage, slightly off = 20% less damage, really bad aim = 50% less damage ??
the idea sounds good but I can see a problem :
in the same PSI pool of points, you will have 3 skill to increase to master spells
apu/ppu
mst ( focusing)
psipower
you will have to be carefull cause some spell will not be used at all because
we won't have enough maximum power.
spell have already been removed (because too powerfull)
i think that this will decrease the number of spell available
Balancing the apu/ppu CANNOT be done only modifying monk classes
OTHER classes need some way to resist PSI
because to be short, if you want to balance monks modifying spells :
REMOVE holy Lightning AND Holy Para and you won't have any problem... I still don't understand why other classes would need to be modified to balance monks :confused:
And having 3 skills withing one main skill means that you will get variations between setups instead of just the one cookie cutter setup.
If monks are balanced properly the PE would fall in line with other classes solo.
I know I sounded like PPUs should be the way they are, I meant more that any class that is primarily support should always be a bonus to the offense of the team. Why doesn't anyone go solo ganking on a tank? The last person I remember doing that was VetteroX and even he pussied out in the end and had support, primarily so he could gank greens.
Ok I don't know shit about balance. That comes with not playing the same game most other people are playing, I guess. Ah well, the solo player died in this game a long time ago, hence my MC5lessness and general anonymity ingame. :o
Dribble Joy
02-04-06, 17:37
If monks are balanced properly the PE would fall in line with other classes solo.
Possibly.
If the PPU effect on all classes were equal (either a removal of foreign S/D or a change so that all classes gained the same proportional defence boost) that would help. The other issue is heals, they currently help apus more than tanks and those more than PEs.
Heavyporker
02-04-06, 21:24
Hmmm.... Interesting suggestion.
Okay, I guess I could support this Focusing skill thing.
But I worry - Psi Pool is *always* such a huge issue, and getting to that flip point where you get such a nice psi pool bonus for each point you put into Psi Power is hard enough already even with the all-important psi implants.
Also, what implants give MS... er, *cough* Focusing? The only one I can think of is the Dimension Splitter and the Psi-Core. ( I looked it up. These ARE the only two.) I strongly suggest that some implants (psi-type neutral) be created to gve +focusing.
Its interesting. It certainly brings monks more into line with other classes.
BUT. What about self-cast? Do we need to "aim" that or not? What happens with an unclosed reticle? fractional damage may work with APU stuff, but not with primes/shelters. Or is it just a chance to miss?
The important problem isn't with monks really, although bad netcode means that the APUs lack of need for LOS gives some major problems. The problem is with the fact that passive psi is THE factor in defence, farrr more so than armour or con (although exasperated by the quality of monk armour). I no I am sounding like a broken record, but the critical thing to fix is the effects and strength of ALL passive psi. That and make it so the most efficent ratio is one PPU per person...
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