View Full Version : Hitbox System
We will adjust the hitbox system so that, for example, the current inaccuracies in damage calculations will no longer appear. We have also thought about making the system more meaningful. An interesting idea was that injuries in specific hit zones not only cause a loss of HP, but also have other negative effects. For example, heavy injuries to legs would slow a character down, while injuries to the torso could reduce stamina or carrying capacity. This should improve the tactical choices in PvP.
We'd like to hear your suggestions for possible penalties caused by heavy injuries to legs, torso and head.
Well, we already have damaged legs nerf runspeed.
Its not really a bad thing, although it does become the case that someone who can aim descisivley for the legs currently has a big advantage - they can stop their oponenet dodgin quite qucikly. But, it does take skill to do that (although significantly less so with a monk)
It would seem only fair however if damageing the differnt areas also had an effect. What would head damage do? Make aiming harder?
My only concern is that this all points towards once somebody has started to win a fight, its very hard to turn the tide. This mabe desirable in some ways, but its likley to encourage zone/stealth/whatever whoring.
Head shots could give a mild drug flash effect. And torso shots could do as you said and kill stamina -pool- or could negatively affect combat skills, ie a 20% loss of HC,PC,etc skill.
Head shots could give a mild drug flash effect. And torso shots could do as you said and kill stamina -pool- or could negatively affect combat skills, ie a 20% loss of HC,PC,etc skill.
I would disagree, the tactical choice here is that it does more damage. Do you go for a kill-him-before-he-kills-me tactical choice by going for the head, or do you make it easier for yourself by taking out his runspeed, then going for the head.
As it stands, the torso doesn't have any bonuses (as far as I can tell!?!).
EDIT: What the issue is, I think, is the fact that once you blasted the hell out of a certain hitbox, (blackened it), then it the damage you do is pitiful. Maybe make it so that it takes damage from other parts, but that wouldn't make sense - why would shooting the head hurt your legs? (Unless you think of it the other way round, as the body redistributing health)....
Oh I don't know. I'm confusing myself.
Eddie
ie a 20% loss of HC,PC,etc skill.
Rendering some players incapable of firing weapons within the first clip of their opposition? I dont like the sound of drugflash for headshots as then players are then blind after the first clip from their opposition.
Reductions in STA or PSI pools would be too easily combated with boosters, how about...
Head Shots,
Perhaps increase the psi points used when casting a spell as being hit in the head would effect your concentration, so concentrating harder/having a bashed in head would need you to use more "mana" points to cast something.
Torso Shots,
Working in the same way as my psi suggestion, stamina drain is increased when hit in the torso so running and firing consumes more points.
Although this too could be combated with boosters, it would need alot more than if the enemy simply knocked your sta/psi down as it would be lowered by your own actions too.
Leg Shots,
As it is now reducing run speed but toned down from its current rate by a bit as its a touch too much in my oppinion although it does make sence.
Only one discussion this week? No feedback from past discussion either?
Rendering some players incapable of firing weapons within the first clip of their opposition? I dont like the sound of drugflash for headshots as then players are then blind after the first clip from their opposition.Well currently the best way to win is to take out your opponent's legs, making him slow as a slug. What difference is a slight drug haze, or slightly reduced weapon effectiveness? They all work out about the same imo, and do give choices as to what part of your opponent's abilities you want to 'nerf' first. When all 3 hitboxes are black, then their health is zero and their dead. :p
We have to take into consideration RoF of weapons and what effect this will have on body areas.
For example a Speed Gun might be more useful for hitting the chest (if there was a stamina drain) than a Silent Hunter.
Or would it be proportional to amount of damage done rather than RoF?
If so this would effect some classes more than others rather than some gun firing speeds. (More damage would effect PPUs less and APUs/spies more but APUs would get the least benefit from this if it was based on RoF and the most advantage from it being based on damage.)
What about the Healing Light with its non-locational damage?
[edit]
A HUGE NO to drug flash when getting hit ANYWHERE on the body and a BIGGER NO to having weapon skills decreased. Very bad idea in my opinion.
More pool used for spell casting when being head-shotted? I could live with that.
Tough call in my opinion.
Another [edit]
With this drug flash idea, it might stack with the current maximum drug flash, leaving some players totally and absolutely 100% fucked.
All weapons would have to get locational damage right?
edit:A HUGE NO to drug flash when getting hit ANYWHERE on the body and a BIGGER NO to having weapon skills decreased. Very bad idea in my opinion.Why not? Getting your legs broken is almost always certain death, this would give a tactical choice so that that isn't always the first target.
All weapons would have to get locational damage right?
edit:Why not? Getting your legs broken is almost always certain death, this would give a tactical choice so that that isn't always the first target.
Good point, HL needs some sort of, well mechanic to actually do location damage.
lol - Unless it gave all three or none of the advantages :D
To be honest I don't think it should get any of the advantages of hitting a location since you're fortunate enough to not have to aim for someones head, torso or legs. That's a bonus in itself.
I think it's too easy to take out someone's legs atm, and it takes the longest to recover.
Head injuries, how about have a knock to the head? I'm not keen on the drugflash idea? How about "white-ing out". (Where the screen for a brief second goes a bit white and bright)
If you decided to make torso injuries reduce carrying capacity, the monks would be badly hit the most by this change. You take their legs out, so they are reduced to a crawl. Monks have low carrying capacity as it it, so when you hit their torso, they become a nice stationary target. You may as well give monks a sign that says "Just kill me now, I'm a sitting duck"
The aim isn't (or atleast damn well shouldn't be) to make combat realistic - it should be to make it fun. Therefor I think drug flash side effects is a bad idea.
As for non-locational weapons - yes I think there should be some - in particular in the HC and Psi weapon classes.
Personally I think that as it's the easiest area to hit, there shouldn't be any extra side effect of hitting the torso. Otherwise you have penalties for every area of the body and the extra bonus on the other areas doesn't really count for anything any more.
I also hate the idea of reducing carrying capacity or stats.
I think guessing your opponent's strong points and hitting where it might hurt the most would be fun... but I'm nuts so... :p
I think guessing your opponent's strong points and hitting where it might hurt the most would be fun... but I'm nuts so... :p
Don't we already do that through the different ammo types tho?
to be fair no... this is just really stupid, leave it as it is or even remove nerfing runspeed if ur feet have been hit once or twice, just give us one big hitbox for all of us, anything other than that is just purposefully slowing down the gameplay... aiming at feet takes aim? yes, aiming at someone who can run full speed also takes aim? yes, don't try using that one to ya advantage =p
Bugs Gunny
21-04-06, 16:00
[ edited ]
Honestly, if this change will force people to crouch to do accurate shots, i would welcome it. (Would they implement proning, where you'd even get more accurary, i would like it even more...)
My issue with it rather is, i "feel" that it would turn combat into a "first attack wins" game. If this can be avoided, i have no problems with it, but i am rather unsure if such effects could be made in a way which is not unfair, annoying and overpowering and people still see a reason to go for them.
so all areas get critical damage ? then there should be some kind of aim for high damage monk modules.
lower the effekt of leg damage a little but damage leg and foot bone enforcement.
a small stamina loss and damage to backbone, breat and heard implants
i think the best thing of head damage would be 1% SI - that would seperate the PE from the spys the hybrite from the pures monks because ppl would need to calculate that into their setups.
BUT i think a visual effekt and damage to a brain implant would be OK to.
i think the best thing of head damage would be 1% SI - that would seperate the PE from the spys the hybrite from the pures monks because ppl would need to calculate that into their setups.90% of all possible setups are setup exactly for zero SI. With even 1% APUs couldnt use HL anymore, PPUs couldnt use their highest spells, Spies would drop out of their PA and couldnt draw guns or cast shelter, PEs would be completely fucked.
The only class that could actually live with this was the tank cause he can spec higher t-c than he needs without really sacrificing any skills.
Bad idea.
Dribble Joy
21-04-06, 17:29
We must avoid a situation that becomes a para equivalent. Flash, SI and speed (specifically turn speed) should not be result of damage. Psi drain, sta drain and maybe MAYBE runspeed, but nothing else.
I meant a mild flash, like after a single 5min drug wears off. Just enough to mess with your sight a bit but not much else. And of course it wouldn't stack with regular drug flash, it would have to be treated separately.
The hit to weapons skills I suggested would mean say 150% damage and 160rpm on your judge (185 is cap right? i can't remember :o), instead of both capped, also not fatal. edit: TC and MST would have to be left out of course.
Infact to go further towards affecting pool totals how about:
Head Shots
These do 90% of their normal damage and the other 10% is converted into additional psi pool drain increase. If 100 points of damage are done to the head (after resist calculations etc), only 90 points will come from the health pool and then for how ever long these effects will last the targeted runner's psi modules will require 110% of their normal psi pool cost.
This would be the same for HCK in HackNet too after all "The mind makes it real"
Torso Shots
These shots would simply do 100% of the normal damage, so if 100 points of damage are done to the torso, after resistance calculations 100points of health is removed from the health pool.
Leg Shots
This revolves around the removal of legs "breaking" nerfing run speed, instead of nerfing run speed by the legs becoming broken the damage would work in the same way as the head shot damage, if 100 points of damage are done after the other calculations 90 of that comes from the health pool and the other 10 is converted into an additional 10% stamina drain on any activity that involves the reduction of stamina.
So you'd have to change tactics when fighting different classes, you'd aim for the head for monks and the legs for everyone else i assume or a bit of both to really get the enemy's booster management steaming :p
This would mean no knackered legs so people wouldnt be slowed down removing the para-esque nature of the current system and create a reasonably fair system across all classes and play styles making booster management a more crucial thing during PvP.
And ofcourse you can still just shoot the crap out of people in the torso untill they fall over if you like.
90% of all possible setups are setup exactly for zero SI...
PPUs couldnt use their highest spells,...
Spies would drop out of their PA and couldnt draw guns or cast shelter,
PEs would be completely fucked. ...
1. well, thats why a lot of guns are worthless once u reach the skills to use the next one.
2. my PSI 97 (base)PPU without any MC5 stuff can use all his major defense spells at 9% SI and there is still one brain slot free.
3. yes there is a problem with highlevel PA but dont we agree that the basic requirements for them are to high anyway? didnt test it onhigh levels but my lower level spy can use his PE at 1% easy. on the shelter, i think that ability is removed anyway once the balance patch is live.
4. YES. PE would be fucked if they are losing the battle. but wasnt it KK intention anyway to make the PE different to the SPY in using the high level guns ?
but as i told. it was just a idea and my final statement fits alot better into the things.
I kinda like that too Tratos, make PvP fast paced again. My suggestions are more oriented towards slow tactical PvP.
I think extra damage on the head and reduced runspeed fo rhte legs are fine. As Athon said....having an effect for hitting the torso kingof reduces the benefit to havng good enough aim to hit other areas.
For the head I think...extra damage..or Modified drug flash:snowy screen(like it is now) without the messed up movement every few seconds.
For the legs...slowed runspeed.
For the torso...no bonus at all. The bonus itself is the larger target to hit altogether.<requiring less aiming and timing etc>
[EDIT]That or Tratos's suggestion{\EDIT]
Infact to go further towards affecting pool totals how about:
Head Shots
These do 90% of their normal damage and the other 10% is converted into additional psi pool drain increase. If 100 points of damage are done to the head (after resist calculations etc), only 90 points will come from the health pool and then for how ever long these effects will last the targeted runner's psi modules will require 110% of their normal psi pool cost.
This would be the same for HCK in HackNet too after all "The mind makes it real"
Torso Shots
These shots would simply do 100% of the normal damage, so if 100 points of damage are done to the torso, after resistance calculations 100points of health is removed from the health pool.
Leg Shots
This revolves around the removal of legs "breaking" nerfing run speed, instead of nerfing run speed by the legs becoming broken the damage would work in the same way as the head shot damage, if 100 points of damage are done after the other calculations 90 of that comes from the health pool and the other 10 is converted into an additional 10% stamina drain on any activity that involves the reduction of stamina.
So you'd have to change tactics when fighting different classes, you'd aim for the head for monks and the legs for everyone else i assume or a bit of both to really get the enemy's booster management steaming :p
This would mean no knackered legs so people wouldnt be slowed down removing the para-esque nature of the current system and create a reasonably fair system across all classes and play styles making booster management a more crucial thing during PvP.
And ofcourse you can still just shoot the crap out of people in the torso untill they fall over if you like.Best idea so far. :)
We will adjust the hitbox system so that, for example, the current inaccuracies in damage calculations will no longer appear.
which inaccuracies?
Hell-demon
21-04-06, 18:40
I see this balance bringing a new era of chat getting spammed with
"BOOM HEADSHOT!"
From some of the replys I have read I see that some of you don't know how the current system works.
Say you aim for the head the whole fight, your health is split up in to the 3 parts of your body, so as soon as your head goes black then it starts taking damage from your torso (which in turn lowers the damage you do as their health goes lower), and then after your torso goes black then it starts taking damage from your legs, which is why at the very end of a fight it is alot harder to do damage then at the start.
Now say you aim at the legs the whole fight, you will do a little damage untill their legs go black, and then they also have the run speed nerf from that, now after their legs are black it will take damage from the torso, and you will do a little more damage then when you started beacuse you are damageing the torso instead of the legs, now when that goes out you will take damage from your head, whick makes the damage done even higher then at the start of the fight (all while you can't move beacuse your legs are out).
As you can see hitting legs is by so far it's not even funny the best option for killing somone.
I see this balance bringing a new era of chat getting spammed with
"BOOM HEADSHOT!"
<the-sniper-in-me> And what's wrong with that? =D
Head shots should do more damage since the head is the weakest part of the body really. In some games I play a head shot is an instant kill in others it's double damage, though that would unbalance the game, but more damage to the head is a good idea.
Torso shots should effect accuracy (basically because the arms are there) and perhaps also a medium stamina drain like being winded.
Legs well this effect is already inplace and is fine (slow down of run speed)
I really dislike the direction this idea takes...
Any kind of remote malus in pvp will drain the fun. Think of para as one example.
I think having 3 hitboxes is good.. but dont cripple the attacked player, reducing his abilitiy to defend himself with the same power (think of 2 exactly identical chars & playerskill).
There's already a malus for legshots.. thats well enough. Now make the amount of inflicted dmg thats taken from the main health-pool depend on the hitbox: head 100%, torso 85%, legs 75% + malus.
Instead of throwing in funky malus features that will unbalance fights and make them less fair/even, go ahead with the fixes you already applied to the heals ... make sure health is being lost according to the hits by having health in a single pool rather than 3 ...
Here's how I see it: If there are advantages of hitting every body part, then there are no bad parts to hit, meaning that there is less reward for say, being able to hit every shot in the head. Infact, I would like to see a bonus to dmg dealt if a lot of shots are hit without missing. As for leg shots, I think that it should only be tempoary reduction in speed e.g. 2-3 seconds of slowness. However, if it was made so that the areas of the hitboxes that had effects were small and far apart, then it would be OK to introduce many different effects since they would require skill to hit.
They could include: feet (not entire leg area), just the actual head (not including shoulders), and perhaps the heart.
I wanted to give a little input about the "hitbox system".
Drones hardly can target anyone in front of a UG as the hitbox locks on the UG and not the player hugging it.
the Hitbox of a bat stretches as the animation of wings move and is quite annoying but that's just a personnal opinion.
Is it even possible to remove the hitboxes ? make weapons lock on players, not on a square around a player. Would be nice to get rid of the huge squares and just have a fixed target box that contour's the runner/ug.
I also think headshots should be worst than the runspeed nerf when shooting legs. torso shots should hit stamina indeed.
Yup i realy like tratos's idea.
But i would also like third person recticle to actualy repersent where the gun is being aimed. Its realy annoying the way it is now.
Is it even possible to remove the hitboxes ? make weapons lock on players, not on a square around a player. Would be nice to get rid of the huge squares and just have a fixed target box that contour's the runner/ug.
You seem to be confusing the selected-player box and the hit box - IMO they're probably not directly related. I could be wrong tho.
Hit boxes, if they act like other games (perhaps some more advanced games now use the mdoels directly or something, but from what I gather this is how most games atleast used to do it even if they don't naymore) are probably a cuboid around each area they cover - for example the head hitbox will be a cuboid the width, height and depth of the head model.
With regards to the underground taking precendence for drones, this is possibly a bug that needs to be looked at - perhaps implementing some drone specific rules about targeting of non-killable objects would help.
sanityislost
22-04-06, 04:10
Infact to go further towards affecting pool totals how about:
Head Shots
These do 90% of their normal damage and the other 10% is converted into additional psi pool drain increase. If 100 points of damage are done to the head (after resist calculations etc), only 90 points will come from the health pool and then for how ever long these effects will last the targeted runner's psi modules will require 110% of their normal psi pool cost.
This would be the same for HCK in HackNet too after all "The mind makes it real"
Torso Shots
These shots would simply do 100% of the normal damage, so if 100 points of damage are done to the torso, after resistance calculations 100points of health is removed from the health pool.
Leg Shots
This revolves around the removal of legs "breaking" nerfing run speed, instead of nerfing run speed by the legs becoming broken the damage would work in the same way as the head shot damage, if 100 points of damage are done after the other calculations 90 of that comes from the health pool and the other 10 is converted into an additional 10% stamina drain on any activity that involves the reduction of stamina.
So you'd have to change tactics when fighting different classes, you'd aim for the head for monks and the legs for everyone else i assume or a bit of both to really get the enemy's booster management steaming :p
This would mean no knackered legs so people wouldnt be slowed down removing the para-esque nature of the current system and create a reasonably fair system across all classes and play styles making booster management a more crucial thing during PvP.
And ofcourse you can still just shoot the crap out of people in the torso untill they fall over if you like.
This idea ftw...alot better than fucking up transport...
SiL ..:..
SI for headshots ???
DRUGFLASH ????????
TRANSPORT PENALTIES ??
[ edited ]
If any of these ideas are implemented i quit.
Seriously all this dont make any sense at all.
Infact to go further towards affecting pool totals how about:
Head Shots
These do 90% of their normal damage and the other 10% is converted into additional psi pool drain increase. If 100 points of damage are done to the head (after resist calculations etc), only 90 points will come from the health pool and then for how ever long these effects will last the targeted runner's psi modules will require 110% of their normal psi pool cost.
This would be the same for HCK in HackNet too after all "The mind makes it real"
Torso Shots
These shots would simply do 100% of the normal damage, so if 100 points of damage are done to the torso, after resistance calculations 100points of health is removed from the health pool.
Leg Shots
This revolves around the removal of legs "breaking" nerfing run speed, instead of nerfing run speed by the legs becoming broken the damage would work in the same way as the head shot damage, if 100 points of damage are done after the other calculations 90 of that comes from the health pool and the other 10 is converted into an additional 10% stamina drain on any activity that involves the reduction of stamina.
So you'd have to change tactics when fighting different classes, you'd aim for the head for monks and the legs for everyone else i assume or a bit of both to really get the enemy's booster management steaming :p
This would mean no knackered legs so people wouldnt be slowed down removing the para-esque nature of the current system and create a reasonably fair system across all classes and play styles making booster management a more crucial thing during PvP.
And ofcourse you can still just shoot the crap out of people in the torso untill they fall over if you like.
/signed
Apocalypsox
22-04-06, 08:30
tratos idea 4tw tbh. /signedz0rz
I haven't read the whole thread, but I don't think it is the best way for balancing PvP. As it is, if you aim the leg, the enemy get slower.
Now try to think about how easier it is to aim the torso than the legs. that what makes it already its advantage. I don't think there's a need for another negative effect.
I think the system is fine as it is, and should not be changed. (Just maybe correct the heal discovering while your legs are "broken").
I wanted to give a little input about the "hitbox system".
Drones hardly can target anyone in front of a UG as the hitbox locks on the UG and not the player hugging it.
the Hitbox of a bat stretches as the animation of wings move and is quite annoying but that's just a personnal opinion.
Is it even possible to remove the hitboxes ? make weapons lock on players, not on a square around a player. Would be nice to get rid of the huge squares and just have a fixed target box that contour's the runner/ug.
Let me just explain a little bit about the hitbox system. The frame that appears around players when you target them is NOT the hitbox. It is there for visual guidance only, so even if the frame was 1 mile long it would not make it easier to aim. You actually need to target at the player model to hit them, and it is seperated by invisible lines between head, torso and legs.
EDIT: athon beat me to it :(
SI for headshots ???
DRUGFLASH ????????
TRANSPORT PENALTIES ??
[ edited ]
If any of these ideas are implemented i quit.
Seriously all this dont make any sense at all.
I find this funny, coming from you.
I don't think NC even has "hixboxes" in the traditional, FPS sense.
Anyway, as long as the effects from locations are small so a fight can still turn around, rather than who gets inhtebest damage in first 2 seconds being almost guaranteed a win, it sounds fine to me.
Anyway, as long as the effects from locations are small so a fight can still turn around, rather than who gets inhtebest damage in first 2 seconds being almost guaranteed a win, it sounds fine to me.
why? there's only 2 options concerning the malus idea...
either they give you (as the attacker) a clear advantage or they do not make a notable impact on the fight (what you proposed there). In the latter case - which I by far prefer (see post above), you can drop the idea all-together and focus on debugging the hitbox sys and let the only difference be the % of inflicted dmg -WITHOUT- hindering the defenders ability to fight back.
I don't think NC even has "hixboxes" in the traditional, FPS sense.
Yes it does, for player models as has been explained above. Mobs don't have hitboxes though.
N
/edit - typo
In my opinion force weapons should do concussion damage when hit in head (or anywhere near in case explosive weapons like RL or GL) in a way, which is similar to drugflash, but still not drugflash. Silent hunter bullet shot into your head will make stars spinning around your head.
Shooting at legs should make the opponent slow down, but only to a point, where the advantage of speed is lost, but the enemy is not just an sitting target.
I have a few suggestions...
Localisation of damage is nice, here is a very pushed up idea... Different armors block different damage types right? Those armors are weared at different location and thus different hitboxes on the character.
So we could have that affect damage taken... If you have an Inquisition Helmet on your head, and that some one blast you with a Ray of God moded Xray, at the head, then maybe the damage taken should be higher than if you are hit by a the Same Ray of god, but modded fire. That is the same for about every weapon and armor.
My second suggestion is the following. When you get hit in the head, or in the hands (donc thing there is such a precise loc) you loose your target lock, or your reticle gets bigger. Some how, if you suddenly get a hit on the head, it would be logical that the shock breaks your concentration for a second.
Making negative side effects with every hitbox will destroy pvp.
Keep the side effects as they are (just leg side effects) and just tweak the damage dealt to each section of the body.
Decreasing your ability to attack when you get attacked just doesnt seem fun for some reason.....
If nothing is added i would like to see the speed at which run speed is nerfed by being shot in the legs being brought down a bit.
This is a balancing forum.
The hitbox system is balanced.
In another MMORPG (Risk Your Life) when you are gettin close to death colours begin to fade and the screen becomes black & white making it harder to see, i thought that such a feature would be great in NeoCron both in PvP and PvM, just a random thought.
On the topic of hitboxes i dont see much of a problem with the current system, well except the damage reduction if you blacken out a hitbox (ie. the legs) as stated earlier.
- Nap
This is a balancing forum.
The hitbox system is balanced.
Thank you for your overwhelming wisdom.
How about trying to improve something instead of spewing out crap like this? Ya know, add some flavour to the game? Something new and interesting?
This is a balancing forum.
The hitbox system is balanced.
I think thats absolutely right. we should concentrate on the things that are unbalanced, instead of thinking about new features that we dont really need.
if you wanna add a 'new and interesting flavour' to the game, dont call it balancing.
It's probably safe to assume that just because there is a thread about it, doesn't mean that they are allocating all their time towards it. It could also be connected to something they are changing atm, and they have the oppertunity to improve.
Well what good is anything in a game if it isn't fun or interesting?
If you don't know what you're talking about, or you don't really want to contribute to the topic of the thread, then you should keep your peace.
N
We will adjust the hitbox system so that, for example, the current inaccuracies in damage calculations will no longer appear. We have also thought about making the system more meaningful. An interesting idea was that injuries in specific hit zones not only cause a loss of HP, but also have other negative effects. For example, heavy injuries to legs would slow a character down, while injuries to the torso could reduce stamina or carrying capacity. This should improve the tactical choices in PvP.
We'd like to hear your suggestions for possible penalties caused by heavy injuries to legs, torso and head.
Just thought i'd repost that so that people can a) stay on track b) remember what was originally stated
Heavyporker
23-04-06, 23:01
Do you guys know what I would love?
If hitboxes were invisible. Still there, but invisible.
That way, no one could use the cheap trick of just spinning around with their reticle in deep grass/shrubbery/dark areas to find the neon-colored hitboxes of anyone that was coming near them.
Character name/faction/etc could still pop up, if, say, you were within 10 meters of them, or if you had a tool or eye implant that increased the range of that (automatic identification ability).
Of course, to fix the aiming difficulty (if any), reticles could just automatically close according to your shooting ability (like AoE weapons already do - you don't target people with them, you just target an area and the reticle will close on its own).
That would improve things so much in my opinion.
Anyways, to get back on track, head damage should be represented by S.I. up to 10% max (that'd be like 50% total health). Despite what "top" pvpers may say, a lot of people don't carry only high-requirement weapons. Heck, any capped player can use their subclass's epic weapon even with a respectable amount of S.I. A lot of APUs/Hybrids use the TL 90 psi modules.
I liked the idea of torso damage doing 100% straight up damage, and leg damage split between damage and runspeed loss. Balances things out rather nicely.
What if people could shoot arms/weapons? Then arm damage could be represented by -weaponlore!!! Make it harder for THEM to shoot YOU!
Do you guys know what I would love?
If hitboxes were invisible. Still there, but invisible.
That way, no one could use the cheap trick of just spinning around with their reticle in deep grass/shrubbery/dark areas to find the neon-colored hitboxes of anyone that was coming near them.
Character name/faction/etc could still pop up, if, say, you were within 10 meters of them, or if you had a tool or eye implant that increased the range of that (automatic identification ability).
Of course, to fix the aiming difficulty (if any), reticles could just automatically close according to your shooting ability (like AoE weapons already do - you don't target people with them, you just target an area and the reticle will close on its own).
That would improve things so much in my opinion.
Anyways, to get back on track, head damage should be represented by S.I. up to 10% max (that'd be like 50% total health). Despite what "top" pvpers may say, a lot of people don't carry only high-requirement weapons. Heck, any capped player can use their subclass's epic weapon even with a respectable amount of S.I. A lot of APUs/Hybrids use the TL 90 psi modules.
I liked the idea of torso damage doing 100% straight up damage, and leg damage split between damage and runspeed loss. Balances things out rather nicely.
What if people could shoot arms/weapons? Then arm damage could be represented by -weaponlore!!! Make it harder for THEM to shoot YOU!
10% si????? are you crazy?
other that ok ideas. But seriously si loss for head shots=Game breaking and almost impossible to balance
back from a masivly long partying binge n i find this thread wooo =D me likes
my opinion... shooting for areas should make weapons harder to cap by moving the cap values further up the curve they currently lie on...
Also the severity of the malus should be based on % of health left in the region not if its currently getting hit
Shoot for the head
*greater damage
*Reduce opponents aiming
----10-20% lowering your Weapons base handeling handeling by 12-24%MAX E.g. a weapon with 120 artifact handeling would work like a weapon with 108-96%
*Reduce opponents Stamina Booster Rate
----At 100% head damage stamina boosters should only work at 75% effectivness
*Reduce Opponents Psi Pool Regeneration
----At 100% head damage psi pool regeneration (with and withough boosters) should be halfed
----Random screen glitches such as flashes of light/bluring/drug flash at 75% or higher head damage, lasting only a split second each time
Shoot for Chest
*average damage
*decrease RoF
----10-20% lowering your Weapons base Frequency by 12-24%MAX E.g. a weapon with 120 artifact Frequency would work like a weapon with 108-96%
*At 100% Torso damage decrease rate of medikits/heals by 25%
*at 100% decrease stamina regen by half and decrease booster use another 25%
shoot for legs
*Lower damage than normal
*decreases run speed*
As each area does damage to the weapons base stats/ a gun that is 120% artifact would drop to the EFFECTIVNESS stats of 108-96%... drasticaly decreasing its ease of capping... however a player who wishes to avoid this can over spec points in weplore/other things which would normaly be used to capp the weapon. and then even if his body is damaged drasticaly he could still cap frequency IF he has invested enough points
basicaly this rewards people who over cap there weapons thus loosing out on something else (eg spys losing hack or tanks loosing hybid meele/heavy abilitys and so on)
-=edit erm... 9 i think lol=-
this enables all weapons to have there cap values lowered slightly... then better weapons could be brough into game that are extreamly hard to cap. but when capped, aim better and fire faster (which ovisouly would be reduced after the person has been atacked because overcapping them would be very very hard
The hitbox system in itself (the design) works fine right now and is pretty much balanced.
If you can consistently aim for people's leg you get a nice advantage.
On the other hand what is to be balanced i think is the way the weapons work toward the hitboxes.
For instance, beam type of spells shouldnt do locational damage, but the lance type should. The blasts should be AoE.
The beam/raygun weapons shouldnt do locational damage, but they shouldnt be more effective at finishing off ppl like they do right now.
And after tought well maybe, just maybe, some kind of "kncoking" feature could be added to headshots, when made with a locational-type weapon.
But plz nothing like SI or drugflash, something just like a bigrecoil would be just fine.
Rendering some players incapable of firing weapons within the first clip of their opposition? I dont like the sound of drugflash for headshots as then players are then blind after the first clip from their opposition.
Reductions in STA or PSI pools would be too easily combated with boosters, how about...
Head Shots,
Perhaps increase the psi points used when casting a spell as being hit in the head would effect your concentration, so concentrating harder/having a bashed in head would need you to use more "mana" points to cast something.
Torso Shots,
Working in the same way as my psi suggestion, stamina drain is increased when hit in the torso so running and firing consumes more points.
Although this too could be combated with boosters, it would need alot more than if the enemy simply knocked your sta/psi down as it would be lowered by your own actions too.
Leg Shots,
As it is now reducing run speed but toned down from its current rate by a bit as its a touch too much in my oppinion although it does make sence.
Only one discussion this week? No feedback from past discussion either?
If KK are going to tweak the hitbox system, this is one system I want to see tried out.
The one class that would do well from this, would be the tank, but he's a tough fellow so I don't think he's going to be worrying too much about a loss of PSI mana.
It seems like tratos system is tought only for monks. I better like the Zovos idea.
Thinking it RP wise, hit in the head would mean less concentration, true, but this must affect mana pool/regeneration and aiming speed as well. Aiming head would result in harder chance to hit. Normal damage.
Shoot in the legs are fine like now, maybe reduce it a little. HIgher chance to hit than head shot. Normal damage.
Torso shot normal chance to hit and normal damage.
This way you will have the chance to give little malus to your opponent at cost of loss of chance to hit. Btw all malus should be not too high
If you don't know what you're talking about, or you don't really want to contribute to the topic of the thread, then you should keep your peace.
N
Anyways, to get back on track, head damage should be represented by S.I. up to 10% max (that'd be like 50% total health). Despite what "top" pvpers may say, a lot of people don't carry only high-requirement weapons. Heck, any capped player can use their subclass's epic weapon even with a respectable amount of S.I. A lot of APUs/Hybrids use the TL 90 psi modules.
As niddy said, if you don't know what your talking about, don't post. I'm sick of random useless ideas, you haven't even bothered explaining what would be the point of it or even considered properly how this would affect combat.
My comment was not intended to stop suggestions, it was intended to stop people stating things as facts when they aren't. We welcome all suggestions but we also welcome constructive discussion.
N
Well for starters i would like to see APU beam spells (Fire Apoc, Holy Lightning etc) made locationless, as its always been a mistery to me how a magic beam from the sky is able to target the legs of an enemy... unless you change the gfx of the spell so that it comes from the hand of the Monk then ok, leave as be.
(basically turning the spell gfx 90 degrees, also fixes LoS issues :) )
Other than that, i like ZovoS' idea, but these effects shouldnt be massively huge, just slight advantages, as the effect of blowing the legs away at the moment is a bit OTT... other than that all good.
My comment was not intended to stop suggestions, it was intended to stop people stating things as facts when they aren't. We welcome all suggestions but we also welcome constructive discussion.
N I know ;)
But that suggestion deserved a flame :)
Wow reading more of this thread is starting to worry me.. seriously, you people can't honestly think all of this shit is gonna make things better? or balanced? lol, don't even know how this is considered as balance. It's just a way of slowing down the gameplay and making fights decided a lot more over who get's the first hits in. Remove all of the "different" effects given by shooting different areas of the body and just give us one hitbox, things work a LOT better when they're simpler, we don't need this part of combat messed around with.
I like Tratos's idea very much. It is a "smooth" system which doesn't directly hammer someone. It just makes actions taken by that player cost more <place stat here>. I very much like the idea.
I think there might be one problem though...stuff like the speed gat on someones head. OWE!.
I think Tratos's idea is simplest to implement meaning the least work for the already overworked servers and the most straight forward design.
The only question then is to decide how heals would work to resolve the inflicted penalty.
Hypothetically:
If someone gets hit in the legs and head to accumulate 20% increase in psi use and 10% in stamina drain...
And is down to 150/200 health.
Is the reduction of the malus based on percentage of damage healed?
ie. Medkits and heals up to 160/200(I know it would heal more). Then he stands at 16% psi and 8% stamina malus?
Or would it work some other way?
I'm trying to figure a way that would not overtax the servers more. They are already used to SI so Tratos's system works well with mechanisms already in place I would imagine.
Hitboxes is a good idea but i am afraid you will have problems like:
after 2 shots I cannot move,
after 2 shots i am overloaded,
so effects on movement, load should be light
I'd like to add : if you implement hitboxes,
keep in mind that you should implement "non fatal zone"
I mean if you receive a shot in the leg you are incapacited but you have few chance to die
I think that such a system would be too complicated
[ edited - they don't care ]
Hitboxes is a good idea but i am afraid you will have problems like
I'd like to add : if you implement hitboxes,
wtf are you talking about? :confused:
I know niddy doesn't like me quoting him like this but:
If you don't know what you're talking about, or you don't really want to contribute to the topic of the thread, then you should keep your peace.
N
Let me highlight some stuff for people again:
There are already hitboxes in the game
Hitboxes are NOT the lines that appear around people when you target them
As thanatos pointed out in post at the start of the thread, they have some hitbox stuff to fix, which most deffinitely does concern balancing because currently, low dmg weapons are at a disadvantage (i'll explain if anyone dares disagree with this)
If they are already looking at fixing the code, it will probably be a good time to add the effects, instead of having to come back later.
Giga...I'm not here to disagree but I'm curious as to the problems with low damage weapons. I'm not informed about what the problem is. Would you mind explaining for my sake anyways?
Oki doki. Currently, the bug is that is that you take lower dmg when you've got more body parts dmged i.e. when you have lower health.
So lets say you have a xbow originally doing 39 dmg per hit and BoH doing 25 dmg per hit. Lets say, after a tick from the heal, the xbow does 30 dmg and the BoH does 16 dmg. Originally the xbow had an advantage of 56% more dmg, which has now grown to 87.5% more dmg.
Let's say they both now have dmged body parts and are only taking 50% of the original dmg, and still minus 9 dmg from heal tick. The xbow will do 10.5 dmg, and the BoH now does 3.5 dmg. The advantage the xbow has has now has grown to 300% more dmg.
Basically, it makes it near impossible to balance the weapons properly.
as i said my ideas are the only ones that still enable a player to fight back
they prevent consuption of boosters
capping of weapons
speed of chatacters
and so on... this means they can be combatted by over specing points AND it means that a player isnt left drugflashed/cant use his weapons/cant fight back if hes atacked withough realising...
basicaly anything wich lowers ability to fight is bad. anything wich hinders such as a mauls to the weapons stats is good
Oki doki. Currently, the bug is that is that you take lower dmg when you've got more body parts dmged i.e. when you have lower health.
So lets say you have a xbow originally doing 39 dmg per hit and BoH doing 25 dmg per hit. Lets say, after a tick from the heal, the xbow does 30 dmg and the BoH does 16 dmg. Originally the xbow had an advantage of 56% more dmg, which has now grown to 87.5% more dmg.
Let's say they both now have dmged body parts and are only taking 50% of the original dmg, and still minus 9 dmg from heal tick. The xbow will do 10.5 dmg, and the BoH now does 3.5 dmg. The advantage the xbow has has now has grown to 300% more dmg.
Basically, it makes it near impossible to balance the weapons properly.
you asume weapon damage and values and so on will stay the same... im asuming they are going to be changed in the re balancing
My comment was not intended to stop suggestions, it was intended to stop people stating things as facts when they aren't. We welcome all suggestions but we also welcome constructive discussion.
N
He doesn't like me nor the fact that I was downright disagreeing with the existance of this thread all together.
The suggestion to leave the hitbox system the way it is is probably the most constructive thing I could have said.
Agreed.
No Giga if you so know all about the weapons in this game, explain everyone why locational damage type of weapons do ridiculously low damage to low HP players, and why non-locational weapons are the best to finish ppl off.
The more i think about it the more i feel that all three hit boxes should be scrapped.
This would solve issues with heals and what not as only one hit box is to be healed rather than all 3, which would in turn allow for heals to be balanced easily.
According to the OP, the inaccuracies in the hitbox damage are going to be resolved anyway, so IMO we should assume that it remains 3 hitboxes with the damage bugs resolved.
Therefore IMO all this discussion about getting rid of locational damage altogether to resolve that problem is irrelevent.
you asume weapon damage and values and so on will stay the same... im asuming they are going to be changed in the re balancing
You assume your idea will work with the new changes.
You assume your idea will work with the new changes.
i asume the new changes would be worked around my idea :angel:
Heavyporker
25-04-06, 07:39
How offensive and rude, Giga. I would have thought that any sort of prolonged social contact would have taught you to watch your words and blunt your tongue.
Anyways, what I meant for my idea of S.I. from head damage was, if you lose 50% of your total health, then you can have a maximum of 10% SI. That comes out to, what, 1% S.I. from each 5% of your health you lose from head damage.
Not crippling, but definitely very disavantageous.
Also, my stating that many people don't only carry equipment that require that strain the player's ability to use (from requirements), was that even if one does take S.I. from getting hit, it by no means completely disarms them.
After all, a lot of pvping Gentanks carry along the Speedgun Cannon or a TT lasercannon, right? And pvping riflers a Tsunami Rifle, right?
The reason I like the S.I. idea for head damage is because many people already drug up to fight, and the visual impairment haze would probably make the comedown from the drug wearing off mid-fight worse.
Subskill impairment *might* be a little tricky to pull off and balance, but I concede that it would confer the ability for KK's tweaking to be much more precise. After all, would -10 weaponskill and -10 weaponlore for each 5% health you lost from getting hit in the head be equivalent to 1% S.I. per 5% head damage? KK would have to code a lot more, because you have to figure in pistol, rifle, melee, heavy, and psi into these calculations. Coding in the S.I. hits would make things easier for KK, I would think.
The problem with SI though is when you drop below the requirements for an implant. The implant would go red, instantly dropping a minimum of 5 mainskill points from the char. Also, at least in the case of 2 of my chars, one implant going would mean a chain reaction, one of my chars would lose 2 imps, my HC PE would lose 3. Then it's /set kill_self 1 time.
While i understand the SI idea, i think that it would only lead to frustration without any real benefit to the game.
Though, i also admit that i still think that putting a load of side-effects on different hitboxes would just reduce fun of playing without any real benefit for the game.
A damage modifier or some screenshaking for a hit on the head is fine. Perhaps some reduction of weaponlore and psi use is still acceptable, everything else would just be annoying. (Especially as long as "we players" take all the negatives and NPCs are not affected by location hits at all... )
Giga, if you don' understand what I am writing it is not my problem...
Please stop being so arrogant.
You are no Moderator, GM or from KK staff
so **** *** !!
If my posts are to be removed, I am sure Moderators can do it without you...
Giga, if you don' understand what I am writing it is not my problem...
Please stop being so arrogant.
You are no Moderator, GM or from KK staff
so **** *** !!
If my posts are to be removed, I am sure Moderators can do it without you...
They do say any posts that are not to do with balancing will be removed
KK Please Remove all Post in the Balancing Threads. As they proberly wont balance the game -
panto ur sig is to big
back on track like... if i lose a single SI point then im fucked and cant use anything because my armour comes off meaning my implants come out meaning my other implants come out n i am nurfed to hell n back
Agreed.
No Giga if you so know all about the weapons in this game, explain everyone why locational damage type of weapons do ridiculously low damage to low HP players, and why non-locational weapons are the best to finish ppl off. Because the hitbox system is bugged, as I said in my post :wtf:. None locational dmg weapons were balancing taking into consideration that they do dmg to all body parts (meaning that the actual dmg number per shot will be higher than locational weapons, because some of the dmg dealt is lower because of leg shots and torso shots).
you asume weapon damage and values and so on will stay the same... im asuming they are going to be changed in the re balancing
Unless heal is removed, and all weapons start doing the same dmg, then the hitbox bug needs to be fixed.
Bugs Gunny
25-04-06, 12:59
Say what you want, but i know for a fact giga knows more about pvp, weapons and setups than 90% of the people who post in the idiotic ballancing threads.
I looked at the first weeks of the threads, laughed and weeped at the same time.
I refuse to contribute to this pile of cowdung. It seems like every pvp noob and his long lost buddies now try to compensate for their lack of pvping by trying to "shine" in these threads with their bright ideas.
Well, bring on the bright ideas and on the testserver the guys and me will enjoy tearing them all up.
Did you people even think about the consequences of adding stuff like drugflash, lowered tc etc when you hit certain areas?
Situation:
Good pvper (moves fast, hits most shots)
Medium pvper (moves fast, but predicatble, hits 30-50% of shots)
3
2
1
go
Good pvper immediately lands his first 4 shots, the medium pvper gets drugflash and the reticle of his gun closes slower. Good pver now swings by mdium pver but keeps his mous over the target, next shots land.
The mdium pvper can now no longer shoot back as he's confused by the flash, he lost the tc needed for his gun and dies.
Medium pver starts complaining on trade and posts a leaving thread on the forums.
I think KK needs a company trip to russia, where they have this golden rule:
Why fix it if it's not broken?
People underestimate the amount of work the current ideas for ballancing will be, not to mention the THOROUGH testing of them.
Good pvper immediately lands his first 4 shots, the medium pvper gets drugflash and the reticle of his gun closes slower. Good pver now swings by mdium pver but keeps his mous over the target, next shots land.
The mdium pvper can now no longer shoot back as he's confused by the flash, he lost the tc needed for his gun and dies.
Medium pver starts complaining on trade and posts a leaving thread on the forums.
I think KK needs a company trip to russia, where they have this golden rule:
Why fix it if it's not broken?
People underestimate the amount of work the current ideas for ballancing will be, not to mention the THOROUGH testing of them.
=] as i siad anything that makes a item un-usuable is a nono. however i would like to see a split second random flash with full head damage... it would scare the crap out of most players
How offensive and rude, Giga. I would have thought that any sort of prolonged social contact would have taught you to watch your words and blunt your tongue.
Anyways, what I meant for my idea of S.I. from head damage was, if you lose 50% of your total health, then you can have a maximum of 10% SI. That comes out to, what, 1% S.I. from each 5% of your health you lose from head damage.
Not crippling, but definitely very disavantageous.
Also, my stating that many people don't only carry equipment that require that strain the player's ability to use (from requirements), was that even if one does take S.I. from getting hit, it by no means completely disarms them.
After all, a lot of pvping Gentanks carry along the Speedgun Cannon or a TT lasercannon, right? And pvping riflers a Tsunami Rifle, right?
The reason I like the S.I. idea for head damage is because many people already drug up to fight, and the visual impairment haze would probably make the comedown from the drug wearing off mid-fight worse.
Subskill impairment *might* be a little tricky to pull off and balance, but I concede that it would confer the ability for KK's tweaking to be much more precise. After all, would -10 weaponskill and -10 weaponlore for each 5% health you lost from getting hit in the head be equivalent to 1% S.I. per 5% head damage? KK would have to code a lot more, because you have to figure in pistol, rifle, melee, heavy, and psi into these calculations. Coding in the S.I. hits would make things easier for KK, I would think. If I'm at 10% SI at 50% HP then i might as aswell lie down and die right then. Why not just double the dmg of head shots then?
Bugs Gunny
25-04-06, 13:12
I even think the whole nerfed runspeed when legs are shot out is too much of an advantage to good pvpers.
Just remove the hitboxes and turn them into one hitbox, it'll solve the entire locational non locational issue too.
I even think the whole nerfed runspeed when legs are shot out is too much of an advantage to good pvpers.
I think it's an advantage to bad pvpers who can't aim at the head. IMO there should be only one good place to aim.
Bugs Gunny
25-04-06, 13:30
The balls?
I think, many people miss out a small detail in the matter. You only consider what happens when two people are there, ready and set up to fight it out.
In this situation, the given examples work quite well. But, unknown to some, NC is not Quake, we're not always in some PvP event. Not everybody in the game always is your enemy. And not everybody wants to run around and shoot at every player he sees.
I quite often go the "mind my own business" way in the game, if somebody attacks me, i decide out of the situation if i fight back or escape the stealthtool way.
When greeting somebody, you don't strafe, jump and duck, even a beginner can hit you easily. And with the suggested drawbacks, first shot will be even more essential than it is right now. Being the first to shoot would become absolutely critical, even for top grade PvP players. This would not be an anarchic and chaotic world any more, it'd simply be a huge deathmatch where everybody shoots at everybody else (except good friends) the moment they see each other.
I don't think that the game should go this way.
I doubt they are gonna do HUGE effects, just small knockbacks etc
Bugs Gunny
25-04-06, 14:12
knockbacks... there allready are on some weapons, poison nailguns ftw :-)
knockbacks... there allready are on some weapons, poison nailguns ftw :-)
Hehe... too bad that those weapons only exist in crap versions. I hope that weapon balancing will allow more weapon classes to compete with the best. [I am thinking of rare-quality gatlin weapons, grenade launchers, rocket pistol, etc... ]
Anyways, i guess that according to the plan for the rebalance, i am too early to bring it up. :(
Bugs Gunny
25-04-06, 14:24
If the nailguns get a rare version i'm gonna make a char called "john carpenter" and use it :-)
Sylow...
Some are already considering "good PvPer" and "bad PvPer" be sure when you see the behaviour of some in game that you can read "good player" and "bad player"
for this category of course it is important to shoot first because they do nothing except shooting at everybody, red or not and of their level or not.
For those who see the fight only as an aspect of the game those modifications are more important.
The game is not only designed for those who spend their life before their screen only...
Hit box could be nice if it alow a "lambda pvper" to stop the frenzy of a professional fragger by a simple hit in the legs.
For some, Neocron is nothing more than Quake,
I am quite surprised they don't go to PvP server....
But maybe it is too dangerous...
[...]
for this category of course it is important to shoot first because they do nothing except shooting at everybody, red or not and of their level or not.
For those who see the fight only as an aspect of the game those modifications are more important.
[...]
Hit box could be nice if it alow a "lambda pvper" to stop the frenzy of a professional fragger by a simple hit in the legs.
not considering the fact that leg damage already slows you down:
the exact opposite would happen. the advantage of the first kind of player you describe, who shoots everything and everyone at sight, will get bigger. your "lambda pvper" won't have a chance to fight back, because his legs are already broken when he realises what happens.
Bugs Gunny
25-04-06, 14:50
I resent the insinuation that hardcore pvpers don't roleplay.
If we wanted a pure fragfest we'd all be playing Counterstrike or some other game.
What annoys me is that a lot of you elitist so called roleplayers pretend that pvp is only a minimal part of neocron, kind of like the chocolatevendors in the cities.
Listen buddy, this is a war, a world where i quote "danger is around every corner". How about you put your energy in bringing in ideas for content etc, and leave the pvp ballancing up to the pvers.
Do you think it's a good idea to let the local plumber start soldering on your dual core motherboard when it needs fixing? Get my point?
hmmmm not sure....
If there are some snipers or some droners around, I think it could make the difference.
But the goal is not to kill those prof killers, the goal is to have a more realistic game isn't it?
So my answer is yes, let's have a more realistic game.
If OP wars are boring because you always have the same player winning,
you simply won't have OP wars anymore that's all.
I don't hear often that there is very funny OP wars or the like on Terra, or very tough fight, very long and tricky fight...
But the goal is not to kill those prof killers, the goal is to have a more realistic game isn't it?
no, the goal is to have a balanced game that is fun for everyone.
you really think fights will last longer, or be more fun, if you introduce disadvantages for the guy who's losing anyway?
Good pvper immediately lands his first 4 shots, the medium pvper gets drugflash and the reticle of his gun closes slower. Good pver now swings by mdium pver but keeps his mous over the target, next shots land.
The mdium pvper can now no longer shoot back as he's confused by the flash, he lost the tc needed for his gun and dies.I don't think it would be like that..
I see this scenario:
Good PvPer starts going for the head to black it out and give the flash, medium PvPer meanwhile works on the chest, to chop down GPvPer's weapon damage. MPvPer soon gets a bit of flash, while he has almost blackened GPvPer's chest box. With a little trouble soon GPvPer is putting out less damage, while MPvPer is just running circles hoping to avoid too much more damage. They both now decide to go for each other's legs, GPvPer is at 60% health, MPvPer is at 40% health. From there, the battle goes as battles now do, GPvPer wins on low health, just as he probably would have with the current system.
TC, MST, would be left out of that system, even I think weapons/imps going red is nonono, no matter what your setup.
But whatever, I'm starting to like Tratos' idea more and more, mine is geared towards a slower game than this.
Do you think it's a good idea to let the local plumber start soldering on your dual core motherboard when it needs fixing? Get my point?
We also play, it's not a game of half a dozen PvP experts. Get the point?
I consider myself as no purist in either cathegory. If somebody roleplays, i try to go along, when being shot at, i fire back. (And while not being the greatest of all PvPers, i by now also managed to rack up a few kills in self-defence.)
And still, i am not roaming around and shoot at everybody is see, just to stay alive. When shot upon, i want to be able to shoot back, without being _required_ to be the one to attack first. The proposed changes in this thread spell out "shoot first or die" to me, so i oppose them.
no, the goal is to have a balanced game that is fun for everyone.
you really think fights will last longer, or be more fun, if you introduce disadvantages for the guy who's losing anyway?
/sign
Indeed. "Fun" is the key word. Some people might have forgotten, but most people play a game to have fun. This also is, what might bring people back into the game and help it to survive.
How about you put your energy in bringing in ideas for content etc, and leave the pvp ballancing up to the pvers. Couldn't agree more. While some of the ideas are 'interesting' etc etc, practical ideas are far more useful to KK.
We also play, it's not a game of half a dozen PvP experts. Get the point? Let's take a lesson from RL. We have something called the minimum voting age. While the laws still affect young people, it is thought that they are not able to make sensible decisions
How about you put your energy in bringing in ideas for content etc, and leave the pvp ballancing up to the pvers.
go ballancing PvP on PvP server .....
You see, I can have stupid ideas like you....
Giga, how old are you ?
I doubt any intelligent person would accept any lesson from you.
Couldn't agree more. While some of the ideas are 'interesting' etc etc, practical ideas are far more useful to KK.Not true at all. Fresh views are sometimes exactly what is needed for some things.
And if any of the PvP nib crap is directed towards me... look at my registration date. You think I spent all this time on my trader? :lol:
just my two cents now guys but you seem to be ignoring that the people that don't PVP so much still get affected by PVP.
And that comment about the minimum voting age was probably not meant in a bad way but it can still be seen as you say "leave the PVP balance to the hardcore PVPers and the rest can just shut up"
I am verry much against the whole get SI from damage idea.
Especialy since you get SI from having your body rebuilt and not that it takes damage. I atleast see the SI as the bodys reaction to being disassembled and then reconstructed.
Also so far I have to agree Tratos idea is the one I see as the best one so far. Maybe some small extra effect on the torso but not a big one since it is the easiets place to hit.
Let's take a lesson from RL. We have something called the minimum voting age. While the laws still affect young people, it is thought that they are not able to make sensible decisions
Alas. And the one and only wisdom which counts is, how long you have played NC and that you are a top-ranking PvP player?
Has the thought ever crossed your mind, that the whole project might not be aimed towards making the game perfect for a small elitist group of top-PvP players and ignoring all the rest?
Couldn't it be, that KK actually is interested in keeping the game alive and gaining new customers, instead of shrinking it to the size and taste of a small group of players?
In this case, i could ask, how many years of working and marketing experience can you come up with? Perhaps this should be the criteria to determine, if somebody is allowed to voice an oppinion or not?
I am aware that this is now going off topic, but as long as many good ideas are being flamed down by just pointing out that the poster is not on the game since at least 25 years, this has to be said.
So, without flaming you down or anything, unless you personally know exactly what goals KK has for the game, you also have no way of determining, who is allowed to voice an oppinion and who should not say anything. I can very well imagine that KK is more interested in the oppinion of new players. When only aiming to please the old players, who are already settled and hooked, the playerbase of NC won't grow any more. (And since there's always somebody leaving due to new games, work and family, it will die. ) To survive, KK should be more interested in making the game attractive to new players, hoping that the old players stay, than just trying to keep the old players.
And after this long excursion, back to topic:
The game has to be fun for all players, not only to the seasoned veterans. The proposed hitbox-changes would make it very hard to compete for newer players and would install a shoot-first-to-win mentality in the experienced players.
This would be fun for only a small proportion of the playerbase and would be bad for the game from a strategic point of view.
Bugs Gunny
25-04-06, 15:41
I agree that fresh ideas area needed, but sometimes it's so obvious when people don't pvp at all or jsut keep on dying over and over.
A lot of ideas are so very flawed that it gets sad watching the guy hopelesly trying to defend it.
Ballanced pvp is in the best interest for the pvp noobs, because it gives them more of a fighting chance.
Right now most hardcore pvpers and gankers go for the most advanced and best specced killing machines anyway.
When pvp is ballanced that "edge" will be taken away from them.
A lot of ideas are so very flawed that it gets sad watching the guy hopelesly trying to defend it.
And you are right by critisizing them. But the way to do that is not by telling the person that he's a noob, since his registration date is too fresh. Rather, point of the flaws of the suggestion. A veteran like you should know them quite well, i am very positive that you can point them out without requiring to use the "longer here than you" statement.
Ballanced pvp is in the best interest for the pvp noobs, because it gives them more of a fighting chance.
Right now most hardcore pvpers and gankers go for the most advanced and best specced killing machines anyway.
When pvp is ballanced that "edge" will be taken away from them.
There always will be some more or less "optimal" builds and people will gravitate towards them. It's not an NC-specific thing, you can observe that on any game on the market.
Still you are right, balancing is good for all players. My point is not, that it should not be done. I like a good deal of the new ideas in the profession threads, i am looking forward for the things to come, hoping to see a bigger variety of people in combat again.
But while the veterans sure know a lot of things about the game, i also more than once noticed that a great new idea was torn down by some people without further thought, because "things always were like that in NC".
(It can very well be that i miss some knowledge and thus don't know why the idea was actually bad. In that case, it would have been nice to know why it was a bad idea, instead of getting told that the poster is not playing for several years yet.)
Both sides have to have an open mind. I know that i'm a youngster here, i know that not all i say is perfectly matched yet. Most youngsters, me included, respect the fact that the veterans are aware of things we are missing. As long as being told in a decent way, backed up with facts, we are more than ready to accept it. But only stating that younger players have no idea and thus should shut up is not helpful, it only creates an atmosphere of hostility and helps no side.
Bugs Gunny
25-04-06, 16:04
I like your reply, you have potential young padawan :-)
The thing with the "vets" is that they've seen so many good ideas in the past, that were never used by KK.
What scares a lot of us is that it's the same people who made the gam unballanced that are now in a team to totaly redo the whole pvp thing.
The problems with pvp are:
1v1 there are some classes that are better to use.
In groupcombat a ppu gives different amounts of protection and benefits to different classes, hence the amazing amount of monks at opfights.
Vehicles are underused.
Opwars are flawed because of the "barreling the ug" tactic.
Parashock removes all skill from pvp, yet KK insists on its existance.
Locational dammage and the hitboxes was known forever and became a problem once the heal started acting like it was one hitbox. So instead of messing with the heals and giving us a "realy broken" hitbox system, KK should have turned the whole thing into one hitbox.
etc.....
I think KK should let Dirus work something out by himself, instead of forcing the opinions of tradeskilling KK employees on him.
Let him work it out, put it on a testserver and then let's work from there.
He's the one that fixed the stuff the other guys broke.
There was another KK employee who wanted to tackle the ppu problem once, but soon after he was never heard from again. Maybe the monk lobyists made him sleep with the fish.....
panto ur sig is to big
back on track like... if i lose a single SI point then im fucked and cant use anything because my armour comes off meaning my implants come out meaning my other implants come out n i am nurfed to hell n back
I can shoot my gun with 5% si, coz im to lazy to lom my 7 Overcap points from TC, and Exe is 113, hmmm wait, errr no i cant changed my setup, if i poped a Serum +3 dex drug i could
-edit
Yea it seams big, But its still 6 lines of text, so i dont THINK there is any rules i am breaking
I would never have trusted myself to balance the game as a noob. To make decent suggestions, you have to know a lot about the game mechanics, or you won't be able to work out all the consequences of your ideas. However, there is no harm at all in offering your opinion on the things you do understand. The least you could do, is try to consider both the good and bad parts of your idea instead of something like this:
"OMFG when you get headshots, their head's should explode and and and they should die instantly with lots of blood!!!!111"
or like this
"When you shoot someone below their left rib, it should take off 5 TC, and give the target 2.5 melee combat, while doubling their mana pool and halving their stamina"
since we have no authority here that says whos opinion is valuable and whos is not, lets just drop this topic. let everyone say what he has to say and Dirus will sort it out later.
I'm just trying to get people to improve the quality of the ideas that they are putting forward, and trying to get them to think their ideas through, and also to say why they think they are good ideas
I can shoot my gun with 5% si, coz im to lazy to lom my 7 Overcap points from TC, and Exe is 113, hmmm wait, errr no i cant changed my setup, if i poped a Serum +3 dex drug i could
It certainly would be possible to adjust your setup to compensate for the SI. But while being possible, would it also be enjoyable? Just as an example, there are weapons which can only be used by creating a sensible combination of implants and armour. Give the character just a small ammount of SI and those pieces of equipment suddenly would be unuseable. And since requirements are so high, even 1% of SI would be hard to compensate for.
These highest quality weapons thus would probably find a place in a locker, never to be used again, just because the risk to gain SI in combat and making it unuseable would be too high.
So, i would say:
feasible: yes.
logical: in some way, yes.
fun: no.
And thus: not good for the game. Please, no SI due to incomming damage.
Leg Shots
This would mean no knackered legs so people wouldnt be slowed down removing the para-esque nature of the current system and create a reasonably fair system across all classes and play styles making booster management a more crucial thing during PvP.
Due to the 'current' way the game mechanics handle Run Speed this would be a VERY VERY bad idea. I have found it is only possible to hit characters properly once I have knackered their legs (and even then they are not exactly slow). Otherwise it would be practically impossible to hit anyone due to the server not being able to keep up with the INSANE run speed most of you seem to have!
Another thing is, personally I always have stamina boosters in my quickbelt (x4) and is no problem to re-stock on Stamina - it really does not take a great deal of effort or management.
we cant say your opinion isnt valid but we can say ur idea sucks... cant remember who i was answering but you will know when u read it
Due to the 'current' way the game mechanics handle Run Speed this would be a VERY VERY bad idea. I have found it is only possible to hit characters properly once I have knackered their legs (and even then they are not exactly slow). Otherwise it would be practically impossible to hit anyone due to the server not being able to keep up with the INSANE run speed most of you seem to have!
Another thing is, personally I always have stamina boosters in my quickbelt (x4) and is no problem to re-stock on Stamina - it really does not take a great deal of effort or management. Your saying that shooting people in the legs should be a requirement? I just think it's stupid how there's any big advantage for shooting anything but the head. If legs shots making you slow is going to remain ingame, the hitbox should be smaller for them.
EDIT: actually, i take that back. But the effects of hitting other body parts should only last a short time, and should not be very big
Bugs Gunny
26-04-06, 10:59
Due to the 'current' way the game mechanics handle Run Speed this would be a VERY VERY bad idea. I have found it is only possible to hit characters properly once I have knackered their legs (and even then they are not exactly slow). Otherwise it would be practically impossible to hit anyone due to the server not being able to keep up with the INSANE run speed most of you seem to have!
Funny how you have problems hitting people. Most people i know, including new players have no problem at all hitting people.
Maybe you should spend a few days practicing your aim on dragonflies and the flying mechbeetles in the J zones.
Just the fact that YOU can't hit people shouldn't mean the rules have to be adjusted, making it easier for one person to hit people.
Due to the 'current' way the game mechanics handle Run Speed this would be a VERY VERY bad idea. I have found it is only possible to hit characters properly once I have knackered their legs (and even then they are not exactly slow). Otherwise it would be practically impossible to hit anyone due to the server not being able to keep up with the INSANE run speed most of you same to have
tbh i think you need to get better at aiming then
cos its a good thing that you can hurt the legs of the char you are attacking but if you get better then you will not have to get the legs befor you start attacking everthing else
theres an old gaming acronym - K.I.S.S.
Keep It Simple Stupid!
make it 1 hitbox, the game will be better for it, it will allow better damage scailing, heal balancing, medikit balancing, runspeed balancing and will help PvE, as mobs always seem to hit the legs, it will also stop falling from heights totally screwing you over.
If we over complicate things the game will suffer, the more variables you have the more chance of error and overpowered things can be.
Already i can see the slasher, libby and the speed gat being weapons of choice, as they fire so fast all your area's will be screwed before the fight has really begun, meaning that there really is no fight at all, just a slaughter.
1 hitbox please... i know its not really RP, but it will make things better.
Bugs Gunny
26-04-06, 13:23
/ signed
theres an old gaming acronym - K.I.S.S.
Keep It Simple Stupid!
make it 1 hitbox, the game will be better for it, it will allow better damage scailing, heal balancing, medikit balancing, runspeed balancing and will help PvE, as mobs always seem to hit the legs, it will also stop falling from heights totally screwing you over.
If we over complicate things the game will suffer, the more variables you have the more chance of error and overpowered things can be.
Already i can see the slasher, libby and the speed gat being weapons of choice, as they fire so fast all your area's will be screwed before the fight has really begun, meaning that there really is no fight at all, just a slaughter.
1 hitbox please... i know its not really RP, but it will make things better. Well that's half the skill factor of PvP gone. I agree that in some cases, making things simpler is the best thing to do, but this is not one of them. I would rather have inbalance and keep the advantage of being able to get all headshots. I think that the torso hitbox should be extended down to the knees and up to the neck, and should produce no effects of getting hit. Otherwise PvP is gonna be weird with all the combined effects of getting hit in different places, and it doesn't really matter where the opponent hits you, because it's going to produce some negative affect on you.
I agree with Giga on this one.
Can't say anything he hasn't said already.
Funny how you have problems hitting people. Most people i know, including new players have no problem at all hitting people.
Maybe you should spend a few days practicing your aim on dragonflies and the flying mechbeetles in the J zones.
Just the fact that YOU can't hit people shouldn't mean the rules have to be adjusted, making it easier for one person to hit people.
I can hit mobs fine; flies, bats, vultures sometimes a bit of a pain at range.
Its players who are travelling at warp speed I'm talking about, thats all. The weapons need to be fixed like Healing Light with no location damage.
I think it should remain the same:
legs reduce runs speed, head for more damage and body for normal damage.
Over complicate things and it will go tits up.
It won't definately be cocking things up, if time is taken carefully and ideas are totally thought through and tested properly then things can be a bit more fun.
i still dont get why we dont get a bonus for blasting sumbodys face...
i think a person who can constantly hit accuratly in sumbodys face... being the smallest target. should get more advnatage than sumbody nuking ur legs then blasing u when u cant move
theres an old gaming acronym - K.I.S.S.
Keep It Simple Stupid!
make it 1 hitbox, the game will be better for it, it will allow better damage scailing, heal balancing, medikit balancing, runspeed balancing and will help PvE, as mobs always seem to hit the legs, it will also stop falling from heights totally screwing you over.
If we over complicate things the game will suffer, the more variables you have the more chance of error and overpowered things can be.
Already i can see the slasher, libby and the speed gat being weapons of choice, as they fire so fast all your area's will be screwed before the fight has really begun, meaning that there really is no fight at all, just a slaughter.
1 hitbox please... i know its not really RP, but it will make things better.
Well, then the next step, after that is to select the one hit box with your mouse, and press one button for automatic aiming and fire, you just do the running to be sure your in fron of your target... Well, herm... Welcome to WoW... herm... :p
Archa you cheaky bitch :p
i dont find running around looking at ppls feet the definition of "skill" its basically giving everyone parashock, "well i'll slow you down so i can hit you easier" id rather this ability and parashock to be removed.
If you want to "concuss" or "hamstring" someone, why not have it as an ammo type like the spirit mod was, i dunno, 1 shot clip that fits into ballistic weapons only that causes drugs flash/slowed movement/movement randomness (as per the choice of your round) that does one of these 3 things.
the current 3 hitbox system has given enough headaches as it is, keeping it in and adding effects to each location is asking for trouble, if you think zonewhoring is bad this is so much worse.
Seriously look at all the past changes that have happend and how certian things became worse, or became overpowered or what not due to the complication (hacknet anyone??) keeping it to 1 hitbox will mean that we have less issues to sort out and will mean that the pesky PPU wont be able to heal 40bajillion HPs in one tick.
Someone who goes only for the head is going to kill someone faster than someone going for the legs and then the head
Someone who goes only for the head is going to kill someone faster than someone going for the legs and then the head
Assuming they can aim -
Assuming they can aim - which is why the slowness caused by shooting the legs, should only be tempoary.
which is why the slowness caused by shooting the legs, should only be tempoary.
How temporary? and to what degree? and should there be an anti exploitation effect, so that someone that just continually drills your legs only gets the effect every so often or at a % chance?
this gives me nightmares of parashock ya know *runs of crying*
Bugs Gunny
27-04-06, 14:28
I aim for the ballz.
Hey, if i can't win, then at least they ain't getting any that night :angel:
Synchronize
27-04-06, 15:32
Actually if I'm not wrong (after KK correcting the damage bug)
- Head do more damage
- Torso do standard damage
- Leg do standard damage but slow Player.
So hitting in the head kill someone faster than anywhere if you always hit.
Making other Penalty may be difficult, because since nobody speak about, How this penalty will be heal ?
(I will take medikit, but Heal spell same effect)
The SL reduction healing with a Medikit ?(and how the engine will know that the SL lost was SL for "teleportation"/Death or hit SL ?)
And for a lot of player losing SL will make them quite embarrassing because they will loose a lot's of IMP/Armor/Weapon capability
Reduce stamina, but so Medikit will be use has a booster ? and it's the same has slowing player.
Reduce carrying : it's the same has slowing player.
Reduce Skills : It will make many players loosing Weapon capability and make the first who shoot the winner too often
The Psy Pool : 1th it will be pain in the Ass to implement because that make lot's of code.
2th that make not lot's of difference except for low spell caster because APU/PPU eat so much booster than 3-4 more is a joke
And How the healing will work on that ? like a booster :D nice for the PPU
The only suggestion i find playable (but not easy to implement because of the code it need) is to have a malus on the items caracteristics (Frequence, handling, damage, range) Because nobody will loose a lots (you will always shoot, cast etc.) But you will have a little malus with you're weapon/drone/spell
And the Healing (spell or medikit) will heal also this malus (faster)
My own opinion : The easy the best
lower Leg damage (head more damage, torso normal damage, leg less damage) and let the actual slow malus.
So (good) PvP will have the choice :
- making lots of damage on a fast moving target
- making less damage but reducing the speed of the target.
And not so good PvP will make average damage.
Bugs Gunny
27-04-06, 16:04
Hehehehe, these ideas get funnier every day.
As if you realy have the choice of shooting only the head to go for "max dammage" or you choose "medium dammage but the negatives".
Listen, unless it's a very good pvper against a total noob, this won't ever happen. When you're fighting a skilled person you're allready glad that you find something that crosses your reticle that you can shoot at. Very often it's all 3 areas of the body that get hit.
All those negative results and impairment, limited aiming freq etc ideas are only going to result in the good pvpers killing the not so good ones even faster. Good pvpers can fight with uncapped weapons, i'd like to see a not so good pvper do well with a gun whose aiming he doesn't cap.
The first patch isn't even on the testserver and people are allready dreaming of all the mad results that shooting different areas of the body have.
Let's try by getting all the weapons tl ballanced first, then getting rid of the annoying dammage done is lower because target is at low health weapons.
Be it by overflowing that dammage into other boxes or by turning it into one box. If KK can ballance that out allready they'll have done more for pvp ballance than they have in the last 4 years.
Synchronize
27-04-06, 16:17
The first patch isn't even on the testserver and people are allready dreaming of all the mad results that shooting different areas of the body have.
You are groutchy today Gunny :p
I never said i want it or i like it, I just said that for me it's the only new idear "playable" in all this thread
My own opinion is close to you're idear :
having the actual system debug and make damage on the leg reduce to compensate of the malus you take by being hitting in the leg.
For myself, i only try to hit specific target place when i was snipping (and i stop snipping because of the actual engine range)
How temporary? and to what degree? and should there be an anti exploitation effect, so that someone that just continually drills your legs only gets the effect every so often or at a % chance?
this gives me nightmares of parashock ya know *runs of crying* It means that if they stop shooting at the legs, the effect goes away, where as currently it will stay until you've healed up and they can choose to start shooting the head (which is easier to hit because of the slowness).
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