View Full Version : Resist Psi
We have decided to move away from the class discussions and focus on more tangible topics for now. This week we'd like to discuss parts of the skill system, namely 2 resistance skills.
As you may know, the "Resist Psi" skill is currently of little use, as Psi damage is barely available in the game (Psi modules do i.e. fire or energy damage, but not pure Psi damage). To remedy this situation, we have several options. We could remove the skill and the psi damage type, or make the skill more valuable. Here are the options we are considering:
1) Remove the Resist Psi skill. Psi damage will no longer be in the game, reducing the number of damage types to 6.
2) Keep the Resist Psi skill, but have all psi modules deal part fire/energy/etc damage and part Psi damage. So a fire module could hypothetically deal 80% fire damage and 20% Psi damage. Of course since the GenTank will lose his 10 points in PSI, he would be unable to skill Resist Psi. This could be compensated through his armor or other items.
3) Keep the Resist Psi skill. Increasing Resist Psi would not only reduce the damage taken by Psi modules, but would also weaken the effect of beneficial Psi modules likes heals or boosters. Players would have to choose between increasing their solo survival potential (less damage taken, but weak Psi support) or a more team-oriented path (normal damage taken, but also normal psi support). Again, the tank would have the possibility to make his choice through armor and/or implants.
i'll take option 3 please
Option 1, please.
This argument has been done to death on these forums. And the inevitable result is - resist psi would benefit monks and punish all others. We are planning on taking psi away from tanks entirely, so now the tank, the supposed damage sponge is going to be exposded to damage they cannot resist. Great.
You've got spies and PEs, who are already strapped into making hard choice with their psi points. SPies have very little, so even speccing ALL psi into PSR would give them very little resistance. PEs are always going to have to make use of the defensive aspects of psi. So now we face them with a choice - be good at resisting psi damage, or be good at dealing with all other types.
THen the monks. THey can easily trade off a bit of pool size or a bit of weapon damage % in exchange for plenty of spi resist. As a result, the only class now capable of figthing monks are other monks, while everyone else scraps among themselves.
Please dont do this KK. THere is no need and it breaks more than it fixes. I can dredge up 10 threads on this with plentuy of strong arguments from the nay and almost none for the yea if needs be.
EDIT: Actually scratch that, im not too sure at the moment.
I like option 3...Most definitely. I would appreciate the soloing capability and the choice of whether to weaken beneficial buffs as well as negative effects and damage
Vote for 1 , because it is easier for KK. So they musn't change more resist and co.
As i hate monks, i don't want them to have their own unique damage type.
Option 1 please. :)
edit: Nah, CMaster is right.
Option 1, please.
This argument has been done to death on these forums. And the inevitable result is - resist psi would benefit monks and punish all others. We are planning on taking psi away from tanks entirely, so now the tank, the supposed damage sponge is going to be exposded to damage they cannot resist. Great.
You've got spies and PEs, who are already strapped into making hard choice with their psi points. SPies have very little, so even speccing ALL psi into PSR would give them very little resistance. PEs are always going to have to make use of the defensive aspects of psi. So now we face them with a choice - be good at resisting psi damage, or be good at dealing with all other types.
THen the monks. THey can easily trade off a bit of pool size or a bit of weapon damage % in exchange for plenty of spi resist. As a result, the only class now capable of figthing monks are other monks, while everyone else scraps among themselves.
Please dont do this KK. THere is no need and it breaks more than it fixes. I can dredge up 10 threads on this with plentuy of strong arguments from the nay and almost none for the yea if needs be.
I totally agree with this.
Athon
Dribble Joy
07-04-06, 18:52
1, for the love of pie, tea and Judges; 1.
It would be a horrible mess and really would screw over anyone but monks (not that monks would spec it either).
This should be a poll but there you go, I vote for option 1 it's less complicated whichs means KK wont screw up and unbalance pvp over one stupid resist. The work to do this would be exstensive, because monks would need to spec resist psi if they wanted. Heals would have to be increased or with too much resist psi they'd be useless and then for people that have no resist would be over powered.
OPT 1 FTW!!!
i would go for option 3, but i think this would end up in nobody would use it because of the buffs.
it would only make sense if the % of psi damage would be > 30%
on low % option2 would be it
1. Definitely! Why make it more complicated than it currently is. Can't really see any point in that. Neocron too easy to play, or we got too many players? ;)
To make any of the other options work would require a shitload of otherwise unnecessary modifications to loads of imps & weapons etc. I would think there is enough work to do without adding more things that most likely would be unbalanced during the first patches anyway. Currently players got basically 6 different types of dmg they try to inflict to others & try to tweak their resists for. Anyone think that gameplay would be that much better in anyway if we had 7 types of dmg to worry about?
Estimated reward in improved gameplay / needed extra work effort for option 2 & 3 – ratio = soooo bad. Clearly those hours of work can be better spent with other more urgent issues.
* Armor and Resistance System
Improve the transparency of the armor and resistance system. It should be clear what amount of damage reduction you get from using a particular setup.
that is from the sticky. if there is no longer mythic, full moon, calculations of resist skills it isnt that bad.
Option 1.
Fuck monks. while I agree with option 1, what negative effect would that have on monks? 0o
Making PSI resist work would give a favor to PSI in the guns vs psi balance.
Another thing we dont need.
braydagner
07-04-06, 21:28
option 1
Option 1.
I never liked the idea for a sub skill that is purely for psi. They should stay the way they are and do Fire, Xray, Energy and Force (depending on the spell). There is no "resist rifles" so why should there be a "resist psi"?
Apocalypsox
07-04-06, 22:38
option 3 4tw tbh.
option 1 for the sake of simplicity and less "mucking around" for other balance issues that can arrise in terms of % psi dmg, etc.
an opion 4 that i havent quite writen yet which involves resisting everything but that includes friendly modules
i vote option 1 plz.....thank U
Option 1.
Fuck monks.
There's my answer. Well said.
Asurmen Spec Op
08-04-06, 04:33
Option one,
Reasons:
Currently, the PSIs of the classes are quite balanced without brining resist PSI into the circle, resist PSI will only cause an exponentail increase in bringing 'butt buddies' to fights, which from my NC PVP experience makes it a game of rock paper scissors noobheal.
Asurmen, nice to see you back.
option 1, reason: needless complications.
Asurmen Spec Op
08-04-06, 08:26
Asurmen, nice to see you back.
option 1, reason: needless complications.
was never really unsubbed ;)
Private_Eye44
08-04-06, 09:53
:) :) :) :) :) :) 33333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333 :)
Number 1 for the vast array of reasons that have been posted here for years.
I think that PSI damage and resist add more variety to the game. Of course at it is now is like PSI damage never been truly into the game, but if rightly balanced and with some item addition, it could add some variety (i.e. spells that do 80% psi damage, armor with psi resist, some rare spell with psi damage) and you could quit seeing only HL APUs
RogerRamjet
08-04-06, 15:45
Option 1.
I think that PSI damage and resist add more variety to the game. Of course at it is now is like PSI damage never been truly into the game, but if rightly balanced and with some item addition, it could add some variety (i.e. spells that do 80% psi damage, armor with psi resist, some rare spell with psi damage) and you could quit seeing only HL APUs
Maybe, but as far as I can see, the only way to balance it would be to make sure everyone has the psi skill points to be able to spec it - otherwise as others have pointed out, it's just going to benefit monks and make them harder to kill than everyone else - which, I believe, is the situation we're trying to get out of.
Athon
Maybe, but as far as I can see, the only way to balance it would be to make sure everyone has the psi skill points to be able to spec it - otherwise as others have pointed out, it's just going to benefit monks and make them harder to kill than everyone else - which, I believe, is the situation we're trying to get out of.
We are here to discuss about a balancing work is'nt? So, if PSI is going to stay as resist and damage, iof course it need to be balanced. Somewhere someone already said that, i.e, tanks could have some PSI resist through armor.
I don't see how PSI resist can make monks harder to kill. If unbalanced it can add more power to monk attack, but nothing to defence.
I'm kinda for option 2, but with some change. PSI damage is a choice like poison or fire damage and not a % always present into all damages. Really, enough of all those HL APUs. PSI damage, if balanced, will add more variety.
It would add to the monks defense through the fact that they'd be the only ones with anough spare to spec it. I guess PE's might possibly be able to spec some as well, but tanks and spies need all theirs for self-buffs as it is - and tanks might be losing theirs altogether.
Yes we're here to talk about balancing, but unless KK gives us a test server with the new setups on, all we have to work from is what the current setups are like, so I base everything as a change on that.
As I gather from the other posts by them so far, KK want to mess with the main skills and such as little as possible.
Athon
1...
which seems to be popular, I'm going to laugh at these balance discussion forums if this option isn't the one chosen by KK
1
If resist psi was left in, tanks wouldnt be able to use it, spies would lose too much by using it. This means PEs and psis would get an easy resist boost. And TBH they are both too powerful as is.
Option no. 1 is by far my prefered choice, for all the reasons CM mentioned.
Heavyporker
09-04-06, 01:10
Everyone knows my position on Resist PSI, but I'll say it: I've always supported bringing PSI damage to PSI modules. People should choose between being the tough loner, or a team member that relies on teammates.
APUs are supposed to do incredible damage, and they're quite vulnerable. PPUs just don't do that much damage in any case. Perhaps KK had better be careful in giving PSI damage to Soulclusters (both the creatures in the tunnels, and the Creature Focus module). The thing is: Bringing more ppus won't matter! There's is a maximum of 1 shelter, 1 deflector, and 1 booster of resist/skill, and 1 heal on each player. More... ppus... won't... matter!
There are already two lines of resist PSI implants in game. Perhaps one should contemplate reducing or altering their requirements, but making more types just doesn't make sense.
Perhaps the Resist-Energy in the PSI Cloaks should change to Resist-PSI, which would make them pretty valuable against other monks, but produce an equitable vulnerability to non-monks.'
There shouldn't be any more Resist-PSI armor than that, though.
I vote for option 1, only because I believe if they add it as a damage type it'll show up on mobs and I don't want to deal with that.
You know what will happen if we start making a big differntiation between speccing for teams and solo?
We'll get all the "133t pkers" speccing for solo, then whinging their asses off everytime they get killed by a team who knows what they are doing. We'll get those who spec for teams whigning about how they got "griefed" when a pker caught them on their own. Sure, people will whinge anyway, but doing this kinda thing will make people screa, that things still aren't balanced.
landofcake
09-04-06, 03:18
I can't see any valid reason not to choose option 1.
I dont see why everyone keeps saying that Resist psi will help monks and pe's?
I think you all are missing something.
The fact that if they invest in resist psi they are loosing the ability to psi heal themselves or boost themselves.
If you choose option 3 this effect will be doubled. No-on ein particular gets an advantage.
Someone who claims that resist psi would only help one class expain why you way that.
The monks will lose their own effectiveness in some major skill by investing substantially in psi resist, meanwhile lowering their own buff effectiveness. The only person they might get an "advantage" over is another monk, and even then there IS NO advantage. They loose spell buff power, or attack power, to use direct psi resist.
NO PARTICULAR CLASS gets an advantage with psi resist.
Option 3 is the option for me
Actually kryn, spies cant afford to put any points into it. psis and pes can afford to put a little in without too badly damaging their other skills.
I dont see why everyone keeps saying that Resist psi will help monks and pe's?
I think you all are missing something.
The fact that if they invest in resist psi they are loosing the ability to psi heal themselves or boost themselves.
If you choose option 3 this effect will be doubled. No-on ein particular gets an advantage.
Someone who claims that resist psi would only help one class expain why you way that.
The monks will lose their own effectiveness in some major skill by investing substantially in psi resist, meanwhile lowering their own buff effectiveness. The only person they might get an "advantage" over is another monk, and even then there IS NO advantage. They loose spell buff power, or attack power, to use direct psi resist.
NO PARTICULAR CLASS gets an advantage with psi resist.
Option 3 is the option for me
almost everyone caps or near caps energy as it is, that being the case there is no way resist psi could make hl do less dmg. Yes monks would be stronger against monks, but others could only take more dmg than now too, not less. Best case result is apus are even better at killing ppus, still makes apu/ppu teams the strongest in an op war.
Heavyporker
09-04-06, 06:10
I want to point out...
APUs would have a *REALLY* tough time rationalizing investing in PSI Resist.
Sure, they can't heal themselves through PSI, so if they went totally solo, it's only to their benefit. But, damn, what a short lifespan!
And, well... APUs who team... who in their right mind specs PSR then?
And when it comes to PPUs... Well, if PSR doesn't affect self-cast, then there's no question: spec PSR to the extent you can afford to! What does a couple casts a minute matter when you gain the ability to shrug off EVEN more damage?
In my mind, only soloers have any cause to worry about PSR. Team-inclined players will just have to really stay on their toes.
Like it always had to be in Neocron.
Flash...I'm speaking with the new tach gadgets in mind to replace the psi stuff (shelter, deflector)
Onero...wrong....the psi resist WOULD give equal energy resist as you said...BUT it would also give increased resists across the board for aggressive psi spells attacking the character. Worst case for energy is that the resist total stays the same...best case is that is increases resistance against psi spells across the board....
Try again....
Bugs Gunny
09-04-06, 10:26
Remove it.
Hell-demon
09-04-06, 10:48
agreed remove it
It would just make everyone in general take more damage from APUs, wich isnt what we would call, hmm balanced, considering the state they already are at.
The resist pierce on the other hand would do just th eopposite.
It would just make everyone in general take more damage from APUs, wich isnt what we would call, hmm balanced, considering the state they already are at.
The resist pierce on the other hand would do just th eopposite.
there is an other way of doing it, (think it was option 2) that says e.g. 30% of it is PSI damage and 70% of it is elemental.
therefore your con set up still means alot Vs monks but if you want to be that slightly bit more anti monk you spec PSI resist.
Which would seem to solve 99% of the issues of Option 3 that ppl are stating.
Option 1.
Cmaster nailed it on the first page of this thread.
Option 3 - but only if it effects damage from all spells.
Here are my thoughts:
In terms of balancing option 1 wouldn't change anything. The only benefit we get from this is that noobs can't spec anything in this point sink. Option 1 would also be the easiest solution solution to implement. Implementing option 1 would also mean the removal of a lot not-used implants.
Option 2 is interesting: apu's would be dealing less damage in the primary damage type (energy, fire, etc.), but more in the 'new' PSI-damage. Anyone hating apu's could spec maximum PSR to benefit from this. The problem here is that actually pe's and monks are the only classes that could spare some points under PSI to put into PSR.
Option 3 is also interesting: anyone who likes to solo, could spec more points in PSR to be more resistant to apu's (and ppu's). Again, the classes that can benefit most from this are monks and pe's.
My conclusion is that therre should be another option:
Give all apu-spells 75% primary damage (energy, fire, etc.) and 25% psi damage [from option 2]. Make all ppu-spells 100% psi-damage. Make tanks (and spies) invulnerable against the psi-damage, maybe by raising PSR in their PA's. (balancing: better defense against apu's). [from option 1?] Force monks making a choice between speccing PSR (better defense against apu's and less benefit from ppu's) or speccing none or less PSR (less defense against apu's but more benefit from ppu-support) [from option 3]. PE's should be the allround class, so their vulnerability from PSI-damage should be somewhere between monks and tanks (and spies).
With this option, monks would be the ones to really make a choice. APU's could kill ppu's that don't spec PSR much more easy.
If this can't be implemented or if it's too hard to implement, my choice would be option 1.
awkward silence
09-04-06, 21:15
option 1
There's just something about speccing skills to defend against a single skill for a single class that I don't like the idea of.
There's just something about speccing skills to defend against a single skill for a single class that I don't like the idea of.
Very strongly agreed.
Pink Floyd
09-04-06, 22:41
There's just something about speccing skills to defend against a single skill for a single class that I don't like the idea of.
Makes sense, though I like Superbron's option. My vote is for option 1.
ok brains worked it out now
OPTION 4
Change it to -=- Mental Resistance
change all monk modules to XX% psi damage and whatever damage they currently do. to be decided on type of module and lvl n so on.
base points in "Mental resistance add the following" (the actual value would requier some looking into to make sure unbalancing doesnt occure)
0.3 points to poison
0.2-0.4 points to force
0.25-0.5 points to piercing
0.1-0.2 energy
0.2-0.3 fire
0.2-0.3 xray
1-3 points in resist psionics
HOWEVER armour based modifers ONLY resists psi based damage
Standard tank armour should come with around 130-140 base with a posible extra 20 coming from a ppr (+5 to mental resistance)
they should never beable to cap it... monks made them so monks have the advantage over them
Monk armour should have NO resistance AT ALL to psi based damage because monk robes requier the psi to flow freely so monks have to invest to get any sort of return from psi defence
spys and pe's on the other hand have a new avenue open to them. then can either invest heavily in mental resistance. this enables them to be a better team player. they use less psi based route for buffs and take forien buffs off monks AND gain the added advantage of the resistance to normal damage that investing heavily in "mental resistance" gives
OR
Relly on there armour (60-100 for spy-pe) and invest in defencinve modules to help inprove there solo playability
just an idea to help add a little diversity in the game
1) or 2) with lower psi-damage percentage, speccing that certain resist shouldn't be requirement for survival, but merely a small bit of gold in the scales.
ok brains worked it out now
OPTION 4
Change it to -=- Mental Resistance
change all monk modules to XX% psi damage and whatever damage they currently do. to be decided on type of module and lvl n so on.
base points in "Mental resistance add the following" (the actual value would requier some looking into to make sure unbalancing doesnt occure)
0.3 points to poison
0.2-0.4 points to force
0.25-0.5 points to piercing
0.1-0.2 energy
0.2-0.3 fire
0.2-0.3 xray
1-3 points in resist psionics
HOWEVER armour based modifers ONLY resists psi based damage
Standard tank armour should come with around 130-140 base with a posible extra 20 coming from a ppr (+5 to mental resistance)
they should never beable to cap it... monks made them so monks have the advantage over them
Monk armour should have NO resistance AT ALL to psi based damage because monk robes requier the psi to flow freely so monks have to invest to get any sort of return from psi defence
spys and pe's on the other hand have a new avenue open to them. then can either invest heavily in mental resistance. this enables them to be a better team player. they use less psi based route for buffs and take forien buffs off monks AND gain the added advantage of the resistance to normal damage that investing heavily in "mental resistance" gives
OR
Relly on there armour (60-100 for spy-pe) and invest in defencinve modules to help inprove there solo playability
just an idea to help add a little diversity in the game
then apus would have a huge advantadge in killing ppus, you will still see tons of monks at an op war.
then apus would have a huge advantadge in killing ppus, you will still see tons of monks at an op war.
that would depend on how much resist psionics each mental resistance point gave
it would requier 200 base (un obtainable) for 1 point per
it would requier 66 base (14 lvls) at 3 points per
and as a ppu never caps resistance any way 50 points would probably be enough
besides that the fact that only a small proprotion of a monks damage (less than half) would be psi should also be taken into acount
im thinking 2 would be the optimal amount. 100 base to cap withough armour (40 lvls) but monks arnt suposed to cap resistance anyway
sanityislost
11-04-06, 02:50
yea im thinking option 1 atm
SiL ..:..
Apocalypsox
11-04-06, 08:15
harr its night and im tired and sick dont flamez0rz me.
Option imadumbasstbh <- me
Change the actual damage types used in PSI mods-
I.E Fire Apoc would be "Mental Fire damage" (50% psi damage 50% fire damage) etc. with the rest of the spells. PSI
resist works to take that 50% psi damage you take down.
option 1
Its never had its use and I can think of a better way to make it work. Get rid of it for less confusion to the newbs.
1 - dont forget to remove the Lom pills for it :p,
WasLearHimself
14-04-06, 02:14
Option 1 definately, The rest would cause more resist complications to pe's and spies, gimping not only their ppu spells, but the resist wouldnt even be enough.... Bleh Meh, just thinking about keeping it in makes me nautious. o_O
Stop having primary no reactions and use your head a little!
Resist PSI? Empower monks... Herm... I dont see where it would... Yes they can put resist psi whhooohhhooo! But who deals psi damage? Herm??? Only monks! So basicly it would just be harder or longer for a monk to kill another one exept ofcourse if suddenly the Cursed Soul starts dealing psi damages... herm...
Secondly, PE and Tanks will have the Tank heal tools, the Spy will have his nano regeneration tools, ect... So that will be something totaly different... Off course, it might annoy the people who wanted to both use the TL 10 heal while using the new healing toys they will have...
No, look at the bigger picture, resist psi, but also, resist piercing. If you have both, then the monk looses from the resist piercing skill and gains from the resist psi... And also think about the Monk Aiming skill they want to put instead of mental steadness... Be open and think of the game as a whole, and maybe not only thinking "OMG i will have to LOM, or OMG I am not gonna be ubber anymore because this will change..." The rebalancing is going to make NC a whole new game...
Option 2 or 3 on my side!
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