View Full Version : General Weapon Discussion
Edit: This relates to how we think the weapons should be categorized, not the current state
We would like to discuss a few weapon balance issues now.
Below is a list of weapon types, showing how we consider the damage output of these weapon types (highest to lowest). The damage output is the amount of damage over a certain period of time. For example, long range low-tech rifles like sniper rifles deal a lot of damage per shot, but their overall damage output is one of the lowest because of the advantage provided by their very long range.
Weapon Damage Output
1. APU
2. Melee
3. Cannons
4. Pistols
5. Rifles
Within these categories, other factors influence the damage output. In example weapons with a short range will do more damage than weapons with a longer range. On that note, most weapon ranges will also be re-evaluated, mostly for weapons that are supposed to have a short range, but do currently have pretty long ranges.
Drone damage is derived from the corresponding weapon type, i.e. MG drones have a damage output similar to a low-tech automatic rifle. The Kamikaze drone is a special type, it is way up on the damage chart.
Hand grenades are not on the list, they are currently tied to the heavy combat skill, but really not that useful. We'd like to improve them and maybe also revise the usage restrictions.
Single "Shot" Damage
1. APU
2. Cannons
3. Melee
4. Rifles
5. Pistols
Of course there will be exceptions within this list, i.e. Sniper Rifles will deal more damage per shot than other rifles, as they have a very low firing frequency.
Range
1. Rifles (1000)
2. Cannons (750)
3. APU (500)
4. Pistols (300)
5. Melee
The range units in parentheses do not correspond to meters, but rather serve to express the differences in ranges. Rifles should cover the complete visual range, but cannons shouldn't. Furthermore, those values would be the maximum for each weapon type, i.e. not all rifles should be able to cover the complete visual range. Again, specific weapons will have different properties, i.e. shotguns will have a pistol-like range.
The range of APU spells will be decreased in general, while PPU spells will most likely keep their range.
Firing Frequency
1. Pistols (120 Shots/Min.)
2. Rifles (90 Shots /Min.)
3. APU (60 Casts/Min.)
4. Melee (60 Hits/Min.)
5. Cannons (40 Shots /Min.)
The shots/min value again represents the maximal limit for each weapon type. Furthermore, this value represents the number of shots, the number of times the trigger is pulled. For burst weapons, each "shot" releases 3 or 4 bullets, multiplying the frequency value - i.e. a gatling rifle with 90 shots/min and 4 bullets per shot would have a frequency of 360.
Aim Speed
1. APU
2. Pistol
3. Rifle
4. Cannon
Ammo Capacity
1. Pistols (20)
2. Rifles (16)
3. Cannons (12)
The value in parentheses represents the maximal magazine size for single shot weapons. For dual shot or burst weapons, the magazines would be bigger. However, the advantage these weapons provide through multiple bullets per shot would be countered by restricting the number of "shots" per magazine compared to single shot weapons.
Psi and Stamina Usage
The Psi usage for APU modules will be adjusted to the somewhat lowered cast frequency and furthermore slightly increased in general. The usage for PPU modules should remain unchanged in general.
The stamina usage for melee weapons will also be adjusted to the somewhat lowered hit frequency and will also be slightly increased.
Lastly, the weapon properties by weapon type:
Cannons:
- High damage output
- Very high damage per shot
- High range
- Lowest firing frequency
- Slowest aim speed
- Lowest magazine size
Rifles:
- Low damage output
- Medium damage per shot
- Highest range
- High firing frequency
- Medium aim speed
- Medium magazine size
Pistols:
- Low damage output
- Low damage per shot
- Low range
- Highest firing frequency
- Fastest aim speed
- Highest magazine size
Melee:
- High damage output
- Medium damage per hit
- Lowest range
- Medium hit frequency
- No aim required
- Slightly increased stamina usage
APU:
- Highest damage output
- Highest damage per hit
- Medium range
- Medium cast frequency
- Fastest aim
- Slightly increased Psi usage
As always, comments, objections and suggestions are welcome.
Bugs Gunny
19-05-06, 15:06
From what i can read here i've decided my main chars will be an apu and a melee/hc hybrid tank that overcomes the range issue by using speedgat.
We all know that range is an amazing overpowered advantage for rifle users, hell when people snipe they are so far away nobody sees them...... (sarcasm)
When will KK give up this fals idea of rifle users having a rangeadvantage?
It takes 3 seconds for an apu to bridge the rangegap between a rifle and a HL. Rifler has reload and small clip.
[ edited ]
Erm, generally looks quite good. Through the first few lines, it looks like cannons are going to be really uber, then they get smacked around at the end.
Two points - in the final summary, you state that both APU and Pistols have the "fastest aim speed" - do you mean they will both be equal in aim speed or was that an error?
Secondly, rifles still look like they are just going to be plain less useful than pistols, as they are at the moment. Sure, sniping becomes its own thing. but it doesn't make up for rifles not being competetive. At the moment pistols aim easier, have a higher damage output and need reloading less...
[ edited ]
It looks like Reakktor think monk-o-cron is fine, and the game being unbalanced is fine.
Rifles:
- Low damage output
- Medium damage per shot
- Highest range
- High firing frequency
- Medium aim speed
- Medium magazine size
Pistols:
- Low damage output
- Low damage per shot
- Low range
- Highest firing frequency
- Fastest aim speed
- Highest magazine size
APU:
- Highest damage output
- Highest damage per hit
- Medium range
- Medium cast frequency
- Fastest aim
- Slightly increased Psi usage
Looking at that, APU's will be basically the same, whereas Rifle and Pistol users will be totally screwed over.
In my experience range very rarely counts for anything in pvp. The majority of it is close up in your face furballing. That's the main weakness I can see. The way it's set out categorises what weapon for what playstyle.
Pistol Spies/Monks for PvP (No change there).
Rifle spies and HC Tanks for PvM
Melee users will most probably be an intermediate.
I can't see these changes having much of an effect in relation to what we have now. Probably because it's still only on paper. I have every belief things will become more promising once these ideas hit the test server and recieve some tweaking. As it stands now though, I'm a little skeptical.
Pistols, since god knows when have always been intended for close range, no one has ever made the call to patch that intention in, so I'd rather not count pistols as a proposed change, more an implimentation of a change that was promised way back.
Clip size, regardless of how big or small it is is another killer, a slow mover ( say a HC tank with a weapon out) whether he be in PvM or PvP, is still at a disadvantage. A smaller clip regardless of damage is a debilitator. Shots will miss, and a pistol spy with a huge clip is always going to have more room for error there. Especially if the tank gets 8 or 9 good shots out before a reload ( of around 3 seconds) in the time that reload is occuring, his damage output falls to zero. It doesn't matter how much potential damage he can do. The opponent has the oppurtunity to land a half clip into him.
1 reload every 20 shots ( with the ability to maintain a high speed for dodging) is always going to be better than 1 in 12 with a low chance of dodging. Of course this is entirely from a tank point of view.
I also see, that as usual, monk damage is highest. Output is highest, range is more than plenty and aim is perfect.
If I may, I'd probably ask for the current system to be tested alongside the proposed system, on a public test server.
Summary, on paper, I can't see this solving any of the problems we have now. Merely swapping them around.
As a sidenote, not only do monks have no clip restrictions, they also have the majority of DoT spells. It doesn't matter if they miss occasionally ( which they won't thanks to point and click) the damage still sticks.
I call for more DoT weapons elsewhere.
Looking at that, APU's will be basically the same, whereas Rifle and Pistol users will be totally screwed over.
Unfortunately i have to fully agree to your analysis here. :(
Considering that damage over time is the very one most deciding factor in most games of this kind (both MMORPG and FPS, with accuracy mattering somewhat in FPS) and some weapons falling badly short in this aspect, i feel that those weapons won't see much use in the future of the game.
Range in theory might be nice and useful, within the current setup of the game it matters little. (Indoors you never have any "long" distance, anyways. And if you have, hide behind a corner, make the enemy come to you. In the wastelands, you usually have hills, canyons and holes in the ground to take cover in, so even there the range advantage of a rifle can be countered. )
I am sorry, but for a sound and solid concept, the damage output of all weapon classes should be adequate. Rifles and heavy weapons pay for their range advantage by lower movement speed, melee and pistols have to use brains to get to the enemy without being shredded while charging the enemy.
Small differences in target acquisition speed are acceptable, heavy weapons also compensate by their area of effect. (Close only counts in horseshoes and grenades, after all... ;) )
If weapons are able to compete in damage output, the "smaller differences" like firing speed, range, clip size, movement speed, area of effect and cool appearance can influence the choice of a player. If weapon damage (over time, if they can't kill with one shot) differs a lot, people will still see themself forced to prefer one kind of weapons over all others.
I believe - although I'd need thanatos to confirm this - that this was written with the idea that APU spells now have a reticle. So the "point and click" and "perfect aim" arguments are no longer valid (note the comment about how Melee doesnt have aim but APU does). To address the coment about how all weapons should be equal in damage output - well actually no. Because the classes using them will have differnt levels of defence.
The point about how range isn't that important is however, very true. Better range does not compensate for the fact that rifles come last on near lsat in pretty much every other area. It doesn't even come close, sorry.
I'm intrigued however by the propostion that tanks should both be the toughest class and also the class doing the most damage short of monks. What exactly are the weak damage, weak resistance spies meant to do apart from be fast? Or will the nano-toys offer some huge advantages that means spies need to be weak otherwise?
If weapon damage (over time, if they can't kill with one shot) differs a lot, people will still see themself forced to prefer one kind of weapons over all others.This is the reason monk-o-cron exists. APU spells generally do insane damage compared to other classes, even when the spells are uncapped. As mentioned, range has very little effect on gameplay. The only way someone with common sense can be killed at range is if they're not seeing their health drop (this happened to me yesterday at Simmons, I died from a couple of Silent Hunter shots before actually seeing my health drop), or they're just standing still not paying attention.
There's also another thing that makes the "range" advantage for Rifle Spies totally and utterly useless. Either the weather, which isn't the same for everyone at the same time, it appears to be quite random. Then there are the swirlies. Any bonus you had from being at long range and unseen is totally reversed when you get out any rare rifle apart from the Silent Hunter. The big coloured swirly gives away your position instantly.
A lot of the weapons are also STILL bugged, Silent Hunter/Healing Light do lag damage at range, the Healing Light laserbeam is generally unseen at range. Raygun weapons are even worse, on a standing still target, it seems to be somewhat fine, but on a moving target, the damage is extremely minimal. I could go on, but I think we already know the picture, or at least the community does.
although I'd need thanatos to confirm this - that this was written with the idea that APU spells now have a reticle. So the "point and click" and "perfect aim" arguments are no longer validFrom what's been said, this reticle will close faster than a capped pistol reticle (and bear in mind APU spells will have longer range than pistols, which means at short range, they should close very fast), so they still get the bigger advantage. It will be almost as if they have no reticle, because even when the reticle isn't completely locked on, as seen with other weapons, you can still hit the target. Hopefully they might change this.
Edit: Speaking of reticles, this is a bit off topic, but wouldn't it be nice if we could use custom reticles? If small customizations were allowed, I think extra people might come back just to be able to change the RPOS images, and such. It would please a lot of people. Even if we're only allowed to use replacement files issued by Reakktor themselves... would be nice.
I believe - although I'd need thanatos to confirm this - that this was written with the idea that APU spells now have a reticle. So the "point and click" and "perfect aim" arguments are no longer valid (note the comment about how Melee doesnt have aim but APU does). To address the coment about how all weapons should be equal in damage output - well actually no. Because the classes using them will have differnt levels of defence.
100% agree, I'm never good at conveying ideas, but the way I see it ( purely as a tank mind you!) It doesn't matter how much health or defence you have. As it stands, inside half a high end pistol clip is between 150 to 300 damage to HP ( depending on mods and target stats) The ability to plant that on something that reloads more than you ( therefore making himself a non Damage dealer for up to 3 seconds) and also a slower target ( so less chance of a miss) is still a nasty thought. On paper, I can agree yeah - a lot of punishment can be taken.
I don't know how healing or S/D would work in the new system either, but even a tanks high damage would be severely snubbed by these effects. Sure, a lot of it is paranoia but I can't help but worry this update only serves to slide the balance even further askew.
The point about how range isn't that important is however, very true. Better range does not compensate for the fact that rifles come last on near lsat in pretty much every other area. It doesn't even come close, sorry.
I can see them becoming purely PvE tools.
I'm intrigued however by the propostion that tanks should both be the toughest class and also the class doing the most damage short of monks. What exactly are the weak damage, weak resistance spies meant to do apart from be fast? Or will the nano-toys offer some huge advantages that means spies need to be weak otherwise?
I'm one of the guys who believes the ability to dodge, stealth, and S/D goes a long way to keeping the PE and the Spy alive. But I do agree that with the tank having a high damage/high Defence setup, those nano skills are going to be important.
I also will agree that my argument in most senses is knackered as it speaks purely from a tanks point of view. Not that I want some kind of tank-o-cron. I just think that short of a clip size issue and thier runspeed malus, a tank is well balanced as is. Making any changes elsewhere mucks that up!
But with that thinking, there will only ever be one balanced class at any one time. That leaves one fucked up class and two others. One of which is viable ( for now) the other, nearly identical, just with lower end caps and a bit of Psi chucked in.
Yes. My opinion is flawed seven ways from sunday :P
EDIT
And for the love of god - Public test servers.
Having staff test it and think it's fine, is a world apart from having people who will use this system day in day out testing it and realising that in fact, no. It's not fine.
I'd hope that in any future incarnation of Neocron, that the effect of S/D and other psi effects was somewhat reduced from their current state. I certainly seem to recall that the outcome of the character claass discsussions was that a solo tank should be more resistant than the other classes taking into account self buffs.
I'd agree with your Spermy that movement and aiming are significant factors, despite what DJ has to say to the contrary. Of course, this all ties into the "skill gradient" debate -I think perhaps I should make a thread to explain what I mean by that and why it is in fact a critical issue.
The fact that APU weapons look again very strong doesnt overly concern me when the plans are also to make APUs rather vulnerable and to level the playing field with regaruds to PPU effects. Perhaps APU range should be shorter however.
Overall my message is the same as I have been preaching throughout - none of these issues can be looked at in isoation. Perhaps you can look at one weapon in this list and say that "that is clearly the best". But remember what class has to use it and maybe that class won't necissarily be the best. Rifles will be a dead weapon type though if this goes through.
Dribble Joy
19-05-06, 16:18
Weapon Damage Output
1. APU
2. Melee
3. Cannons
4. Pistols
5. Rifles
Pistols should do less than rifles. Pistol users are much more up close and would have better defences, riflers would be weaker. Thus rifles would do more damage and pistols would do less to maintain the offence/defence ratio.
Single "Shot" Damage
1. APU
2. Cannons
3. Melee
4. Rifles
5. Pistols
Not so much an issue if the overall dmg/time remains the correct amount.
Range
1. Rifles (1000)
2. Cannons (750)
3. APU (500)
4. Pistols (300)
5. Melee
Yup.
Firing Frequency
1. Pistols (120 Shots/Min.)
2. Rifles (90 Shots /Min.)
3. APU (60 Casts/Min.)
4. Melee (60 Hits/Min.)
5. Cannons (40 Shots /Min.)
I think burst freq cap should be dependant on weapon type, not just on pistol/rifle/heavy/etc.
Aim Speed
1. APU
2. Pistol
3. Rifle
4. Cannon
This I am not sure about. I think keeping the aim speed at aiming cap consistant across weapon systems would create a fairer system.
Ammo Capacity
1. Pistols (20)
2. Rifles (16)
3. Cannons (12)
I'm thinking that the proportion of time spent firing and reloading being equal across weapons systems would be fairer, though the overall dmg/time value is more important.
Apocalypsox
19-05-06, 16:30
hmm...i think rifles need some revisions...they currently have no advantages in any area, due to the current issue of zone size and sight range (the fact you cant see farther than 500m, no matter what you do)
Pistols should do less than rifles. Pistol users are much more up close and would have better defences, riflers would be weaker. Thus rifles would do more damage and pistols would do less to maintain the offence/defence ratio.
Now... yes. If you explain to me, how pistols should add up to defence in the game?
Within current game mechannics, weapons are purely offensive tools. I up to now didn't see my health or fire resist for example increase due to packing a specific weapon.
@apocalypsox ya that's true, aiming at targets out of sight is ok when hunting mobs, but totally unacceptable for fast moving pvp, this renders the range advantage of rifles totally useless
@sylow, you're faster meaning your hit less when using a pistol, tho that is no stat it does make a difference in your dmg input to say so
Dribble Joy
19-05-06, 16:55
Now... yes. If you explain to me, how pistols should add up to defence in the game?
Within current game mechannics, weapons are purely offensive tools. I up to now didn't see my health or fire resist for example increase due to packing a specific weapon.
Are you going to have more or less defences if you are a pistol user than a rifle user? (from a realistic point of view)
You are up close and risking injury far more than a rifle user.
In order that the defence/offence balance between weapon systems remains the same, we then have to ajust pistol damage/time so it's less than a rifle of equal tl and dmg+freq%.
@sylow, you're faster meaning your hit less when using a pistol, tho that is no stat it does make a difference in your dmg input to say so
Movement speed is more or less irrelevant when balancing dmg/time.
Are you going to have more or less defences if you are a pistol user than a rifle user? (from a realistic point of view)
You are up close and risking injury far more than a rifle user.
Sure. Not having to drag 6 pounds of high-caliber sniper rifle (i know, most are not that heavy, but you know what i want to say) would also allow me to squeeze myself into a ceramic vest while the guy with the rifle would stay with "simple" kevlar.
My question rather is, how would you do that in terms of game mechanics? Pistols giving a bonus on resists in the future? If yes, does that only count when you have the pistol drawn? (Not good, storing your pistol then decreases your defence.) Or simply by having it in your quickbelt? (Even worse, then i pack 10 pistols in my belt to get incredible defences... ;) )
In order that the defence/offence balance between weapon systems remains the same, we then have to ajust pistol damage/time so it's less than a rifle of equal tl and dmg+freq%.
Honestly, from what i read in the concept, the difference between pistol and rifle is minimal and i even agree that the pistol looks a tiny bit more attractive than the rifle.
But when i compare pistol / rifle versus heavy weapons or APU, they all fall short. (Heavy weapons might even out a bit with the reloading time. The APU just takes one more PSI-booster and doesn't even notice... so right now, with the given damage concept, we change from "APU is god" to "APU is godlike". )
Of course, when i consider that the monk will perhaps (depending on how they plan to implement the PPU spells) really be fragile, the high damage might even out by him being killed in a few shots. But when taking damage and endurance of matching classes into account, i still don't see a place for the spy. Very fragile and having extremely low damage weapons at hand, the stealthtool will again be his only friend on the battlefield. (Unless nanites turn out to be powerful weapons of doom. But i guess we also don't want to see that... )
Movement speed is more or less irrelevant when balancing dmg/time.
Absolutely true. And this is even before considering that pistol/rifle users in the current system decide between investing either in their offensive skill or agility while some other classes simply take both.
erm why are defensive capabilities irrelevant for balancing dmg output of weapons? O_o
would mean that a mendicant smg should deal as much dmg as libbi
the armor issue is totally nonesense as rifle and pistol pa got the same stats anyways
My question rather is, how would you do that in terms of game mechanics? Pistols giving a bonus on resists in the future? If yes, does that only count when you have the pistol drawn? (Not good, storing your pistol then decreases your defence.) Or simply by having it in your quickbelt? (Even worse, then i pack 10 pistols in my belt to get incredible defences... ;) )
I think what is implied is that pistol users are going to be up close. If you are going to be in someone elses face, you'd spec accordingly. Therefore psitol setups would theoretically be different from rifle setups ( who would stay out of harms way.)
erm why are defensive capabilities irrelevant for balancing dmg output of weapons? O_o
would mean that a mendicant smg should deal as much dmg as libbi
the armor issue is totally nonesense as rifle and pistol pa got the same stats anyways
Not true. The PA's may be similar, but the armour setups can ( and will) be different. especially with more pieces being implemented.
^^^^^
erm why are defensive capabilities irrelevant for balancing dmg output of weapons? O_o
They are not. But since you sacrifice speed to take the pistol/rifle by investing dex-points which you would have in agility as another class, the theme can be quite complex... first day, let's see the rough cuts. :)
the armor issue is totally nonesense as rifle and pistol pa got the same stats anyways
Actually the PA could be the way to balance this... pistol PA could give more protection than rifle PA. It would support the concept of Dribble_Joy.
Though, i would hate to see that, when i got the glimps of a choice, i prefer to go fighting without PA, i don't want to be forced even more to use one.
I think what is implied is that pistol users are going to be up close. If you are going to be in someone elses face, you'd spec accordingly. Therefore psitol setups would theoretically be different from rifle setups ( who would stay out of harms way.)
Theoretically... hmm, yes. Practically, unless the pistol user mysteriously has 20 more points in constitution than the rifle user, i see no way to do that.
No go in terms of game mechanics, i am sorry. :(
Sounds good. Yet i'm afraid APUs will still be the most viable class.
If you would give the new weapon odels points according to the stats they get.
lowest = 0, low = 1, medium = 2, high = 3 and highest = 4
(saying that APU/M-C aiming = 4 points and sta/psi drain for clipsize = 2)
It ends up like this:
HC ends up with shitty 10 points, Rifles, Pistols and melee share the 2nd place with 14 points where as APU wins with 18 points. Seems to be just like it is now. O_O
Give monks LOS and aiming. Then balance.
To make things that bit more fair APU spells DEFINITELY need line of sight. If the offensive PPU spells like parashock and such lame PvP killing things aren't removed, they need line of sight as well.
The low dmg output for rifles seems a bit odd. Their longer range should be balanced by the slow movement when their weapons is drawn and not lower dmg. You have to remember that in the majority of situations, people are 5m apart, so unless you have a strategy to change this, rifles are going to be underpowered.
I do like the sound of grenade changes though. If they were useful to the point of being a secondary weapon like in the average FPS, then that would add a hell of a lot to strategic gameplay.
In what reality does getting shot by a rifle hurt less than getting shot with a pistol? From what I can see, riflers are getting royally shafted, APU's will remain Kings, closely followed by Pistol PE's. So remind me exactly how this balancing is going to affect the game again.
The only difference I can see these changes having is reducing everyone else's range while keeping rifles as they are now. Seeing as the majority of PvP takes place 2 yards apart this will have absolutely no effect.
The BS that is the draw distance means that rifles will always be f**ked - if you're lucky enough to not have weather effects reducing your visibility to about 30 yards, which is unlikely, mobs/runners still don't appear even when you can see miles of wasteland behind them. You're left randomly scanning empty wasteland in the hope that a hitbox will appear. These are the fundamental problems that make all discussion about tweaks to weapon ranges irrelevant.
And finally, I gather from your comments on kami drones that the unbelievably stupid BS of one shot kill will continue?? No weapon should be able to take a capped buffed char from full health to dead in one shot. It's ridiculous. Kami drones should be able to finish off a wounded char in 1 shot, or do 70/80% damage to a char at full health. If we're going to have 1 shot kills, make Silent Hunters one shot kill and nerf the rate of fire even more. You have about as much chance of getting 2 SH shots off on a target as you have of flying another kami drone out to 2 shot kill someone with kami drones, unless the target isn't paying attention/afk.
I'm getting more and more depressed about the changes to NC by the month, and as has been mentioned, at the rate things are going there won't be a game left to balance by the time any of this gets around to being implemented...
KK really need to analyze the actual gameplay value of kami drones. Do they really do anything good for the game at all?
erm, just as a question. are kami drones that evil? i get ganked by apu/ppu teams or whatever far more often then by a kami drone tbh. and if you balance it to 70/80% of health i have to ask health of what? if you mean a capped tank w ppu support it would still kill all other runners in one shot. mebbe it would be good if such a drone couldn't heal and got less health than atm, so you need to fly in quick and can't always hit perfectly to kill someone.
Just a though, but why not put some GM's in NF with different characters and pvp to see what happens? Also assuming that this all goes to plan we will have a TEST server, so any problems we can raise such as "Rifle's are still useless, increase damage or ROF." Etc? I mean come on they are trying but nothing works in real life as it does on paper.
In general the way i see things now is PVP is basically, players A and B run around in close combat shooting, person who wins is if you ignore overpowered set ups, the person who hits most, but should I spy be able to kill a tank in one on one, just by shooting? No i don't think so because they have stealth for a reason, i think stealth should cancel out healing other than med kits, so MR rifle spy runs at MR hc tank, he blasts him a bit and takes some major damage, he whips out his stealth and runs off, he heals up and comes back, the tank has healed too but it's all still about who hits most, so if the tank heal's up and the spy took more damage, the tank can find him and kill him, if the spy goes too far he wont make it back in time to see any of his damage on the tank.
APU's should be charging in with all guns blazing, sort of like an insane man with a really big gun! But the tank can withstand him better than most so they battle it out like big boys until one dies. A pe should/shouldn't depending on some things such as if they keep stealth, if they do then they are more like the spy in fighting, however if they don't they then can go toe to toe with a tank or apu and it's just who hits better. The advantage of spies is that A, they can drone, B, they can trade skill, C, they can hack net, D, they can drive/pilot, better than a PE can. And out in the wastes they can snipe people and move on, However I think either sniper rifles need to be more powerful OR it needs to be made that a spy can see you when you cant see him! So it's duck and cover.
Over all i think this thread is pointless until it's all tested because on paper things can LOOK fine, but they dont always work out, so Than, time to get some GM's and go play,
P.S. i do agree about rifle range atm ingame it makes no difference, mostly because with hills and all people are in range before you know they are there, the only time you get the drop on them is when your hunting and you know where they will be such as at an op fight, but of cause ops have walls so it's harder to shoot someone! ;)
Dribble Joy
19-05-06, 19:01
My question rather is, how would you do that in terms of game mechanics? Pistols giving a bonus on resists in the future? If yes, does that only count when you have the pistol drawn? (Not good, storing your pistol then decreases your defence.) Or simply by having it in your quickbelt? (Even worse, then i pack 10 pistols in my belt to get incredible defences... ;) )
I am thinking more of the imps and armours a pistoler would use.
PA is indeed one aspect, but all the pistol and rifle based imps could be tailored to provide a slightly different defence/offence balance.
erm why are defensive capabilities irrelevant for balancing dmg output of weapons?
Movement speed is not part of defence. You have to balance on the grounds of perfect skill. If you assume people only hit a spy 60% of the time and a PE 80%, then a person with sufficient skill will have an inapropriate advantage over spies.
You have to ensure though, that people of all skill levels are treated equally.
Kamikazee drones have (most likely netcode related) problems. They usually explode around you without appearing on local, or even being able to see them on your screen, this is a large factor to think about, especially when Revenges come into the equation.
Personally, I think the actual combat drones you need to fly around such as Raptors and whatnot, should have their speed increased, it takes too long to fly to and from an Outpost for example, depending on where you hide, then needing to actually fly around some more to try and keep hitting the same target. Surely the instantly high damage dealing drones should move slower, rather than moving insanely fast. The non-kamikazee drones should be the opposite way round.
I too fail to see how this will change things much, especially from the point of view of using rifles.
Bad aiming, excellent range, low damage, small packet, good freq.
I don't think range is enough of a counter-balance, the way people can hurl themselves across the present draw-distance in a matter of seconds - especially when a H-C tank only needs to cover 1/4 of this distance before smearing you across the floor with his speedie: a PE with a damned-nice heal, shelter and deflect running will reach you before the heal runs. The freq bonus is near-negated by the small packet? An APU has to only cover half the distance, and that's if you're RIGHT on the boundary of your range. When you're aiming at max range, the target is so small that the slightest movement made by the target means you have to re-aim.
I'd be happy if these weapons, designed for maximum effectiveness at range were quicker to aim at range. These are big powerful technological tools designed just for range - and range without aiming prowess isn't worth much.
Someone posted a great idea regarding aiming sniper rifles: That is the zoom-in and zoom-out works as though a drone has been projected across the landscape, effectively giving greater LoS. Has this been considered as an option, if it's feasible?
It's very tough to comment on isolated changes when this whole balancing project is going to be far-reaching - but this thread taken alone concerns me.
Kami drones don't add anything to the game, it just gives a lame tool to anyone desperate enough to use it. Saying that APU PPU teams are more overpowered so they shouldn't nerf kamis, is not a valid arguement
First off - I declare my bias : I am pretty much exclusively a long range rifler.
It's only *just* a worthwhile skill as things stand right now - any further down-tweakage and it will simply be consigned to the rubbish bin of history.
From the proposals seem so far, it looks a lot like I'm just going to be edited out of the game. Finito.
I'm just not sure that you people at KK appreciate exactly how much of a handicap the game mechanics are on any theoretical "range advantage".
Honestly - it's pretty much non-existant. All the maluses that riflers get to supposedly balance out this `advantage` are all just pain for no gain.
Unless the mooted Nano stuff is going to be fucking *amazing* I might as well bend over and start lubing up now in preparation.
Oh - and one last thing ... APU range. Too much.
You realise that your proposal is actually an *increase*... right ?
Oh - and one last thing ... APU range. Too much.
You realise that your proposal is actually an *increase*... right ? How did you come to that conclusion? *waits for kurai to dig his own grave*
and plz, no one else say anything before he posts
Kami drones don't add anything to the game, it just gives a lame tool to anyone desperate enough to use it. Saying that APU PPU teams are more overpowered so they shouldn't nerf kamis, is not a valid arguement
well basically i think it does add a totally different style of droning to the game, btw i don't have any problems with nerfing them, just don't think they are a big problem tbh. :)
vastly decreasing there range could be nice imho
well basically i think it does add a totally different style of droning to the game, btw i don't have any problems with nerfing them, just don't think they are a big problem tbh. :)
vastly decreasing there range could be nice imho the bad parts far outweigh any joy that a droner could get out of it
mhmm... well unless riful user's get a bonus to damage at range and standard damage point blank i can see them being used less and less...
the most skilled players will end up playing tanks due to there ability to keep a constant aim... and the people who can keep that constant aim on a tank will end up tearing up anything else =\
^_^ if we were alowed to shoot our weapons out of the side of our vhc's on the other hand :D then maby rifuls and there uber range would be used more often hehe... especialy on a hover carrier (name?)
I agree with the others here, snipers does not have an "advantage provided by their very long range".
If you (after sneaking around for ages to get to a sniping spot (some hill that everyone knows about) where you can see your targets (and preferably without them lagging around and generally being impossible to target)) start sniping, you will have a tank "sniping" back at you with a cannon almost instantly when they realise what is going on, only to be followed by 3 or 4 Holy lightning two seconds later when a APU has closed the gap. Game over.
The games short clipping range means that everyone (except pistols and melee) that you can hit has the ability to hit you back within a couple of seconds, and the inability to hide due to the hitbox giving away your position to anyone scanning the horizon means that a sniper has no advantage at all.
Me and my spies are sad. :(
How did you come to that conclusion? *waits for kurai to dig his own grave*
and plz, no one else say anything before he posts
Current maximum *real* rifle range (range at which a targeting box appears and a hit will register) is about 600m.
If new APU range is to be 50% of this value, then that gives you a distance of 300m.
That's bigger than the current number.
What part of that do you have difficulty with ?
Heavyporker
20-05-06, 00:46
Well, I must point out that fusion rifles get a damage bonus over distance.
To make it actually viable, all KK has to do is increase the projectile speed.
That way, it's not a " Sniper Here, Come Get Me" suicide flag.
And it'd actually have a chance to hit their targets before they move.
Giving it a little bit of AoE, something like 5 meters, would improve its appeal immensely.
Also, I'm concerned about shotguns, because they are CLEARLY close-range high-damage weapons. How do they fit in with Thanato's outline for rifles? Are they going to get nerfed as per the general expecation of rifles? What about raygun rifles, that get their damage bonus from BEING CLOSE-UP!?
These simple systems with each weapon type having its own unique and varying charactaristics in damage and aiming never work and always end up causing conflict/whining.
I've seen it happen with my own eyes many times before in games industry situations, KK are doing with weapons the same thing they did with classes (APU, PE, Spy etc). Look how many years of whining and monk'o'cron, spy'o'cron, tank'o'cron etc that caused.
Good Luck.
First off - I declare my bias : I am pretty much exclusively a long range rifler.
It's only *just* a worthwhile skill as things stand right now - any further down-tweakage and it will simply be consigned to the rubbish bin of history.
From the proposals seem so far, it looks a lot like I'm just going to be edited out of the game. Finito.
I'm just not sure that you people at KK appreciate exactly how much of a handicap the game mechanics are on any theoretical "range advantage".
Honestly - it's pretty much non-existant. All the maluses that riflers get to supposedly balance out this `advantage` are all just pain for no gain.
Unless the mooted Nano stuff is going to be fucking *amazing* I might as well bend over and start lubing up now in preparation.
Oh - and one last thing ... APU range. Too much.
You realise that your proposal is actually an *increase*... right ?
I only play a Rifle Spy and so-called range accounts for very little in PvP(especially when you get fog etc). I also see run speed has not been mentioned in all this either (Pistol users get no reduced speed), which it HAS to be if this is going to be balanced. You can't just miss stuff out!
With the current proposals I agree with you, I will also be forced to leave this game.
The Sniper Rifles are still BUGGED, when you fire them the shot does not come out of the rifle barrel, it come out above or below or either side of you. So if you're standing next to an object it quite often does not fire at the target.
Healing Light does not do location damage for some reason - so you can scope it but there's no point in aiming for a particular body area.
Ray of God is gimped so bad it doesnt make it worth using anymore.
I'm not going to go on. Just to say fix the weapons first before you do anything else!
Movement speed is not part of defence. You have to balance on the grounds of perfect skill. If you assume people only hit a spy 60% of the time and a PE 80%, then a person with sufficient skill will have an inapropriate advantage over spies.
You have to ensure though, that people of all skill levels are treated equally.
:lol:
and if you balance on perfect skill than the normal runner will have an inapropriate disadvantage when fighting spies(which isn't true either as they are not the fastest class). aim would have close to no effect, cause once you logged on you stay that way.
and btw if you implement new armor then the rifle user will use exactly the same as the pistoleer, unless you bring in some skillbuffs like in a pa.
Avoiding Damage is better then reducing it. to avoid damage you have to be quick, to not get hit so often and to move out of line of sight if necessary. You evade far better while reloading a pistol than while reloading a rifle or even a cannon as these weapons slow you down a lot, while pistols don't decrease your speed. And that of course has to be considered when balancing dot. not just the damage you deal, but the damage you take while doing so is of interest here. :o
Honestly. The Gun System is Pretty Good where it is. YOu dont Need to rework the Actual Weapon Types. Just a Few Fixes...
* Give cannons more ammo,Say about double Cs/Rav clip.
*Make Tl10 Heal Harder To cap.
*Pe's Should not be allowed to use Wepaons over tl 100 being the "Jack of All Trades".
*Bring back tl3 heals to where they used to be.
*Drugs need some Reworking. Maybe Make it so Drugflash Cannot being avoided so easily.
*Crossbow Should be a Spy only Req.
*Apus Are really pretty fine where they are at the moment the problem Really occurs when You pair them up with a PPU that theyre are GREATLY Boosted in Performance. But then Again your Taking two EXRTREME Characters (Pure Agresive and Pure Passive and Mixing them together) and making the "Best" team in the Game, theoretically. Line of Sight on Apu Spells would be a harsh move consaidering the Current Peice of shit Netocode.
*Distance that can be seen without any Aid is fine. But Spys With "Scopes" Should be able to see almost across an entire zone.
*Maybe Adding a "Thermal vision Mod and Night vision Mod" ingame for all Sniper Rifles. These could be obtained in some Rare run Such as DOY tunnels. Or made from Rare Parts.
*Giving Tanks/Pe's Binoculars and Thermal goggles Obtained through Rare Parts or a Quest. This would counter a Spys Stealth. But they still couldnt attack the spy with the Binocs Drawn just Track him. not Making it to bad.
*pistols as actual weapons are Decent.
*rethink some weapon Damages ex: libby :cool: , ROG, ROLH,etc...
I Think the idea Im getting at is ALL classes should have cerain Advantages/disadvantaes over Certain Classes but Then should all also have their counterpart classes which has an edge over them.
Hand grenades are not on the list, they are currently tied to the heavy combat skill, but really not that useful. We'd like to improve them and maybe also revise the usage restrictions.
...
Ammo Capacity
1. Pistols (20)
2. Rifles (16)
3. Cannons (12)
granades changes - best thing i hear for a long time.
on the ammo thing - why have pistols the biggest ammo size ?
i think they should change place with the cannons.
Dribble Joy
20-05-06, 12:31
and if you balance on perfect skill than the normal runner will have an inapropriate disadvantage when fighting spies(which isn't true either as they are not the fastest class). aim would have close to no effect, cause once you logged on you stay that way.
What are you getting at here?
If you assume 60% hit rate on spies and 80% on other classes, this would be worked into the defence balance, spies would have proportionally less defences that if if you assumed 80% hit rate on them. Normal runners would have no advantage or disadvantage.
The skilled runner would then be at an advantage since speed has no baring on his ability to hit.
and btw if you implement new armor then the rifle user will use exactly the same as the pistoleer, unless you bring in some skillbuffs like in a pa.
That's what I meant, though imps would be the primary means of distinguishing pistolers and riflers.
Avoiding Damage is better then reducing it. to avoid damage you have to be quick, to not get hit so often and to move out of line of sight if necessary.
You cannot avoid damage, speed and all the weaving in the world will not save you. Speak to any of the skilled PvPers and you should find that they have little problem hitting anyone.
@agree for the run speed pistol vs rifle, has to be more studied.
What are you getting at here?
If you assume 60% hit rate on spies and 80% on other classes, this would be worked into the defence balance, spies would have proportionally less defences that if if you assumed 80% hit rate on them. Normal runners would have no advantage or disadvantage.
The skilled runner would then be at an advantage since speed has no baring on his ability to hit.
yes, that was your example and i just wanted to point out that if you don't do it that way than the normal runner would deal less damage to a spy than to a pe as defenses would be more or less the same. the skilled runner would deal the same damage on both, and that's what the point is, if you intend to keep some fps elements in the game then the skilled pvper will always have an (if you like unfair) advantage over the nonskilled ones, question is just how much skill influences. i'm well aware that most really good players don't have problems hitting a moving target, but nonetheless you will take more damage when parashocked as about everything hits you perfectly.
back to weapons *cough*
i personally would like to see a boost of lowtech weapons, as most are rather useless for pvp, so that playing a lotech character does make sense again.
rifles really need a boost, as the range advantage is close to nonexistent, taking into account the range most pvp happens on and the visibility of far away targets. I like the idea of that projected drone for the sight of a sniper, would give them the ability to really strike first and move away after that, which is crucial for a sniper.
Increasing speed of raptor and such would imo make drones absolutely overpowered as it would be almost impossible to aim at them ( even for skilled pvp players if the droner uses cover and such).
that kami drones are somehow problematic is imo due to the netcode, that just doesnt show them in local when they are there, so you get killed by an invisible enemy, once you spottet them they (if you do the right things) don't pose too much of a threat.
Current maximum *real* rifle range (range at which a targeting box appears and a hit will register) is about 600m.
If new APU range is to be 50% of this value, then that gives you a distance of 300m.
That's bigger than the current number.
you still need a lock though.
I think they should increase the viewing distance, people can buy a new PC if they can't handle it, or just put fog on and live with it.
Range = nothing if you zone into your target....
Current maximum *real* rifle range (range at which a targeting box appears and a hit will register) is about 600m.
If new APU range is to be 50% of this value, then that gives you a distance of 300m.
That's bigger than the current number.
What part of that do you have difficulty with ? Through my own experimentation the max view distance is closer to 200m.
I think they should increase the viewing distance, people can buy a new PC if they can't handle it, or just put fog on and live with it.
Hard to see how KK could manage that within the constraints of the elderly and very inefficient engine, or their minimal coding staff.
Through my own experimentation the max view distance is closer to 200m.
200m is nonsense. Go do better experiments.
also
you still need a lock though.
What the hell's that got to do with ... well ... anything ?
I'm still interested to find you out why you thought I was wrong about the APU range increase.
My nav ray says its no where near 600m, my gun says it's no where near 600m, my common sense tells me it's no where near 600m.
http://i4.tinypic.com/1070320.jpg
EDIT: and i think we have all underestimated the power of sniping. The number of people that I could have killed in OP wars with nerfed PPUs is huge and usually you could take out somebody from max distance before they even got to you / noticed they were getting hit. Even if they did, they would be on severly reduced HP. Maybe it's just a matter of people having to play rifle chars differently than they do atm
That image doesn't show anything worthwhile to support your argument.
a) The navray target is still visible.
b) Navray distances are ... unreliable. They don't seem to correspond to the same scale that the weapons use. (Since we are talking about weapons that seems a reasonable scale to utilise instead)
c) It's night. Reduced draw distance.
d) It's raining. Reduced draw distance.
Find an open area with perfect visibilty and max draw distance (i.e. daytime, no weather effect, no line of sight obstructions, no zone lines etc)
Use a variety of ranged weapons that have stepped increase in range stat. (e.g. Tangent Gatling [250m], Assault Rifle [386m], Substandard Pulselaser [483m], First Love [535m], Tangent Assault Rifle [553m], Standard Street Model Rifle [571m], Pain Easer [628m], Sureshot Laser Rifle [749m]).
Target something that brings up a hitbox. Move backwards and find the point where hits stop regestering.
You'll find that as you get to the Pain Easer [628m] you go straight from registered hits to losing hitbox entirely as you backpeddle. Stepping up to weapons with further stat ranges has no effect.
This demonstrates that the clipping limit is somewhere between the max ranges of SSM Rifle [571m] and Pain Easer [628m].
So - I ask again. Exactly what am I supposed to be digging my own grave about ?
i personally would like to see a boost of lowtech weapons, as most are rather useless for pvp, so that playing a lotech character does make sense again.
Sure, as long as the requirements get a hefty bump upwards.
Their effectiveness on the current scale reflects their reduced cost in invested skill points, which seems reasonable.
Xbow at it's max range of 171m: http://i4.tinypic.com/107vv4i.jpg
Just past the distance where hitboxes can be seen: http://i4.tinypic.com/107vvht.jpg
Libby at max range 171m: http://i4.tinypic.com/107vvoh.jpg
Just past the distance where hitboxes can be seen: http://i4.tinypic.com/107vx3m.jpg
So your saying that a) My nav-ray is lying b) My gun is lying c) My judgement of distance is wrong (no way is that 600m).
Sure, as long as the requirements get a hefty bump upwards.
Their effectiveness on the current scale reflects their reduced cost in invested skill points, which seems reasonable.
That's what i meant, put in one or 2 top of the line lotech weapons too. It's just that i like them more then hitech personally :angel:
Oh God, the Liberator before 2.1 was in a league of it's own in terms of style.. Perhaps it shared that league with the Healing Light pre-2.1 aswell..
Haw.. :cool:
Dribble Joy
21-05-06, 14:44
That's what i meant, put in one or 2 top of the line lotech weapons too. It's just that i like them more then hitech personally :angel:
Depending on the overall tech level spread (and the top dex a PE can reach), low tech cannot go beyond a cirtain TL. Imagine if there was a tl110 lowtech rifle (and the HL was fixed), why would anyone use the HL?
(This is assuming dmg/time at cap is dependant on TL)
The only way you could have top end low techs is if the comparitive high techs did suficiently more dmg to represent the TC skilling.
The exact same setup with (purely for exampular purposes) 180 PC and 105 dex gets the same dmg on a tl 105 low tech as a tl 105 high tech with 175 PC and 105 dex.
In the same way slightly different setups, both with 105 dex and 180 PC would get a higher dmg on the hightech as the lowtech.
You could put TC into the dmg relationship, or formulate low and high techs differently, but it's messy, so keeping dmg/time dependant on tl only seems a much better option.
Back to the main topic, pistols should have a much shorter range than the '300' figure. If the draw distance is 600, then 300/1000 is 180 metres, far too high. Pistols should be 50m tops.
tbh to put tc into the damage relationship would be great, at least for some weapons, as it would give hackers some means of defense outside of hn, which they totally lack atm :D
additionaly tc gives you other benefits such as stealth, so a spy needs 90 tc for stealth 2 anyways, which is more than any hitech rifle or pistol needs. if they implement a tc requirement for pe stealth as well you will see noone using lotech rifles/pistols anymore, cause the tool is way to usefull to not have imo. additionally skilling tc 90 or putting it all into rc/pc just makes a difference of 10-13 pts more pc. combined with the advantage a stealth tool gives the difference should not be more than maybe 5 points imo.
we need clip extenders as weapon mods. 150% clipsize would be my suggestion, assuming clip sizes would be made balanced across the board.
Dribble Joy
21-05-06, 16:59
we need clip extenders as weapon mods. 150% clipsize would be my suggestion, assuming clip sizes would be made balanced across the board.
You would have to balance assuming a clip mod though, which I am unsure about. It would make higher slotted weapons even more valuable (which wouldn't help casual players, which whether you think that is a bad thing or not is subject to opinion) and lower slotted even more worthless.
As to TC, perhaps stealth (however it's reworked) should not have a TC req. Making TC a dmg affector would drive even more people to hightech and a TC req on stealth would further exasperate this. If low tech is to be as or nearly as common as high tech then TC should not be a critical skill and stealth should be based on something else, like maybe just dex and/or int.
So your saying that a) My nav-ray is lying b) My gun is lying c) My judgement of distance is wrong (no way is that 600m).
1. He is a rifle spy, you are a pistol user, different class and weapons, so you need to find a rifle character to get a fair comparison.
2. What about the scope attachment?
1. Rifles (1000)
2. Cannons (750)
3. APU (500)
4. Pistols (300)
5. Melee
id rather
1. Rifles (1000)
2. Cannons (750)
3. Pistols (300)
4. APU (200)
5. Melee
High damage No aim, sounds like melee... yet with all new range!
id rather
1. Rifles (1000)
2. Cannons (750)
3. Pistols (300)
4. APU (200)
5. Melee
High damage No aim, sounds like melee... yet with all new range!
Thinking about it in an Opwar or PvP situation, range is irrelevant, unless you snipe, and to be honest, there aion't that much out there to snipe effectively with.
PvPwise, everything could have a 5km range and it wouldn't matter.
The only time range is important is for say completeness ( fix pistols!) or for PvE.
id rather
1. Rifles (1000)
2. Cannons (750)
3. Pistols (300)
4. APU (200)
5. Melee
High damage No aim, sounds like melee... yet with all new range!
FFS people, APU will have a reticle. That was in a previous discussion, and it also is the only thing that makes sense from this proposal as its said "Melee has no aim" while "APU has fast aim". Now, I actually do think APU range should be a lot more like pistol range - half rifle range sounds far too big to me - but APUs are getting a fucking reticle!
cant stress one thing enough it seems...
You have to see the weapon-num's IN RELATION TO THE OTHER CHARACTER ATTRIB'S!
The PPU is supposed to no longer make up for a chars weaknesses (according to Dirus the PPU is now ment to boost a chars strengths ..eg apu would get an additional dmg boost, but no godmode .. he's the most vulnerable and even with a PPU that shall remain unchanged) ... meaning, an APU with uber dmg-output will no longer withstand your CS the way he used to. They're fragmeat if they cant kill you fast enough.
Think of it as a duel without PPU's involved ... imagine a PE vs APU... APU with a reticle and slower frequency... piece of cake.
I cant really blame you .. but imo you guys have gotten a lil apuphobic. without a PPU buttplug they're no big deal nor will they be any stronger after the balancing - the opposite seems to be the case.
cant stress one thing enough it seems...
You have to see the weapon-num's IN RELATION TO THE OTHER CHARACTER ATTRIB'S!
The PPU is supposed to no longer make up for a chars weaknesses (according to Dirus the PPU is now ment to boost a chars strengths ..eg apu would get an additional dmg boost, but no godmode .. he's the most vulnerable and even with a PPU that shall remain unchanged) ... meaning, an APU with uber dmg-output will no longer withstand your CS the way he used to. They're fragmeat if they cant kill you fast enough.
Think of it as a duel without PPU's involved ... imagine a PE vs APU... APU with a reticle and slower frequency... piece of cake.
I cant really blame you .. but imo you guys have gotten a lil apuphobic. without a PPU buttplug they're no big deal nor will they be any stronger after the balancing - the opposite seems to be the case.
Agree on certain levels. APU phobia however, isn't really an accurate statement. Solo, I doubt anyones more scared of an apu than they are any other character. As a tank, less so. It's a level field there. They don't have S/D and they don't have stealth. Even if they did, they don't have a decent heal, unless they knock off a bit ( or a fuckton if you take implants into account.) to stick in PPU.
My preferred enemy, as a tank solo, is an APU solo.
I think yes, the phobia more concerns the PPU/APU team. Regardless of a buttplug of your own, with Antibuff, the odds are stacked firmly against. A glass cannon becomes something a little tougher. Although this situation is only valid with the game as it is now.
I still find the weapon balance shaky at best, my main area of concern is indeed, how PPUs will affect the other classes after balancing. I belive the step forward is to first of all affect change upon the classes, as it's often thier base attributes, and to a certain extent, passive psi and tools that affect the gameplay dynamic more than anything.
Make the change there, and then look at balancing other areas, if need be.
Shouldnt the Monks still be strongest groups especially ppu apu gangs? but get owned with a number of tanks and ppu's?
OT: I aint 100% sure but didn't monks own in the story of nc until Tanks with their rare weaponry (WOC) kicked ass?
FFS people, APU will have a reticle. That was in a previous discussion, and it also is the only thing that makes sense from this proposal as its said "Melee has no aim" while "APU has fast aim". Now, I actually do think APU range should be a lot more like pistol range - half rifle range sounds far too big to me - but APUs are getting a fucking reticle! The amount of people who don't read what is being said is ridiculous. Have people already forgotten that KK said that said that APU dmg would get nerfed :rolleyes:
Prior to this balancing thing I always thought that the NC community were above average intelligence, but now I realise that very few are.
The amount of people who don't read what is being said is ridiculous. Have people already forgotten that KK said that said that APU dmg would get nerfed :rolleyes:
Prior to this balancing thing I always thought that the NC community were above average intelligence, but now I realise that very few are.
Is it just me or have you won mastermind recently or something. Although, that said, if you had in fact, won you might have realised this tiny little gem on your intellectual (mis)adventure, and hold on, because if you blink you'll miss it!
Insulting peoples intelligence on an internet forum has no bearing on practically anything. Whatsoever.
Go outside and get a tan, see some birds. Hell, plant a tree. Do something worthwhile for gods sake.
OK - looks like I might be in need of a good spade and a location to dig a six foot hole :o
Using Navray measurements alone with the current engine configuration I get a max draw distance of 171m (in perfect conditions etc) and a maximum clip/hitbox distance of 141m (ditto).
The last time I remember doing any tests on this was waaaaaaaaaay back in NC1, and I cannot for the life of me find my old posts/data on the subject. From a subjective point of view I don't recall effective ranges being much different than they are in NC2.1, so I can only assume for now that I was operating under faulty assumptions.
I don't currently have any reticule weapons with max stat ranges low enough to come under current clipping range, so can't verifiably compare Navray & weapon stat range scales but my gut feel is that they won't be different enough to be significant.
Giga wins this one, people :lol:
Giga wins this one, people :lol: Half wins, since APUs being able to aim half the draw distance is still an increase in range, the numbers were just wrong.
The last time I remember doing any tests on this was waaaaaaaaaay back in NC1...
there were navray distances displayed in nc1? 8| o_O
there were navray distances displayed in nc1? 8| o_ONope.
I vaguely remember doing the range tests as I was levelling up through the various low TL weapons, and going by the stated ranges on the stats.
Is it just me or have you won mastermind recently or something. Although, that said, if you had in fact, won you might have realised this tiny little gem on your intellectual (mis)adventure, and hold on, because if you blink you'll miss it!
Insulting peoples intelligence on an internet forum has no bearing on practically anything. Whatsoever.
Go outside and get a tan, see some birds. Hell, plant a tree. Do something worthwhile for gods sake. Low blood sugar?
Lets get back on topic people :)
It still remains though however you look at it, Sniper Rifle range is still not very useful. By the time you have spotted an enemy moving across the map and un-stealthed, drawn your weapon, zoomed in, got a recticle lock and fired your sniper rifle which will not always fire straight away... the person you were aiming at has already shortened the distance between you enough to begin returning fire. That is of course assuming you do hit first time :)
It is then at that point its time to run and re-locate or die :(
Either the whole view distance needs to be increased, or rifles need a boost in some way.
Dribble Joy
23-05-06, 19:57
Either the whole view distance needs to be increased, or rifles need a boost in some way.
As with the current consideration to people on dial up, I think KK need to say 'Sod it. People are/should be playing on better systems.' With the upgraded textures it would make sense.
tbh i think an increased drawing distance isn't very easy to code and will therefore not be done, tho this would really be a good way to increase rifle effectiveness
tbh i think an increased drawing distance isn't very easy to code and will therefore not be done, tho this would really be a good way to increase rifle effectiveness afaik they already admitted to purposely putting the fog in so people with better computers don't get an advantage. I think that it's bs, should give people the proper game experience.
oops, my fault :p
ya, then tis would be nice, could draw only runners beyond that fog, so that wouldn't be such a drastic desrease ins fps then :)
Weapon Damage Output
1. APU
2. Melee
3. Cannons
4. Pistols
5. Rifles
Firing Frequency
1. Pistols (120 Shots/Min.)
2. Rifles (90 Shots /Min.)
3. APU (60 Casts/Min.)
4. Melee (60 Hits/Min.)
5. Cannons (40 Shots /Min.)
So... Are Pistols going to Fire faster, Aim fast, Do more damage than a Rifle.... If so is there much point in a rifle apart from a little Distance, and with current Fog and Netcode.... this doesnt seem viable.
Dribble Joy
24-05-06, 13:44
They mean overall characteristics. Pistols may actually do less dmg/time than rifles, as pistols may have a more defencive side.
mebbe one could implement something like better stats for pistols in an enclosed environment like a cave or sthing and better stats for rifles in open spaces, so their applications would differ more
They mean overall characteristics. Pistols may actually do less dmg/time than rifles, as pistols may have a more defencive side.
True! But, they ALSO have no nerf on run speed either so harder to hit a faster moving target.
I agree with Pantho and Kurai, with these current proposals there will just be simply no point in using a rifle at all. Its already bad enough as it is, now they propose to make it more un-balanced... I really don't understand!
oh dribble has the firm oppinion that movement doesn't affect pvp :D
I still think you could take out a lot of people in OP wars (when ppus get nerfed), if the dmg on rifles is similar to how it is atm.
Dribble Joy
25-05-06, 01:29
oh dribble has the firm oppinion that movement doesn't affect pvp :D
It doesn't affect balance, as you have to assume perfect skill. What you must also do is make sure that balance is maintained throughout the non-perfect skill range. Making a cirtain class or sub class dependant on speed may be fine for degrees of non-perfect skill, but will give an inproportionate advantage to those with high/near-perfect skill and an disproportionate disadvantage to those with lower skill.
This IS a skill based game, but it must also be a fair skill based game.
well i still do think that a speed nerf that drawn rifles and cannons have should be considered in the balance of weapons as anybody, no matter how good he/she is will inflict less damage on a fast moving target then on a slow one, even if he manages to keep an aim on the person. It also makes escaping or going into cover much harder when your slow and you won't be good at chasing targets. and the latter things are not affected by any playerskill. And if you consider fights with more than 2 participants you can cycle around other runners to break someones aim, which is also way easier when your the faster char.
btw could you tell me why you think it's a necessity to balance based on the assumption there are perfect players in the game? mebbe with an argument and not with something like it has to be that way :D
Deus Ex Machina
25-05-06, 14:40
It doesn't affect balance, as you have to assume perfect skill.
The aim is to balance the game, not some dream / nightmare - balancing on "perfect skill" as you call it would mean either to vaporize the game (cause Battle between perfekt skillers depents on the first hit and is not reallly fun) or make it impossible to have perfect skill.
I think its safe to say no one has consequent perfect skill, show me one (that isn't close to be banned cause of the things that make him hit perfectly) - just one. Not even APU's are that good, letting aside aiming classes.
So you have to balance on the average player, maybe a bit above him. Why? Because the aim of the game is not to dish out the maximum amount of damage, but to dish out the maximum amount of fun.
If a player is REALLY good he can get the most advantage out of the difficult classes - well if he can - he is allowed in my opinion, no one will cry to give this one player a handicap - one will only assume he is good.
Would it be balanced on perfect skill on the other hand there is bound to be some classes who have an advantage over everyone who has a speed malus - which would overpower them for most players (most players being that without "perfect skill").
Argument ended, replys can only be expected to valid counter arguments
P.S. I just hope this does make sense in english too.
Language errrors may be pointed out, as I am not a native speaker, but this "you must balance on perfect skill" was somehow getting on my nerves so I had to post.
btw could you tell me why you think it's a necessity to balance based on the assumption there are perfect players in the game? mebbe with an argument and not with something like it has to be that way :D
For balance, you have to base offense/defense on the fact that someone has 100% perfect skill.
If you start taking things into account such as 'this is balanced but that person might miss a couple of times or that person might move slower then him' thats when mathematical balance of point skills becomes a near impossibility.
It isnt balancing based on the assumption of perfect players in the game, its balancing based on the hypothetical situation with 100% mathematical accuracy.
Dribble Joy
25-05-06, 19:25
So you have to balance on the average player
No, if you do that then you assume that a person with better than average will only benefit equal to the increase in skill. This is not true, better skilled people will gain a disproportionate advantage.
In a similar vein (as I have allready mentioned), people with below average skill will be at an inproportionate disadvatage.
On top of that, with classes with different relative speeds, the faster ones will be at yet another disadvantage to people with higher skill. Two people playing with near perfect skill, one on a fast char and the other on a slower one, because of the assumed difficulty to hit, their offence/defence balance isn't the same, and the fast one will loose.
Argument ended, replys can only be expected to valid counter arguments
How wonderfully... actually I don't think that deserves reply....
Sorry if its been said. Didnt read the whole thread becouse most is pointless.
I dont like sniping becouse its only good for killing people leveling or afk. For real pvp its pretty much pointless, exept for interfering with op fights. PVP in neocron consists of people running around eachother as eratic as they possably can while trying to hit the other guy. Your watching this, try to hit one consistantly. Add a few more and it gets even more ridiculous.
I hope these balancing ideas are more of a small guideline. Would make all the weapons in one line way to similar and kind of boring. A dead accurate FL that didnt do much dmg would not be fun to use.
It still remains though however you look at it, Sniper Rifle range is still not very useful. By the time you have spotted an enemy moving across the map and un-stealthed, drawn your weapon, zoomed in, got a recticle lock and fired your sniper rifle which will not always fire straight away... the person you were aiming at has already shortened the distance between you enough to begin returning fire. That is of course assuming you do hit first time It is then at that point its time to run and re-locate or die
When your assasinationg someone, they shouldent see you first.
Apocalypsox
25-05-06, 23:44
i still vote for rifle damage needs to be upped. but i had a thought today.
Make the total view distance 500m, no scope wise. make it so that if you zoom in, the next 500m are un-"Fogged" so that you can see any target in the area within the 1000m. easy fix.
So you have to use a slot on all your weapons just to take advantage of the range? :rolleyes:
erm when speed doesn't matter for balancing than aim doesn't matter as well as the 'perfect player' will hit everything just as good with a holy lightning as he does with a first love, so why is everyone wanting a reticule for apus? mebbe cause it does make a difference? :eek:
the discussion is about weapons balance, so a speed nerf you get when using certain types of weapons should be a part of it. you do not know which class will use a weapon in the end, so it's absolute nonesense to say oh well a spy got these defensive capabilities, let's put these offensive capabilities on pistols. the only weapons that have just one user class are apu modules. and your funny argument with spy/pe speed has got nothing to do with weapons (tho it wouldn't make a difference if you balance this based on whatever skill), while a comparison pistol spy / rifle spy would make more sense and then you (hopefully) will see that 2 chars with the same resists will have quite different combat capabilities as the rifler will definately get hit more often as the faster character has the final say on when to take cover to reload/heal/whatever, as a slow char cannot evade the chasing (faster) one.
just imagine 2 perfect peeps running around a tree, trying to gank each other. we assume perfect skill so both hit the other one with 100% of their shots if there's a line of sight.
both start with 400 hitpoints, each hit does 10 dmg, rifle got 20 shots, pistol 25 in the mag.
they start shooting at 200 hitpoints left rifle needs to reload, pistol continues to fire the last 5 shots while the rifler reloads his gun health of rifler 150 pistoleer 200. now pistol needs reload, but as the pistoleer is faster he can put the tree in between both while reloading, so after that health still 200 / 150. now both continue to fire, end of fight : rifler 0 health, pistoleer 50.
note that both sides used an aimbot, but still speed did give an advantage.
you can exchange the tree for a runner or any other obstacle that you can find, so don't tell me your not running around sthing quite often.
and to mathematics, if you just use something a lil more advanced than a simple summation you can also take things like speed and range and all stuff into account. the only thing you can do to have your 100% mathematically correct balance is to remove all classes but one and all weapons but one. then mebbe the skills altogether and then that is 100% balanced. if you want to have some diversity in the game you need to take other defensive measures (like stealth or runspeed) into account. it really is hard to believe that you don't seem to understand that 8|
erm when speed doesn't matter for balancing than aim doesn't matter as well as the 'perfect player' will hit everything just as good with a holy lightning as he does with a first love, so why is everyone wanting a reticule for apus? mebbe cause it does make a difference? :eek:
I used to think the same thing. Your not taking into consideration reloading and when people walk into your recticle. Basicly the more people your fighting the harder it is to aim with slow lock recticle weapons. Its why a FL spy is alright against a xbow spy but in a op fight situation the FL spy gers slaughtered.
As for the rest of what you said, i dont feel like decyphering exactly what your trying to say right now.
well you should have read the posts b4 :p
and i just wanted to point out exactly what you have said in your post :D
Deus Ex Machina
26-05-06, 13:24
No, if you do that then you assume that a person with better than average will only benefit equal to the increase in skill. This is not true, better skilled people will gain a disproportionate advantage.
In a similar vein (as I have allready mentioned), people with below average skill will be at an inproportionate disadvatage.
On top of that, with classes with different relative speeds, the faster ones will be at yet another disadvantage to people with higher skill. Two people playing with near perfect skill, one on a fast char and the other on a slower one, because of the assumed difficulty to hit, their offence/defence balance isn't the same, and the fast one will loose.
Since expected doesn't mean I won't give one if I feel like...
You still lack an explanation why an advantage is disproportional... These are Statements, backed up by nothing.
Let's see we have a skilled player with a fast class vs. the average player in comparison to the skilled player with a slow class vs. the average player... The slower one will be hit more often.
If they are both very good - "perfect skilled" being nonexistant - The Advantages for the fast people are still there as Yuuki pointed out.
If not balanced on "perfect skill" the players that have "perfect skill " (nonexistant as they are) only have an greater advantage from a slower class if they go up against a similar good player, as one that doesn't hit 100% is bound to hit the slower class more often.
A player that hits the slower with e.g. 90% of the shots will hit the faster maybe only with 80% - ergo it adds to the defence. Don't say that isn't so, first find someone who hits a fast Char with the same percentages as a slow one.
The only one that gains maybe more advantage is the one that hits the fast one 100% - but to take full advantage from this situation he himself has to play a fast Char so he can't be evaded (or something else).
So you have to use a slot on all your weapons just to take advantage of the range? :rolleyes:
Sure thats the whole point of one of the advantages only Rifles have... a scope.
Apocalypsox
26-05-06, 16:34
So you have to use a slot on all your weapons just to take advantage of the range? :rolleyes:
its ment to be used for snipers. SH all the way.
When your assasinationg someone, they shouldent see you first.
How did you extract that from what i said? Read again please.
I was mearly stating that it takes time to do - from first being un-stealthed the enemy has a chance to see you.
So if visible targeting range is less than it should be (as it is now), the less time it takes for the enemy to get into return-firing range. Do you see now, or so I need to explain more?
i still vote for rifle damage needs to be upped. but i had a thought today.
Make the total view distance 500m, no scope wise. make it so that if you zoom in, the next 500m are un-"Fogged" so that you can see any target in the area within the 1000m. easy fix.
Agreed with the exception that scope should then be made rifle only with few exceptions such as laser cannon.
[ edited ]
How did you extract that from what i said? Read again please.
I was mearly stating that it takes time to do - from first being un-stealthed the enemy has a chance to see you.
So if visible targeting range is less than it should be (as it is now), the less time it takes for the enemy to get into return-firing range. Do you see now, or so I need to explain more?
So ya according to you by the time you unstealth at 500m from your target, then take about 3 seconds (im being generous) to zoom, lock, and fire, your target has already both spotted you nearly instantly (becouse everyone is always looking for snipers at 500m) and crossed 450m so their pistol can get a lock and fired upon you? :wtf:
If you exagerated and just made a small paragraph to show you think low draw distance is bad, then yes, we all know that.
As for increasing draw distance with the SH scope and stuff, not a bad idea. I remember reading it somewhere else. Still though i would rather the normal draw distance was increased first. I just think it would be dumb if you had to buy a laser pointer for every smg out there to get its total frequency or somthing like that.
For balance, you have to base offense/defense on the fact that someone has 100% perfect skill.
If you start taking things into account such as 'this is balanced but that person might miss a couple of times or that person might move slower then him' thats when mathematical balance of point skills becomes a near impossibility.
True, but people will have less than 100% perfect skill. Plus some numbers will be hard to compare: How much advantage in range do you need to compensate an advantage in damage output?
So the mathematical balance can only be a first step, and you have to adjust based on real world results. Which means that some tournament events on a test server are probably necessary to try out things.
True, but people will have less than 100% perfect skill. Plus some numbers will be hard to compare: How much advantage in range do you need to compensate an advantage in damage output?
just take the speed of an average pistol user, take the time he needs to close the gap between the rifle range and his range and you'll have your number :p
So the mathematical balance can only be a first step, and you have to adjust based on real world results. Which means that some tournament events on a test server are probably necessary to try out things.
Even a tournament doesn't really do it. The pistol-guy, when firing at 15 meters, will be under return fire within a second or two.
The rifler, when he uses his range and plays it well, might even fire several shots before the target knows from where he is under attack. Or at least, that would happen, wouldn't there be the weapon swirl marking the rifleman over miles...
Apocalypsox
31-05-06, 16:29
Even a tournament doesn't really do it. The pistol-guy, when firing at 15 meters, will be under return fire within a second or two.
The rifler, when he uses his range and plays it well, might even fire several shots before the target knows from where he is under attack. Or at least, that would happen, wouldn't there be the weapon swirl marking the rifleman over miles...
silent hunters dont have swirlies...due to this exact problem. WAHAHAHHAHAHA *gg*
silent hunters dont have swirlies...due to this exact problem. WAHAHAHHAHAHA *gg*
True. But all other rare rifles have it. Wouldn't they, some of them could also make nice sniper rifles.
I've fought 4 snipers all died without making a kill, Mainly because when you snipe it takes about five shots to kill the target if they have good force resistance and a deflector going, maybe less if they don't heal at all. However when you get sniped you can hide, and heal then look for your target, once you creep up on him he's probably going to be toast. The problem is, if you can see your target then he can see you too :D
Apocalypsox
31-05-06, 22:49
I've fought 4 snipers all died without making a kill, Mainly because when you snipe it takes about five shots to kill the target if they have good force resistance and a deflector going, maybe less if they don't heal at all. However when you get sniped you can hide, and heal then look for your target, once you creep up on him he's probably going to be toast. The problem is, if you can see your target then he can see you too :D
other snipers are stupid. ive specced 90 vehicle skill for a scout glider so i can get where you CANT SHOOT BACK :D
other snipers are stupid. ive specced 90 vehicle skill for a scout glider so i can get where you CANT SHOOT BACK :D
aka an exploit.
Silly noob.
Clive tombstone
01-06-06, 00:11
Funny I dont think getting to a mountain, campin out with a sniper rifle, and pickin off the bucket heads would be coned as "sploitin", specially if your already using a "broken" vehicle :D
Apocalypsox
01-06-06, 01:40
Funny I dont think getting to a mountain, campin out with a sniper rifle, and pickin off the bucket heads would be coned as "sploitin", specially if your already using a "broken" vehicle :D
pssh!!!!!
and Crazy your a nub. ive talked to a GM once and using a GLIDER To get on the hills is not an exploit.
They said they removed that from the list of exploits at the start of NC2.
pssh!!!!!
and Crazy your a nub. ive talked to a GM once and using a GLIDER To get on the hills is not an exploit.
Being somewhere where you cant get shot back at sounds like an exploit to me. I think the actual words used were;
"If you are in a position where you can hit an enemy but they can't hit you. (This does not include cover, becuase in theory you have to come out from the cover to shoot.)"
Though I'm probably off a little or a lot. My point is if you sit where I cant get you, I'll hire a bloody glider driver and a glider and come and get you in a bloody glider bomber! BLOODY BLOODY Kids! Still sounds like an exploit though.
pssh!!!!!
and Crazy your a nub. ive talked to a GM once and using a GLIDER To get on the hills is not an exploit.
I'm not talking about standing on a hill and coming out of cover from behind it to shoot, what I'm talking about is your choice of words, being somewhere where you can shoot and they cant hit back is an exploit.
I'm not talking about standing on a hill and coming out of cover from behind it to shoot, what I'm talking about is your choice of words, being somewhere where you can shoot and they cant hit back is an exploit.
Only if it's impossible for the attacker to be targetted. In this case it just takes someone else with a glider to go up there and kick his ass.
This thread isn't about exploits though so please stay on topic.
N
So ya according to you by the time you unstealth at 500m from your target, then take about 3 seconds (im being generous) to zoom, lock, and fire, your target has already both spotted you nearly instantly (becouse everyone is always looking for snipers at 500m) and crossed 450m so their pistol can get a lock and fired upon you? :wtf:
You'll appreciate that it is very difficult to discuss specifics, for example not everyone is going to be able to snipe someone at maximum range (500m). So yeah it depends, know I look at my statement again I should have included more factors, but nm.
I was just purely making my point as others already have that the range IS a problem with rifles.
With the new tools being added, Is it possible to add maybe a second QB or 3 MAX ? Some rifles are bugged atm, i can fire a whole clip on a fairly low ranked mob and it will not register all my hits sometimes. There is no AOE rifle, and there is no damage increase with range. The current first love has very bad range and i barely can use it as even capped it aims really awefull compared to a healing light.
I think sniper's should have a speical stealth device that hides them from view, unless you get within say 100m of them. They would be able to fire while using this tool but if they have to move it unstealths them, thats the only way you could truely snipe in this game.
I think sniper's should have a speical stealth device that hides them from view, unless you get within say 100m of them. They would be able to fire while using this tool but if they have to move it unstealths them, thats the only way you could truely snipe in this game.
Actually that would be the pure definition of "cheap". Give the riflers several weapons with projectiles being hard to notice, limited muzzle flash and no swirl. (Currently, only the silent hunter matches the given profile, any other weapon marks the user at a long distance already. Even with the swirl removed, the projectiles are a great way to announce your location... )
Pack those guys in a camo-PA and give them stealth actuators, thus they are already more powerful in sneaking and stealthing than in any FPS. The unexperienced sniper will go down fast, but the smart one, using bushes or grass for cover, hiding behind the ridge of a hill and just moving up far enough to barely see the enemy, will be quite some challenge to pin down.
But it don't work like this in neocron, you already seen in the local list so hiding is pointless. All people need to do to find you in get close to your location to see you in local, then pass there mouse over your position to get a hitbox.
Thats why any good Sniper would shoot a couple of times then stealth away to another spot before they got close.
Sniping isn't supposed to be easy, but its rewarding when you manage it.
Thats why any good Sniper would shoot a couple of times then stealth away to another spot before they got close.
Though, honestly, if you relocate before doing the kill in NC, the target will heal up and you start at square one again. If sniping should be effective in NC, the sniper has to be able to do the kill before the target is able to locate you and move into range.
Rifles tend to be better then pistols as far as firepower, IRL.They can have bigger clips, more range and bigger bullets(5.56 vs 9mm).
Low tech and high tech weapons should be the same in game as well.
No pistol should hold more ammo then rifles in general.
APU
Cannon - They are harder to aim.
Melee = Rifle
Pistol = hybrid
actually most rifle ammo has a smaller diameter than pistol ammo (as you said yourself 5.56mm vs 9mm) :lol:
actually most rifle ammo has a smaller diameter than pistol ammo (as you said yourself 5.56mm vs 9mm) :lol:
True... but when also considering the length of the complete shell and the ammount of explosive charge behind it, the rifle is packing more.
Rifles tend to be better then pistols as far as firepower, IRL.They can have bigger clips, more range and bigger bullets(5.56 vs 9mm).
Low tech and high tech weapons should be the same in game as well.
No pistol should hold more ammo then rifles in general.
And while you write up a collection of advantages of rifles, in RL pistols are actually more in use than rifles. This leads us to the conclusion, that pistols also have to have some advantages.
In RL these are:
- easier to carry around. (No matter in NC, you're not encumbered by a rifle strapped to your back, you can jump and crawl fine, no matter which and how many weapons you carry around.)
- easier to maneuver with indoors. (Not true in NC, you can turn with the same speed, no matter what weapon you have. Even with a rifle in your hands you can turn easily within a doorframe in NC. In RL you'd be badly handicapped. )
- not as threatening appearance. (A policeman with a pistol is "normal", if you see one with a rifle, you smell trouble. Holds no truth in NC. )
- can be carried concealed and smuggled with ease, compared to a long weapon. (Holds no truth in NC. A rifle in your inventory is as invisible as a pistol, a pistol in your quickbelt is as obvious as a rifle on your back... )
So, while the advantages of rifles are easily modeled in NC, the disadvantages are actually hard to implement. Thus you have two choices:
1. implement it anyways, basically handicaping pistols so badly that they could as well be removed from the game.
2. implement weapons in a way that they are balanced in the game and all of them can be used sensibly, ignoring the big differences of the weapons in RL.
The second approach seems quite advantageous for me and still and considering that a good deal of the weapons in NC are enegy weapons, where the whole dynamics and way of functionality are quite different to current firearms, it's not even breaking logic. The longer barrel simply gives rifles an advantage in focusing, also the longer distance between barrel and stock allows improved aiming, resulting in higher effective range of the rifle, damage output and magazine sizes may be quite similar...
actually most rifle ammo has a smaller diameter than pistol ammo (as you said yourself 5.56mm vs 9mm) :lol:
In real most rifles holds 2x the ammo of most pistols.
You cant even think about comparing a rifle's range vs pistol's range.
The fact are that the rifles are superior to pistols in everything exept maneovrability and concealment. Those 2 are v strong RL advantages but for NC it means a 'slowdown' effect fo when ur char runs with weapon out.
It also means you need more WEP skill to cap TC rifles then TC pistols.
Pistols = initial runspeed
Rifles = initial runspeed -?%
This is how it is and it works great like that.
The fact you have to put lots of WEP also makes it harder to make a rifler, especialy for PEs and especialy for TC PEs.
That being said i think its clear enough : Rifles > Pistol
In real most rifles holds 2x the ammo of most pistols.
You are comparing the high-ammo assault rifle (else you would not refer to "most rifles"), usually holding 20 to 35 shots in the magazine, to the usual handgun with 6 to 20 shots in the magazine.
[I am aware of the 100 shot C-Magazine for any rifle with Stanag magazines like the M16, but this is not what i call "usual". Anyways, i could also show you some nice SMG-conversions which give them even more ammo, but they are definitely not "usual" and way off topic. ]
As soon as your reference changes from assault rifles to rifles in general, you also have to take into account:
- hunting rifles, where 4 to 8 shots are not unusual
- bolt loaders, where again 4 to 10 shots are common
- sniper rifles, which usually are bolt loaders, see above
- semi-auto sniper rifles, where the usual magazine size is between 10 and 20 shots.
- double barrel shotguns
[...]
I still don't account your statement as wrong, most of the mentioned rifle types are of no importance to gameplay, the only rifles we seriously expect a runner to pack are the assault rifle, where your statement is true and the sniper rifle, which often holds noticeably less ammo than you claimed.
But i also dare to remind you, the cathegory "pistols" in terms of Neocron includes the SMG, where magazine sizes vary between 25 to 40 bullets.
That being said i think its clear enough : Rifles > Pistol
And again for you: If they implement this, they could simply remove pistols from the game as well. Would save them a lot of time, since your concept downgrades pistols to a feature which won't be used any more.
In a game environment, rifles show off by range, striking power should be similar.
Oh, also for your info, as you love to rely on RL-examples, the actual effect on a target is similar for rifles and pistols at the moment. Sure, a rifle bullet holds more energy, with lower energy the trajectory gets a bigger arc and accuracy suffers. Though, the higher impulse of the rifle projectile has little meaning for the effect on the target, the actual ammount of energy transfered and damage inflicted on the body is quite similar. (Actually, pistols often even do more damage, the slimmer rifle projectile tends to penetrate the body with comparatively little effect, unless it fragments or starts to tumble in the body. )
Thus, based on RL-facts, i could even demand Pistols > Rifles. Which of course also is ridiculous since it would make rifles a useless weapon class in the game.
Its becouse in real life you dont need retardedly powerfull bullets to kill someone. All power does is add penetration. I can gurantue if i shoot you in the torsoe with a 40cal monster you will drop just as fast as if i shot you with some 9mm.
Rifles are much better then pistols IRL, but in a game like neocron balance is more important then being realistic.
Dont get me wrong, there is anormal shit like 100 round clips or 2km range on some rifle, but there also is .50 pistols. Machine guns are even crazier.
Its just that a rifle offers more(usually) as far as range+clip size.
Its just that a rifle offers more(usually) as far as range+clip size.
Range: yes.
Magazine size: Debateable. Many handguns have bigger magazines than sniper rifles. Also, the skill "pistol combat" in NC includes SMGs. (Take a look at the Liberator, as best example. There are several other pistols in game using bursts, so they can be considered SMGs. ) SMGs generally have magazines with an adequate number of shots to assault rifles.
Anyways, the most important point was already mentioned more than once:
[...] in a game like neocron balance is more important then being realistic.
Below is a list of weapon types, showing how we consider the damage output of these weapon types (highest to lowest). The damage output is the amount of damage over a certain period of time. For example, long range low-tech rifles like sniper rifles deal a lot of damage per shot, but their overall damage output is one of the lowest because of the advantage provided by their very long range.
I fail to see where drones fall into the charts here. If it hasn't been brought up elsewhere, I'd like to know whats being changed, if anything, in regards to drones.
Safunte...they said the drones would fall into their respective categories or very closly.
Ie. RK drone with heavy weapons....Assualt...with rifle/pistols...etc etc. Whatever damage type the drones do...they do damage similar to regular weapons of that type.
Single "Shot" Damage
1. APU
2. Cannons
3. Melee
4. Rifles
5. Pistols
Range
1. Rifles (1000)
2. Cannons (750)
3. APU (500)
4. Pistols (300)
5. Melee
Firing Frequency
1. Pistols (120 Shots/Min.)
2. Rifles (90 Shots /Min.)
3. APU (60 Casts/Min.)
4. Melee (60 Hits/Min.)
5. Cannons (40 Shots /Min.)
Aim Speed
1. APU
2. Pistol
3. Rifle
4. Cannon
Ammo Capacity
1. Pistols (20)
2. Rifles (16)
3. Cannons (12)
So lets see, Range is the ONLY advantage a Rifle has and that is not an advantage due to the game engines clipping range. Ok per single shot Rifles do more damage, but pistols do more because of their larger ammo capacity plus their faster firing frequency. Oh and you get no run speed reduction for using Pistols or Psi modules.
So I ask you, why would anyone want to use a Rifle? They serve no purpose!
:mad:
Its becouse in real life you dont need retardedly powerfull bullets to kill someone. All power does is add penetration. I can gurantue if i shoot you in the torsoe with a 40cal monster you will drop just as fast as if i shot you with some 9mm.
if you need to incapacitate a target with one hit it does matter what kind of bullet you use. read up on wound ballistics and stopping power, and you'll see there's big differences between .45 auto and 9mm for example. its for sure not only about penetration. I would quote some stuff, but I dont think this belongs in this forum .. we're here to have fun, not to discuss how to kill/incapacitate a human being in the most efficient way...
[...]but in a game like neocron balance is more important then being realistic.
I totally agree
Its becouse in real life you dont need retardedly powerfull bullets to kill someone. All power does is add penetration. I can gurantue if i shoot you in the torsoe with a 40cal monster you will drop just as fast as if i shot you with some 9mm.[...]I just recently saw a Video from US Sniper with a .50 (the one that can stop armored vehicles). Impact was like a grenade or something exploding inside the victims with them flying about 2 or 3 meters high and splattering in all directions. It was arms and legs flying around.
Then you say some little 9mm Pistol has the same killing power? :wtf:
(I'll get you the link when you're interested when im home again. PM.)
While it's true that there are differences between which weapon and which caliber is used on a target, the actuall rati