Weapon Discussion Refinement

[Thanatos]

Overview and special considerations


Overview:

In the last post we presented the general factors influencing the weapon balancing – however we’d like to present them again, this time going into more detail:

Influence Factors for Weapon Balancing:
-Damage-Output (per shot)
-Aim precision (size of the reticule)
-Aim speed
-Firing frequency
-Range
-Capacity (clip size)
-Ammo usage per shot (ammo, stamina, PSI)

When calculating the damage per shot, time is being factored in, meaning the duration of a shot or the duration of the reloading process.

We have also weighed the weapon types by these factors – the first item in a list always represents 100%.

Damage-Output (per shot):
-APU Weapons (100%)
-Cannons (90%)
-Rifle (80%)
-Pistol (75%)
-Melee Weapons (65%)

Damage-Output (per time unit):
-APU Weapons
-Melee Weapons
-Cannons
-Pistols
-Rifles

There is a bonus system that mainly applies to damage output (but also to some other factors), which applies to all weapon types:
-Bonus: HighTech (+ 7.5%)
-Bonus: Rare (+ 10.0 %)
-Bonus: Epic (+ 12.5 %)
-Bonus: WoC (+ 15.0 %)

The bonus for high-tech is additive – for the other statuses only one applies.

Aim precision (size of the reticule – Min | Max):
-APU Weapons (1.50 | 3.00)
-Pistols (1.75 | 4.00)
-Rifles (2.00 | 5.00)
-Cannons (3.00 | 8.00)

Please note: higher values are worse.

This is based on the following reticule sizes:
-Minimal: ~ 1.50 * size
-Maximal: ~ 8.00 * size

Aim speed (Seconds - Min | Max):
-Melee Weapons (deactivated)
-PPU Weapons (deactivated)
-APU Weapons (0.25 | 1.00)
-Pistols (0.50 | 2.00)
-Rifles (1.00 | 3.50)
-Cannons (2.00 | 5.00)

Please note: higher values are worse.

We are assuming the following time periods to zero in the reticule:
-Minimal: ~ 0.25 seconds
-Maximal: ~ 5 seconds

Firing frequency (in shot/strike/cast per minute – Min | Max):
-Pistol (30 | 120)
-Rifle (30 | 90)
-APU (30 | 60)
-Melee (20 | 60)
-Cannon (15 | 30)

Range (visual range – Min | Max):
-Rifle (50% Visual range | 100% Visual range)
-Cannon (40% Visual range | 80% Visual range)
-APU Weapons (30% Visual range | 60% Visual range)
-Pistols (25% Visual range | 50% Visual range)
-Melee Weapons (striking distance)

Capacity (Bullets per clip):
-Cannons (up to 40)
-Rifles (up to 30)
-Pistols (up to 25)

Ammo consumption (per shot):
For some guns, the ammo consumption is more or less dictated by their design – which can influence their damage-output, clip size and firing frequency. The consumption of PSI energy or stamina has to be determined on a case by case basis – a general rule is difficult.

Closing remark:
All these values are to be considered as guidelines! It may very well be that some weapons go above or below these guidelines. It is our goal to have a value system that allows us to properly evaluate weapons – during the testserver phase we will then be able to fine tune weapons (or whole weapon groups) based on those values.

Balancing of the weapon type: Pistols

Test results:
These tests were performed with a DEV-character on an unprotected NPC – the results aren’t very realistic, but they provide a good basis for the relations between the weapons!


Weapon: TechLevel: Damage (shot): Damage (1 Min.):
Beggar Nailgun 1 13 1040
Colt Budget 9 32 2560
Laser Pistol 18 47 11280
Freezer Pistol 40 53 4770
Automatic Pistol 41 57 13680
Gatlin Pistol 59 67 16080
Plasma Pistol 68 114 18240
Fusion Pistol 71 97 17460
RayGun Pistol 74 289 26010
Crossbow Pistol 100 721 64890

It is very easy to see that the freezer pistol is very underpowered – the raygun pistol and the crossbow are too strong. The re-calculations of the weapon properties in their current state look like this (please read the comment at the end):

Freezer Pistol (TechLevel 40, HighTech)
Damage-Output: 41.292 (3716.280 Damage per minute)
Aiming-Speed: 1.83 Seconds
Target-Size: 3.74 * size of crosshair
Frequency: 90 Shots per minute
Range: 39 % Viewsize
Clip-Size: 30/1 (Singleshot)

Gatlin Pistol (TechLevel 59)
Damage-Output: 20.683 (6403.86 Damage per minute)
Aiming-Speed: 1.61 Seconds
Target-Size: 3.41 * size of crosshair
Frequency: 240 Shots per minute
Range: 43 % Viewsize
Clip-Size: 40/4 (Burst)

Fusion Pistol (TechLevel 71, HighTech)
Damage-Output: 40.361 (7264.99 Damage per minute)
Aiming-Speed: 1.46 Seconds
Target-Size: 3.2 * size of crosshair
Frequency: 180 Shots per minute
Range: 45 % Viewsize
Clip-Size: 30/2 (Burst)

Juggernaut Crossbow Pistol (TechLevel 100, HighTech, WoC)
Damage-Output: 101.52 (9136.8 Damage per minute)
Aiming-Speed: 1.13 Seconds
Target-Size: 2.69 * size of crosshair
Frequency: 90 Shots per minute
Range: 51 % Viewsize
Clip-Size: 30/1 (Singleshot)

Explanation:
These values are the min/max values, meaning that any influence from the player is not considered. The firing frequency and clip sizes are still unchanged – these values are still being checked and will be adjusted if need be. We wanted to demonstrate the calculation of the weapon behavior first.

Clip size and single shot frequency are determined according to the weapon type. Aim speed, target size and range are determined by the weapon group and TechLevel (with some specific adjustments). Lastly, the damage-output is calculated – this is also determined by weapon type and TechLevel (plus the specific bonuses). In addition to this, the frequency is used as correcting factor, allowing the definition of the damage-output over time.

[Galileo]

There is a bonus system that mainly applies to damage output (but also to some other factors), which applies to all weapon types:
-Bonus: HighTech (+ 7.5%)
-Bonus: Rare (+ 10.0 %)
-Bonus: Epic (+ 12.5 %)
-Bonus: WoC (+ 15.0 %)

The bonus for high-tech is additive – for the other statuses only one applies.



So xbow, being a hi-tech WOC gets +22.5%?

As you have stated in your tests, the xbow is overpowered. I like the bonus system, but again (it's been said so many times) WoC should not be a requirement for PvP.

The bonus' above are a great idea, I just wonder what will happen to all the poor low tech guys. No more TL92 pistoleers either.

Can you explain if the stats you have given in the tests are using these values or using current in game values please?

Cheers

[Dribble Joy]

Damage-Output (per time unit):
-APU Weapons
-Melee Weapons
-Cannons
-Pistols
-Rifles
Eh... fine really...


There is a bonus system that mainly applies to damage output (but also to some other factors), which applies to all weapon types:
-Bonus: HighTech (+ 7.5%)
-Bonus: Rare (+ 10.0 %)
-Bonus: Epic (+ 12.5 %)
Makes vague sense. Epics are better, and high techs need to represent the skilling in TC.
Not sure about the rare bit though....

-Bonus: WoC (+ 15.0 %)

Big fat hairy NO!
Seriously. WoC should be of no performance advantage.

Aim precision (size of the reticule – Min | Max):
-APU Weapons (1.50 | 3.00)
-Pistols (1.75 | 4.00)
-Rifles (2.00 | 5.00)
-Cannons (3.00 | 8.00)

Hmmm...... maybe....

Aim speed (Seconds - Min | Max):
-Melee Weapons (deactivated)
-PPU Weapons (deactivated)
-APU Weapons (0.25 | 1.00)
-Pistols (0.50 | 2.00)
-Rifles (1.00 | 3.50)
-Cannons (2.00 | 5.00)

Again.... not sure. I'd prefer it to be based on skilling than hard mechanics. A tank with 178% aiming on a weapon should aim as fast as a pistol with 178%.
This is a skill based game and as such there should be a level playing field across the classes.

Firing frequency (in shot/strike/cast per minute – Min | Max):
-Pistol (30 | 120)
-Rifle (30 | 90)
-APU (30 | 60)
-Melee (20 | 60)
-Cannon (15 | 30)
Again it's dependant on weapon type.

Range (visual range – Min | Max):
-Rifle (50% Visual range | 100% Visual range)
-Cannon (40% Visual range | 80% Visual range)
-APU Weapons (30% Visual range | 60% Visual range)
-Pistols (25% Visual range | 50% Visual range)
-Melee Weapons (striking distance)
Well.. I'd like the pistol max a lot closer.

Capacity (Bullets per clip):
-Cannons (up to 40)
-Rifles (up to 30)
-Pistols (up to 25)
Irrelevant, depends on weapon type.

Blah.

Dmg/time should be TL based (with any factors such as hightech or epic thrown in).

[calim]

Aim precision (size of the reticule – Min | Max):
-APU Weapons (1.50 | 3.00)
-Pistols (1.75 | 4.00)
-Rifles (2.00 | 5.00)
-Cannons (3.00 | 8.00)

Please note: higher values are worse.

This is based on the following reticule sizes:
-Minimal: ~ 1.50 * size
-Maximal: ~ 8.00 * size

Aim speed (Seconds - Min | Max):
-Melee Weapons (deactivated)
-PPU Weapons (deactivated)
-APU Weapons (0.25 | 1.00)
-Pistols (0.50 | 2.00)
-Rifles (1.00 | 3.50)
-Cannons (2.00 | 5.00)

There is something i don't understand.
Rifles are used with two hands but is heavier / less easy to manipulate than pistol. So i can understand rifle's aim speed is lower that pistol. But what about aim precision ???? Once you locked something with a rifle in me sense you are more accurate than a pistol !

[John Doe]

@Calim: Good point - I think we can switch pistols and rifles in aiming-precision. Any other opinions to that point?

Testresults: As we have mentioned before - the list of pistols are tested with a DEV-Character on an unprotected NPC (these are capped values).

The specific (balanced) pistols are theoretical values without any skilleffects. Check the relativ values of these pistols and you will see that the X-Bow isn't that overpowered - it will be strong but not "uber".

If you compare the old gatlin pistol and the old x-bow to their new versions:
Gatlin Pistol: 100 % Damage
Crossbow Pistol: 403 % Damage

After Balancing
Gatlin Pistol: 100 % Damage
Crossbow Pistol: 142 % Damage

WoC-Bonus:
If everybody wants that WoC has no pvp-relevance we can restrict this to "Epic" as max.

[Mighty Max]

Are these boni accumulative, or does the stronger boni override the lower?
I.e. does a hightech rare give +17.5% or does it give +10%

[Apocalypsox]

Once again my problem with this...notice how APU weapons are at the top of damage per shot...and damage per time limit...

just strange to me..

[Zheo]

Stop making WOC a requirement for PVP, Dirus hated it and agreed with what I and most people said "WOC should NOT be a requirement for pvp" It should be an add on something extra. Remember that for some players our mummy's and daddy's don't pay for everything and we don't get summer holidays or live at home perminantly so we can't spend every waking minute playing to spec woc!
It also makes rares pointless as they are a go between. And another point is that there are only a handful of woc weapons.

[giga191]

Once again my problem with this...notice how APU weapons are at the top of damage per shot...and damage per time limit...

just strange to me.. so what? they kill faster, they die faster, it's just another style of play.

I predict that melee will ******** everyone for these reasons:
Tanks have good defence
Most PvP takes place when both players are very close to each other
They don't require aiming
They do the second highest amount of damage

Possibly not, but just a thought

[Bishop Yutani]

Until i dig into the post, I would say my initial reaction is that the APU looks like its getting a lot of bonuses. (and thats "bonuses", Mighty Max :p )

John Doe: I agree with Calim's point.

[John Wu]

Again.... not sure. I'd prefer it to be based on skilling than hard mechanics. A tank with 178% aiming on a weapon should aim as fast as a pistol with 178%.
This is a skill based game and as such there should be a level playing field across the classes.
I agree.

talking about giving apus the need to aim like other classes too and then proposing 0.25 seconds for apu compared to 4 seconds for the tank is just hilarious. thats eight times as long for the tank to aim. 0.25 seconds is as good as not having to aim at all.

with pistols you are fast - thats your advantage in close quarters combat.
with rifles you are a little slower than a pistol user - thats your disadvantage.
with cannons you are slower than both - clear disadvantage.

no need to handicap the aiming - like Dribble Joy said, there should be a level playing field when it comes to aiming.

thats the easiest way to balance it, since people with different skills will play the characters - should one decide which class to play from his ability to move the mouse? no, he should decide which class he wants to play in a rpg sense.

things like aiming need to be unified.

[calim]

err, it's because of realism. A heavy cannon is not as easy to handle as a pistol ... ( look at luky luke !). If you have an heavy weapon on your shoulder i think it's normal to say it's a bit longer to aim precisely. (but you hit *hard*).

I understand it's not a realism based game :)

[John Wu]

I understand it's not a realism based game :)
great - we would have to remove all psi based shit if it was ;)

[Safunte]

how about, pistols are easier to cap aiming on, rifles are harder, and hc weapons are slightly harder than rifles (more more dependant on HC than weplore) and then you can make them all aim the same based on how close they are to that lovely aiming cap on their weapons? Oh that goes for reticule size as well.

As for the WoC bonus... 12.5% sounds reasonable, but i'd rather it was more like 11%. this would make it a 1.1x the rare bonus, nothing huge but its still an advantage. you've gotta remember its still a t-c weapon so if its a higher bonus for woc, it would be getting about 22.5% bonus, which is rediculous. and if something is rare/woc/epic it should only get half of the T-C bonus added on, if you start throwing in too many cumulative bonuses it starts making sweet point setups which completely blow... we want more difference in classes.

[Apocalypsox]

so what? they kill faster, they die faster, it's just another style of play.

I predict that melee will ******** everyone for these reasons:
Tanks have good defence
Most PvP takes place when both players are very close to each other
They don't require aiming
They do the second highest amount of damage

Possibly not, but just a thought

yeah but its the fact that they have to stay so close...

[Safunte]

and remember, they do hte lowest damage per hit... its just damage over time... so they have to have some damn good aim

[unreal]

I'm not quite sure where to begin commenting on what's been said here. It's extremely disappointing that APU's still come out on top in regards to damage, damage over time, and of course, the minimal amount of aiming they're going to have. Everything basically.

I hope the defense of monks (they mostly have uber resists thanks to their armour) is going to be weakened even more to adjust for their godlike damage output. At least the proposed foreign buff changes will help with that, but at a first glimpse I don't see it making much of a change, because those foreign buffs will be just as weak on the other classes too, which if anything, it means that APU's will be even more powerful than they are today. I guess we'll wait and see.

At the very least though, APU spells should have identical aiming speed as pistols, to make things more fair.If everybody wants that WoC has no pvp-relevance we can restrict this to "Epic" as max.I don't think there should be a damage/offensive bonus such as the ones suggested here, especially regarding the WOC bonus, that's just way too much of an advantage. I would like to see epics (especially the TT prototype Rifle and Cannon - their damage is awful) given a bonus in some way. At the moment, in general, they're mostly used for levelling until you can use something better.

I do think WOC should stay as a requirement for certain items and weaponry. It peeves me off when people say "WOC shouldn't be a requirement for PvP", it currently isn't a requirement for PvP. You can do just as well with an xray Executioner as you can with a Crossbow.

The ones who keep whining for them to not have a WOC requirement are the ones who can't be bothered to level and get the required experience, then farm the Ceres Labs for a WOC disk, then pay the 2million for the first WOC level. I don't think items such as the Ceres Handgun, the Ceres Rifle, and the Crossbow should be turned into epics. They deserve that extra effort to use them. It's the whole reason those of us that WANT to use them have gone through that tedious process.

If they were turned into epics, certain weapons won't see the light of day. Executioners wouldn't be used for example. Why use an Executioner if you can use the Crossbow and Slasher combination?

PS. Will those Ceres weapons be modified to become worth using? My Pistol Spy has 181PC and 106WEP (with Pistol Booster 1). 181PC is pretty much as far as you can go in regards to being a viable Pistol Spy that doesn't rely upon level 2 or 3 buffs from buttpluggs. 105% is just about the best you can get on the damage stat, and because it's a TL113 pistol, there's no chance of capping damage with those skills. With the damage capped, it's a fairly decent weapon even though piercing doesn't work too well against most people.

There's something a little strange about them. You shoot someone with SD without a heal running, and you'll see maybe 20 health come off them. If you shoot them repeatedly it just seems to shred them to pieces very quickly. Even to PPU's that are fully buffed. I got a few PPU's to stand still, with all buffs and a holy heal running, and it would take their health down steadily, whereas they would typically outheal several other weapons at once.

Edit: I just noticed the thing about clip capacity. From the looks of it, Pistols are going to be totally screwed over. Fast shot frequency, Low damage per shot, low damage over time, and lowest clip capacity. Hopefully not going to have lower range than Pistols have at the moment - it's already bad enough trying to hit someone at Medium range without misfiring, even though certain people say otherwise.

[calim]

great - we would have to remove all psi based shit if it was ;)

and then, what is your answer about what i said ? :p Do you find it totally foolish ? :angel:

[Pantho]

Unreal, hmmm imagin in real life trying to hit some1 at medium range with a small energy maching gun/pistol

[Bredahl]

PS. Will those Ceres weapons be modified to become worth using? My Pistol Spy has 181PC and 106WEP (with Pistol Booster 1). 181PC is pretty much as far as you can go in regards to being a viable Pistol Spy that doesn't rely upon level 2 or 3 buffs from buttpluggs. 105% is just about the best you can get on the damage stat, and because it's a TL113 pistol, there's no chance of capping damage with those skills. With the damage capped, it's a fairly decent weapon even though piercing doesn't work too well against most people.


ey? my pistol spy has 182PC and 109WEP and arent using pistol booster.. and im doing pretty well without a PPU buttplug.. im getting about 116% dmg with the barretta iirc

[John Wu]

and then, what is your answer about what i said ? :p Do you find it totally foolish ? :angel:
my answer is that I agree, this is not about realism .. so balance > realism. not totally foolish, but I dont like that idea.

[calim]

There are realistics aspects in the game that remains. If it's to be totally not realistic, just remove reticles for all ^^ If we decide to make the "aim" aspect to be realistic, i think it would be good to make it completely.

[Asurmen Spec Op]

WoC-Bonus:
If everybody wants that WoC has no pvp-relevance we can restrict this to "Epic" as max.
Though giving woc a bonus seems a good idea at start the way people play this game is to squeeze every little advantage possible, a 15% bonus effectivly makes WoC a requirement for PVP. I really dont think people want to see this( I personally dont). WoC Should be something that shows you as important in some way, not the terminator.

[Dribble Joy]

WoC-Bonus:
If everybody wants that WoC has no pvp-relevance we can restrict this to "Epic" as max.
Given that epic weapons are generally low TL, their additional dmg isn't too much of an issue, it adds more viable weapons to the list capped players can use. WoC on the other hand should be completely indistinguishable from regular weapons (and I'd prefer the rare bonus to go too).

[Asurmen Spec Op]

Given that epic weapons are generally low TL, their additional dmg isn't too much of an issue, it adds more viable weapons to the list capped players can use. WoC on the other hand should be completely indistinguishable from regular weapons (and I'd prefer the rare bonus to go too).
I concur with DJ, I would love to see rares not be requiped for PVP anymore, It would make me truely happy :)

[Pantho]

EPR PE ftw.

[Asurmen Spec Op]

EPR PE ftw.
yay, Im still ftw :P

[Dribble Joy]

Any weapon from like... tl 80 to tl 105 should be equally viable for a PE. Be it rare, low tech or high tech WoC.

[Asurmen Spec Op]

Any weapon from like... tl 80 to tl 105 should be equally viable for a PE. Be it rare, low tech or high tech WoC.
That would be good, that puts it alot more on preference of weapon by the player instead of damage

[Dribble Joy]

Exactly. Ensure that the offence/defence of any weapon selection is viable and you have an enormous scope for variation.
And 'open-ended' skill system is needed too.

[Jezebel]

Giving no bonuses on Rares means no true need of rares and you could say bye to all the market of rare parts. It's also true that giving a signifiant bonus to WoC weapons means that who don't have time to reach such a skill level will not stande a chance in pvp (or will have serious problem).
I think rares should be better than non rares in damage and handling, while WoC could have something like light bonuses and REALLY DIFFERENT model, so many ppl who'd like to collect weapons could do it and WoC disc will still have a market... economy is a part of the game you should'nt forget.

About Apu damage... you must consider how higher damage/better aiming will interact with shorter range and worst defense of the game...

[Mighty Max]

Giving no bonuses on Rares means no true need of rares and you could say bye to all the market of rare parts.

The boni(bonuses) rares have and like i understand this will still have even without the extra 10% bonus, is that you can construct them above 94% in its stats without mods.

Or is this gonna change Thanatos/John Doe?

PS:ahh and yes, i noticed the answer to my last question

[Darkana]

Hmm, if I understood this correctly, hightech rare guns get a total bonus of +17.5% to damage, and hightech WoC guns 22.5%. That's 5% difference in favor of _hightech_ WoC guns, lowtech WoC end up with 15% (less than an equal TL _hightech_ rare gun). This means the Xbow will deal, at least on paper, 5% more damage than a Judge on an unprotected target.

All this doesn't cover damage types, the damage spread on more or less common resist + armor setups, the damage distribution on the body parts and other behaviours guns show in the current gameplay, all things which can add or remove damage% in the total picture.

Furthermore, if you add the players itself, you have their skill in handling specific guns and characters, playstyles, lag/ping times, FPS, input device behaviour and so on which all influence the total outcome and are hard to measure (means 5% can get rendered irrelevant easily).

[calim]

Any weapon from like... tl 80 to tl 105 should be equally viable for a PE. Be it rare, low tech or high tech WoC.

agree on the principe (especially lowtech!), but i don't see the point with no bonuses on rare or WoC ...
As we speak about TL, it means "dex/str requirement" ... If between tl 85 and 105 this requirement changes while the weapon is equally viable, there is a problem :/

Maybe the solution is to fix the dex/str requirement for a class of weapon between TL80 and TL105.

[John Doe]

Based on the feedback received so far, we’d like to adjust the following points of our proposal:

Bonus System for Damage-Output:
- Bonus: HighTech + 5.0 % (additive)
- Bonus: Rare + 7.5 % (exclusive)
- Bonus: Epic + 9.5 % (exclusive)
- Bonus: WoC + 10.0 % (exclusive)

This would give a HighTech-WoC weapon a bonus damage of 15%. The bonus for HighTech weapons is based on the fact that more skill points have to be invested to meet the fairly high T-C requirements.

Aim precision (Reticule – Min | Max):
- APU Weapons 1.50 3.00
- Rifle 1.50 3.50
- Pistol 1.50 4.00
- Cannon 1.50 5.00

This would allow all weapon types to reach the same precision – their starting point would however be different (which would also make the aiming process varyingly long). Furthermore, the rifles switched place with pistols.

Aim speed (Seconds - Min | Max):
- APU Weapons 0.75 1.50
- Pistol 0.75 2.25
- Rifle 1.00 3.00
- Cannon 2.00 4.50

The values for aim speed are much closer together now – the difference between APU modules and pistols is also much smaller. Under these conditions, a Tank would approximately aim 3 times as long as an APU.

[calim]

it's seems way better to me !

[unreal]

ey? my pistol spy has 182PC and 109WEP and arent using pistol booster.. and im doing pretty well without a PPU buttplug.. im getting about 116% dmg with the barretta iircTry looking at your info window again. I said "105% is just about the best you can get on the damage stat" (ie, the value listed under object stats), and not how much you cap it (ie. the value listed under details).

I have a 5 slot Ceres Handgun, with all four mods (the 3 low tech stat boosting mods and an ultima), which makes it 105/120/120/119 - and with the skills that my Spy has, I only get 167% damage. There's always a big difference between capping your weapon, and not capping it. If you're only getting 116% damage on yours, then that basically proves my point. With 116% damage it definitely won't be a viable PvP weapon, and nor will it be worth using to level with.

Anyway, carrying on with the whole bonuses idea, I would rather see item-based bonuses for WOC (so you'll be able to mix and match what bonuses you'll be getting, if there's more than one available), such as various WOC gloves that give bonuses to hacking, or aiming. Even WOC pants to aid with endurance. Bonuses to relatively passive skills won't give too much of an advantage away.

Edit: Hmm I totally missed John Doe's post somehow. I like most of what's been proposed but I'm just wondering whether or not the Pistol precision nerf is going to have a large effect on us Pistol users when it comes to targetting people more than a few meters away.

[Argent]

WoC-Bonus:
If everybody wants that WoC has no pvp-relevance we can restrict this to "Epic" as max.

This was one of the main rules of WoC set by KK, it would be extremely stupid if it was ignored now.
------------------------------

The ranges seem a bit silly, rifles should have more range cover than anything else (ie. cannons should have maybe 70% max range or be very unaimable at long ranges). More postage once the information sinks in....

[giga191]

This was one of the main rules of WoC set by KK, it would be extremely stupid if it was ignored now.
------------------------------

The ranges seem a bit silly, rifles should have more range cover than anything else (ie. cannons should have maybe 70% max range or be very unaimable at long ranges). More postage once the information sinks in.... yes yes yes, and they also said the doy would be released a few months into retail, and that we would have mechs

[awkward silence]

I support this except not the +15% on WOC

Dont make WOC a req for pvp thankyou =)

[Bishop Yutani]

i've written 3 posts in this thread, but only published 1. How's that for restraint?

I like the proposed edits much better than the originals. But having seen how the APU works, combined with their Spy-like INT, looks my best chance for a great tradeskiller/PvPer.

[SorkZmok]

There is a bonus system that mainly applies to damage output (but also to some other factors), which applies to all weapon types:
-Bonus: HighTech (+ 7.5%)
-Bonus: Rare (+ 10.0 %)
-Bonus: Epic (+ 12.5 %)
-Bonus: WoC (+ 15.0 %)

The bonus for high-tech is additive – for the other statuses only one applies.
I don't know if the epic guns should get a higher bonus than rares. They're way easier to get, easier to cap, can't be dropped and don't lose condition. I actually think thats enough bonus, i'd rather swap the bonus of epics with rares.

On WOC guns, i can't really decide. They would only get a 2.5% bonus over rares, fine by me. If that's the total bonus i.e. factoring ni the huge clipsize of the xbow for example. Because i'd actually rather have woc guns with bigger clips, better aiming or other bonuses instead of just giving em higher damage.
So the xbow would either have 2.5% more damage with a clipsize of 15 or no bonus but a clipsize of 30.

[calim]

are you sure an epic gun is easier to get than a rare ? Personally i'm not sure :wtf:

[yuuki]

well at least the tl of an epic is 75, while rares go up to 115 or so, in the end rares will still be far superior to epics because of that.

[calim]

well at least the tl of an epic is 75, while rares go up to 115 or so, in the end rares will still be far superior to epics because of that.

Ok. You mean that rares are harder to use (because of skill req), so it should have more bonuses. (In fact this is not linked with the difficulty to get the weapon itself.)

In this case i agree ;)

[Okran]

Why are the APU modules at the TOP of 3 of the Categories??
I object to ANY weapon being rated above all else in so many ways!!!

They are not at the top of the aiming category, but then again all of the weapon categories in this catergoy will be the same once capped! SO, NO DIFFERENCE!

I think range is the only category it is not top in, but with Monks having such a high run speed and the clipping range being so low, range IS NOT A PROBLEM ANYWAY!!

[Apocalypsox]

yes yes yes, and they also said the doy would be released a few months into retail, and that we would have mechs

ohhh boy...he reminded me of my mechs... here we go >=)

[Raz2006]

In my opinion APU aiming faster than pistols is rediculous, the point of a reticle for APU is to make it so they have to aim, and pistols aren't that hard to aim, as the reticle closes almost instantly. So if the reticle on APU is going to close faster, what is the point of having it at all? In my opinion way too much weight is placed in the fact APU takes PSI power, as its used as an excuse for making APU the most powerful, easiest to aim, and top 3 fire rate? PSI Power is like ammo, except you don't need to stop and reload, and you can't kill like 3 players with one clip of anything else.

If you think of Holy Lightning as a gun, its the highest damage over time, easiest to aim, largest clip gun in the game, am I the only one who thinks theres something wrong with that?

Coupled with the fact that monks can get better resists than Private Eyes, a higher run speed than anything but a tank and shelter, blessed deflector and tl10 heal for defence, I think something needs changing.

The mindset of monks being easy to kill classes is incorrect, given that they get an enormous boost to energy (currently the most important resist) from their armor and are capable of using heavy belts, with better buffs/heals than other classes? But still monks are given the biggest "guns" in the game?

And that brings me to the most rediculous part about monk spells, the fact that they can hit people as long as they can target them, which sounds fair enough all apart from the fact that sometimes your body on their screen isn't where it should be. Which leads to them being able to attack you, and you seeing your health drop seemingly inexplicably.

My opinion is I'm not seeing enough of a downward change for monks as there should be, if you want to end monk-o-cron then something has to be done about the things I've mentioned, and I've no doubt theres some things I've missed.

[Zheo]

Unreal - If WOC isn't a requirement for pvp atm, why are their so many xbow users running around, I mean seriously the time and effort to get up to use an xbow, why not just stick with an EXE? If they are so much easier and better?

I like the new bonuses and aim time, as long as gentanks can actually aim I would hate to for us poor tanks to be worse off than we are now.

[unreal]

PSI Power is like ammo, except you don't need to stop and reload, and you can't kill like 3 players with one clip of anything else.You can, if they're on low/medium health. ;) But yeah, most of us with any common sense agree. I want to see monks balanced, right now they're still being given too many advantages, especially where aiming speed is concerned.

The aiming speed should be based on the amount of damage able to be dished out in a small amount of time to help make fights a touch more equal. With that in mind, the aiming speed order should go like this (fastest to slowest):

Pistol
Rifle
Heavy
APU

Heavy weapons require reloading, APU's generally don't have to wait more than a moment for their psi pool to go up (possible change there?), therefore, an APU should have either slightly slower or possibly the same aiming speed as a Heavy weapon.

Might as well put on an old tune but what's happening with the hole line of sight deal too? Those spells had better be getting balanced in that area. I wouldn't be too bothered about the almighty damage of basically all the higher TL APU spells, as long as they have to aim, and need hit you the same way we have to hit them. ie, Not being able to shoot them round a wall just because their left ear or big toe is sticking out.

Edit: Unreal - If WOC isn't a requirement for pvp atm, why are their so many xbow users running around, I mean seriously the time and effort to get up to use an xbow, why not just stick with an EXE? If they are so much easier and better?First things first, who said it's "easier and better"?

The Crossbow has a hefty advantage over the Executioner right now. For a TL100 weapon the requirements are obviously lower than the TL113 Executoiner, and it does a similair amount of damage as an xray modded one except it's more powerful, in the sense that it has double the clip capacity.

Then there's the simple fact that it won't drop in a belt and repairs to 120/120. The ammo also weighs a hell of a lot less than Fusion Pistol ammo. The damage at the very least is going to be changed with the balancing, and possibly the clip size.

Having a good PvP weapon with WOC requirements doesn't make WOC a requirement for being able to PvP. You don't NEED the Crossbow to be able to kill people effectively. People merely whine about WOC weapons because they don't want to make the effort to get be able to use them.

[Okran]

If you think of Holy Lightning as a gun, its the highest damage over time, easiest to aim, largest clip gun in the game, am I the only one who thinks theres something wrong with that?

Sorry I forgot to mention in my above post that APU modules are exempt from the Clip Size Category as they do not have to re-load as such. You can get stacks of PSI Boosters and easily re-energise your PSI Pool without needing to stop firing.

I think that is is totally wrong! There are simply too many advantages!

[Raz2006]

If anyone has dueled a pure APU using an energy weapon, you'll see that unless the monk misses you a few times, you'll lose. For instance, in the coming MOTU, I (Fork) am paired up against Seratoz, who is currently pure APU. My duels against him in neofrag were evenly matched, sometimes he'd kill me, sometimes I'd kill him, but the times when I won were when he
miss-cast like 5 times in one match, so how am I supposed to think that the "changes" proposed earlier in this thread are going to make that any fairer? If anything he'd miss-cast a little less, as his aiming reticle would always be minimum anyway.

So, say I dueled a APU hybrid, on my pistol spy, disregarding the proposed changes to the spy class, hes going to have a gun which beats mine in every category, better buffs/heals, and better resists?

And the range nerf for pistols in my opinion is utterly unnecessary. Yes pistols can shoot unrealistic distances, but the only pistol I consider viable for long range is the Beam of Hell which is completely useless in PvP anyway. If you are going to change anything to balance pistols and rifles make rifles better at long range, not pistols worse. And has anyone who has proposed these changes even tried using a pistol at even medium range in PvP? It's rediculous even thinking about it. If anyone would want to keep distance between them and the target, it'd be a spy, and I'm a spy, but my choice of weapon requires me to be close for it to be effective, so, weighing up the fact that I have the lowest con cap of all the classes, and how much more effective my weapon is near point-blank....I rush in. I'd like to see any other pistol user say they decided to sit a distance away and try and hit a person, tbh.

Raise your hands and step away from the nerf bat


I think that is is totally wrong! There are simply too many advantages!

Wait for it....here comes the "but monks are easy to kill" nonsense....

[Safunte]

I still stick by my guns when i say that ALL weapon classes should have the same min/max reticule, and the same aiming speed. The only difference being the ease at which the aiming is capped on said weapon.

the bonuses seem better, but not quite good enough. place WoC right in the middle of Rare and Epic. Epic weapons are all TL75... so the bonus is viable, sure it does place a sort of sweet spot for some pes, but a bonus there slightly higher than rares is fine. WoC however, is in the same TL range as rares, so giving them a higher advantage allows it to be worth getting, but making it more than a very slight difference begins to wilt the pvp system. I propose an 8.5% bonus for WoC. This would make a T-C WoC weapon of lets say... tl 100 be about equal to a Rare T-C weapon of about tl 101. the difference is pathetically small, meaning its sorta kinda a sweet spot, but its not enough for people to complain about, and it allows people with WoC to have their (ever so) slight advantage with their little social status symbol in hand.
T-C: 5%
Rare:7.5%
WoC:8.5%
Epic:9.5%
...ftw


The ones who keep whining for them to not have a WOC requirement are the ones who can't be bothered to level and get the required experience, then farm the Ceres Labs for a WOC disk, then pay the 2million for the first WOC level. I don't think items such as the Ceres Handgun, the Ceres Rifle, and the Crossbow should be turned into epics. They deserve that extra effort to use them. It's the whole reason those of us that WANT to use them have gone through that tedious process.

What about the monks and tanks that run around with the WoC PAs? Are they doing it for an advantage in PvP? NO, now go preach your xbowloving stories somewhere else, WoC was and always has been intended to be a STATUS SYMBOL, not a slight advantage, or in this case a rediculous advantage.

EDITTT!!!!!
I just realized something, if this whole aiming reticule thing on APU modules makes the whole runcast (the cast circle) go away... i'm going to be seriously mad, its just another way to make hybrids even better.

[Asurmen Spec Op]

Based on the feedback received so far, we’d like to adjust the following points of our proposal:

Bonus System for Damage-Output:
- Bonus: HighTech + 5.0 % (additive)
- Bonus: Rare + 7.5 % (exclusive)
- Bonus: Epic + 9.5 % (exclusive)
- Bonus: WoC + 10.0 % (exclusive)

This would give a HighTech-WoC weapon a bonus damage of 15%. The bonus for HighTech weapons is based on the fact that more skill points have to be invested to meet the fairly high T-C requirements.

Personally Id perfer to level the field a bit more between rare/epic/woc
maybe 8.5/9/10
I dont think epics really deserve a big bonus over rares since rares are acually harder to get. 10% WoC looks fine to me

[unreal]

If the bonuses are going to be shoved into the equation full stop, as Asurmen said, there shouldn't be too big of an advantage for having WOC. The bonuses for rares and WOC items should be quite similair to one another.What about the monks and tanks that run around with the WoC PAs? Are they doing it for an advantage in PvP? NOAnd what does this recent addition to the WoC item tree have to do with this discussion on whether or not weapons should have WOC requirements? Absolutely nothing.

In regards to WOC items, Monks only have the WOC PA. Tanks have the WOC PA and Hurlerking Knuckles, and the only thing the Hurlerking Knuckles are good for is using them when you genrep somewhere and get SI. Apart from that, The Dentist is better in every way, excluding the usual non-drop and repair to 120/120 thing.

Monks and Tanks that have WOC won't be wearing it to get any advantages because they are unable to get any advantages. They have WOC just to be ready for the day when they will have something to enable them to have one.now go preach your xbowloving stories somewhere else, WoC was and always has been intended to be a STATUS SYMBOL, not a slight advantage, or in this case a rediculous advantage.So because I'm saying WOC isn't a requirement for PvP, and that the Executioner and other weapons can be used just as well in its place, I'm "preaching xbowloving stories"? I don't quite see how that works, especially when I'm doing the opposite and attacking the Crossbow by saying you can quite easily use other weapons instead. Please don't interpret what I say as something you would prefer it to be.

Also, if WoC was intended purely as a status symbol, they wouldn't add four WOC weapons; even more so, ones that are quite lethal. They would have added passive items such as the recent WOC PA's, that give no real advantages whatsoever, but clearly show you have WOC, a long long time ago.

[RogerRamjet]

Unreal - If WOC isn't a requirement for pvp atm, why are their so many xbow users running around, I mean seriously the time and effort to get up to use an xbow, why not just stick with an EXE? If they are so much easier and better?

I like the new bonuses and aim time, as long as gentanks can actually aim I would hate to for us poor tanks to be worse off than we are now.

The Xbow is good because people cant spec resists.

Commence flaming if you please.

[Okran]

I do not think WOC weapons should be on the list of specific bonuses. As many of you have already stated WOC should never be a 'requirement' to be better in PVP. Don't let this get to the stage where the Rare's are no longer used because their WOC cousins are better.

[unreal]

I do not think WOC weapons should be on the list of specific bonuses. As many of you have already stated WOC should never be a 'requirement' to be better in PVP. Don't let this get to the stage where the Rare's are no longer used because their WOC cousins are better.I agree to a certain extent, but, you need to take into account that the weapons and their damage, etc, are being changed. The Crossbow is most certainly being nerfed.

With the WOC bonus in question though, you need to also realise that the WOC weapons currently get about 105% on the damage stat at the most, they aren't artifact. In the case of the Ceres Handgun and Rifle (as I previously mentioned) if you're lucky you'll get 105% damage after modding them, and since they're TL113, it's difficult to cap damage without spending a lot of skill points on the respective RC or PC skill, therefore nerfing your character a great deal. The WOC bonus will help to resolve that problem.

[Dribble Joy]

With the WOC bonus in question though, you need to also realise that the WOC weapons currently get about 105% on the damage stat at the most, they aren't artifact. In the case of the Ceres Handgun and Rifle (as I previously mentioned) if you're lucky you'll get 105% damage after modding them, and since they're TL113, it's difficult to cap damage without spending a lot of skill points on the respective RC or PC skill, therefore nerfing your character a great deal. The WOC bonus will help to resolve that problem.
A better solution (as I see it) would be allowing them to reach arti stats and equating them with weapons of the same TL (depending on what tl they might get moved to). Keeps things a little simpler across the board.

[unreal]

Yeah, but I'm not quite sure they would want to wipe those items, since the Ceres Weapons for example will currently be at 102-105% after sticking mods on the slots. Unless they'll be able to change the stats on all those items without affecting us, it's going to cause a lot of grief. I have a 5 slot ultimated (1 slot free... 105/120/120/119) Ceres Handgun, and a 5 slot unmodded Ceres Rifle, which I got when I completed the quest for the first time.

Remember back when FN's 5 slot ultimated Ceres Handgun got wiped because of the genotoxic ammo bug? It'll be exactly like that for us all but on a larger scale. A disappointment (although it would probably be a good thing in terms of weapon balancing) as large as that can't really afford to happen with the current populations as they are.

[Pantho]

The Xbow is good because people cant spec resists.

Commence flaming if you please.

dunno roger.... On paper when i get hit by Exec and Xbow....

Exec does 36 - Xbow does 39

Yet all my resists are the same....
coupl'd with Easier aiming than Exec, Larger clip size. The FPS Decrease if you get hit :p

[Safunte]

If the bonuses are going to be shoved into the equation full stop, as Asurmen said, there shouldn't be too big of an advantage for having WOC. The bonuses for rares and WOC items should be quite similair to one another.And what does this recent addition to the WoC item tree have to do with this discussion on whether or not weapons should have WOC requirements? Absolutely nothing.

In regards to WOC items, Monks only have the WOC PA. Tanks have the WOC PA and Hurlerking Knuckles, and the only thing the Hurlerking Knuckles are good for is using them when you genrep somewhere and get SI. Apart from that, The Dentist is better in every way, excluding the usual non-drop and repair to 120/120 thing.

Monks and Tanks that have WOC won't be wearing it to get any advantages because they are unable to get any advantages. They have WOC just to be ready for the day when they will have something to enable them to have one.So because I'm saying WOC isn't a requirement for PvP, and that the Executioner and other weapons can be used just as well in its place, I'm "preaching xbowloving stories"? I don't quite see how that works, especially when I'm doing the opposite and attacking the Crossbow by saying you can quite easily use other weapons instead. Please don't interpret what I say as something you would prefer it to be.

Also, if WoC was intended purely as a status symbol, they wouldn't add four WOC weapons; even more so, ones that are quite lethal. They would have added passive items such as the recent WOC PA's, that give no real advantages whatsoever, but clearly show you have WOC, a long long time ago.

knuckles would only server a purpose on a PE, and thats near impossibly lame to get.

And you were saying theres nothing wrong with the current state of the xbow because it could be easily replaced by slasher/executioner. Tell me then, why would people go through the trouble to jump on the bandwagon and make xbow pes and spies? it wasn't to enjoy new content because when it wasn't woc i still didn't see as many people using it, and it was much easier to use then. All it is is a constant trickle of people realizing it is an advantage over other classes, so they make their own.

And the no advantages thing, they have planned on adding weapons and such for WoC the entire time, the thing is though, the original plan was to make them no better than other weapons, and to just be a status symbol.

Edit:::

SADLY! I have proven myself wrong. I figured it was about time we go and finally get some evidence supporting either side on the whole... WoC should(n't) give any bonus to the user.

Jonric: For high-level players, you're adding Wisdom of Ceres skills. What are these, and how will they work?

Michel Feidt: The Wisdom of Ceres (the name comes from the Ceres Archive, a database that contains all human knowledge from before the apocalyptic events) skills will add a new challenge for our more experienced players. Before even thinking about obtaining one of these skills, Runners must reach the cap in their main attributes. To obtain the skill itself, the Runner then has to gather a large amount of experience points, find a specific artifact and perform a quest.

Unlike the normal skillset, getting a level in a Wisdom of Ceres skill will not grant any skill points, but instead allow access to a series of high-level items like weapons, armor or tools with special bonuses or powers.
this quote can be found from an interview here. (http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/500/500674p3.html)

[unreal]

knuckles would only server a purpose on a PE, and thats near impossibly lame to get.Yup, only one PE (AFAIK) on Terra has Str WOC and that's Krazor. I met his kamikazee drone spamming MC PE once, and ended up chasing him all round some OP sector, almost killing him twice. Bloody melee PE's with fast runspeed and Stealth and lots of hills to clip through. ;) By then the few other people I was with got zerged and I got a nice sloppy Para, I ran away and genrepped out. :pAnd you were saying theres nothing wrong with the current state of the xbow because it could be easily replaced by slasher/executioner.As with your other post, you're interpreting my words the way you want them to be instead of how they are. I've not spoke about whether the current Crossbow whoring situation is right or wrong. People only use it for the reasons that have already been mentioned, reasons that I think I've repeated either 2 or 3 times in this thread already. :p

My argument is simply that you don't need WOC weapons to take part in PvP, and be on the same playing field as someone using a WOC weapon. WOC isn't a requirement for being as "powerful" as all the rest. The majority of people you see complaining about the WOC requirement on the WOC weapons are the ones who don't have WOC, because they either can't be bothered getting the XP, or can't or don't want to farm for a WOC disk.

The following quote is from the same thread in the following example, and it's still relevant today.All i see is narrow minded, short sighted ppl bitching about a weapon they cant be arsed to get themselves.
Take Crazy- for instance. He was trying to get hold of a WOC disk when the Ceres Labs were closed. Someone was selling one for just an SA, which was an extremely good deal at the time. Crazy- is like "unreal give me an SA I need that WOC disk!" and basically I buy the WOC disk for myself to save it for my own PE. Crazy- got pissed off because it was the second WOC disk to slip through his fingers, after he spent a couple of weeks levelling his PE non-stop to near WOC dex 1 exp (60million exp away from reaching the amount required) as a droner in Regants. The next day, he's there posting on the forum (here (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=133264)) about how the Crossbow is a disaster, and that it's overpowered, etc.

Anyway, until this specific topic pops up again at some point, it might be best to change the tune back to the bonuses, and the other more important parts of the thread that need to be discussed. :)

[Safunte]

Well to get back on topic. Aiming should be identical across the board, but with weapon classes having aiming harder to cap than other weapon classes. (sorry to repeat myself but staying on topic is important) whos with me on this one?

[Zheo]

Also, if WoC was intended purely as a status symbol, they wouldn't add four WOC weapons; even more so, ones that are quite lethal. They would have added passive items such as the recent WOC PA's, that give no real advantages whatsoever, but clearly show you have WOC, a long long time ago.

When why don't they be balanced about it and and in some damn HC, APU, PPU WOC stuff, how about a WOC spell that makes PPU invunerabile for half an hour or so? or an APU spell that kills instantly i mean after all they have to GET to WOC so after they do it's kinda only right they should have these great new toys right? And also why not give HC tanks a mini nuke that kills anything with 1000m's? Sure it'll be suicide but you can take everyone else out too :D

The people who don't want WOC weapons don't use them, the people that fight with them do :) I'm quite sure if they get removed hundreds will cry, and if they don't hundreds of others will. So how about a nice third option where WOC is just another weapon in the tech tree, and everyone has a few nice weapons, apu, ppu, pc, rc, hc and mc?

[Raz2006]

Aiming should be identical across the board, but with weapon classes having aiming harder to cap than other weapon classes.

Well if thats the case, what would be the hardest weapon to cap? Given tanks pathetic int, cannons would have to be the easiest, so then cannons aim the fastest, if they are to make tanks physically able of capping them.

It's a nice idea, but unless they made it so tanks couldnt cap cannons (which would nerf the hell out of tanks and make hc pes the wiser choice) then it would be unbalanced.

Imagine if HC PE's cannons aimed as fast and as small as pistols? Why bother using pistols at all?

[Safunte]

Well if thats the case, what would be the hardest weapon to cap? Given tanks pathetic int, cannons would have to be the easiest, so then cannons aim the fastest, if they are to make tanks physically able of capping them.

It's a nice idea, but unless they made it so tanks couldnt cap cannons (which would nerf the hell out of tanks and make hc pes the wiser choice) then it would be unbalanced.

Imagine if HC PE's cannons aimed as fast and as small as pistols? Why bother using pistols at all?

They could just make capping cannons aiming more reliant on HC than wep lore... which it already is.

[Okran]

In addition to the question why are APU modules at the top of the classifications, what about the various weapons types within each class??

As I said before in the previous Weapon Discussion Thread, you cannot classify weapons by class alone! Look at the Gatling type for example. Are you telling me that a Gatling Pistol has a much better firing frequency than a Gatling Cannon? Hows that possible? If you look on the Frequency list Pistols are at the top and Cannons at the bottom, but for Gatling type it should be the other way around.

Please can we have some guildelines on what you have in mind for weapon types AND classes, not one or the other.

[John Doe]

As we have now discussed a general concept for the arrangement of the weapon types – and you seem fairly pleased with it – we will now test the implementation into the game with one weapon type (Pistols) to be able to eliminate any possible flaws.

If the tests meet our expectations, we will continue next week with rifles, showing you the guidelines for that weapon type.

[Dribble Joy]

Uhhh.. test on retail or test on TS?

[Tratos]

Uhhh.. test on retail or test on TS?
I'd assume internal testing they we'll get some numerical results.

[R3N3GADE]

well i fear that with the ppu nerfs woc items will become redundent ... everyone is thinking on the lines of pvp but what about pvm.
how will ppl get woc and even ultima's when its really hard now with ppu's. buffs will be nerfed and no one will be able to stay feet down to get anything.
i really do feel messing with ppu spells is a big mistake.
i dont have one monk in my two accounts all spy's and one mc tank and i have dropped a apu with a ppu before so i im not just trying to save ppu's because i have one.
i think ppl better start supporting droners going to mc5 more aswell as they will be out of reach too.

[yuuki]

erm balancing mobs afterwards is a rather quick ans easy task, so i don't see a problem here

[nellus]

Some interesting ideas there but i do agree that apu spells should have the slowest aiming speed as the way i see it, its the char concentrating all their psychic energy into one blast or bolt or whatever. At the moment the only thing that i am aware of as being affected on the monk is the loss of psi energy, couldnt there also be a loss to stamina as it might take a lot of concentration to fire off a holy lightning blast.

[Zheo]

This would allow all weapon types to reach the same precision – their starting point would however be different (which would also make the aiming process varyingly long). Furthermore, the rifles switched place with pistols.

Aim speed (Seconds - Min | Max):
- APU Weapons 0.75 1.50
- Pistol 0.75 2.25
- Rifle 1.00 3.00
- Cannon 2.00 4.50

The values for aim speed are much closer together now – the difference between APU modules and pistols is also much smaller. Under these conditions, a Tank would approximately aim 3 times as long as an APU.

Perhaps your not including the following in your thinking: Lets say your in a tight space or close together (like most fights such as fighting in an op or mb or city street). If the tank cannot lock on because his target is moving out of his sight before he get enough of a lock to fire successfully then he is going to be useless in the fight all together, most of the fights I do, you have a few seconds to get off a shot, unless your lucky and their is no one else there OR your target isn't moving much. I hope you test your times out on some close combat with a slow moving hc tank against a fast moving pe or spy you might see how hard it is to hit someone if your lock takes too long to close.

[Safunte]

Zheo, read further through the thread. All aiming has the same min lockon now, but different maxes to make certain weapon types lock in slower.

[SorkZmok]

dunno roger.... On paper when i get hit by Exec and Xbow....

Exec does 36 - Xbow does 39

Yet all my resists are the same....
coupl'd with Easier aiming than Exec, Larger clip size. The FPS Decrease if you get hit :pXbow does less to me than an xray exec, not to mention a fire exec. Evil thing. :lol:

It's the clip and the chance to hit even with a missed shot that overpoweres it slightly. And the way too high defense a PE can get using it overpoweres it a lot.

If i fight xbow PEs i need to hit pretty much 100%, especially in the end due to the fucked up TL 10 heal. Otherwise i'm dead.

[Zheo]

Zheo, read further through the thread. All aiming has the same min lockon now, but different maxes to make certain weapon types lock in slower.

You mean this?


Based on the feedback received so far, we’d like to adjust the following points of our proposal:

Bonus System for Damage-Output:
- Bonus: HighTech + 5.0 % (additive)
- Bonus: Rare + 7.5 % (exclusive)
- Bonus: Epic + 9.5 % (exclusive)
- Bonus: WoC + 10.0 % (exclusive)

This would give a HighTech-WoC weapon a bonus damage of 15%. The bonus for HighTech weapons is based on the fact that more skill points have to be invested to meet the fairly high T-C requirements.

Aim precision (Reticule – Min | Max):
- APU Weapons 1.50 3.00
- Rifle 1.50 3.50
- Pistol 1.50 4.00
- Cannon 1.50 5.00

This would allow all weapon types to reach the same precision – their starting point would however be different (which would also make the aiming process varyingly long). Furthermore, the rifles switched place with pistols.

Aim speed (Seconds - Min | Max):
- APU Weapons 0.75 1.50
- Pistol 0.75 2.25
- Rifle 1.00 3.00
- Cannon 2.00 4.50

The values for aim speed are much closer together now – the difference between APU modules and pistols is also much smaller. Under these conditions, a Tank would approximately aim 3 times as long as an APU.

Note the "a Tank would approximately aim 3 times as long as an APU."

[Safunte]

better than the infinitely longer one we have going on now.

[Okran]

Damage-Output (per shot):
-APU Weapons (100%)
-Cannons (90%)
-Rifle (80%)
-Pistol (75%)
-Melee Weapons (65%)


I think Pistol should be below Melee. Firstly with Melee you have to be up close, whereas Pistols have range. Secondly Pistols have a higher firing frequency than Melee.

[xyl_az]

Range (visual range – Min | Max):
-Rifle (50% Visual range | 100% Visual range)
-Cannon (40% Visual range | 80% Visual range)
-APU Weapons (30% Visual range | 60% Visual range)
-Pistols (25% Visual range | 50% Visual range)
-Melee Weapons (striking distance)

What exactly does visual range means? If rifles got 50% as min - does it mean they cant be used in close combat? Or ?


other notes:
- no to WOC pvp bonus (it shouldnt be a requirement for pvp, as most people said already)
- no to epic pvp bonus (they have shitload of bonuses already)

dunno about monks, i cant really grasp complete view of their change. As for now it seems that both apus and ppus will still be overpowered (both solo and as a couple), just in some other way... hard to say what you (KK) have in mind, really...

other than that its ok

[Okran]

Of course they will remain over-powered. From what i can gather so far:

1. They will do psi-damage that unless you have psi-resist you take full damage.
2. Their armour remains the same, so overall very good coverage.
3. They will do the most amount of damage if at 100% per shot
4. They will do the most amount of damage over time.
5. They will aim the fastest (along with Pistols).
6. They dont have to re-load.

Not too sure about 1. Not enough has been disclosed about how the damage will work, although I have asked but with no reply (but thats a seperate thread).

[yuuki]

actually there will be no psidamage, but the modules will inflict damage types as it is today, but additionnaly to your respective resistance resist psi will lower the damage of the spells.
and with the lowered ppu buffs and the differentiation in force and pierce i think monks will be pretty vulnerable after the balancing has taken place

[Kame]

Another thing to take into consideration is the weapon type and the type of damage it deals. (locational or non-locational)

I think the pistols, rifles, drones and melee are fine.

The PSI modules, the APU ones are not fine to my eyes. And the HC could be upgraded a bit.

Spells:

Beam - non locational
Blast - AOE
Lance - locational
Halo - non locational
barrels - AOE

Eplaination : the beams are really powerfull and have v nice range. The locational ability overpowers the beam. The BLAST becoming AOE would make ppl use them to AOE over things. The LANCE being locational would give ppl reason to use them.
Then you could implement rare BLAST and LANCE type of spells. Would be fairly simple.



Heavy Combat

They need grenades that do damage of a kami, basically.





Id like to add:

The PSI resist factor should only be used to calculate how good passive ppu spells affect you.
This way a PE would gain 0 advantage from ppu.
A tank would have to spec all resist psi and say bye bye to heal, or heal and have 0 advantage from ppu.
All APUs would have to spec optimum resist psi so they can be ppued, yet still do good damage.
The ppus that have 0 resist PSI and get foreign buff/healed is dead meat.

[Safunte]

A tank would have to spec all resist psi and say bye bye to heal, or heal and have 0 advantage from ppu.

Tanks are getting all PSI levels removed from their mainskills, and its all going into dexterity.

Go figure, the damage sponge isn't allowed to resist damage from the hardest hitting class. Great job balancing.

[Apocalypsox]

Saf im sure they will add +PSR to armor for tanks now. its bullshit if they dont tbh.

[yuuki]

i think they said that such armor is planned in the beginning of the discussion (too lazy to search/quote it tho :p )

but nades doing kami damage would be a lil too much, tho they definately need a boost concerning their damage and the effort you have to capp them

[giga191]

just gotta mention a couple of things so that they don't get missed out.
1) Ceres rifle and pistol are wayyyy too high tl, and therefore take a hell of a lot to cap
2) Some none locational weapons don't do dmg all the time when the target is moving, anyone who has ever tried to use rolh or HL recently will tell you that

[Kain]

I don't really understand the total downer peeps seem to have against the pure monk classes.

Bear with me I have only been back in NC a month or so.

Please make the distinction between the THREE classes of monks. PPU, APU and Hybrid.

Is this thread purely to balance pvp for OP wars ? Or is it general pvp including small groups and individual fights?

The reason I ask as there was an interesting discussion aboout solo pvp on the help channel ( should have been OOC ) the other day whereby the concensus was that APU could gank but not pvp solo.

Looking at the MOTU competition how many pure APU's are entered how many PPU's (joke) ? ( on a side not how many tanks entered ).

Yes the APU is the most powerful when combined with a PPU. But anyone with a PPU attached will overpower any single target or even a small group.

So throughout this thread there have be comments about monkcron, something I have never seen, I assume they must be refering to OP Wars?

If its the Hybrid issue again, well <sigh> got nothing but anger for the way KK keep allowing them back in.

Please take this post as questions rather than an angry monk venting (hehe ).

Reason I ask is that traditionally the monk comunity is silent on the boards having been battered bruised and flamed in the past. We are used to our class being consistantly altered and changed right from beta of NC-1.

So much so that we almost dont want to know whats coming.

Kain

[John Wu]

Looking at the MOTU competition how many pure APU's are entered
on Mars the winner of one group is an APU.

APU is fine solo - kills fast, dies fast. thats the way an APU works.

[Okran]

Tank Psi Armour is planned.
However will it boost resistances over the 76% mark?
Or will PE's be more resistant because of thier ability to self-cast Shelter?

[Dribble Joy]

Is this thread purely to balance pvp for OP wars ? Or is it general pvp including small groups and individual fights?
All PvP, in all it's forms, be it solo 1 vs 1, small teams or large OP fights.
Taking everything down to the basics and rebuilding. Hense the earlier threads about class difinition.

The reason I ask as there was an interesting discussion aboout solo pvp on the help channel ( should have been OOC ) the other day whereby the concensus was that APU could gank but not pvp solo.
That is as now, not what may be. Forget anything about how things are currently ingame.

Yes the APU is the most powerful when combined with a PPU. But anyone with a PPU attached will overpower any single target or even a small group.
Hopefully not anymore.
Class use should essentially be irrelevant. 4 Spies against a Tank, PPU, APU and PE should be a balanced affair.
The problem at the moment is the immense boost in power the PPU affords another player, mainly through the use of HH. What we (or at least I) hope is that the inclusion of a PPU to a team is equal to that of another fighter.

Whether a mixed team should be superior to a single class/sub-class team is a matter of contention.

[Safunte]

Tank Psi Armour is planned.
However will it boost resistances over the 76% mark?
Or will PE's be more resistant because of thier ability to self-cast Shelter?

will shelter effect psi resist?

[yuuki]

Class use should essentially be irrelevant. 4 Spies against a Tank, PPU, APU and PE should be a balanced affair.
The problem at the moment is the immense boost in power the PPU affords another player, mainly through the use of HH. What we (or at least I) hope is that the inclusion of a PPU to a team is equal to that of another fighter.


Hopefully the most diverse team will be superior to a one class team in pvp after the balance.
and i think a ppu should give a team a nice boost if it's 4+ dd already, but not be a good choice in a 2 vs 2

and a solo apu is viable for pvp, tho not the optimum, but his insane damageoutput makes him a dangerous foe to anyone, especially when he's the attacker

Tank Psi Armour is planned.
However will it boost resistances over the 76% mark?
Or will PE's be more resistant because of thier ability to self-cast Shelter?

normally pes cannot max their energy resists, so along with the nerfed shelter they will be inferior to tanks concerning resists i think. (mebbe hc or mc could come close tho)

[Kame]

as long as ppu ca give a un altered bonus to anything else the an APU then the patern is fucked, there will be more advantage in having a ppu in your goup over having none, since the ppu can heal and s/d all the classes without diffence.

This is where you create a balance in between the classes.

If the apu would absolutely, always need a ppu to boost him then it would be fine.
The fully buffed APU should not be any stonger then a solo tank, in terms of how much damage it can take. The damage output itself is a major advantage.
Right now a ppu buffed apu is 2 or 3 times more resistant then a tank without buffs. This is wrong.
All other classes then pure APU should get NO benefit at all from a ppu if not for the rezzes and other non-critical factors.

In the end, trading a fighter for a ppu to support an apu should be a risk more then an instant advantage and should be far from being the "typical" team-fighting setup.

[Safunte]

normally pes cannot max their energy resists, so along with the nerfed shelter they will be inferior to tanks concerning resists i think. (mebbe hc or mc could come close tho)

Foreign shelter is whats being nerfed, not self cast.

[calim]

"a full buffed apu (by a capped ppu) should be approx as resistant as a non-buffed capped tank"

I agree with that.

[Okran]

A fully buffed APU's resists equal to or less than a Tank yes. Greater than no!