View Full Version : Neocron Evol 2.2 – Summary „Skill system & Class definitions"
In this part of the summary you can obtain a first insight into the preliminary changes of the skill system and the class definitions, based on the feedback from the previous discussions. These changes are not final and you still have the opportunity to take your stand.
Besides the changes to the basic class builds, continuative modifications are made through adjustments of existing items and also through introduction of new game items.
1. Skill system
1.1 The general skill system
Changes to the existing skill system are highlighted and explained beneath.
Mainkills:
Strength (STR)
Dexterity (DEX)
Constitution (CON)
Intelligence (INT)
Psychic Power (PSI)Subskills Strength:
Melee Combat (M-C)
Heavy Combat (H-C)
Transport (TRA)
Resist Force (FOR)
Resist Piercing (PCR)Subskills Dexterity:
Pistol Combat (P-C)
Rifle Combat (R-C)
Hightech Combat (T-C)
Vehicle Use (VHC)
Agility (AGL)
Repair (REP)
Recycle (REC)
Remote Control (RCL)Subskills Constitution:
Athletics (ATL)
Endurance (END)
Resist Fire (FIR)
Resist Energy (ENR)
Resist X-Ray (XRR)
Resist Poison (POR)
Body Health (HLT)Subskills Intelligence:
Hacking (HCK)
Barter (BRT)
PSI Use (PSU)
Weapon Lore (WEP)
Construction (CST)
Research (RES)
Implant (IMP)
Willpower (WPW)Subskills Psychic Power:
Passive PSI Use (PPU)
Aggressive PSI Use (APU)
Focussing (FCS)
PSI Power (PPW)
Resist PSI (PSR)1.2 Changes to the skill system
The subskill “Resist Piercing” has been added
The subskill “Mental Steadiness” has been renamed into “Focussing” and adjusted. This means that the Monk now has to aim like the other classes with the reticule. Inaccurate aiming causes possible fail casts and/or weaker effects of the PSI spells.
The subskill “Resist PSI” remains – but PSI damage will be removed. This subskill weakens effects caused by PSI influence (APU, PPU) and is only relevant for PvP combat. 2. Class definitions
2.1 General classification of the classes
Classification by damage
PSI Monk (APU)
GenTank
Spy
Private Eye Classification by protection
PSI Monk (PPU)
GenTank
Private Eye
Spy
PSI Monk (APU) 2.2 Miscellaneous classifications
A character’s capabilities (health, PSI, stamina, transport, runspeed, etc.) result from the skill system. Modifications through implants, drugs, buffs, etc. are being handled generally. Bonuses to mainskills normally are lower than bonuses to subskills.
2.3 Class-specific changes
2.3.1 The Tank
„The GenTank is a product of the Ceres Wars. He is particularly robust and strong and was bred as a genetically engineered soldier. After the war was over, the human tanks were left to themselves for ‘humanitarian reasons’ rather than being destroyed. Due to the fact that the original genetic blueprint did not call for any particular emotional or intellectual prowess, a GenTank cannot develop any Psi skills. This emotionally disturbed individual is extremely aggressive and talented in the use of all kinds of weapons.”
Skill characteristics
Changes to the mainskills are highlighted
Strength: 100
Dexterity: 75
Constitution: 100
Intelligence: 25
Psychic Power: 0
Changes
Changes are the removal of the PSI abilities, in return the level caps of the mainskills intelligence and dexterity will be raised by 5. The loss of the PSI abilities will be compensated through the introduction of a selfhealing tool.
2.3.2 The Spy
“The Spy is versatile and agile – both physically and mentally. His physical strength has limits, but he can use his razor-sharp mind in many areas – as a system Hacker, for example, or a Rigger (drone operator) – not open to other Runners. Although representatives of this class are particularly agile and fast, the Spy is inferior to the Private Eye in terms of physical strength. He can make up for this by training, having the potential for excellent development in many areas. Should he, however, choose to hone his physical fighting skills he will have a much harder time doing so than will the Private Eye. Psi abilities and all skills involving agility, though, will be easier for him to develop.”
Skill characteristics
Strength: 40
Dexterity: 100
Constitution: 40
Intelligence: 100
Psychic Power: 20
Changes
The mainskills of the Spy remain untouched. Instead existing class specific game items will be adjusted and new game items introduced. In case of the Spy, so called nanite tools which allow the spy to cast special abilities on himself are being introduced. The focus of this abilities lies on buffs to raise the own resists. The objective of these changes is to strengthen the Spy in his role as solo combatant.
2.3.3 The Monk
“Physically, the Psi Monk is at a considerable disadvantage due to his historical evolution. Even with the greatest effort, it is nearly impossible for him to become a good fighter in the traditional sense. In the area of Psi skills, however, all avenues of development are open to him. Psi Monks were the ruling class in Neocron up until the Ceres Wars. Among other things, they created the genetic blueprints for the GenTanks, who turned the tide of the war in favor of Neocron. After the war was over the morally strengthened populace revolted against the heartless regime of the Psi Monks. The Monks were persecuted and driven underground. Following civil reforms and the introduction of the LawNet, they were rehabilitated and can now once again move freely in the city. Nonetheless, they are still despised – or at the very least distrusted – by the populace.”
Skill characteristics
Strength: 20
Dexterity: 35
Constitution: 45
Intelligence: 100
Psychic Power: 100
Changes
The mainskills of the Monk remain untouched. The subskill “Mental Steadiness” will be renamed into “Focussing” and adjusted as already mentioned above. The notorious “random damage” of PSI spells will be removed.
2.3.4 The Private Eye
“The Private Eye does not specialize in any particular area. All of his skills are comparatively weak at the beginning, although evenly developed. A player choosing this class for his Runner strives for a balanced distribution of skill levels in all areas, but must be aware of the fact that this Runner can never be as good in any one skill as a class specializing in that particular area with the exception of a select few. The Private Eye is your average Neocron citizen, who owns a small apartment and leads a normal life. He moves from job to job and doesn't consider performing courier services for the local companies beneath him. However, he has the potential of becoming a bounty hunter, a Psi fighter, a playboy, or even a criminal. Nevertheless, it is a long road to any of those ‘positions’ for an average citizen.”
Skill characteristics
Strength: 60
Dexterity: 80
Constitution: 65
Intelligence: 60
Psychic Power: 35
Changes
The mainskills of the Private Eye remain untouched. In his role as the “jack of all trades” the Private Eye still doesn’t have the possibility to specialize himself but can use the abilities of other classes in a limited way. Like the Spy, the Private Eye will receive nanite tools but with the difference that these tools also allow the casting on other characters, the focus lying on anti-PSI (weaken, debuff) and heal abilities.
[ edited - random comments are of no use to us ]
I really don't see any reason for resist psi and resist pierce, care to explain?
Dribble Joy
02-06-06, 18:06
Resist Piercing (PCR)
I am unsure about thsi, it could work or it might not. Keeping Resist Force and renaming it to something more generric to 'physical' damage might be better.
The subskill “Resist PSI” remains – but PSI damage will be removed. This subskill weakens effects caused by PSI influence (APU, PPU) and is only relevant for PvP combat.
FOR THE LOVE OF FUCK NO!!!!
too many changes and to many parameters can easily lead to chaos and confusion. I faill to see where skill really fits in all this
I certainly hope that resist pierce is not just being put in there just for the sake of making a change....
Dribble Joy
02-06-06, 18:14
too many changes and to many parameters can easily lead to chaos and confusion. I faill to see where skill really fits in all this
Meaning?
Why would changing the nature of the classes in the manners suggested remove the aspect of skill?
Hell-demon
02-06-06, 18:16
Tanks can't resist psi :(
Keep in mind that this will probably go hand in hand with many other changes, so don't be too judgemental until we learn more of the bigger picture.
So far so good, I think. I'll reserve some judgement, because I know this isn't the extent of the changes.
The subskill “Resist PSI” remains – but PSI damage will be removed. This subskill weakens effects caused by PSI influence (APU, PPU) and is only relevant for PvP combat.
Wait. What the fuck was I doing writing several logical and carefuly thought out posts that demonsrated why this idea wouldn't work? That nobody except the "I'm too lazy to buff myself" spies disagreed with? Because clearly KK are going to carry on with that idea anyway.
Aside from that, I'm somewhat dissapointed to see PEs staying with their current skillset. All it seems we are doing them is turning them from supercharged spies to mini-spies. I also think that with properly considered psi powers, such "anti psi" stuff is completley unnecessary. Still, I can undestand some of the reasons.
Erm, although I am aware just a list of order doesnt give the full picture, the fact that tanks come in no.2 in damage and defence is a little concerning, unless PEs/Spies debuffs or buffs are going to be quite effective.
No objections to the concept mind. Just a fair few of the specifics.
Hell-demon
02-06-06, 18:20
Scared I'm gonna give yo ass a wooping Cmaster?
Dribble Joy
02-06-06, 18:20
Aside from that, I'm somewhat dissapointed to see PEs staying with their current skillset. All it seems we are doing them is turning them from supercharged spies to mini-spies.
Again, with the proper changes to items and things, this need not happen, besides, a large change to the current skills would mean PEs would need class specific items in order to compete.
Wait. What the fuck was I doing writing several logical and carefuly thought out posts that demonsrated why this idea wouldn't work? . I think it's safe to assume that there are quite a few nooblets in the german balancing forum who are pushing for ideas such as resist psi. Due to the fact that this game wasn't balanced properly in the first place, putting something such as resist psi into the game seems like a very bad idea. I guess we'll wait and see on the test server.
Scared I'm gonna give yo ass a wooping Cmaster?
Why not, everybody else does.
But erm, what in my post makes you say that.
you know the xp we will lose from psi will we lose it all together or will it be but in to dex ?
i think everything is fine, but as alot of peopel have said Resist PSI seems a bad idea, and will probably fuk alot of things up in some way, dotn ask me how, they just will ;)
Hell-demon
02-06-06, 18:39
But erm, what in my post makes you say that.
I'm a tank remember ;)
Could be worse, could be better, although the resist pierce just seems like a filler skill to distribute points differently, plus the reduction of damage based on the frc/prc skill points will have to be completely changed since now having to spec pierce, force is going to suffer.
Resist psi will also really need to be how Poison is now, only a couple of points to be effective because Tanks will have none, if you need points in resist psi like you do in force and the con resist skills then they will be fucked over by APU's to hell and back.
Honestly taking away PSI from tanks is quite idiotic they makes tanks completely dependant on others for anything including lvl'ing and solo'ing.
Tanks should keep there Psi for the simple fact that they NEED to be able to be independant as well as other classes.
Honestly taking away PSI from tanks is quite idiotic they makes tanks completely dependant on others for anything including lvl'ing and solo'ing.
Tanks should keep there Psi for the simple fact that they NEED to be able to be independant as well as other classes.
Read.
Changes
Changes are the removal of the PSI abilities, in return the level caps of the mainskills intelligence and dexterity will be raised by 5. The loss of the PSI abilities will be compensated through the introduction of a selfhealing tool.
Tanks can't resist psi :(
We adding some new armorsets, especially for tanks.
I think it's safe to assume that there are quite a few nooblets in the german balancing forum who are pushing for ideas such as resist psi. Due to the fact that this game wasn't balanced properly in the first place, putting something such as resist psi into the game seems like a very bad idea. I guess we'll wait and see on the test server.
No Resist PSI is just their way to nerf APU/PPU's without actually affecting the spells themselves it's a stupid nerf that no one's gonna use on any of the classes. As it would take away from their current PSI setups unless they completely take out all the heal spells and all the shelter spells.
I think KK is just doing things half-assed instead of thinking things through as usual this isn't a flame on KK it's just pointing out what I would say the community in a whole think. Now am I 100% sure this is what the NC Community thinks no but from what people I have talked to there is a strong inclination that that is the thoughts of the community.
Looks good on the paper at least. Now to wait for next year until they patch it. :lol:
We adding some new armorsets, especially for tanks.
Then post them and lets us see the specs so that people will understand WHY you are doing this don't just say it's gonna happen and not show good reason. I mean honestly how are we supposed to be satisfied that this is the best course of action for balancing if we don't know what the fuck is going on?
I mean honestly is this self healing tool going to be implemented into PA and if it is then they need to re-balance PA's.
HC Should take away from Int and and Weapon Lore
PE's Should take from Con and Endurance
Spies Should take from Psi and PPU
Monks Should take from Strength and Transport
Dribble Joy
02-06-06, 19:10
Then post them and lets us see the specs so that people will understand WHY you are doing this don't just say it's gonna happen and not show good reason.
Posting specs won't mean anything with the armour/resist/defence systems being overhauled.
As for resist psi, this will have a bigger impact on PEs and spies than monks, unless PEs and spies can completely rely on nanotech to replace it.
Posting specs won't mean anything with the armour/resist/defence systems being overhauled.
As for resist psi, this will have a bigger impact on PEs and spies than monks, unless PEs and spies can completely rely on nanotech to replace it.
It's not about seeing the specs it's about seeing how they plan to implement this self healing tool for Tanks will it be something you carry in your belt will it be hardwired into your PA or what?
And as I said before Resist Psi won't be used by any one unless All Heal and Buff spells are removed. I know on my PE I won't use it if I still have to have 75 PPU 50 MST and 22 PSI Power to use my Haz 1.
I'm glad that they are introducing resist pierce because it will help force people to rethink strength, however I do hope the make endurance useful as atm it's totally 100% pointless, no one ever specs it, it's like resist psi is atm.
I think resist psi may cause some problems depending on if it effects healing etc.
I like the extra 5 int for tanks, and if I can drive and gun a rhino i'll be very happy :D
I was wondering what will actually happen to the PE though, I mean you said he'll be unable to reach the same levels as other classes, but atm he can with the use of drugs, will pe's lose the ability to use rares, and damage buff or just one or the other? I don't want PE's to become gimp'd but on the other hand I don't want them to be over powered.
Hell-demon
02-06-06, 19:27
Even if you leave Pantho, you'll still come back. You'll want to see the carnage. Or jump onto the class band wagon that is superior due to poor balancing :rolleyes:
RogerRamjet
02-06-06, 19:40
Hmm, interesting.
I dont like the idea of any major skills being changed, but i am liking the reticule idea for monks, although the monk problem could be changed without adding a reticule.
I think it's safe to assume that there are quite a few nooblets in the german balancing forum who are pushing for ideas such as resist psi. Due to the fact that this game wasn't balanced properly in the first place, putting something such as resist psi into the game seems like a very bad idea. I guess we'll wait and see on the test server.
Im sure we all voted against resist psi. The community means nothing I guess :mad:
Heavyporker
02-06-06, 19:52
Good lord. I hope they don't go nuts with the Resist Psi armor and such.
I mean, geez, there's the resist-psi implants, and probably a resist-psi drug but I can't remember.
I will very cautiously watch how that self-heal tool comes out.
For the love of Crahn... at least create some new gfxs for the tools if you're going to introduce more of them. I'm tired of seeing the same gfx for hack tools, stealth tools, ass-wipe tools, remove-object tools, painting tools. For that matter I'm tired of seeing the same gfx for construct tools, recycle tools, salvage tools, etc etc etc!
And I've been outgame for nearly a year! Damn!
Also, how exactly does Resist Psi affect what one recieves from being hit with APU/PPU? Because the wording interested me: it didn't say that one would take less damage. The emphasis was on "effects from APU/PPU". Does that mean that, for example, with decent Resist Psi, one might have counters removed from a stack of poison, say, so that instead of 15 ticks, we only have to suffer 10? Reductions in the % that Damage Boost sticks it to you? What?
I think it's safe to assume that there are quite a few nooblets in the german balancing forum who are pushing for ideas such as resist psi. Due to the fact that this game wasn't balanced properly in the first place, putting something such as resist psi into the game seems like a very bad idea. I guess we'll wait and see on the test server.
noone in the german forums requested resist psi afaik. other ideas seem to be ok, tho iwonder what a pe will feel like after balancing (especially hc and mc pes as they added this str based new resist skill)
Guys, these changes are being made in tandem with so many others that we just can't see the full picture right now. They are introducing the changes as they are decided on that framework. Until we get a better understanding of the total system, you can't instantly assume it will be bad. Some people are making the mistake of assuming these changes from the perspective of gameplay as it is in game today, which is blatently not valid.
The point of this thread isn't really to argue about the changes - that's reserved for the other threads they made about each issue and general system. I think the point of this thread is to show us what's being planned, one step at a time. More and more will be revealed to us, and it will start fitting together. Reserve some judgement until we see the big picture.
Once we have an idea of the big picture, to the point where we can test it on the testserver, then we can hammer out the fine details in balancing, and further improve the game. Until that time, don't assume too much about any one particular change.
... for example, with decent Resist Psi, one might have counters removed from a stack of poison, say, so that instead of 15 ticks, we only have to suffer 10? Reductions in the % that Damage Boost sticks it to you? What?
this isnt decided finally,
but your idea sounds intresting,
we will think about that.
One question I think from Hydra: This selfheal-tool is in your quickbelt - it's a kind of an injector.
This Resist PSI Thing: We are trying to give you the decision to become a supported or an unsupported class. Everything which is produced by PSI (no matter if this is APU or PPU) will become less effective the more you skill this - how much this will be in final figures will be setted up on the testserver.
Please hold in mind: This is an option - please think about the concept. Do you want to have this option? And at the end if everybody votes for: "Hell no - we don't want this in pvp!" - we can skip this option ...
And the "Resist Piercing" Skill: After adding you have the option to skill this - It is not a "must have". You can reach a similar protection by armor/buffs alone (as it is now).
Please give these concepts a chance - the needed skillpoints to do this or that must not be the settings in the future ...
One question I think from Hydra: This selfheal-tool is in your quickbelt - it's a kind of an injector.
This Resist PSI Thing: We are trying to give you the decision to become a supported or an unsupported class. Everything which is produced by PSI (no matter if this is APU or PPU) will become less effective the more you skill this - how much this will be in final figures will be setted up on the testserver.
And the "Resist Piercing" Skill: After adding you have the option to skill this - It is not a "must have". You can reach a similar protection by armor/buffs alone (as it is now).
... Ohh, resist psi also works against buffs, I thought it just meant APU dmg or PPU para + db. The problem is that the skill in inside your psi mainskill, meaning that it will effect how well you can buff yourself. Maybe this won't be as important because of other changes, but for example, my PE would be very gimped right now if I had to spec any large amount of resist psi. However, if you only need to spec something small for a big difference, then this is a fantastic idea.
Ohh, resist psi also works against buffs, I thought it just meant APU dmg or PPU para + db. The problem is that the skill in inside your psi mainskill, meaning that it will effect how well you can buff yourself. Maybe this won't be as important because of other changes, but for example, my PE would be very gimped right now if I had to spec any large amount of resist psi. However, if you only need to spec something small for a big difference, then this is a fantastic idea.
Well, as for your PE, you wouldn't heal as well if you did spec that, but you'd also take less damage to need healing from - assuming you're fighting people using PSI on you. It's just another choice really, as long as it's appropriately weighted and balanced, I don't see it causing too much of a problem on its own.
OK so here's how it is:
Someone who does spec resist psi, is someone who wants to play on their own without PPU support
Someone who doesn't spec it gets good buffs from PPU but can't play as well on their own without the PPU.
But hang on, if the guy who doesn't spec resist psi can buff himself better, then how on earth would he be worse off than the other guy who does spec it, in a solo situation.
I like the idea of having to choose between PPU support or not, but I don't understand why it should effect the solo guy's buffs.
This Resist PSI Skill will only affect spells from other players - for what reason will your mind work against your own decisions?
This thing will protect you against psi-manipulation from your environment in any case - nothing more!
I'll hope this helps ...
Interesting things. Hope to see 2.2 soon and how it will change gameplay.
This Resist PSI Skill will only affect spells from other players - for what reason will your mind work against your own decisions?
This thing will protect you against psi-manipulation from your environment in any case - nothing more!
I'll hope this helps ... But if my character wants resist psi, then he can spend less points on other skills in his psi (ppu, ppw, mst), so his self buffs will be worse.
ashley watts
02-06-06, 22:02
The PE is not "jack of all trades", in my eyes a PE is better than a spy as they can use any spy weapon which saddens me as i know a lot of dedicated spys what are very good PvP'ers. This also pretty much goes for the tank as a TPC with DB doesnt come far off. :mad: :mad:
Changes
The mainskills of the Private Eye remain untouched. In his role as the “jack of all trades” the Private Eye still doesn’t have the possibility to specialize himself but can use the abilities of other classes in a limited way. Like the Spy, the Private Eye will receive nanite tools but with the difference that these tools also allow the casting on other characters, the focus lying on anti-PSI (weaken, debuff) and heal abilities.
Since When is the Jack of all Trades able to use a Specialist's Weapon Such as Slasher,Executioner, Disruptor, First love, Silent hunter, Healing Light, Cursed Soul, Paw of Tiger??? I dont see you taking away anything From Pe's but rather giving them a cool new tool to use? Not only are they already THE BEST solo Class but with the Crossbows and PPU buffs they fair VERY well in Op fights as well. For God Sakes I hope the New tank Armor is going to be a Tank only Req Or You might Aswell Rename the Pe class "GOD"...*sighs*. I hope it works out alot better than it sounds.
They're obviously gonna change what they can and can't use :rolleyes:
too much carlsberg?
Lowtech Boost Yayayayayyay!!
Apocalypsox
02-06-06, 23:52
sounds kinda good...the Malus for the Resist PSI will be EXTREMELY useful to spies now that we have nanite tools, as i had suggested 2 years ago when i started playing NC. i was all like WTF? theres no nanite buff toolz? anyways sounds good to me. i hope they introduce the high level medkits though...tanks shouldnt have to pull out a tool all the time to heal.
Dexterity based first aid skill.. (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=98270)
Hmmm havent read what everyone else said, sorry if it been stated.
Im glad the PE is still going to be a dex (Pistol/ rifle) only using so called jack of all trades.....:rolleyes:
Cant we have PE's able to reach the same level/dmg Melee weapon as HC wep as pistol as hacknet software as drone, etc?
Why cant the PE be a jack of all trades?
Dont say it "can" or "will be", because we all know they are going to stay dex only based, KK have claimed them as JOAT from the start, and they never have been.... i think its time this changed.
so does that mean that the ORIGINAL plan of 2.2 to change the fucking spasticated looking 5 year old models have been scraped?
Or are you going to finally change them?
to IMPROVE them I mean!!
Hell-demon
03-06-06, 01:11
yeah fix the models too
so does that mean that the ORIGINAL plan of 2.2 to change the fucking spasticated looking 5 year old models have been scraped?
Or are you going to finally change them?
to IMPROVE them I mean!!
Yes i mean models of nobby aint good
Dribble Joy
03-06-06, 01:40
To quote myself from the other thread:
I think either there's an issue of lost in translation, or misuse of the correct terms.
The PE is not and probably will not be average in the way you mean. If they were truely average/JoaT they could use rifles, pistols, melee, heavy, apu, ppu and tradeskill to an average degree, all at the same time.
This is not so, PEs simply have a larger range of potential paths to take than the other classes, and rather than being average in them, combine their mix of powers so tat their chosen path is as powerful as that of any class, just in a slightly different way, for example: An HC PE will be as effective as an HC tank, because despite his lower str and not being able to reach the higher weapons - and thus a lower offencive potential - his defensive make-up is higher.
As to Resist Psi; If it is going to affect PPU and APU equally, then this should include self casts. Having 100 fire resist and setting yourself on fire will do less damage than if you had none. Removing it's affects form self casts would not promote team play (PPUs need not be 'balanced' by resist psi, there are better ways of doing it).
In general it would probably (in concept, not based on current mechanics), complicate matters as speccing it would dent your own defencive capacity (whether it affects selfcasts or not, the simple skilling of it will reduce your PPU skills) when facing non psi based opponents.
One overriding aim of this balancing effort should be simplicity.
But if my character wants resist psi, then he can spend less points on other skills in his psi (ppu, ppw, mst), so his self buffs will be worse.
Character Data for Resist PSI PE
Character Class: Private Eye
Ranking: 42/64
None
-----------Intelligence-----------
Current: 66 6
Skill: Hacking = 15 15
Skill: Barter = 0 0
Skill: PSI Use = 80 -15
Skill: Weapon Lore = 110 20
Skill: Construction = 0 0
Skill: Research = 0 0
Skill: Implant = 4 4
Skill: Willpower = 0 0
-----------Strength-----------
Current: 60 0
Skill: Melee Combat = 9 9
Skill: Heavy Combat = 0 -9
Skill: Transport = 115 6
Skill: Resist Force = 114 38
-----------Constitution-----------
Current: 63 -2
Skill: Athletics = 80 25
Skill: Body Health = 114 37
Skill: Endurance = 16 16
Skill: Resist Fire = 53 15
Skill: Resist Energy = 59 15
Skill: Resist X-Ray = 72 25
Skill: Resist Poison = 55 30
-----------Dexterity-----------
Current: 98 18
Skill: Pistol Combat = 165 25
Skill: Rifle Combat = 0 0
Skill: HighTech Combat = 5 5
Skill: Vehicle Use = 0 0
Skill: Agility = 120 51
Skill: Repair = 0 0
Skill: Recycle = 0 0
Skill: Remote Control = 0 0
-----------PSI-----------
Current: 35 0
Skill: Passive PSI Use = 56 0
Skill: Agressive PSI Use = 0 0
Skill: Mental Steadiness = 31 0
Skill: PSI Power = 27 0
Skill: Resist PSI = 51 0
-----------Extra-----------
Current: 0 0
-------Character Inventory-------
Inquisition Helmet 2 (Helmet)
Inquisition Armored Vest 2 (Vest)
Medium Energy Protection Belt (Belt)
Crahn Holy Shelter Trousers (Trousers)
Crahn Holy Shelter Boots (Boots)
BioTech (M.O.V.E.O.N) CPU (Brain Chip)
Protopharm Resistor Chip (Brain Chip)
Experimental Ballistic Weapon Chip 3 (Brain Chip)
Special Forces CPU (Brain Chip)
Pistol CombatEye 3 (Eye)
Filter Heart 2 (Heart)
Crahn Power Gauntlet (Glove)
Experimental ReflexBooster 4 (Spine)
Biotech AntiGamma Headbone (Headbone)
Biotech AntiGamma Chest Enforcement (Chest)
Biotech AntiGamma Arm Enforcement (Arm)
Biotech AntiGamma Leg Enforcement (Leg)
Biotech AntiGamma Foot Enforcement (Foot)
Shelter (Shelter)
Deflector (Deflector)
Melee Combat Booster 1 (Combat)
Spy Booster 1 (Support)
Basic Resist Booster 2 (Resist)
Redflash (Drug)
---------------------------------
450 hitpoints 125 energy/fire/xray 50 posion good run speed lowtech PE, with out damage boost mind speccing 51 resist PSI.
I think its a great idea ;)
Dribble Joy
03-06-06, 01:57
Pity all the skill managers are essentially obsolete now :p.
Well I was just messing about to see how you could use it in some setups that are in use now. If you was a TSU rifle PE you could get quite a bit of resist PSI from the implants allready in game, since you don't need any dex imps.
I also think the resist piercing subskill could be the boost lowtech users need and a good boost for everyone vs MONKS!! The spy/PE/Tank get plenty of this resist from armor alone, so I don't know why everyone is getting so worked up. =/
Apocalypsox
03-06-06, 02:49
my spy will offically put all his PSI into resist. Nanites 4tw.
It would seem that non-PvP players are still affected by resist Psi. If they were to accidentally invest points in it (as most of the current class templates do), they will receive less benefit from their LE'ed PPU supporters, correct?
It's more accurate to say that Resist Psi will have little impact on LE'ed players, not that it only affects PvP. It'll still impact LE'ed players with respect to PPU support (unless the LE turns off Resist Psi completely).
Don't forget to update the char templates to stop putting points into Resist Psi, and while you're at it, could you add an Expert template that doesn't allocate any trainpoints at char creation?
Very good news, it's good to see this summary. I am very happy, but i was wondering if that balance patch could also fix the mob ranks, as mobs became stronger lately, i think the credit/xp rank thing should be removed so clearing warbot fields dont just take ammo, even if it's a few hundred credits.
There is also a need to summarise all WOC balance and the new armor for tanks. Some new mobs would be nice, there is a mob in the doy tunnels also that needs fixed as it instantly kills everyone. I agree there needs to be new models for tools and such , new animations for implants, more new sounds , i want to see people researching, recycling, constructing, implanting in animations with others. Would be nice to see people sitting on table tradeskilling, you probably wouldnt even have to ask as you would see the actual tool you need and recognize it and then ask the tradeskiller immediatly instead of looking for one.
PE'S also will have to be looked upon and i agree on a lot of what has been said here, thanks for this update, much apreciated.
Meaning?
Why would changing the nature of the classes in the manners suggested remove the aspect of skill?
Simply because, there are introduced 2 (PCR & PSR) subskills that changes things in a lot of ways. How do you ballance a system with 2 more parameters introduced? Pierce/force weapons will threat monks & spies the most, while against psi, a tank can do nothing against, and so does a spy in some extent. How will it be viable for soloers to stay alive with 2 more subskills to skill?
And still nothing about the main issues that plague neocron these last 2 years: netlag and clipping, even if that means a rewritten gfx engine
This Resist PSI Skill will only affect spells from other players - for what reason will your mind work against your own decisions?
This thing will protect you against psi-manipulation from your environment in any case - nothing more!
I'll hope this helps ...
OK that changes the way i have been seeing this.
It was a little unclear before and i was under the impression that it would also effect self cast buffs and heals.
But if you can get it to work in the way you intend it could be very useful indeed and add a great tactical element to solo play vs monks and even vs monk teams.
Bring it on.
EDIT > ppl are once again jumping the gun. I know we can only draw our conclusions based on what we are presented atm but its has been stated many times that aspects including armour, weapons, drugs are going to be looked at, changed and improved.
For instance one of the mods has said in this very thread that there will not be the essential need to spec resist prc as apporx the same lvl of protection can also be acheived with buffs and armour.
They might introduce a psi resist drug and a mod has already said they are working on new armour sets for tanks to include psi resist.
Just because they said they are doing that for tanks, it doesnt mean they are not going to consider adding new armour for other classes aswell, or adjusting the current bonuses of armour and PA's.
I think if kk presented us with their idea's for new items/armour/drugs etc and gave us a brief description of how they work, what they offer and what classes they are intended for, it would make things easier to understand the changes you have suggested so far.
Im sure we all voted against resist psi. The community means nothing I guess :mad:
Did you take into account the german forums?
Did you take into account the german forums?
did you read the german forums?
basically the only pro resist psi ppl said that they need to have some non psi based psi resist imps in game then, which seems viable imo.
both forums don't differ that much at most points and you really shouldn't be so arrogant as to say no german is able to pvp or all things you dislike have to be an idea posted by someone on a forum which language you don't speak. :rolleyes:
Mighty Max
03-06-06, 11:49
Im sure we all voted against resist psi. The community means nothing I guess :mad:
There is a difference between a vote and a discussion. A two word post "1! definately" might have been a too weak argument against the resi skills (actually there were a few, but only a few, who backed that up with an point) where on the other points nearly everyone had something to say.
The constructive discussing Comunity means all!
I think its a great idea ;) You wouldn't be able to use anything above tl25 shelter, which is quite gimped if the debuffs are higher lvl than that. I really do like the idea of resist psi making you choose between team or solo, but it just seems odd to have it affect your self buffs. I would like to have it so if you have just 1 point specced in resist psi then you are a solo player, if you have 0 then you have the team player version.
erm as stated several times by kk staff it doesn't affect selfcast. :p
This Resist PSI Skill will only affect spells from other players - for what reason will your mind work against your own decisions?
This thing will protect you against psi-manipulation from your environment in any case - nothing more!
I'll hope this helps ...
that btw was an answer to a statement by you on page 2 of this thread, so plz read b4 posting
erm as stated several times by kk staff it doesn't affect selfcast. :p
It would affect your self cast because if you want to spend points in resist psi, then you have less points to spend in your PPU skill. Which is what i've been saying all along :mad:
as a pe you can lower your ppw a lil to get some resists. a spy can go full nano as they (if what kk said is true) will be more efficient anyways.
that would lead to pe's being more sensitive to psi then the other non monk classes, so what? wouldn't it lead to much more diversity if all classes would have problems defeating one other class?
and additionaly you have higher defs than a spy so they will add i assume.
It would affect your self cast because if you want to spend points in resist psi, then you have less points to spend in your PPU skill. Which is what i've been saying all along :mad:
Yes Its true you might not be able to use anything above TL25 shelter but that would be the players choice. I have tested damage on shelter affecting how much damage you absorb. As far as I can tell it has very little or no effect at all , tested it the day befor and was disapointed that my 390% damage shelter gave no extra protection =/
This argument has been done to death on these forums. And the inevitable result is - resist psi would benefit monks and punish all others. We are planning on taking psi away from tanks entirely, so now the tank, the supposed damage sponge is going to be exposded to damage they cannot resist. Great.
You've got spies and PEs, who are already strapped into making hard choice with their psi points. SPies have very little, so even speccing ALL psi into PSR would give them very little resistance. PEs are always going to have to make use of the defensive aspects of psi. So now we face them with a choice - be good at resisting psi damage, or be good at dealing with all other types.
THen the monks. THey can easily trade off a bit of pool size or a bit of weapon damage % in exchange for plenty of spi resist. As a result, the only class now capable of figthing monks are other monks, while everyone else scraps among themselves.
Please dont do this KK. THere is no need and it breaks more than it fixes. I can dredge up 10 threads on this with plentuy of strong arguments from the nay and almost none for the yea if needs be.
There's just something about speccing skills to defend against a single skill for a single class that I don't like the idea of.
Adding PSR armour doesn't change this, neither does extra imps. It still means your setup is being based around fighting ONE class (or not). It still makes things harder for anyone who isnt a monk who has psi points to throw around. And if you make PEs and spies not need Psi because of their tech skills, thats the most pointless action ever and leaves PEs with 35 levels in something thats just another con and spies with 20...
Also, on the idea of speccing to use a PPU or not, I have this to say:
You know what will happen if we start making a big differntiation between speccing for teams and solo?
We'll get all the "133t pkers" speccing for solo, then whinging their asses off everytime they get killed by a team who knows what they are doing. We'll get those who spec for teams whigning about how they got "griefed" when a pker caught them on their own. Sure, people will whinge anyway, but doing this kinda thing will make people scream that things still aren't balanced.
Unles the influernce of a PPU is near enough equal on all classes and setups, we have once again the problem of X/PPU teams and people who dont have PPUs and dont benefit if one turns up.
God, I'm such an arrogant bastard quoting myself, but I don't feel like rewording it.
as a pe you can lower your ppw a lil to get some resists. a spy can go full nano as they (if what kk said is true) will be more efficient anyways.
that would lead to pe's being more sensitive to psi then the other non monk classes, so what? wouldn't it lead to much more diversity if all classes would have problems defeating one other class?
and additionaly you have higher defs than a spy so they will add i assume. I've interpreted the whole point of psi resist to make players choose to either be good with a PPU but crap solo, or you can be crap with PPU and better solo and I think that's what KK intended it to be like, especially since John Doe said that he doesn't want it to affect self buffs. It starts becoming very complicated to balance if you want people to spend less points in other psi skills to spend it in psi resists.
tbh i think it would be far better if you don't have an option to be just good solo/crap in team or vice versa.
and trading off some of your defensive capabilities to be more resistent against a certain damage type is the same as tweaking your const a bit. you trade off resistance to all damage (aka health) for resistance of against x-ray damage (aka spy/pe). same is with ppu(all foes) -> psi resist (monks)
I guess we'll wait and see how it works on the test server, but I just think that solo players should have better self buffs, not worse.
tbh i think it's more a decision fight monks/others than fight solo/teamed. at least that's how it looks like atm, tho you're absolutely right about needing to test this stuff :)
I'd like to see PE's lose 5 dex and their power armour.. it would stop them using slasher/exec/sh/fl without using 3 drugs, and giving them an extra 5 str will allow m-c pe's to use pot without having to use a 5 minute drug, and h-c pe's could use TPC without drugging (it's a non-rare..)
I'm still very scheptical of the tanks "healtool" will it work medkit style or hack tool style? and any rough idea on how it's to be used.. low effect frequent use, or med/high effect slow use..
PSI Resist should decrease the chances of psi effects to "hit" the target, instead of reducing the effect of all hits from monks.. it would work well with the reticle imo.
Having piercing resist and force resist will be interesting.. all low tech weapons (cept peacemaker iirc) do piercing damage but nearly all weapons can be modded to do force resist.. will be interesting to see how things go, more force modded weapons or more low tech weapons used.
I'd like to see PE's lose 5 dex and their power armour.. it would stop them using slasher/exec/sh/fl without using 3 drugs, and giving them an extra 5 str will allow m-c pe's to use pot without having to use a 5 minute drug, and h-c pe's could use TPC without drugging (it's a non-rare..)
would also increase the dex based pe's armor, so dunno if this is a good idea, additionaly imo pe's should have more dex than tanks :p
Night Hunter
03-06-06, 20:58
So a tank with ZERO Psi would lose the option to psi heal completely but it would be replaced with the healing armour... ok fair trade and then I get the PSI points in other stats - nice.
Will the heal from the healing armour be stackable with Medipacks? AND with a PPU heal? (0 resist remember) if so the already tough tank could be super charged.
Personally I like this idea of making all the classes more specialised and different in appearance and utilisation.
The Spy should be a ranged solo "wimp" trying not to get shot or tradeskill nerd / hacker etc,
The Monk a scary creature or lovable in the case of PPU's :angel: (listing my ideas for these would take up too much space atm),
Tanks should be armoured soldiers that can play catch with a nuclear bomb and still stand. :eek:
While PE's should be highly versatile driver/gunners etc. capable of utilising the mid range powers of all classes but not the specialised high level abilities. :cool:
I play mostly Spies and the nanite tool is very appealing if the applications are right but so far it sounds the same as a PSI glove which allows the spy to "cast" spells -- Please avoid these similarities. We need new powers along the lines of the stealth tool (please extend this time or allow attacks from it). How about a holographic-self tool? A Displacement tool? A sound (voice) throwing tool to mislead opponents? A short jump/line of sight teleport tool? A wrist GR that only takes you to your apartment? A shield that can be placed in a window to allow bullets only one way? Way point tools for missile guns? You get the idea ;)
Talking of balance - Are the nanite tools stackable with PSI spell effects froma PPU friend, assuming zero resist PSI? (and maybe new types spy armour? Read - tank healing armour and spy displacement tool idea) if so... Ouch! 8|
Concerning items - Could all new items be scattered rather than in the shops i.e. some in just TH, more missions just for them? Jones tank = tank armour etc. Make us hunt for this cool new stuff!
Also, we need more reason to CST armour/tools/implants etc. maybe all self CST get chance of slots these could include slots for speed of job, quality bonus, extend duration, +5% to something etc.
[/B] We need new powers along the lines of the stealth tool (please extend this time or allow attacks from it). How about a holographic-self tool? A Displacement tool? A sound (voice) throwing tool to mislead opponents? A short jump/line of sight teleport tool? A wrist GR that only takes you to your apartment? A shield that can be placed in a window to allow bullets only one way? Way point tools for missile guns? You get the idea ;)
erm holovests that would weigh less and also change the name and faction of the user would really be nice. attacking from stealth or through a one way obstacle, or having an emergency escape button (like teleport/gr on the char) would turn the game into spyocron tho :p
Concerning items - Could all new items be scattered rather than in the shops i.e. some in just TH, more missions just for them? Jones tank = tank armour . I disagree with this, the new content should be so vital that it should be sold in shops along with items like tl3 heal and stealth.
EDIT: also because it would seriously delay the release of the patch.
Night Hunter
03-06-06, 22:18
erm holovests that would weigh less and also change the name and faction of the user would really be nice. attacking from stealth or through a one way obstacle, or having an emergency escape button (like teleport/gr on the char) would turn the game into spyocron tho :pMaybe some of the ideas are a bit much but at least we're now getting creative rather than duplicating effects from other classes, which is my main point of concern.
BTW I like your holovest idea :)
Not too keen on the idea that the PE can use the Spies Nanite tool on others while the spy can only use it on himself, the PE could end up as just another PPU if its DEX based :( Why is it that the PE uses it better than the Spy, I thought it was a balancer for the Spy? Are PE's just spies with better physical combat skills?
I disagree with this, the new content should be so vital that it should be sold in shops along with items like tl3 heal and stealth. Yes, in some cases. But wouldn't you rather have to interact with characters to get that special piece of equipment from an enemy faction or a difficult place. All I'm saying is please don't just dump them ALL in the standard shops that everyone expects, some items should only be found with a smuggler (who already exists as with the tl3 heal) or maybe at a certain type of OP?
But missions are fun and a few low level ones wouldn't go amiss. There seems to be a lack of them while leveling and this seems like an ideal opportunity to drop in a few more quick and basic ones. As a Noob I loved my Jones mission and then starting my epic...but having to wait TEN whole levels between them... Slow going for a noob.
Balancing needs to take place at all levels not just PvP or level 40+ Seems to me most missions are only around after level 45 and you complete your epic. As you have said, this also needs to be balanced against how quickly we want the patch. Personally I would rather they take time and get it right, if they get it wrong then impatient players will leave.
Not too keen on the idea that the PE can use the Spies Nanite tool on others while the spy can only use it on himself, the PE could end up as just another PPU if its DEX based :( Why is it that the PE uses it better than the Spy, I thought it was a balancer for the Spy? Are PE's just spies with better physical combat skills?
as far as kk said the nanites the pe uses will be different than the ones a spy uses. more debuff stuff and mebbe a heal, but no buffs for other chars. and the effect will be weaker than that of the spy tool, so no need to worry :D
did you read the german forums?
basically the only pro resist psi ppl said that they need to have some non psi based psi resist imps in game then, which seems viable imo.
both forums don't differ that much at most points and you really shouldn't be so arrogant as to say no german is able to pvp or all things you dislike have to be an idea posted by someone on a forum which language you don't speak. :rolleyes:
Did I say that germans cant pvp? All i said was "did you take into account the german forums?" Since I can't read german I've not read them, so for all i know the german forum about resist PSI was "YES YES YES!!!" Since I assumed pabz doesnt speak german either I also assumed he'd not taken into account the possiblity of them saying they'd like resist psi ingame, thus the reason for my post. So don't go flaming just because you mis-understand what I said, there's no need to be abusive.
3) Keep the Resist Psi skill. Increasing Resist Psi would not only reduce the damage taken by Psi modules, but would also weaken the effect of beneficial Psi modules likes heals or boosters. Players would have to choose between increasing their solo survival potential (less damage taken, but weak Psi support) or a more team-oriented path (normal damage taken, but also normal psi support). Again, the tank would have the possibility to make his choice through armor and/or implants.
It doesn't mention anything about weaker self buffs (from having to spec less ppu to spec psi resist, so I assume this will be an unwanted side effect of introducing the skill. Could an official please comment on this?
It doesn't mention anything about weaker self buffs (from having to spec less ppu to spec psi resist, so I assume this will be an unwanted side effect of introducing the skill. Could an official please comment on this?
That *was* mentioned later on, if you read through you'll see it but, it says "self buffs will be uneffected."
Its starting to look interesting.
Can't wait to try some of these new things out.
That *was* mentioned later on, if you read through you'll see it but, it says "self buffs will be uneffected." how would they manage that without making resist psi "free" to spec points in?
how would they manage that without making resist psi "free" to spec points in?
give up giga .. it's really to complicated and tbh you cant expect the common nc player to comprehend that putting points in psr leaves you with less points to put in ppu for capping selfbuffs - thus having an effect on your self-buff ability (although the technical impact will not be altered).
I'd like to see an official respond to this as well .. or at least a sign that this is being considered when it comes to balancing psi :)
Dribble Joy
04-06-06, 15:40
I'd like to see PE's lose 5 dex and their power armour.. it would stop them using slasher/exec/sh/fl without using 3 drugs, and giving them an extra 5 str will allow m-c pe's to use pot without having to use a 5 minute drug, and h-c pe's could use TPC without drugging (it's a non-rare..)
Remember that:
PAs will change
Imps will change
Drugs will change
Weapon TLs will change
All you need to do is make it so that PEs can't go above about 105-110 dex and spred the top weapons up to 130, which can easily be done given the range of things you can alter.
give up giga .. it's really to complicated and tbh you cant expect the common nc player to comprehend that putting points in psr leaves you with less points to put in ppu for capping selfbuffs - thus having an effect on your self-buff ability (although the technical impact will not be altered).
NEIN! I won't give up on this game and let the noobs take over
One Question:
Will any "overcapped" exp we have disappear when the changes are made?
AKA- will tanks with overcapped dex and int just end up with their extra 5 levels, or do they lose all the exp they worked to get and have to level them up again. Or will it just screw over every class thats trying to get a WoC level?
Way point tools for missile guns? You get the idea ;)
Haha, Spy points tool at op, gen tank next to him pulls out a large missle launcher and shoots into op doing mass aoe damage and killing all the monks, Love it!
One Question:
Will any "overcapped" exp we have disappear when the changes are made?
AKA- will tanks with overcapped dex and int just end up with their extra 5 levels, or do they lose all the exp they worked to get and have to level them up again. Or will it just screw over every class thats trying to get a WoC level? The changes made only affect a tank's dex and psi, you can't get woc on either.
Dribble Joy
04-06-06, 18:08
One Question:
Will any "overcapped" exp we have disappear when the changes are made?
AKA- will tanks with overcapped dex and int just end up with their extra 5 levels, or do they lose all the exp they worked to get and have to level them up again. Or will it just screw over every class thats trying to get a WoC level?
I think their Str won't be affected for WoC. As to int/dex I have no idea, hopefully, their xp totals will remain the same and they will gain the appropriate levels.
Hi everybody - I was very busy at the weekend ...
So there are still questions on that "Resist PSI Topic" but I don't really get the point. Please explain - depending on the information we've allready gave - what parts are unclear? I will try to explain if these points are allready defined ...
giga191: will you start?
Dribble Joy
05-06-06, 12:43
giga191: will you start?
O_o
So there are still questions on that "Resist PSI Topic" but I don't really get the point. Please explain - depending on the information we've allready gave - what parts are unclear? I will try to explain if these points are allready defined ...
It seemed quite apparent that previously the community (or at least the english one) was firmly against the continued inclusion of resist psi (as seen here (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=133397)).
Reasons being can be found in that thread but essentially fall down to a few points:
Even if resist psi had no effect on all your casting self or foreign, skilling it would lead to reduced skilling in other areas, unless you ASSUME people are going to spec a cirtain proportion of your points in resist psi, you can't balance how it will adversely affect casting.
If you do spec it, then if it does impact your defences or offences, then you are only going to benefit from it in Psi based PvP defence. You will loose out against anyone not using Psi as an offence.
If you don't spec it then you will loose to psi and have no overall benefit against non-psi damage.
The last thing is simplicity. Despite my and other's liking for NC's complex skill system, Resist Psi makes matters of balancing your PSI skills and your other defences/offences a nightmare.
I think Dribble has pretty much hit the nail on the head.
I however, dont agree with the "difficulty" it would cause players with making thier setups, only that unless PSI modules are easier to cap, placing points in resist psi has to force down the % you have towards weapon/heal cap.
The other point, being made by giga was this:
You say that specing PSR will not effect self buffs.
However to spec PSR you have to remove points from PPU/MST/PPW
Removing points from these results in both:
-Less effective and slower casting buffs (lower damage %, freq and less pool to cast)
-Access only to lower levl buffs - IE spies and PEs currently carefully tweak their psi to get access to highest level buffs possible
Even if the nature and effectiveness of PPU spells changes, these points remain.
Also, what DJ said.
Ok - I think I get the point - sorry for that.
Yes, the PSR comes in charge and you will need points for that. Please understand - we want to add this extra option, we don't want to nerf players or reduce psi-abilities in general by adding this.
We have to discuss this internally - but my first opinion is: You can reach as a Monk a low/average PSR-Level without nerfing your specific psi-orientation (APU/PPU and Focussing).
As a Spy or a Private Eye this will become a little bit harder - but we have think about/discuss this ...
Please hold in mind: Nearly everything will be reviewed/balanced - not every feature holds a nerf! When the testserver comes up we can see absolutely clear which sideeffects takes place.
And one thing about the german forum: The "Resist PSI Skill Discussion" was not more or less "PRO" as it was in the english forum. We've said that we discuss things - not to implement features with the highest pro-percentage (please don't missunderstand this) in any case. This was a KK-Decision - we think this feature contents a good tactical orientation for every class and this was the reason we've stayed "PRO".
Again: Please wait with this for the testserver. How much this will take effect will be scaled then! If you decide to ignore this feature - NOTHING WILL CHANGE TO THE SITUATION AT THE MOMENT!
Thnx for clearing that up, I was mainly thinking from a PE/spy point of view since they have the least points to spare but i'll look forward to testing it and helping to sort out any problems.
Dribble Joy
05-06-06, 13:42
I'm not saying it won't work. What I am saying is that it will be very hard to get right, which while I'm not saying it's impossible, it does has a potential to end up horribly unbalanced.
[ edited - Sarcastic replies aren't helpful. If you can't behave in this forum I will exclude you from it. Stay constructive or just don't post ]
Deus Ex Machina
05-06-06, 14:54
I don't get some peoples problems with the PSI Resist Idea.
okay so let's assume we have the situation in which it is not implemented.
So we have a game without PSI resist - everyone is happy
now we add PSI resist to the situation - and change nothing else
what is the result? Some people suffer/benefit a little bit less from PSI effects. Some like this. Those that don't do not loose anything. But you can choose that you want a bit more advantage against monks for sacrificing a bit of the benefits you could get from them.
Seems like no problem to me, if you don't like it - don't spec it - nothing lost here. So where is the big problem?
I don't get some peoples problems with the PSI Resist Idea.
okay so let's assume we have the situation in which it is not implemented.
So we have a game without PSI resist - everyone is happy
now we add PSI resist to the situation - and change nothing else
what is the result? Some people suffer/benefit a little bit less from PSI effects. Some like this. Those that don't do not loose anything. But you can choose that you want a bit more advantage against monks for sacrificing a bit of the benefits you could get from them.
Seems like no problem to me, if you don't like it - don't spec it - nothing lost here. So where is the big problem? I agree with you here, but it still needs to be viable to spec it.
The subskill “Resist PSI” remains – but PSI damage will be removed. This subskill weakens effects caused by PSI influence (APU, PPU) and is only relevant for PvP combat.
Can we have an explaination of exactly how this will work please?
Weaken effects is a bit vague. Does this reduce damage on all spells for example?
If so, what will be the damage difference between poison/fire (damage per tick), against direct damage (force/energy)?
Will you be introducing resist psi armour for all classes, or just tanks?
Can we have an explaination of exactly how this will work please?
1) Weaken effects is a bit vague. Does this reduce damage on all spells for example?
2) If so, what will be the damage difference between poison/fire (damage per tick), against direct damage (force/energy)?
3) Will you be introducing resist psi armour for all classes, or just tanks?
1) It would reduce the dmg done by all spells by a certain percentage, and it will probably also reduce the affectiveness of foreign cast heals and shelters by that percentage
2) Total dmg done by one shot (regardless of DoT or direct dmg) will be reduced by the percentage
3) So far they have only mentioned the armor for tanks since they cannot spec resist psi, due to having 0 psi skill
Dribble Joy
05-06-06, 17:49
I think the way they might be going is that you have the choice between defence against psi and defence against other forms of attack (on top of your regular defences).
If they assume a mid way point, say 10% of psi points spent in resist psi (purely nominal value), as a balance between the two as a place to go from to balance the rest of things, you can then choose to lower it to increase your 'normal' defences and lower your psi defence, or vise versa.
Self defences from psi (shelter, heal, etc.), would have to be balanced with th rest of things given the mid point psi speccing.
I don't get some peoples problems with the PSI Resist Idea.
okay so let's assume we have the situation in which it is not implemented.
So we have a game without PSI resist - everyone is happy
now we add PSI resist to the situation - and change nothing else
what is the result? Some people suffer/benefit a little bit less from PSI effects. Some like this. Those that don't do not loose anything. But you can choose that you want a bit more advantage against monks for sacrificing a bit of the benefits you could get from them.
Seems like no problem to me, if you don't like it - don't spec it - nothing lost here. So where is the big problem?
As I said above and previously, there has to be a balance struck somewhere or speccing it or not speccing it will leave you disproportionately weak to the other, or balanced against one and disproportionately strong against another.
Honestly, it's nothing which we didn't already have in other places.
You want to use heavy weapons? Alas, you have to withdraw from other STR-skills, which quite often includes resist force. For a tank, no problem, for a PE already a bit more tricky.
Con also somehow follows those lines... you want to resist more of this or that? Or rather run faster? Now you got one more choice to make, resist psi or rather pack more psi?
I assume that it'll be painful for more of the setups we're currently used to, but i also assume that everybody will find both nice and evil changes to be done to the setup when the rebalance comes to the testserver.
As I said above and previously, there has to be a balance struck somewhere or speccing it or not speccing it will leave you disproportionately weak to the other, or balanced against one and disproportionately strong against another.
I agree, this certainly is a risk of the change. But, i think that's why it all is called balancing, the team can tinker around on this on the testserver and see how it works out... :)
I think it's not a good idea to add this skill PCR, it's really not needed. Now already an APU monk without support takes to much dmg trough piercing "spiders" and other stuff, the PPU is already nerfed so if you bring that skill it's just another MONK nerf.
Durandal|AI
06-06-06, 14:52
I think it's not a good idea to add this skill PCR, it's really not needed. Now already an APU monk without support takes to much dmg trough piercing "spiders" and other stuff, the PPU is already nerfed so if you bring that skill it's just another MONK nerf.
get a heavy def belt
skill the rest
stop whining
Dribble Joy
06-06-06, 16:02
I think it's not a good idea to add this skill PCR, it's really not needed. Now already an APU monk without support takes to much dmg trough piercing "spiders" and other stuff, the PPU is already nerfed so if you bring that skill it's just another MONK nerf.
You can make any comments of that sort without knowing the changes to the armours that will come about.
Apocalypsox
06-06-06, 16:31
I think it's not a good idea to add this skill PCR, it's really not needed. Now already an APU monk without support takes to much dmg trough piercing "spiders" and other stuff, the PPU is already nerfed so if you bring that skill it's just another MONK nerf.
long time coming. you should have seen it coming tbh. when a APU/PPU team that has some skill can drop an entire op war team, you better see the nerfing on the horizon.
you can spot monk fanboys from a mile away, your not getting any love
If the Focussing-Skill wont double as MST-equivalent and would not be needed for selfbuffing, (since no aim is needed to hit yourself) then PEs and Spys would have the points spec PSR and be able to buff themselfes.
Casting on others would be harder, but it would matter only for DB (looking at the current spells).
I think it's not a good idea to add this skill PCR, it's really not needed. Now already an APU monk without support takes to much dmg trough piercing "spiders" and other stuff, the PPU is already nerfed so if you bring that skill it's just another MONK nerf.
/disagree - the armour they wear can easily be modified to compensate. An APU using a capped APU module at the high end of the spectrum ( the opposite to where most pierce weapons are), will still have a horrific damage output.
Solo APUs rely on dealing more damage in a shorter time. They do it now, and will still continue to do so in the future. As long as armours etc are modified too ( which they are going to be) then the staus quo remains.
If the Focussing-Skill wont double as MST-equivalent and would not be needed for selfbuffing, (since no aim is needed to hit yourself) then PEs and Spys would have the points spec PSR and be able to buff themselfes.
Casting on others would be harder, but it would matter only for DB (looking at the current spells).
Agreed!
If the Focussing-Skill wont double as MST-equivalent and would not be needed for selfbuffing, (since no aim is needed to hit yourself) then PEs and Spys would have the points spec PSR and be able to buff themselfes.
Casting on others would be harder, but it would matter only for DB (looking at the current spells). that's a genius idea :)
This could also lead to some old school hyb setups, but they would be fawking hard to play with so bad aiming, so that would also be nice.
I’d like to provide some answers to questions and comments from both the German and English forums.
1)There was a comment that there should be a compensation for the loss of the tank’s Melee and Basic Resist Booster 1.
This loss will be compensated in other areas, if need be, new drugs with small negative effects could be implemented.
The negative effects (flash) for drugs and anti-drugs will be revisited and adjusted during the project anyways.
2) There were several questions concerning train points and experience points that could be lost when increasing or lowering main skill caps.
It is not planned to have any XP loss when the main skills are updated. There will probably a general train point release, allowing you to redistribute them with the new changes in mind.
3) Further questions concerned the future effects of damage boost and parashock modules.
In general, all Psi modules will be reworked.
The parashock modules will be adjusted to allow the victim to still be able to defend himself appropriately.
The damage boost module should no longer be a combat deciding factor.
A more detail look at those modules will be covered in a separate PPU discussion.
4) Another question concerned the effects of focusing on certain modules.
We see Focusing as a weakness, meaning that if the caster does not concentrate a 100%, it can lead to a lower damage output or even a higher power consumption.
It is not planned to block certain effects (i.e. HAB) partially or completely when focusing is not optimal.
5) Some posts covered the problem of „shitbuffing“.
We are working on a concept for this specific problem. Again, there will be details in the PPU discussion.
---
Furthermore we’d like to present Satty’s idea from the general weapon discussion thread and let you discuss it.
The concept works like this: (fictive values)
RC affects PC by 75% and HC by 25%
PC affects RC by 75% and HC by 15%
HC affects PC and RC by 50%
The general idea behind this is that a class that specializes in a specific weapon type, automatically gains a certain percentage of skill in other weapon areas.
This bonus to other weapon skills would not be cumulative with base skill, implants or drugs. The subskill Rifle Combat (R-C) gives a bonus to Pistol Combat (P-C), of say 50 skill points. This is an absolute value which only changes once the real skill (skill + implants + drugs) goes over a value of 50. Until then, any changes have no effect.
We would like to hear your opinions on this system and suggestions on how to weigh the different bonuses.
RC affects PC by 75% and HC by 25%
PC affects RC by 75% and HC by 15%
HC affects PC and RC by 50%
The general idea behind this is that a class that specializes in a specific weapon type, automatically gains a certain percentage of skill in other weapon areas.
This bonus to other weapon skills would not be cumulative with base skill, implants or drugs. The subskill Rifle Combat (R-C) gives a bonus to Pistol Combat (P-C), of say 50 skill points. This is an absolute value which only changes once the real skill (skill + implants + drugs) goes over a value of 50. Until then, any changes have no effect.
We would like to hear your opinions on this system and suggestions on how to weigh the different bonuses. hmm I'm a bit confused :confused:
So this means that once a pistol user reaches 100 base pistol combat, he should start speccing rifle combat up to 50 base points (point efficiency) , and he should have as much HC as possible?
I hope there's some very good mathematicians at KK, because your adding a lot of variables into the balancing equation.
EDIT: i'm not sure if it's a good or bad thing, but i'll just point it out.
erm sounds great to me, tho you should take into consideration that most pvp chars have around 170-180 skill with their main weapon, so the other one would go to about 135. if the bonus from hc and rc/pc would be cumulative a normal pe that guns a reveller will then have like 180 in his secondary skill.
that's why i'm still of the opinion only the highest skill should take effect on the lower ones :D
other from that it would really be nice, especially as riflers could use some low lvl rare pistols then, as their wpl could allow that :angel:
/edit just forgot, would it be possible to let tc affect pc to like 75 % then too? would give fullhackers the opportunity to at least pvm a lil outside of hacknet and have a basic defense against lower lvl players :D, mebbe something like that for rcl too, so a droner can use an appropriate sidearm ;)
The general Idea .. being that an expert rifleman should be able to use pistols better than a pure conster sounds good - I have to agree with GIGA though and therefor I am against this idea as I dont see how you are going to balance it - unless you remove the staged point-sys that we have on retail.
edith:
reading the idea again ...for a change, giga is wrong :p
A rifle user would still be best off speccing everything into RC and NOT putting points into PC/HC after he hits 100 rc .. as the effects do not add up - he'll get the RC bonus through HC/PC ..but it wont make any difference, as he's past that point already.
75% - being a fictive value.. meh knows- is far too much tho' ..I dont want to see rifly/pistol hybrids being a viable option :)
as long as its a minor side effect and it really doesnt add/stack etc... thats a cool idea.
hmm I'm a bit confused :confused:
So this means that once a pistol user reaches 100 base pistol combat, he should start speccing rifle combat up to 50 base points (point efficiency) , and he should have as much HC as possible?
I hope there's some very good mathematicians at KK, because your adding a lot of variables into the balancing equation.
EDIT: i'm not sure if it's a good or bad thing, but i'll just point it out.
It means, If you have 200 Hc you'll effectively have 150 RC and PC, (which is rather smart when you think about it, "Yeah I can use this massive cannon, but this pea shooters wayyy out of my league")
As long as it doesn't unbalance pvp it'll be fine :) I like the idea of having a tank with a CS and maybe a liberator or wyatt just for show! and a bit of a laugh when your fighting a noob :D
Furthermore we’d like to present Satty’s idea from the general weapon discussion thread and let you discuss it.
The concept works like this: (fictive values)
RC affects PC by 75% and HC by 25%
PC affects RC by 75% and HC by 15%
HC affects PC and RC by 50%
real good idea. the bonus should be enough to gun the lower level VHC - i think as high as the armed hovercraft.
it helps to use the low level anti vhc guns.
if this goes live its time to havethe VHC balancing soon :)
RC affects PC by 75% and HC by 25%
PC affects RC by 75% and HC by 15%
HC affects PC and RC by 50%
HOW FUCKIGN STUPID, Sorry but this is the most mental insane idea ever!!
my 2 cence"
...Sorry but this is the most mental insane idea ever...
because ......
like the psi resist thing - if there where 200 posts like that and only 20 that use that "yes, because..." they take the yes option because they used the right arguments.
ok, No because it would throw the whole game out of balance, and not to mention overpower PE's , and i think a few Tanks!
reading the idea again ...for a change, giga is wrong :p
A rifle user would still be best off speccing everything into RC and NOT putting points into PC/HC after he hits 100 rc .. as the effects do not add up - he'll get the RC bonus through HC/PC ..but it wont make any difference, as he's past that point already.
75% - being a fictive value.. meh knows- is far too much tho' ..I dont want to see rifly/pistol hybrids being a viable option :)
as long as its a minor side effect and it really doesnt add/stack etc... thats a cool idea. I still don't understand. Does it means that if you spec enough rifle, you don't get any bonus from speccing pistol?
Reading the original German thread, I think what you get is this:
You spec RC = 100, will give you PC = 75
You wont get any extra PC, until you spec more than 75 PC, so speccing 50 PC and 100 RC, you will end up with 100 RC, and 75 PC, and your 50 points spent in PC will just be wasted.
You will also get HC = 25, because of the bonus from RC on that skill.
If you spec RC = 100, and PC = 80, you will end up with skill like RC = 100 and PC = 80, because you specced more PC than the bonus from RC.
Again you will end up with HC = 25, because of RC points.
If you have RC = 100, you need to put more than 200 in to HC to get a bonus to RC, and the 100 points in RC will be wasted if you do that, because they will give nothing that you didnt already get from HC.
It makes sense that you would know something about other similar weapons, but if it is a good idea I dont know.
this is potentially an amazing idea.
For my approval(and probably many others) I would like to see:
-Fictive meaning not actually added to the skill that shows for requirements but affects the players capability of capping the weapon (ex. weapon lore)... sorry if i'm saying what you actually meant by it i just didn't necessarily understand the wording.
-Also, this would be amazing for the case in a PE, with the exception that they should have an even lesser reach towards high end weapons because they're trading that for versatility.
-Maybe the percentages should be lowered more... in the case of adding to a different skill than the one specced in. I want to see differing setups and not one "optimal" one. make people specialize to a point.
Apocalypsox
08-06-06, 00:38
fuck this rifle affecting pistol idea. hell no. i dont wanna spec 180 rifle and 10 pistol and be a pistol spy. and it will TOTALLY OVERPOWER SPIES!!!!!!!
*can see himself unloading an FL clip then switching to slasher and then to dissy and then to exec*
fuck this rifle affecting pistol idea. hell no. i dont wanna spec 180 rifle and 10 pistol and be a pistol spy. and it will TOTALLY OVERPOWER SPIES!!!!!!!
*can see himself unloading an FL clip then switching to slasher and then to dissy and then to exec*
"This bonus to other weapon skills would not be cumulative with base skill, implants or drugs."
pretty much says that you'll still need the skill points to use w/e weapon, but you'll just do better with it.
so saying that 25% of w/e your rifle skill is is added to your pistol in an invisible form then you'd still have to have alot of pistol to do well with high end ones, because your 180 rifle would only give you an invisible 45 points, which is enough to cap both weapon classes, but when you throw in T-C and agility into the mix, you've got nothing to worry about.
"This bonus to other weapon skills would not be cumulative with base skill, implants or drugs."
pretty much says that you'll still need the skill points to use w/e weapon, but you'll just do better with it.
so saying that 25% of w/e your rifle skill is is added to your pistol in an invisible form then you'd still have to have alot of pistol to do well with high end ones, because your 180 rifle would only give you an invisible 45 points, which is enough to cap both weapon classes, but when you throw in T-C and agility into the mix, you've got nothing to worry about.
you didnt get it either :D
..you wont do ANY better .. all this does is allowing a dedicated rifle user to use low-end pistols as well ...or on the other hand an expert rifleman to use TL3-TL50 pistols without speccing points :)
If you spec an additional 30pts to pistol, you wont be able to use TL55 pistols -- as the 50 bonus is still higher than the 30 pts you specced .. leaving you with a total of 50 points. It's not being "added" ..thats the whole point.
All it says is ..anyone who is good with rifles will automaticly be able to use low-end pistols as well. vice versa... its only the low end tho ... j4f!
erm with the stats mentionedit allows an expert rifle user to use an xbow :p
75% of the rc 180 would be pc 135
unless you calculate from base ofc.
tho i think if a riflespy could switch to a tl 92 or the like it wouldn't overpower him, but mebbe just add a lil extra touch. tho i don't play a combat spy, that's why i don't know it.
and hopefully the hc and rc buni are not cumulative as it would overpower pes tremendously
fuck this rifle affecting pistol idea. hell no. i dont wanna spec 180 rifle and 10 pistol and be a pistol spy. and it will TOTALLY OVERPOWER SPIES!!!!!!!
*can see himself unloading an FL clip then switching to slasher and then to dissy and then to exec*
If you spec 180 rifle, you'll get 135 pistol. If you put 10 skill points in pistol then, you'll end up with... 135 pistol. You just wasted 10 points. If you put 135 points into pistol, you'll end up with... 135 pistol.
In order to get 180 on both weapon types... you'll need to put 180 in both.
well if bonusses from hc and rc add up then you just need 90 hc to have both 180 rifle and pistol. that was panthos point if i got it right. (and that needs to be sorted out)
Night Hunter
08-06-06, 02:00
-Maybe the percentages should be lowered more... in the case of adding to a different skill than the one specced in. I want to see differing setups and not one "optimal" one. make people specialize to a point.
I agree with this. Closer to 50% and 20% would be more reasonble, unless of course we all want to be running around with 200 points (easy to work % on this) specialisation in one area such as RC and still be able to use absolutely ALL pistols (75% of 200 = lvl 150 PC) and a fair amount of HC weapons (25% of 200=lvl 50 HC) etc. So he would have absolutely no need what so ever to put points in to PC!! Unless he had a further 151pts to spend including the impant bonuses and this would only get him a single extra point of value in his PC skill!!!??? This isn't a "bonus" this is a complete replacement of the PC skill! :(
At the very least a character with no real points in PC should not be allowed to just pick up and start using the higher end pistols!! :eek:
The other option would be to put a cap on the so called bonus affect, for example a maximum affect of 75pts on PC and 50pts on HC (just random lower end numbers suggested) this would allow a skilled sniper some skill with other guns while not replacing the need to LOM if he actually wants to change his character to use all pistols. It would also allow new players to try different gun styles as they level and come to understand the game, rather than delete the sniper cause they cant be bothered to LOM to PC.
Personally I'd like to see the classes become more dependant on each other to encourage interaction and reduce solo game play while not making this impossible. I guess my point is that a lot of what I'm reading here seems to enourage speciallisation and strength in one area but in doing so the developers are also helping to compensate for the weaknesses this would create. Thats not balance thats tipping the scales higher! This sounds more like power gaming than using intelligent team compositions! :confused:
Surely the whole point of specialising in Rifles is to be a sniper?? :confused: Not an all round combat pawn monster? Of course, if you offer me this option I will accept it just like any other self respecting greedy power gamer who wants their character to be capable of every combat action conceivable!!! :D But this is not making the game very fair and balanced unless you take the individualism away from each class. :(
Hey, why not just scrap PC, RC, HC (and maybe TC) and just have an ability called GUNS??? It sound like that's what is being suggested. :rolleyes:
fuck this rifle affecting pistol idea. hell no. i dont wanna spec 180 rifle and 10 pistol and be a pistol spy. and it will TOTALLY OVERPOWER SPIES!!!!!!!
*can see himself unloading an FL clip then switching to slasher and then to dissy and then to exec*
Damn it! you've got a point what with them having so much DEX. I play spies and will now shut up ;)
Seriously, this would be of great benefit to my characters from a power point of view but would make the game dull, using balance as a excuse. I dont want to do what a PE, tank or Monk can, I want to play a rifle spy! Not Arnie or Rambo picking up any gun I choose.
I think I actually agree with that guy from FETISH on this one, hopefully a little more constructively though :p Love you Panthos, please dont kill me :( (scroll up if you want to read it, I've already quoted and ranted too long)
i just understood what was being said about the "The subskill Rifle Combat (R-C) gives a bonus to Pistol Combat (P-C), of say 50 skill points." as an absolute value that remains unchanged until it is replaced by a higher base+implant+drug skill.
and my suggestion to this would be... lets say its a 50 point absolute value, lets make it add on instead as that many skill points. such as if the character had 50 base points, and then they would have 75 in that skill. or if they had 95 base points to start they'd end up with 107 points after bonus. i'd rather it was lower than 50 points absolute but either way it would be a great way to allow characters with high level weapons in one catagory an easier way to use mid range weapons in another... which would be fun and generally unnecessary.
what you prpose would actually just lead to everyone speccing hc to capp their pistols/rifles whcih would lead to overpowered pes :p
well if bonusses from hc and rc add up then you just need 90 hc to have both 180 rifle and pistol. that was panthos point if i got it right. (and that needs to be sorted out)
Give the Mana bones :)
what you prpose would actually just lead to everyone speccing hc to capp their pistols/rifles whcih would lead to overpowered pes :p
they were already suggesting a cap at which this "bonus" works.
If you wanted to reach 100 RC and 100 PC, by putting points in to HC, you would need to spec 200 HC.
The 100 points from HC would not be added to RC and PC.
If you spec 200 HC, 90 RC, 90 PC, you would only have 200 HC, 100 PC and 100 RC. The 90 skill you put into RC and PC would be a waste of points.
If you get 200 HC, 101 RC and 90 PC, you would have 200 HC 101 RC and 100 PC. The points in PC would still be wasted, because you already get a higher value from your HC.
You will not be able to spec a little RC and PC, and spec a lot of HC, to be able to cap all 3 different weapontypes.
*cough* your missing my point entirely
180 rc gives you 135 pc
90 hc gives you 45 pc
if these add up you'll have 180 pc and nowhere did anyone say that the boni don't add upp, everything was about bonus+imps/spent points don't add.
This wouldn't accommodate for pure PC/RC tanks skilling their dext purely that, while wanting to keep their HC or MC setup to use Cannons or Melee weapons as well, or other hybrids. :p
Personally I would rather things stay as they were, mainly because I want to see the current balancing within less than 10 years, without them spending 5 years trying to add this and get it right, but also because it would stop you being GOOD hybrids in some cases, simply because most of skills points you assigned where you wanted them to be will be ignored.
Instead of combat bonuses, I would rather see other (passive) increases, either class related or in general. For example, a Spy would get an agility/athletics increase for speccing certain things. (pointing out yet again, that Spies are supposed to be the most agile class without stuffing their face full of drugs, yet it seems to still be frigging ignored).
I've finally understood it, but i'm not sure what it will accomplish. There's no way in a million years a rifle user with 180 rifle would switch to use a pistol with only 135 pistol combat.
I think it should be like this:
RC gives you 85% bonus to PC, 50% to HC
PC gives you 85% bonus to RC, 50% to HC
HC gives you 70% bonus to PC, 70% bonus to RC
Maybe this rule should only apply to PEs, to help them be true JOATs
*cough* your missing my point entirely
180 rc gives you 135 pc
90 hc gives you 45 pc
if these add up you'll have 180 pc and nowhere did anyone say that the boni don't add upp, everything was about bonus+imps/spent points don't add.
They said the value was absolute. That means the two bonuses won't add up with each other. In your case, you'd only still have 135 PC, NOT 180.
Absolute means no matter what, it will not change. The only way to get a higher skill than the absolute bonus, is to legitimately spec more than the absolute amount.
I personally would rather follow the approach where skillpoints are not "wasted" by overriding them.
In principle for example PC would look like this:
effective PC = skilled PC + (skilled RC /4) + (skilled HC / 4)
Numbers may still need adjustment. For sure, the bonus would have to be noticeably smaller than in what the team presented yet.
Hmm, seems like I'm pretty "late" in regard to the PSI Resist discussion. Anyway, I wanted to add my 2 cents to this:
I don't think it's good if PSI resist affects everything coming from PSI monks. Why? Because all the damage dealing psi modules are handled by their respective resists already, means a fire beam goes through fire resist, energy spe... err, psi modules :p, go through energy resist and so on. It would be just wrong to let them go through PSI resist AND any other resist.
However, everything which "manipulates" another character, be it a damage boost, a freeze effect, buffs and debuffs, they all have no inherent resist and could be handled by this psi resist. Let's use the name "psi manipulation resist" to distinct it from the original "psi resist".
How this will affect such manipulation is open to discussion, because many "on-off"-effects have to be transformed into something which can be scaled, be it either in power, time, or something else.
What I see as a problem here are the non-psi sources which result in similar effects. How will they be countered? Freezer weapons is one of the things which comes into my mind here. Should this "psi manipulation resist" cover such cases, too? It would result in some kind of "manipulation resist".
Some other things:
The idea about skills influencing others: I'm not so sure if it is a good idea. It's probably fun to fool around with "close by" weapons, but it may have an impact we can't forsee, yet. In a revamp like this we should try to eliminate such complexities, instead of adding new ones which we may stumble over later. Besides, aside of the "toy" factor, what does it really add?
While we are at it, will there be a similar thing for tradeskills then as well? What does it change?
"The damage boost module should no longer be a combat deciding factor." I've read similar things many times, regardless for whatever "overpowered" thing it was. The results are simple: Either you have it ingame and it has an impact on combat or you remove it. Things which don't have any real impact on combat won't be used, why keep them ingame then?
Anyway, these are just some thoughts which came to my mind (cross-)reading all this. I'm curious about how this will look in the end!
Dribble Joy
08-06-06, 14:44
"The damage boost module should no longer be a combat deciding factor." I've read similar things many times, regardless for whatever "overpowered" thing it was. The results are simple: Either you have it ingame and it has an impact on combat or you remove it. Things which don't have any real impact on combat won't be used, why keep them ingame then?
DB is a wierd thing.
If you take it into consideration when balancing solo PvP, it's fine untill you then scale it up to team PvP.
A low tech PE or melee/heavy PE might be 'balanced' to need DB solo, and for the solo arena that's perfectly fine.
The problem then is when that PE goes to a team environment, all the other players then benefit from the DB, though they were balanced without it, the PE is balanced with it, so comparitively he has lost out.
It's a lot simpler to remove DB from the combat classes entirely and balance them without it, give DB to PPUs (as a high levelish spell - out of hybrid hands) so that in the team environment all people benefit equally.
As to this whole HC/RC/PC thing, it's fine as long as it's non-cummulative.
It's a lot simpler to remove DB from the combat classes entirely and balance them without it, give DB to PPUs (as a high levelish spell - out of hybrid hands) so that in the team environment all people benefit equally.
sounds reasonable..balancing db with combat classes is quite hard, since there are antidrugs too .. so if you say one class needs to have his target db'ed to make the damage it is supposed to, this class will do less damage than it should when facing opponents with enough anti drugs in their qb.
I like your idea.
1) It would reduce the dmg done by all spells by a certain percentage, and it will probably also reduce the affectiveness of foreign cast heals and shelters by that percentage
2) Total dmg done by one shot (regardless of DoT or direct dmg) will be reduced by the percentage
3) So far they have only mentioned the armor for tanks since they cannot spec resist psi, due to having 0 psi skill
Where has this info come from to answer 1 and 2?
Plus as Darkana stated, if this is going to reduce only damage, what about the rest of the effects?
Will someone in KK please confirm this.
Where has this info come from to answer 1 and 2?
wtf ^^
it's common sense, that's how resists work, they reduce the dmg done by a certain %.
erm ...
I seem to be missing the point bigstyle here. (re the HC/RC/PC linked bonuses)
Why on earth would I want to have the abiltity to switch to a half-arsed nib level secondary weapon class ?
I seem to be missing the point bigstyle here. (re the HC/RC/PC linked bonuses)
Why on earth would I want to have the abiltity to switch to a half-arsed nib level secondary weapon class ?
It's an option. Nobody forces you to use it, but there are people who'd appreciate this gadget.
Carnage in the german forums stated that they decided to take a look into it as it would be quite easy to implement. So, little effort to make people who like to use it happy. Good deal in my eyes.
Thanks for not answering the question. Very helpful. :rolleyes:
It would probably also be very easy to implement a placeable medkit as an item of furniture that responded "I'm a little pixie !" when you click on it.
I wouldn't be forced to use that either.
Strikes me as being equally as useful.
So ... I ask again :- WHY would this cross-skilling bonus be, in any way, worthwhile ?
i think the only thing worthwhile there is that a rifler / pistoleer could now drive combat vehicles without needing to spec hc.
apart from that it's more a question of style than of efficiency
yay with better pas maybee we will see some tanks running around in pas now woot woot i missed that
erm ...
I seem to be missing the point bigstyle here. (re the HC/RC/PC linked bonuses)
Why on earth would I want to have the abiltity to switch to a half-arsed nib level secondary weapon class ?
The idea behind this is that an experienced rifle user can also use pistols in some way except for pistols that needs special training. This would also count for cannon users who would be able to use low level rifles. It is indeed more a goodie but easy to implement and enriches the gameplay. And of course you do not have any negative consequences out of this. Either you use it or not, it depends on your play style.
OK - that's more or less what I thought.
"Serves no real purpose, but it's easy to do, so why not ?"
:angel:
I've finally understood it, but i'm not sure what it will accomplish. There's no way in a million years a rifle user with 180 rifle would switch to use a pistol with only 135 pistol combat.
Dunno if anyones replied to that bit yet, but if we switch the figures around, giving PC a fairly high value and getting the bonii on the RC skills, it makes a good PvP setup ( Face it pistols are where it's at for the way we PvP in neocron), but it also makes a viable PvM long range hunting setup ( provided pistols ranges are brought into line as expected.
He's able to enjoy the aim of a pistol while moving (which will most likely still be superior to a rifle), but also has the ability to take a few snipe shots if that suits his playstyle.
I doubt it would affect setups to any great degree, and presents itself asa quite a nice option to have, should you be so inclined.
I can howver, not see the point in either rifle, or PC bonii on a HC character, as they don't really spec a lot of weapon lore.
I'm sure a high amount of HC could be made to add a higher bonus to Weapon Lore, since they're saying it's easy to implement. :) I think the main thing that needs to be done is an option for these bonuses to be enabled or not, otherwise certain hybrid combat se