View Full Version : The Balancing Project: Some information ...
I’d like to generally address several questions and topics that have appeared in various discussions.
... concerning: Testserver
Of course you’d like to test the changes proposed in the discussed topics to get an idea of the progress and to see how those changes work out. However, as we are a small team, we simply can’t implement proposed features that only have a small chance to be added to the game from the start. That’s why we are trying to define the theoretical concept for the balancing project as accurately as possible. This will help us to keep the invested time as low as possible, and to be actually able to quickly implement the finalized definitions.
An additional aspect is the interdependency of Neocron’s mechanisms – only very few changes are meaningful when you look at them separately. Therefore the testserver only makes sense when the majority of the changes have been implemented, when you are able to evaluate the whole (!) picture.
There are a few more open topics that have to be examined first – therefore I’d like to ask you: Please focus on the proposed discussion topics and contribute constructively and with motivation – we will do what we can to get to the public testing phase as quickly as possible.
... concerning: Retail Patches
The maintenance of Neocron in its current state has become a lot more difficult because of the balancing project. The implementation of some changes has begun a long time ago. Therefore it is unavoidable that required bugfixes, while not being impossible, take a highly increased amount of time to go „live“. One reason for this is the greatly increased testing requirements resulting from the current „parallel development“ – we hope for your understanding.
... concerning: Discussion Culture
We will begin to communicate the already decided changes to improve the framework for current and future discussions. The first publication covers the skill system and the class orientations – the definitions in that document are considered a result of our concepts and your comments/ideas/concerns. So you will still have time to discuss those changes’ ramifications – it will however be the last discussion phase for those topics.
Once we enter the public testserver phase, a complete ruleset covering all applied changes will be available, which will allow a detailed look into the new and changed mechanisms in Neocron. Based on this ruleset we will discuss the results and perform any required finetuning.
The current topic „Weapons“ is very important to us – and certainly also to you. Therefore we want to keep this discussion going, to get to a detailed and understandable concept. As a reaction to the missing information, we are now publishing the first definition block (skill system and classes) – please let us know if there is more information required to put this topic into perspective missing – we will try to react better and more quickly.
... concerning: Jason ‚Dirus’ Lehmann
As you probably heard, Jason is no longer part of the Neocron team. This loss was not easy to compensate – we had to redistribute a non-trivial task area within the balancing project. However, this does not mean that the balancing project is at risk or less promising. Some reorganization was required to secure the further concept development and implementation – but the results are still based on Jason’s influence and experiences.
We wish Jason good luck and success!
... concerning: „Monk-O-Cron“
To put it very clearly: it is our top priority to re-establish a balance between the four classes. Each class should have its special abilities and be able to access as many aspects of the game as possible. We will try to correct aberrations, identify strengths or create missing strengths – but also balance those strengths through appropriate weaknesses. You are playing an extremely important role in weighing these aspects!
If you underestimate this role or reduce your arguments to simple statements of displeasure, you keep us from using your views as input – which automatically reduces us to our own estimations.
Please approach the proposed (possible !!!) changes in an argumentative way. If you really think you have spotted an imbalance, let the community (and us) know why you see it that way! To be more precise: We do not want the APU to be the uber class – but we also do not want to butcher him into a class devoid of fun that noone wants to play. We want it to be possible to face an APU (or even a PPU-APU team) and have a realistic chance of winning. It is up to you to evaluate our decisions – that is why we are running these discussions!
... concerning: Discussion Culture
We will begin to communicate the already decided changes to improve the framework for current and future discussions. The first publication covers the skill system and the class orientations – the definitions in that document are considered a result of our concepts and your comments/ideas/concerns. So you will still have time to discuss those changes’ ramifications – it will however be the last discussion phase for those topics.
Looking forward to it! :)
Thanks for the update though I have complete faith that some seemed to have lost, I trust KK will work with the community to make things right :)
I trust KK will work with the community to make things right :) Trusting the entire community would be NCs downfall, there are only a few people left here who know enough about the game to contribute in a positive way. I hope KK takes this on board, not neccesarily visibly, but just keep it in the back of your mind as you read through these forums.
Dribble Joy
02-06-06, 18:11
Cheers.
One thing though, I don't know if it's the right place to ask, but getting this from the horse's mouth would be a great help.
Why do you so totally support parashock and it's equivalents within KK? What reasons are there for it's inclusion in PvP when this is a supposedly skill based game?
Regardless, are there any planned changes to it?
Nice, thanks for the update =)
OK, so the balancing project is offically being branded 2.2 then.
Is there still an intention to revamp character models (player, mobs, etc) with 2.2 or not?
Hope to see more stuff soon.
Hell-demon
02-06-06, 18:39
I too would like to see new character models as it would be sexy
@giga191: We are trying carefully to filter all messages on the balancing board - We have also in mind that some people try to push their favorite class to top and this is hard to find out ...
Please make sure that these few people will stay on topic - if you are right you will have the better point of view and finally the better arguments
@CMaster and Hell-Demon: New modells are not part of this "2.2 Package" - sorry
@Dribble Joy: This topic will also be discussed soon ...
@All: Be patient - we have to discuss a lot of things. But when we start cross-discussions no one will get any good results out of it.
Is there still an intention to revamp character models (player, mobs, etc) with 2.2 or not?
At least the player models have been updated since NC1. The 'traditional' mobs have not. The most pressing need for updates lies with the NPCs in faction HQs and public buildings. They're just so ugly and dated now. Then they should look at the mutant group, in particular the aggies.
@giga191: We are trying carefully to filter all messages on the balancing board - We have also in mind that some people try to push their favorite class to top and this is hard to find out ...
I like you, are you the dirus replacement?
lol I do like this thread, tells it like it is, I'm content for now.
lol I do like this thread, tells it like it is, I'm content for now. He's a pro for someone with 20 posts :p
This is gonna go so wrong. I can feel it. :lol:
I'd rather balance slowly, patch by patch. AND THAT ON A WEEKLY BASIS. Not like "Oh, we fucked over TL 3 and TL 10 heals, ah well nvm we're gonna fix it in 4 months. Maybe."
:mad: :mad: :mad:
@Dribble Joy: This topic will also be discussed soon ...
LOL, have you guys been sitting in a cave for the last 10 years? your your eyes shut and your fingers in your ears?
Why would you have to discuss the removal of para, about 99% of the community have wanted it gone since the first 6 months of its introduction, ALOT of people have left because things like this werent removed.
Now its to be "discussed"? ha! nice.... and from this "discussion" I can see we will just get it "toned down" again....
whats the point of anyone going on about it anymore.... KK, the community, doesnt really matter, nothing is ever going to be done.
I agree with Sork, I think balancing should "evolve", not be the big bang, KK do everything as a "big bang" when they do more than small bug fixes, and it almost always goes belly up.
I think they need to think of thier 3 or so major changes, make them, introduce them, and while slowly introducing all the other small changes, tweak the major ones into perfection.
I agree with Sork, I think balancing should "evolve", not be the big bang, KK do everything as a "big bang" when they do more than small bug fixes, and it almost always goes belly up.
. It's going on the test server first, so it's not a huge problem if it explodes :p
ashley watts
03-06-06, 00:42
o_0 im sure i just read they wernt having one
How does KK plan on altering the private eye to make him "Average"?
Removing DB?
Removing Rare Weapons?
Both?
Do too much and they are nerf'd, do too little and they are the same as they are now. Since nano tech was involved you chose to give it to PE's as well as spies, this doesnt sperorate the two it binds them together even tighter. Spies should beable to do things the the private eye will never get to, which should also be the same for other classes.
Dribble Joy
03-06-06, 01:31
I think either there's an issue of lost in translation, or misuse of the correct terms.
The PE is not and probably will not be average in the way you mean. If they were truely average/JoaT they could use rifles, pistols, melee, heavy, apu, ppu and tradeskill to an average degree, all at the same time.
This is not so, PEs simply have a larger range of potential paths to take than the other classes, and rather than being average in them, combine their mix of powers so tat their chosen path is as powerful as that of any class, just in a slightly different way, for example: An HC PE will be as effective as an HC tank, because despite his lower str and not being able to reach the higher weapons - and thus a lower offencive potential - his defensive make-up is higher.
Reasons for removing DB, or excluding PEs from the higher level dex based weapons (not necessarily rares) are down to maintaining equality across solo and team based PvP and maintaining class distinction respectively. They do not necessarily mean a nerf.
lol I do like this thread, tells it like it is, I'm content for now.
This is indeed a good thread, its all so clear now :lol:
Dribble, the problem as i see it is that PE's shouldnt be able to do everything at once, that doesnt make them "average", what would make them average would be if no matter what weapon route you went, that way was equally as strong as any other choice you may have.
Right now pistol and rifle PE's are the only thing feasible, i want the PE to be able to do anything, at say 3/4 the level of the other respective class (except PSI) and only one thing (weapon choice), while having the bonuses of the mini ppu, etc that we have now.
o_0 im sure i just read they wernt having one No. You just read that they want to put in the final thing (as apposed to small changes at a time) onto the test server before it goes retail, so they can iron out any bugs or problems with the new system.
Read more carefully :eek:
to be good in pvp you have to use high end equipment if you take this of pes you make them no longer usefull in pvp i dont claim to know the game that well but i un led at rank 50 and only now at cap can i pvp at all really taking out the db would be fine with me and slash/exe but to take all rares would be bad move imo but im sure that there are older pvp pes that know more about balance and im sure kk would appreciate there imput :)
to be good in pvp you have to use high end equipment if you take this of pes you make them no longer usefull in pvp
there are some players who can use low tl stuff and still kill alot of peeps
to be good in pvp you have to use high end equipment if you take this of pes you make them no longer usefull in pvp i dont claim to know the game that well but i un led at rank 50 and only now at cap can i pvp at all really taking out the db would be fine with me and slash/exe but to take all rares would be bad move imo but im sure that there are older pvp pes that know more about balance and im sure kk would appreciate there imput :) As a PE player myself, i'm not at all worried about no longer using high tl weapons. The weapon dmgs and people's defences are all getting re-done so it won't be much like it is atm.
first thing is str based pes are playable in pvp, tho not as good as dex based ones, but they still can take down their enemies, it's just a lil harder than on other pes.
removing db from pe's tho would lead to everyone playing hitech pistol pes as this spell is needed for any lotech weapon to do some damage (especially tsunami rifle pe's would be extinct if you remove it) against an sd'ed target.
mebbe one could introduce a low tc restriction on db, so the ones that don't need it (like slasher/xbow pes) can't use it, while lotech pes will still be played, so you can keep the pe's diversity in game, which i think is great.
@CMaster and Hell-Demon: New modells are not part of this "2.2 Package" - sorry
Thats fine, I was just asking to see if anything from planfile #5 Was still in. Can I then ask, however what the art department (who we are frequently told "DO NOT CODE") are doing for Evo 2.1? Any chances of some sneak peaks, or at least knowing whats going on? The lack of any new models does make me sad.
removing db from pe's tho would lead to everyone playing hitech pistol pes as this spell is needed for any lotech weapon to do some damage (especially tsunami rifle pe's would be extinct if you remove it) against an sd'ed target.
mebbe one could introduce a low tc restriction on db, so the ones that don't need it (like slasher/xbow pes) can't use it, while lotech pes will still be played, so you can keep the pe's diversity in game, which i think is great.
Not at all. We sort out damage rates, and the tradeoff you make between damage outpout and defence, and all will be fine. In fact, this is easier to do without damage boost, as the moment making lowtechers viable w/o DB would make them overpowered when they did. The removal of DB from combat classes (and possibly PvP entirley) makes the task of balancing far, far easier.
yuuki yes i see you are right about lowtech pes and i stand corrected maybe not lose the db then yes maybe if you had to have below a certain ht lvl to be able to use it if it was above that lvl you would no longer be able to db that sounds great :D but appart from that i think the pe is quite balanced because you have to chip str to use high mc or hc weapons so there for lose the dex so you chose the way you wanna go and that your choice pes are just like a mini version of all classes in 1 and i think that is good but once you chose a wep that is only thing you will able to master as a pe :) and that part of pe is a good thing :) and the 1 thing peeps have over looked with balancing the pe is they could lower the pe resists there for making them easier to kill but keeping all there equipment :)
Not at all. We sort out damage rates, and the tradeoff you make between damage outpout and defence, and all will be fine. In fact, this is easier to do without damage boost, as the moment making lowtechers viable w/o DB would make them overpowered when they did. The removal of DB from combat classes (and possibly PvP entirley) makes the task of balancing far, far easier.
well, str pe's will never be able to use any weapon that does enuff damage on it's own as it is really hard to reach the str for ANY rare mc weapon and only possible with a drop drug to reach a rare hc weapon. so you are stuck with these lo lvl items.
unless damage by all weapons from tl 75 on is adjusted to be much more in the same league i don't see any chance of str pes being playable after the patch. :(
for dex this may not be an issue as there are enuff rare lowtech weapons readily available for pes
Why do we play this game?
Excitement
Challenge
POWER!
KK other than earning a living, why do all of you continue to program and design this world?
To much whimpering about Parashock, one class being better than the other.... dam sounds like the real world.
Any introduction I agree should be incremental in small steps, That is the number one comment I saw so far.
I would like the communities to consider supporting new weapon and new implant innovations first to adapt improper balances that exist.
Messing with skills and the existing available options always seems to lessen the fun I have with what I have earned and worked for. Please don't continue this method. I would rather see a new introduction and deletions of the more useless rare items.
It is time to stop the Carebear's (as coined by another post) from tearing apart all the efforts others have earned for an easier ride through the park.
Let us work on new fights, special weps for specific purposes to battle specific new mobs.
Let us work to offer powerful additions to our characters as we go higher and higher in lvls and use those advantages to enter new domains to fight earning exclusive privileges for working a character for such a long time. Leaving others to work their way up.
World jumping, planet jumping to fight new developed game enemies.
Allow us to become guest clan associates offering us privileges as a guest of a clan to make purchases after earning SL, Symp and completing a very challenging epic. Also allowing us to fight with them as a mercenary after we have completed an additional epic.
Why can't the highest lvl pure hacker hack into an op on another planet and set a nuke and destroy that op making the owners pay for rebuilding (must be clan affiliated and it would take multiple hackers to get the pure to the final lvl with tank/PSI support to fight off game enemies that block a coordinated location effort.
Sure this would cause more wars and battles to secure ops offering the innovation to introduce the purchase of in game mercenaries to guard the ops and robots to fight along side high lvl mercenaries as companions. Hell we could do quests to get the parts to build the bots and have some real bad metal to mess with the Aggressive PSI’s.
I can go on, the game needs its CREATIVITY back not balance adjustments that make it an X-Box version on-line.
Please KK ask your staff to dream, and those dreams will offer all our imaginations the excitement we play for. It is what built what we have here today, allot of hard work and designing dreams.
Don’t keep getting caught in the same circle. How many times is your talented staff going to RE-CREATE NC? Please evolve it, really evolve it.
No matter what you do Ill continue to play. Until I see that Microsoft is interested in buying the company.
If I have offended anyone (Except the whiners and carebears) with what I said I apologize. I know you all work hard to please the masses but, at times the masses have been known to be wrong.
Accept constructive ideas, develop the future so I can play till I die. Let God sort out the whiners and carebears and I will help him recycle the carcasses to something more useful when I get there :)
Respectfully,
JohnGalt
wtf ^^
Seriously, what's the point of making new weapons when you can just improve the current useless ones :confused: Especially since KK has limited resources. Throwing loads and loads of content at the game isn't going to fix the core problems that people quit over
Burninghead
05-06-06, 14:46
Yeah my first post.
I'm fairly new to the game so I won't comment on the topic.
Just posting to point a small typo in your sig Mr Doe.
Dirk "John Doe" Wilhelmy
Neocron Development Team
REAKKTOR.COM
A division of 10tacel Studios AG
:angel:
Dribble Joy
05-06-06, 15:06
well, str pe's will never be able to use any weapon that does enuff damage on it's own as it is really hard to reach the str for ANY rare mc weapon and only possible with a drop drug to reach a rare hc weapon. so you are stuck with these lo lvl items.
unless damage by all weapons from tl 75 on is adjusted to be much more in the same league i don't see any chance of str pes being playable after the patch. :(
for dex this may not be an issue as there are enuff rare lowtech weapons readily available for pes
Who's to say that the str based imps and armour availiable to PEs won't make them viable? Plus all the changes to the skill system and weapon tls. You can't base anything on what we have ingame right now.
Reason the MC and HC weapon 'need' DB is because the skill system means that you reach the damage/freq cap to early, and with little skilling. If the caps are hiked up significantly, then skilling appropriate to the defence/offence balance of the charater is possible.
The same is true of the dex weapons. Previously it was possible to cap a low tech weapon, but with the same defences you would come nowhere near capping a high tech like a judge, and overall the offence of the two setups would be near identical.
The problem now is that with equal defences, you can cap a judge with even less skilling than it took to cap a low tech previously. You allready cap the low tech, but the high tech does so much more damage for the same defences.
If the caps are extended, then for the same offencive skilling, you will get the same offencive power.
I think it may be you who sounds somewhat short sighted and confused, people quit exactly because of content stagnation. They cry about being board, they cry about having to work a character so long to get a weapon/spell then see it altered, they beg for everything to be changed, Mostly AFTER they have been capped.
When is KK going to put his foot down and stop servicing the whiners!
Many times a new foundation must be considered in order to correct existing issues because re-using and existing foundation continues to compound the same problems over and over.
Whiners come and go no matter what. Is this a business or a privet pet project?
A few friends of mine have left to play other games like this exactly because of CONTENT. Play for two years or more and then just throw it all away because of the lack of continuous character development and useful activities to utilize that development/progression on.
I do not want a dead end to all my efforts, I would like a long-term philisophy to the future of this game world. I kno others that would agree with me.
Once you cap you do what? PvP, big deal it is a extremely short term satisfaction, you talk bull, walk with your chest out so what.
There are a large percentage of players that do not care about PvP.
Sure, let's screw up the weapon base even more so all the effort is wasted in order to earn them so others can compeat to kill another runner. If you want the competetive power for PvP then develop the same competitive character.
How many useless rares are there 20 , 30 items, more?
Improve the content over the history of a character being developed, so that just as one plays with motivation in the beginning they have that continued motivation for years to come. The only way to do this is to STOP wasting resorces on this so called balencing issue and treat it as a progressive fix as world development continues. We made it this far with the way it is now. What about the future of a characters value.
If all the whining is about PvP then create a new arena that has a modified enviorment that enhances the imbalanced skills of the underdog to enable that character to have equal playing ground.
A test environment with KK on the side live monitoring can adjust skills of test players to find the appropriate BALENCE and then affix them to the new arenas / sectors for those that must have this done.
A pvP registration process can allow the server to recognize competitors and then when they gr to the location the skills can be modified automatically.
Create long-term epic missions and interaction with clans allowing CONTINOUS individual development and have that progress allow a seasoned character to enter new areas that can be expanded upon later.
The original concept of this world has been reached, It is time to evolve the base world to what are we going to do next?
Evolution will bring a different type of player and I really don’t care if the others leave, eventually they will be back getting beat by others that see the new values. Out of all the others that have left we are still here.
JohnGalt
You my friend, are an idiot. There's so much potential content in this game but it's just being wasted due to inbalance. Anyway, you guys have had 3 years of content patches, now it's our turn for some love. Plus people only get bored due to lack of PvP which comes from the lack of good quality pvp that would come from balancing this game properly.
In a way John is right, psychologically the balance changes influence on the market wont change much at all in terms of playerbase. However the only way for this to keep going right is if this balance project is part of a larger project consisting of new and modified content.
In a way John is right, psychologically the balance changes influence on the market wont change much at all in terms of playerbase. However the only way for this to keep going right is if this balance project is part of a larger project consisting of new and modified content. Obviously content is necessary, but we already have enough to work with for now. Having proper balance opens up so many different setups instead of the current viable choices of xbow, exec, slasher, judge, cs, dev, HL, psi attack 2, PoB.
I want the blessed heal reset to what it was. I mean it wasnt majorly overpowered anyway. Other then it could out-heal stuff. I miss blessed hybrid :angel: I know this kinda random..
In a way John is right, psychologically the balance changes influence on the market wont change much at all in terms of player base. However the only way for this to keep going right is if this balance project is part of a larger project consisting of new and modified content.
Balance is not the correct focus, FOCOUS is the point I am making.
As world development occurs it is unavoidable that BALENCED adjustments must be made to accommodate the expanded and new concepts.
WHY would you do ALL this balancing when we haven’t even planned for where we should develop next? If development doesn’t allow other action and PvP is the only way NC is going it will always continue to loose people to other well based story lines.
No one has mentioned the future, mob upgrades are asked for come on what is with the simple pleasers.
All I am asking KK to do is to offer a BIG long term picture of what awesome ideas the design team wants to develop and then form a plan for the next evolution of the game. THEN we look at what appropriate work should be done to balance some of the existing issues.
GIGA you never mentioned any comment on my arena concept for pvp. Why don't you consider that a respectable fix for PvP issues.
There are sectors of ocean in the game map what doesn’t the KK team design a 3 or 4 sector Island that can be GR'ed to and when runners get there all the BALENCE adjustments can be made to that area for all characters and weapons. 4 sectors with a really developed pvp environment should be fine to satisfy all, and the rest of the world can follow a real evolution. Both of us can get what we want and you will get what it seems to me you want, someplace better than NeoFrag and the corrections to skills and weapons that produce the desired result you are looking for.
Even though I am not thrilled with Dome of York at least the team headed into the evolution concept.
I really would like to hear what others think of some of the other ideas I have suggested.
I want to have more fun.
Respectfully,
JohnGalt
Obviously content is necessary, but we already have enough to work with for now. Having proper balance opens up so many different setups instead of the current viable choices of xbow, exec, slasher, judge, cs, dev, HL, psi attack 2, PoB.
We already have enough content to work with now, eh?
So re we going to continue to stagnate the game play to fine tune every detail for all the existing weps and spells for the next 3 years? Oh, I can see this world progressing at a snail's pace.
Development is not a simple job and I am very aware of that, but in this business environment you cannot just keep rebuilding the wheel over and over.
Product development must evolve to gather new players and keep loyal ones.
Who wants a perfectly balanced game anyway, that is not the real world or everyone would shoot themselves.
Evolution will allow additional character and world development presenting NEW characters that can provide all the balance that’s needed. Adjusting the current weapon base would be nice, I think some of the harder earned weps are a bit wimpy even with 5 slots.
If there is anyone that appreciates this great world it is I, and I will fight for this concept till the end. Build a separate balanced zone for PvP in the ocean as an island and do what you need to do there.
Respectfully,
JohnGalt
Who's to say that the str based imps and armour availiable to PEs won't make them viable? Plus all the changes to the skill system and weapon tls. You can't base anything on what we have ingame right now.
Reason the MC and HC weapon 'need' DB is because the skill system means that you reach the damage/freq cap to early, and with little skilling. If the caps are hiked up significantly, then skilling appropriate to the defence/offence balance of the charater is possible.
The same is true of the dex weapons. Previously it was possible to cap a low tech weapon, but with the same defences you would come nowhere near capping a high tech like a judge, and overall the offence of the two setups would be near identical.
The problem now is that with equal defences, you can cap a judge with even less skilling than it took to cap a low tech previously. You allready cap the low tech, but the high tech does so much more damage for the same defences.
If the caps are extended, then for the same offencive skilling, you will get the same offencive power.
ever saw the damage a tsunami rifle (capped) does without db? it's easily outhealed by a tl 10 heal, same is true with terminator or pain easer. that was my point, there are almost no lotech weapons viable for pvp without using damage boost. ofc my defenses as lotech pe are better, but unless you do pvm, where the mobs don't heal it does make a huge difference.
ofc you are right that this all is based on the game as it is atm and may be different when new weapon stats and armors are introduced.
but you have to take into account that hc pe's don't use rare weapons at all and this will most likely be the same after the patch
I want the blessed heal reset to what it was. I mean it wasnt majorly overpowered anyway. Other then it could out-heal stuff. I miss blessed hybrid :angel: I know this kinda random..
After this post, how could they not reset blessed heal to what it was :p
Dribble Joy
06-06-06, 16:00
ever saw the damage a tsunami rifle (capped) does without db? it's easily outhealed by a tl 10 heal, same is true with terminator or pain easer. that was my point, there are almost no lotech weapons viable for pvp without using damage boost.
You missed the point entirely. The PE, termi, TSR and all the other weapons are going to be reajusted (though for the most part their dmg/tl/skilling is about right) as will the skill system. There will be no need for a DB if it's done properly.
As for the tl10 heal, I think you are aware of it's problems.
You missed the point entirely. The PE, termi, TSR and all the other weapons are going to be reajusted (though for the most part their dmg/tl/skilling is about right) as will the skill system. There will be no need for a DB if it's done properly.
aaw you didn't read my post till the end :(
ofc you are right that this all is based on the game as it is atm and may be different when new weapon stats and armors are introduced.
oh and to johns idea with the arena *cough*
pvp should be part of the game, not some kind of minigame you play on some distant island. if it was like that you could remove pvp from the whole world but neofrag, which definately would cost many ppl their thrills when playing :p
I look at this thread and al the PE posts and laugh to myself, this is the same thing ive been on since these "balance" forums have been on.
PEs can do more damage then specialized class and yet they supposed to be all-around, but never really master anything.
A lot of things have to be taken into consideration, and these things are not just "mathematic". Concept wise the PE has to be reviewed.
Concept wise a lot of things HAVE to be reviewed.
Agreed. As mentioned, PE's are supposed to be the all round type class, yet they can use the same weapons a Spy can, but having faster runspeed thanks to being able to get more athletics, and generally needing 1 or 2 less drugs (depending on the setup) than a typical combat Spy. Now think about that, then think about this: Damage Boost. Combine the two, and it's totally rediculous for the amount of damage Private Eyes are supposed to deal out, considering their higher strength/psi/resists/body health is there to compensate.
Damage Boost is one of the things that helps inbalance the game, and when you think about it, makes every battle shorter, which is a BAD thing, when Neocron is supposed to be about PvP, and not instant lame death when coming into contact with certain things like Holy Lightning... I could easily mention Parashock next, but I think everyone has seen me go on about it enough already, maybe next week. ;)
Why do the obvious facts as mentioned above seem to go un-noticed?
Why does the Spies so called agility/runspeed, or more importantly, lack of it, not get a second thought? Spies are supposed to be the most agile class to help counter their crapper resists and body health, yet they're slower than EVERY other class.
Even changing the stats on Spy PA to give a new bonus to agility/athletics would help matters.
funniest thing is that PE's ingame atm, ask spys, not to stealth, yet they stealth, db, use vehicules, and use xbow's..... and then they try to tell you that real spys dont stealth... yet they stealth themselves and they're PE's.
We already have enough content to work with now, eh?
So re we going to continue to stagnate the game play to fine tune every detail for all the existing weps and spells for the next 3 years? Oh, I can see this world progressing at a snail's pace.
Development is not a simple job and I am very aware of that, but in this business environment you cannot just keep rebuilding the wheel over and over.
Product development must evolve to gather new players and keep loyal ones.
Who wants a perfectly balanced game anyway, that is not the real world or everyone would shoot themselves.
Evolution will allow additional character and world development presenting NEW characters that can provide all the balance that’s needed. Adjusting the current weapon base would be nice, I think some of the harder earned weps are a bit wimpy even with 5 slots.
If there is anyone that appreciates this great world it is I, and I will fight for this concept till the end. Build a separate balanced zone for PvP in the ocean as an island and do what you need to do there.
Respectfully,
JohnGalt The last 4 weapons (the HN ion weapons + hurler knuckles), are completely useless due to poor balancing, the tl3 heal hardly works, PEs rule the world, tanks are useless, the game revolves around PPUs, half of logins end up in 50/50 synch, bad inventory, not being to change weapons, not being able to right click or no money/SL, none locational dmg weapons are bugged to hell in pvp so they do no dmg when they hit, tl10 heal is like a holy heal, we're down to a third of our old population after years of content patches, and your telling me that we need more unbalanced useless content instead of fixing these problems?
I'm not even sure your on the right forums here m8 :rolleyes:
Agreed. As mentioned, PE's are supposed to be the all round type class, yet they can use the same weapons a Spy can, but having faster runspeed thanks to being able to get more athletics, and generally needing 1 or 2 less drugs (depending on the setup) than a typical combat Spy. Now think about that, then think about this: Damage Boost. Combine the two, and it's totally rediculous for the amount of damage Private Eyes are supposed to deal out, considering their higher strength/psi/resists/body health is there to compensate.
Damage Boost is one of the things that helps inbalance the game, and when you think about it, makes every battle shorter, which is a BAD thing, when Neocron is supposed to be about PvP, and not instant lame death when coming into contact with certain things like Holy Lightning... I could easily mention Parashock next, but I think everyone has seen me go on about it enough already, maybe next week. ;)
Why do the obvious facts as mentioned above seem to go un-noticed?
Why does the Spies so called agility/runspeed, or more importantly, lack of it, not get a second thought? Spies are supposed to be the most agile class to help counter their crapper resists and body health, yet they're slower than EVERY other class.
Even changing the stats on Spy PA to give a new bonus to agility/athletics would help matters.
spys are not the slowest class, tanks are by far.
Other than that all the remaining 3 classes can be comprable runspeed wise depending on setup/drugs.
Also shorter fights are not always bad, due to ppus people live too long at ops. Though 1v1 I agree with you.
Other than that I agree with your post
I could easily mention Parashock next, but I think everyone has seen me go on about it enough already, maybe next week. ;)
one can't mention often enough how lame parashock is.
one can't mention often enough how lame parashock is.
Tasers are fine with me, the concept of them makes sense. parashock spells. gay.
The last 4 weapons (the HN ion weapons + hurler knuckles), are completely useless due to poor balancing, the tl3 heal hardly works, PEs rule the world, tanks are useless, the game revolves around PPUs, half of logins end up in 50/50 synch, bad inventory, not being to change weapons, not being able to right click or no money/SL, none locational dmg weapons are bugged to hell in pvp so they do no dmg when they hit, tl10 heal is like a holy heal, we're down to a third of our old population after years of content patches, and your telling me that we need more unbalanced useless content instead of fixing these problems?
I'm not even sure your on the right forums here m8 :rolleyes:
Here Here! I totally agree.
I do personally believe that balance could have been pushed back for bugs and syncs, but as long as they both get worked on, much better than new useless content.
After balance/ bugs, things like unique colours/ icons for most of the items ingame should be worked on i think along side armour actually showing on the player - all looking different too.
New content isnt needed as much as a new and unique look for every item already in.
Obviously there things that look unique dont need new icons... and things like different ammo types just need to be represented by "dying" the icon the respective colour..
Take the stealth away from the PE and Shelter as the stealth can be considered to be a specialist tool and a monks spell to be to "complicated" for a PE to cast
Spy's need to be more like the current PE's and PE's to be more like the current spy's
Or something like that :lol:
Take the stealth away from the PE and Shelter as the stealth can be considered to be a specialist tool and a monks spell to be to "complicated" for a PE to cast
Spy's need to be more like the current PE's and PE's to be more like the current spy's
what a random comment....
spys are not the slowest class, tanks are by far.Monk - able to have uber runspeed while being able to drive a reveler at the same time, no drugs.
Private Eye - usually ends up faster than a Spy thanks to having more athletics with the same-ish amount of agility (could use drugs, but some don't)
Tank - shit load of agility, shit load of athletics, no need for drugs. Tanks appear to be a tad slow on your screen when wielding a heavy weapon, but on everyone elses screen they're usually very fast. I won't even go on about the runspeed of melee tanks.
Spy - minimal athletics and minimal agility if you plan to cap your high level weapons, depending on the setup, 2 drugs are a requirement to boost your runspeed so it's nearly as good as everyone else.
Edit: Might as well ask this... which class do you think is the worst off out of them all for runspeed? If you say tank you really are a buffoon. :p
tanks are slowest due to the thing they dont use drugs. Spies use redflash at least the spies i know and with the drugs they are faster then any tank.
i play a tank a lot and its really fucking impossible to chase down ANYTHING at all even as u mention it spies and thats with the weapon not out
erm, why don't you take redflash yourself then? :lol:
Tanks cant stealth away with drug flash
tanks are slowest due to the thing they dont use drugs.Tanks could use drugs if they want, but most don't, as they're not required. You're not seeing the main point I was making in my last post. Spies are required to be screwed over with unneccessary drugflash so they can have similair (but nowhere near the same) runspeed to everyone else. Every other class can have high damage output with excellent runspeed, without the use of drugs.
I have a beloved Pistol Spy, PC and TC skills are as scimped as possible so I can get the most agility while capping my artifact TL113 weapon, the same sort of thing with my constitution and athletics. The runspeed is absolutely crap without drugs, and with drugs, the runspeed increase still gets nowhere near similair to the runspeed of a Monk, Tank, or Private Eye.
By definition, Spies are supposed to be the most agile class. They're half as agile as everyone else. As mentioned a second ago, they have to screw themselves over using drugs to keep up with everyone else. I've yet to see a properly setup drugless Tank be unable to outrun a Spy - even I used to have a HC Tank with WoC Str 1 exp, so I know how fast they are (wouldn't comment otherwise).
Tanks cant stealth away with drug flash1 drug usually gives a minimal amount of drugflash, and since they can't stealth they won't get drugflash that way either. Compare that to a Spy who usually has to take 3 drugs (2 for runspeed, 1 for shelter), and stealth as well.
Ios - Terra
12-06-06, 07:24
[ edited - I don't think so ]
None of this shit really has importance if the underlying problems arent fixed.
FIX THE BUGS
Its like a house build on bad foundation, but you guys put the effort on the paint instead of the real thing.
FIX THE GODAMN BUGS
None of this shit really has importance if the underlying problems arent fixed.
FIX THE BUGS
Its like a house build on bad foundation, but you guys put the effort on the paint instead of the real thing.
FIX THE GODAMN BUGS THEY ARE FIXING THE GODAMN BUGS YOU NOOB, THAT'S WHY IT'S TAKING SO GODAMN LONG, AND PLEASE NO MORE CAPS.
AND PLEASE NO MORE CAPS.
:lol:
It's like "oh shit he's talking in caps, we better listen to him!!!!!!11" :rolleyes:
with tanks having 0 psi, will things such as psi drugs/imps put in while on drugs still effect them? (not really a very important thing.. was just wondering)
These discussions have been going on for over 3 months now, how long is this whole thing going to take before we get some changes made?
Balance involves identifying what is currently out of balance, and putting steps in place to rectify this.
So far as far as I can tell the main issues are not being addressed. For me personally these are:
1. - Run Speed - causes the player to 'teleport' if it is high enough
2. - Parashock - fustrates the player and removes all skill in fighting
3. - Weapon Bugs - makes many weapons made unusable
4. - PE's not being a Jack of all Trades - current item/implant setups allow too much freedom to over-specialise
Personaly, i think that the Ionic Shotgun Weapons should have there damage increased, i think this as because campared to the other weapons around there Tech Level range they do no damage what so ever, also maby new ammo mods for these weapons as there special in my opinion :) Thanks :)
Example #3: Ionic Shotgun Pistol
This weapon has been change: The Ionic Shotgun Pistol is – according to its model – a double-shot weapon with 2 bullets. As already mentioned, this is compensated in the damage over time – so there is no damage loss! In addition, a new ammo line has been added. The range has been tuned down somewhat (80 %).
Ammo: Ionic Shotgun Shells (Piercing, X-Ray), 24 Bullets, 432 Gramm
Damage per shot: 769.83 (Piercing)
Damage per minute: ca. 11548
Ammo variations: Ionic Shotgun Explosive Shells (Force, Piercing, X-Ray)
Ionic Shotgun Toxic Shells (Piercing, X-Ray, Poison)
Ionic Shotgun Uranium Shells (- Piercing, + X-Ray)
that should answer you snoopy :p
But poison is EVILLLL
And will the new ammo for ionic shottys be actually anything like the xbow because atm the guns sound silly and imo it needs that animation (or whatever u call it) cuming out of that bastard
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