View Full Version : PPU Discussion
We’d like to present a few details concerning the PPU for discussion:
First, a short note concerning the general Monk changes:
Spell aiming will not affect the PPU in general – to use a module, it will be enough to target another player. Changing „Mental Steadiness“ into „Focusing“ will have barely any effects on the PPU. The skill will still act as requirement for PSI-Modules.
However, we are considering to have modules which are not clearly PPU, like ParaShock or DamageBoost, require aiming like APU modules. This could also affect the Resurrection module, as it requires a lot of concentration. Similarly to APU modules, Focusing would affect the efficiency.
Foreign Casts
The PPU’s main focus lies on supporting others: we’d like to generally reduce the effects to 10 – 25%, mainly for Shelter, Deflector, DamageBoost and ParaShock. As an example, ParaShock currently allows reductions of up to 85%.
Especially for ParaShock we want to make sure that it only makes defending yourself harder, but not impossible. Furthermore, we’d like to make the ParaShock effects stackable (like DamageBoost), meaning that each following cast will increase the effect up to its maximum.
Self-casts
As we already discussed, the PPU should still have the best defenses available. Therefore the restrictions mentioned above will not matter for self-casts. Unfortunately we can not yet say which changes there might be, as we will first have to determine the exact impact of changes in other areas within the game.
“ShitBuffs“
We’d also like to address the „shit buffing“ problem again. For buffs of the same type, only a stronger buff can overwrite a weaker one – a stronger buff is determined by duration and actual strength. However, self-casts always have priority. Any self-cast spell will be applied and will replace an already active spell of the same type. A player with PPU skills should be able to decide for himself which spells is appropriate for his current situation.
Neural Overload
This new effect can be triggered by different manipulations on the nerve system. Support spells are a type of such manipulation. Once the overload has reached a critical status, no further outside influence is possible until the overload level drops to an acceptable level again. The recovery speed will probably be based on the skill Constitution and the subskill Endurance. The status of the current overload will be displayed similarly to the „PSI Manipulation“ effect.
The principle that the player should not be limited also applies here. Players will be able to go over the limit of their own will – however, this may lead to unwanted effects. Possible effects could be an increased stamina usage or the reduction of a subskill (i.e. Athletics, Endurance, Body Health or Transport).
Dribble Joy
18-07-06, 18:46
First, a short note concerning the general Monk changes:
Spell aiming will not affect the PPU in general – to use a module, it will be enough to target another player. Changing „Mental Steadiness“ into „Focusing“ will have barely any effects on the PPU. The skill will still act as requirement for PSI-Modules.
No real issues there, keeps it kinda simple.
However, we are considering to have modules which are not clearly PPU, like ParaShock or DamageBoost, require aiming like APU modules. This could also affect the Resurrection module, as it requires a lot of concentration. Similarly to APU modules, Focusing would affect the efficiency.
Fine by me at the mo.
Foreign Casts
The PPU’s main focus lies on supporting others: we’d like to generally reduce the effects to 10 – 25%, mainly for Shelter, Deflector, DamageBoost and ParaShock. As an example, ParaShock currently allows reductions of up to 85%.
Especially for ParaShock we want to make sure that it only makes defending yourself harder, but not impossible.
In what way?
Furthermore, we’d like to make the ParaShock effects stackable (like DamageBoost), meaning that each following cast will increase the effect up to its maximum.
My initial reaction is WHAT?!!!!
But as long as the max isn't any higher than now (or with para, less than), then it's not a problem really.
Self-casts
As we already discussed, the PPU should still have the best defenses available. Therefore the restrictions mentioned above will not matter for self-casts. Unfortunately we can not yet say which changes there might be, as we will first have to determine the exact impact of changes in other areas within the game.
Furry muff....
“ShitBuffs“
We’d also like to address the „shit buffing“ problem again. For buffs of the same type, only a stronger buff can overwrite a weaker one – a stronger buff is determined by duration and actual strength. However, self-casts always have priority. Any self-cast spell will be applied and will replace an already active spell of the same type. A player with PPU skills should be able to decide for himself which spells is appropriate for his current situation.
Spaff in your faces :D.
Neural Overload
This new effect can be triggered by different manipulations on the nerve system. Support spells are a type of such manipulation. Once the overload has reached a critical status, no further outside influence is possible until the overload level drops to an acceptable level again. The recovery speed will probably be based on the skill Constitution and the subskill Endurance. The status of the current overload will be displayed similarly to the „PSI Manipulation“ effect.
The principle that the player should not be limited also applies here. Players will be able to go over the limit of their own will – however, this may lead to unwanted effects. Possible effects could be an increased stamina usage or the reduction of a subskill (i.e. Athletics, Endurance, Body Health or Transport).
Interesting.........
However, we are considering to have modules which are not clearly PPU, like ParaShock or DamageBoost, require aiming like APU modules. This could also affect the Resurrection module, as it requires a lot of concentration.Perfect! I don't think there's much of a point in giving Ressurrection an aim reticle, since they have to stand still mostly or wobble from side to side while rezzing anyway, but it would make things more interesting I guess.Foreign CastsGreat. But, Quick question. Why is everyone so bent on keeping Parashock in game? It doesn't do the game any good, whatsoever. I would glady go on suicide runs against PPU teams on my own, if I knew I wouldn't get parashocked instantly, it takes away all the fun. 95% of the people I know (the other 5% are people who have a PPU and enjoy parashocking people) dislike it. Some have stopped playing because of it.“ShitBuffs“I don't see "shit buffing" as a problem personally. If people are lazy enough as to not keep buffing themselves to avoid being shit buffed, then so be it. Although I have no problems with anything here. It's good that the buffs could be overwritten by type.Neural OverloadMight be best if you give an example or two of what you're talking about here. It needs to be talked about in a bit more detail. Sounds both good and bad.
@Dribble Joy: Thanks for quoting every single thing he said, lol, would have been better to only quote the paragraph headers so it wasn't a mile long. :o
I don't see "shit buffing" as a problem personally. If people are lazy enough as to not keep buffing themselves to avoid being shit buffed, then so be it. Although I have no problems with anything here. It's good that the buffs could be overwritten by type.
You don't like it but you accept it, that's right ?
I think "shit buff" as you guys at KK says is a nice game feature. It really needs technique/coordination in order to noob buff someone. The kill that comes with it is a nice reward. I think it should stay in-game as it is not really a wrong concept. In fact its very nice.
It all seems fine to me as long as things are kept in balance meaning, the overload doens't leave monks paralyzed mid fight, while doing nothing major, (not that i play monks I just want the game balanced)
Also I hope that para gets taken down to the level of the current rifles/pistol/cannon para weapons, then it'll be fine because you wont notice it ha!
DB should be a ppu only weapon, and it' should be alot weaker than it is now!
Other than that I look forward to it.
I think "shit buff" as you guys at KK says is a nice game feature. It really needs technique/coordination in order to noob buff someone. The kill that comes with it is a nice reward. I think it should stay in-game as it is not really a wrong concept. In fact its very nice. they are getting proper nerfs now, no need to nerf them to uselessness
OK this all sounds very positive.
I like it all except for the bit about stacking para.
Thats just gonna cause even more para spam, nerf its effect and make it none stackable and leave it at that.
Also since when was damage boost stackable in pvp.
Apart from that great, now all you gotta do is implement it.
You don't like it but you accept it, that's right ?Don't put words into my mouth. I like shit buffing, and have not said a single thing about disliking it. I simply said being able to overwrite buffs is a good idea, and that those specific buffs could be upgraded by others, is an even better one.
I'm hoping that they're referring to the skill type buffs which are often used as weapon requirements. The nibshelter, nibdeflector, and nibhealing ability should be left as it is; it's a valid, balanced, entertaining and fair part of gameplay.
Because they didn't explain in complete detail about which sort of buff, I was assuming first that it would apply to the booster spells. Nibsheltering and such is fine, but "shit buffing" someone with something like a Drone Booster 1 when they require Pistol Booster 1 to use their weapon is a bit like griefplay.
It's kind of unfair to force them to just sit there for 10mins unless they kill_self and get ressurrected (which in most cases won't happen if someone was able to shit buff you, usually you'll be at zone whoring places like MB for instance). In that sense, it's good to be able to overwrite your own buffs.
I really hope they don't take away our ability to nibshelter/nibdeflector/nibheal someone.I think "shit buff" as you guys at KK says is a nice game feature. It really needs technique/coordination in order to noob buff someone. The kill that comes with it is a nice reward. I think it should stay in-game as it is not really a wrong concept. In fact its very nice.Exactly.
Stacking parashock would actually be a nerf, the first cast would be around 10% reduction, second would increase that to 17.5%, the third cast would then bring it to the maximum of 25%.
About PPU and support buffs in general:
I have, i think an important question: What about the way buffs are visually displayed in the game ? Currently psi manips are not visually easy to recognize on the screen. I have an idea. What about making foreign casts not as easy to recognize as self cast ? :lol: It's logical : if you self cast, you inevitably know what you are doing (ok it's debatable) but if you receive a foreign cast, you can't know exactly what happen before you feel and undertand effects ;)
Anyway it's an important point because a PPU stay alive because of his buffs and then need to know more quickly than now what buff is droping. (we need colors, graphicaly more studied icons !).
Another thing. When prime is begining to drop, health is droping to. In a normal way health should drop when prime is totally out.
I think "shit buff" as you guys at KK says is a nice game feature. It really needs technique/coordination in order to noob buff someone. The kill that comes with it is a nice reward. I think it should stay in-game as it is not really a wrong concept. In fact its very nice.
Game feature? That make no sense, RP wise mostly. If i'm a monk, high level monk, why should'nt i be able to control what's casted on me? Or "overwrite" a cast done with lesser monk abilities?
And btw, that way you use a feature that is tought for "buff" someone to "weaken" him... i don't call it exploit but it's really near it imho.
Game feature? That make no sense, RP wise mostly. If i'm a monk, high level monk, why should'nt i be able to control what's casted on me? Or "overwrite" a cast done with lesser monk abilities?
And btw, that way you use a feature that is tought for "buff" someone to "weaken" him... i don't call it exploit but it's really near it imho.
Agree.
Noob heal is a sort of "debuff". I mean if you want "debuff" someone, you have to use dedicated spells provided in by the game. So ... maybe KK could introduce a more coherent way (spell?) to "debuff" someone, for all.
There is a choice.
- we "remove" this possibility of noob heal (means overwrite enable).
or
- we try to move it more coherent by introducing new features. (overwrite tends to it).
Could someone please post the current effect of Foreign Cast buffs so I can get an understanding on what the below actually means:
Foreign Casts
The PPU’s main focus lies on supporting others: we’d like to generally reduce the effects to 10 – 25%, mainly for Shelter, Deflector, DamageBoost and ParaShock.
As to parashock remove it
:lol:
Its just plain annoying and the discussion about it has gone on as long as this game, or so it seems.
Kain
dont think we need those "Neural Overload", whats the purpose of this feature? Is it actually nerf?
And the purpose of reducing the strenght of PPU-spells is to increase the quantity of PPUs in teams? or i dont understand? i think shelters and deflectors are weak enough.
Stackable parashok is good idea, PPU has a right to escape even any pure mele tank. and those, who been parashoked have to have their own PPUs to deparashock them ;)
RogerRamjet
19-07-06, 23:24
All good.
However, remove para, keep shit buffs.
All good.
However, remove para, keep shit buffs.
shit buffs are ok, but could be overwritable by higher self buff !
RogerRamjet
20-07-06, 02:12
shit buffs are ok, but could be overwritable by higher self buff !
Look, any decent PPU can already rebuff himself faster than shit buff is cast.
PPU gets shit buffed, split second his own shelter over writes it. Then he pops a holy heal which over writes the tl3 which has just been cast on him. This will make PPUs invincible near enough.
Dribble Joy
20-07-06, 02:22
Well, that depends on the amount of armour PPUs will end up with (and general 'physical' defence) and the strength of the heals and shelters.
Apocalypsox
20-07-06, 02:23
Spy nanites should have a sort of "Neural Overload" Effect, but on a lighter side... not as bad as it would be if you got a natrual overload- or the nanites should just increase the meter so you overload sooner.
Why not just remove para? or how about you give pe's/spys/tanks their freezers back like in nc1? instead of making it stack, keep it how it is but put it on a cooldown
Would it be possible for a separate thread be created to specifically talk about Parashock, and let us vote on whether all types of Parashock should be removed completely, or just modified? It would help filter out the "remove Para" and "no leave Para in!" responses that are inevitably going to dominate the thread. This way the other fundamental topics will get a good seeing to.
PPUs should remain almost invincible, becos actually they cant harm.
I think also, that pure PPUs shall be rewarded for their purity, and hybrids have to be more punished :angel: So nerfs on PPU spells should be applied to those who keep "dirty" INT and PSI. I think, its not ok, when a single hybrid makes el farid and ownz queen there without PPU.
Realating to: "The PPU’s main focus lies on supporting others" -- better increase effects of selfbuffs, and leave the effects of buffs, ppu cast on others, as they are, so that PPUs can really concentrate on supporting others.
And btw, fix finally Crahn Holy Antidote, so PPUs can remove poison stacks on party members.
Its a great idea to overwrite existing buffs.
Lol, and I agree with unreal related to separate thread about parashocks ;)
As for me, its a great idea to make them stackable :p Coz in this way they are nerfed, and hoes of kids, that dont know, how to handle when u're shocked, stop crying :D
Btw, those, who dont know, what to do, when u are parashocked: ask your PPU to antiparalyse you. If you dont have PPU, hire one for you to support u in battles.
You better keep your le in
']You better keep your le in
no, element, better those keep their LE who scare to be parashocked :o
now I feel flame begins :(
and element, we discuss here balance, not "LEd or not LEd". :rolleyes:
The description of the "Neural Overload" is so unspecific, you could read many things into it. For me it sounds like some kind of "buff limit", but I would like a more detailed description or maybe some examples to let us see what thoughts and possible rules are behind this. Otherwise I will be against it by default, because I cannot evaluate it in any way. :p
Darkana, I agree with you completly in all your points of view.
Generally I am against limiting PPUs doing their jobs. If they wanna limit PPUs in quantity of casts they can cast on one runner, so other runner classes have to be limited also in their activities, for example: overheating of weapons or smth like that.
I have to agree with Darkana's comment's there - it's very difficult to evaluate Neural Overload without a clear understanding on what area of the game you are trying to change, since PPU's have slightly different setups when they are PPU'ing in groups to level up, or PPU'ing at op wars.
I can live with PPU parashock. Its a little bit powerfull but i can live with it...
Copbot para, is another story
I can live with PPU parashock. Its a little bit powerfull but i can live with it...
Copbot para, is another story
PPU para is going down from 85% to 25% max, so it's being well and truely nerfed.
Good point about copbot para, will the guards get their para nerfed?
Yea, i was against the stackable para until i saw the Percente's
Copbot para should be removed. and copbots should do obsene damage the way DoY gaurds do. BUT make them real guns not magical fairy from the sky...
Im sure you could make them shoot like a judge, real with no splash dmg
Look, any decent PPU can already rebuff himself faster than shit buff is cast.
PPU gets shit buffed, split second his own shelter over writes it. Then he pops a holy heal which over writes the tl3 which has just been cast on him. This will make PPUs invincible near enough.
Instead of focusing trying to use something in the exact opposite way is supposed to work, use the appropriate tool (aka anti-spells).
They could even think on introducing in game some tool/weap/spell that can block ppu casting abilities for a short duration, with appropriate counter-measure of course. But this is only an idea.
Anyway, remember that ppu without buff is useless. Can you replace a weapon with a cheaper one for those who use weapons? What can weapon user do without his weapon?
<joke>
lol, right, lets implement spell called "Silence" (w00t? 8| i have already seen it somewhere) Silence will make all weapons and spells in affected area take a brake :) ... i hate elves, gnomes and orcs :mad: cos they are soooo boring :o
</joke>
I just wanna say, that its not ok to have things, spells ideas from other games, becos its boring, becos already seen it :) Neocron and ideas within it have to stay unique and unparalleled :cool:
And back to parashock: 'twould be nice if ppu could reach the effect of his PPU-module to the effectiveness the spell had before nerf, only by means of stacking it.
Example: first cast takes from speed 25%, second 50%, third 75%, fourth 85%
I'd like to see the changes in action. Mainly because I'm interested inhow it would affect the Monk Duo that has become prevailant.
Monk duo is so prevailant in case if both are pure in their classes, and purity has to be rewarded. Down with hybrids :lol:
From the german discussion thread:
Es ist angedacht den einzelnen PSI Modulen eine gewisse Wertigkeiten zu geben. Um diesen Wert wird dann die Neurale Überlastung beim buffen ansteigen (beim Castziel) .
Erreicht die neurale Überlastung 100% können keine weiteren PSI Manipulationen auf den betreffenden Spieler gecastet werden, bis sich die Überlastung wieder über Zeit, auf ein gewissen Level abgebaut hat. Die Anzeige wird wohl in der Art der aktuellen PSI Manipulationsanzeige im HUD sein.It means that if you receive support buffs a value ("neuronal overload") linked to your char will get increased depending on the buffs you receive. Once you hit the maximum no other buffs can be casted on you anymore. You can receive more buffs after it has auto-decreased to a certain level again. There will be some kind of display in the HUD for this.
I can see the reasons for this, however, as a PPU player I'm not sure what to think about this. I do hate to see people die if I mess up already, seeing them die even though I did everything right and they should have survived is the pinnacle of frustration for anyone playing (healing) support. Besides, you can happily fill up everyones "NO" with useless stuff (what happens on recasts?). Hmm ... o_O
I am pure PPU player since 2003 and never played any damaging chars, becoz I love PPUing soooo much :) I dont like thing with "neuronal overload" at all, it makes PPU useless ... :mad:
Darkana has right, when PPUing for you is passion, like in my case, and someone of your party dies, just becos of fatal error or your personal fault, you become sooo sad :) I would feel myself very frustrated and firs of all USELESS if i could help and support but had no chance becoz of this "neuronal overload".
Make then "weapon overheating" for other classes, we will see then who remains in NC, when suddenly in the heat of battle u cant use any of your weapons, becos all weapons are so hot, u cant hold them in hands ;)
I am pure PPU player since 2003 and never played any damaging chars, becoz I love PPUing soooo much :) I dont like thing with "neuronal overload" at all, it makes PPU useless ... :mad:
Darkana has right, when PPUing for you is passion, like in my case, and someone of your party dies, just becos of fatal error or your personal fault, you become sooo sad :) I would feel myself very frustrated and firs of all USELESS if i could help and support but had no chance becoz of this "neuronal overload".
Make then "weapon overheating" for other classes, we will see then who remains in NC, when suddenly in the heat of battle u cant use any of your weapons, becos all weapons are so hot, u cant hold them in hands ;)
You dont need weapon overheating to stop you from shooting when you have rediculous reloads.
As for making ppus useless... this depends on how they change the effectiveness of ppus on other players. If they dont, and have a steep neuronal overload (easy to obtain) then its not so bad. But if they make ppus less effective on other players with a slower gain towards the neuronal overload, then its not so bad.
But really, nothings broken here, so dont try to fix it.
Just rebalance the PPU class with the other ones, and make them be less effective on others, to a major degree. And make high level mobs do less.... wait no... just make specific areas like Mc5 and the ceres labs do less damage accordingly... i dont want you going around messing up our other caves and dungeons making them rediculously easy.
another idea i kinda like is, make them have aiming too with a reticle that locks on (almost)instantly but only to a point where they hit (insert aceptable #)% of their shots.
So when you got Neural overload, you cannot receive foriegn buffs. Does that mean purely support buffs, or does that include other buffs such as heal?
Also as Darkana pointed out, you potentially got a new form of "shit buffing" - casting useless buffs, such as Drone Combat 3 to screw up peoples Neural overload.
PPU'ing is hard work as it is now, especially when you get runners who are not "PPU aware" (The one's who always die because they don't watch their buffs or run off while you are buffing.) Now add in Neural Overload, you are going to have annoyed PPU's and annoyed players who will blame the PPU when things go wrong.
Question to the Dev's, why have a new form of SI instead of using the current SI system?
So instead of getting Neural Overload, when you have exceeded your Neural Limit, you get a bit of SI instead. As the game stands now, when a droner looses a droner by getting it blown up, the droner gets about 3% SI.
I'm jumping on the "remove para" bangwagon, why bother keeping it, the person who should win in a one vs one fight is the better player, not the player who decided to bring parashock.
Getting shocked decreases the fun about PvP greatly, and can be very frustrating, I'm hard pressed to find a good reason to keep it.
It doesn't work on mobs, so it's only use is PvP, and if one side of a fight has a PPU, and the other doesnt they've won anyway, and if both sides have PPUs it just means everyone runs that bit slower, and enjoys it that bit less.
And please don't add this "Neural Overload", I've never played a PPU and I think it sounds awful, I can't imagine the heart wrenching thats going on when PPUs read this.
It, like parashock, is completely unnecessary and can do nothing but reduce the enjoyment of the game.
Question to the Dev's, why have a new form of SI instead of using the current SI system?
So instead of getting Neural Overload, when you have exceeded your Neural Limit, you get a bit of SI instead. As the game stands now, when a droner looses a droner by getting it blown up, the droner gets about 3% SI.
I'm not a dev, but i'll answer. As you know SI will make most of your implants/armor/psi or weapons not usable, while N.O. will only prevent from being buffed more.
And btw, fix finally Crahn Holy Antidote, so PPUs can remove poison stacks on party members.
It works fine actually. I've never had any trouble with it whatsoever.
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Asurmen Spec Op
21-07-06, 00:50
Make then "weapon overheating" for other classes, we will see then who remains in NC, when suddenly in the heat of battle u cant use any of your weapons, becos all weapons are so hot, u cant hold them in hands ;)
Good sir, we call it reloading.
A nerf to para would make a happy son-of-a :) but I didnt have as much problem with it as Copbot para.
Because with copbot para I cant fucking MOVE!
A new feature of NC2 : Preform city Raids...
Plaza 2, pvp you move around, "BLAST" your glued to the ground . dead within moments after
well im happy =] stackable para means in the time it takes some nib to hit 3 stacks of para on me i will have offloaded a clip into him from the old CS and then ate me an anti para =P and he will have to do it all over again ^_^
i was hoping for stackable parashock it makes the game much more fun =] cant wait to see how devistating my meele shocker will be considering the spead it hits at
^_^
For a psi "reload" time, couldn't you just decrease the psi pool a bit to force them to use more psi boosters?A
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?It's a start, but no it's not fine. :p
well im happy =] stackable para means in the time it takes some nib to hit 3 stacks of para on me i will have offloaded a clip into him from the old CS and then ate me an anti para =P and he will have to do it all over again ^_^
i was hoping for stackable parashock it makes the game much more fun =] cant wait to see how devistating my meele shocker will be considering the spead it hits at
^_^
Shhh they might slow down the use rate of it :p
Dont get confused with reloading times and neural overload. Neural Overload for PPUs is like overheating af all (!) your weapons, so you cant use them till all your weapons cool down.
Generally my Clan and me are against this idea of Neural Overload. :mad:
Dont forget also, that this Neural Overload gives new opportunities for "shit-buffing". PPUs will be able to buff enemies with needless high-level buffs to accelerate the Neural Overload of those, who get buffed.
“ShitBuffs“
We’d also like to address the „shit buffing“ problem again. For buffs of the same type, only a stronger buff can overwrite a weaker one – a stronger buff is determined by duration and actual strength. However, self-casts always have priority. Any self-cast spell will be applied and will replace an already active spell of the same type. A player with PPU skills should be able to decide for himself which spells is appropriate for his current situation.
Neural Overload
This new effect can be triggered by different manipulations on the nerve system. Support spells are a type of such manipulation. Once the overload has reached a critical status, no further outside influence is possible until the overload level drops to an acceptable level again. The recovery speed will probably be based on the skill Constitution and the subskill Endurance. The status of the current overload will be displayed similarly to the „PSI Manipulation“ effect.
Will 'Shitbuffing' be able to effect 'Neural Overload'? In other words will a player be able to force another player into a Neural Overload? I hope not.
This topic seems to be more confusing than we thought ...
We will work on a more detailed version to give you a better idea of what we want to realize with that effect - so for now: Nice weekend!
Neural Overload
This new effect can be triggered by different manipulations on the nerve system. Support spells are a type of such manipulation. Once the overload has reached a critical status, no further outside influence is possible until the overload level drops to an acceptable level again. The recovery speed will probably be based on the skill Constitution and the subskill Endurance. The status of the current overload will be displayed similarly to the „PSI Manipulation“ effect.
The principle that the player should not be limited also applies here. Players will be able to go over the limit of their own will – however, this may lead to unwanted effects. Possible effects could be an increased stamina usage or the reduction of a subskill (i.e. Athletics, Endurance, Body Health or Transport)From the start it's clear it would be interpreted in different ways by different people, which is quite obviously why I said this in my post.Might be best if you give an example or two of what you're talking about here. It needs to be talked about in a bit more detail. Sounds both good and bad.Just give us an example of how it would work in-game, it would make things a lot more clear for all of us.
PS. Reakktor don't work on Saturday then? heh
It looks perfect to me, no need to remove parra if you are going to nerf it that much 25% down from 85% is a hugh nerf and thats the way it should be. Shitbuffs need fixing imo, since its not normly the PPU that is the problem, its the player they are supporting, they make them just to damn hard to kill.
One question, how will this effect places like MC5 were you need a PPU to survive in there, I hope you don't forget to balance those mobs if you nerf the effects of ppu buffs on other players :lol:
Dribble Joy
22-07-06, 00:11
Remember that PPUs need to affect all classes equally. Other wise we'll just get another monkocron or something similar.
One question, how will this effect places like MC5 were you need a PPU to survive in there, I hope you don't forget to balance those mobs if you nerf the effects of ppu buffs on other playersandThe PPU is the healer and buffer. His role in life is to help others survive.A PPU is supposed to help you stay alive, it's not supposed to keep you alive indefinitely. Levelling should be a challenge in comparison to what it is today, to make random teaming more frequent. I don't agree that all levelling should require a PPU, because otherwise you won't be able to do much by yourself. But there needs to be something difficult in the game.
There shouldn't be just a sort average consitution setup (like the ones we see today), that makes you stay alive anywhere as long as you keep getting Holy Sheltered. You should be forced to change your characters resists accordingly.
Please don't say MC5 and the Ceres Labs are difficult. In the Ceres Labs you all know how easy it is, there's endless places that allow you to shoot or more specifically, barrel them without being shot in return (which is therefore against the rules). I hope they replace the current Ceres Labs with the ones with the Launcher looking things inside an actual Lab. Just remove the doors to help stop the problem of people not being hit by the mobs, and it should be relatively fine.
MC5 is generally the same on the inside, but one of the damage dealers is generally going to die at some point. That's my main concern about levelling zones really, not even thinking about PPU's here. They've been designed fairly badly, Regants is a more recent example of that. You aren't supposed to be able to hurt mobs without taking damage back, unless you're sniping them of course. Yet in Regants there are huge ramps, and areas that stop you from being hit.
If those problems didn't still exist, I would agree that those mobs would need to be nerfed, but at present, they do exist, and because of all the ways you can stop yourself being damaged, just leave some of the mobs as they are. That way they'll certainly make up for not being able to hit you most of the time.
I don't agree that all levelling should require a PPU, because otherwise you won't be able to do much by yourself. But there needs to be something difficult in the game.
I agree, but unfortunately there are many places that require a PPU if you are a Spy like myself. DoY tunnels, MC5, WoC tunnels are three places I can name straight away that even when I re-jigged my con setup, used a PPR cpu and a 5 slot shelter and was still taking huge amounts of damage. I tried them all many times and eventually just gave up. I couldn't do any of the higher level content without a PPU, and I could never find one to help.
Well if you expect to kill several high level mobs in a place like that by yourself as a Spy, especially MC5, then you've got another thing coming. ;) Without a PPU, you're forced to run away and reheal. With a PPU you should still be forced to do the same, but a bit less often. That's the opposite of what we see today against most high level mobs. A PPU isn't supposed to be able to turn every single class into a damage sponge and keep us alive permanently, that's why they have holy rezz. There are places you can solo too effectively at the moment without really needing to put in much effort.
Harder solo levelling is a bad thing for some, but, the point of making things harder is to make random hunting teams more frequent. Instead of some newbie coming along and spending about a week trying to kill things on his own, he would instead be told he would need to find a team. This means he won't be running around by himself and resultingly get bored and log off.
By all means I'm not saying the harder levelling off certain mobs should result in getting the same amount of experience as you do today. If anything it should be increased, but only when compared to the amount of effort that is required in both solo and team situations.
This topic seems to be more confusing than we thought ...
We will work on a more detailed version to give you a better idea of what we want to realize with that effect - so for now: Nice weekend!
In this more detailed version, could you be more specific on how you're changing foreign buffs? make it effect differently by class? just mucho-nerfed?
Your not supposed to be able to Solo every place in a mmo.
You shouldnt really be able to solo Chaos cave but you can.
Mobs are the last thing to take into ppu balancing. Because mobs can be adjusted a lot easier than pvp balance.
KK did that before wihtout many problems so it should be doable again when PPU would get nerfed. What i'd love to see. :)
Mobs are the last thing to take into ppu balancing. Because mobs can be adjusted a lot easier than pvp balance.
KK did that before wihtout many problems so it should be doable again when PPU would get nerfed. What i'd love to see. :)
foreign cast will be nerfed , that almost certain... Self cast ... i hope no :D
As for me, I dont see any reasons to nerf PPUs in any ways. Devs should better increase strength of selfcasts ... if no ... then just they should do nothing to PPUs.
If someone thinks that some dungeons are too easy with current PPUs ... lol, then fix those dungeons better, dont make PPUs scapegoats and solution of most balancing problems in Neocron.
You want the ppus to be stronger than they are now?
What about the current no-nerfed-holyheal-group ? i wonder if it's voluntary ?
It should stay un-nerfed really. The incredibly crap range more than makes up for that. If levelling is left harder than normal after the balancing, leaving the the Holy Heal Group as it is would be a nice gesture, since we'll be getting worse Holy buffs and the Holy Heal Group will only make a minor change to whether we're going to live or not. It also casts slower than a Holy Heal which makes it even less worth while for use in PvP.
I agree with the fact that you shouldn't be able to take on 120/120 by yourself, at least not without a great deal of difficultly like having a vehicle to gun instead of normal weapon or having a bunker you can hide in and it healing after every two hits.
See imo ranked 65/65 shouldn't beable to kill a 120/120, since if a player was ranked 120/120 you'd have no chance much the same as a 0/2 has no chance against a 30/30 player.
You should beable to kill a 65/65 (if your 65/65) with a little difficulty then mobs ranking 80/80 should probably be the limit for soloing. Mobs 85+ should require a team, However I think the problem is places like MC5 don't provide much cover for runners so it makes it impossible for a large team of multi skilled runners to go in there and kill the mobs. It would be better if the roomers where bigger and their where more places to hide, OR if it was more like the REAL mc5 and the difficult bit was getting to the building, which only held the commander!
Just going to re-ask a question from page one which got ignored.
:p
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Could someone please post the current effect of Foreign Cast buffs so I can get an understanding on what the below actually means:
Foreign Casts
The PPU’s main focus lies on supporting others: we’d like to generally reduce the effects to 10 – 25%, mainly for Shelter, Deflector, DamageBoost and ParaShock.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
My second question is about Hybrids. What is the plan with those?
Both this thread and the weapon thread make no mention of them ( other than occasional complaint).
My third question is about Tanks, the plans are to remove psi and give them additional toys to do healing etc, I assume that the Tank can still receive buffs from a PPU?
The affect of this, combined with the cast reductions, will really make PPU buffs on a tanks become relatively much more effective, as the heals / shields become an additional buff. IMHO this is a good thing, depending on the toys Tanks get.
But with the foreign cast buff reduction PE's become more powerful as there self cast buffs stay the same power. How much of an advantage this is only time will see. PE's are already the kings of solo PVP and dueling so I'm sure they will be happy with the OP war / group PVP buff.
Once again we really need to see the numbers to really begin to compare.
My final comment is about PPU's in general. The healing class in this game has probably the hardest time of any MMORG I have ever played. Casting on our selves is not the problem. Its maintaining buffs on others.
There are precious little indicators to see when another player's buffs etc have dropped / been removed. We are forced to rely on the player telling us either by text or through a thirdparty tool like teamspeak.
If you introduced something like neural interface along with the buff nerf its going to get just plain painful.
People play to have fun, KK if you keep this up its just going to be damn painful.
I for one am not someone who gets pleasure from being in pain.
Kain
Richard Slade
27-07-06, 14:26
The major issue I see with PPUs,
is that they exist.
There's no reason for anyone to have an extra buffer as all it does is gives an "OMGWTFPWN" edge that just removes any type of fair fight.
Make monkeys monkeys and not "this or that" monkey,
altogether, removes para bs, all buffs above rank 2 and make them not even 50% effective on others
Hence, we got a monkey, that can choose, a balance, between self-buffing and attackpower.
PPUs are gamebreakers and has always been, no need for them in the sense they are now.
Mind you, I don't mind an half-immortal monkey, what I do mind is that all of his buddies are equally half-immortal and also that he has the ability to whoop my sorry ass.
Balance in all things
A PPU isn't supposed to be able to turn every single class into a damage sponge ...
True! However the problem I have with the PPU is that they are supposed to be 'passive', yet they can cast OFFENSIVE boosters on others. Any combat boosters of level 3 boost the players offense skill by 20, which is a mahoussive amount!
A PPU should NOT be able to also increase anyones 'offensive' capability, while at the same time giving them better defense/healing capability! It makes no sense!
Dribble Joy
27-07-06, 15:51
A PPU should NOT be able to also increase anyones 'offensive' capability, while at the same time giving them better defense/healing capability! It makes no sense!
Incorrect.
What a PPU should do is raise the fighter's overall capabilities to the appropriate level (probably a 40-50% boost to total effectiveness), be that purely through passive effects (heals, shelter etc.), pure 'passive aggressive' effects (DB, combat buffs, debuffs etc.) or a mix of the two.
The use of Exotic Psi Use could restrain the PPU to one or the other, or a lower ability with both.
But with the foreign cast buff reduction PE's become more powerful as there self cast buffs stay the same power. How much of an advantage this is only time will see. PE's are already the kings of solo PVP and dueling so I'm sure they will be happy with the OP war / group PVP buff.
PEs never gained much from PPUs in the first place, infact; unless the PPU was full capped with a decent spell, getting a foreign shelter would be of detrimental effect. Where as when a PE and say a tank (used) to be balanced, a tank would benefit greatly from a PPU cast, giving the tank a much bigger advantage in the team arena.
(The problem is that PEs gained far too much with the skill changes, hopefull this should be resolved.)
What we need is a situation so that all classes, balanced 'solo' then recieve an equal boost with the addition of a PPU. Other wise classes will loose out at either solo/non-PPU supported times and/or loose out when a PPU is involved.
DJ,
Thank you for the reply, both in this discussion and the weapon balance thread.
Think both are going to be very hard to do. At what point do you balance PPU ? I'm not sure you can balance the benefit of a PPU across classes.
Mainly because of your main class the PE, the jack of all trades. I don't mean they are overpowered.
;)
Just that they sit firmly in the middle. As you said at the moment PE's gain very little benefit from the shields of even a capped PPU.
So how do you balance from that?
Only way I can see it is by initially balancing the wpn dam vs defense for non ppu buffed chars.
Then doing the whole thing again using capped ppu buffs.
But does the code have the ability to distinguish character class when a foreign buff gets cast. So that additional formuli can be used to vary the effect of a shield according to class?
Glad I'm not hands on involved. To balance 1vs1, small group and OP war with and without PPU availablity.
<shudder>
You can see why a lot of games stick to PVE.
Certainly the online games I've played with pvp in them have all had balancing issues, judging by the forums.
Anyway good luck to whoever is doing it.
Incorrect.
What a PPU should do is raise the fighter's overall capabilities to the appropriate level (probably a 40-50% boost to total effectiveness), be that purely through passive effects (heals, shelter etc.), pure 'passive aggressive' effects (DB, combat buffs, debuffs etc.) or a mix of the two.
The use of Exotic Psi Use could restrain the PPU to one or the other, or a lower ability with both.
I disagree. A 'pure' PPU should be purely passive, I disagree with anything that allows 'them' the ability to increase another players offensiveness.
So with that in mind, maybe if Exotic Psi use is introduced properly I would not have a problem. If you want to spec both then you should not be as good as a specialised monk.
The implementation of neural overload is currently "on ice", at least
until we can see the effects of the remaining PPU changes on the test
server. So you don't need to think about that point anymore, for now. :D
Roc-a-fella
28-07-06, 18:03
Do you guys like, have OP wars on the test server? Then get mad because another GM para shocked u and then godmode and kill them all?
Scaramanga
29-07-06, 15:09
mahoussive
Love that word.
On a side note, would making parashock stackable lead to an increase in ppus present at group fights due to the affect being so profound?
maybe we'll need psi manip stacks to appear visually differently because of the stack size.
But it's a general problem, like with poison dots : here it is what i think it could be great : once your screen is filled with dots, just display "X more dots..." somewhere. Currently we don't have any idea of how many dots is running on you - and it's very frequent when you play a PPU.
I can't really stomach reading these threads anymore.. I hope someones been representing the nerf them to nothing POV.
This topic seems to be more confusing than we thought ...
We will work on a more detailed version to give you a better idea of what we want to realize with that effect - so for now: Nice weekend!
*waits patiently.*
']r
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mick ele =d
yeah para is problematic in that thesedays anyone who is paraed is ripe for dmg boosting, which in turn would lead to death... unless the attacking person really really sucked....
wrt the buffs, making them weaker accross the board would be nice. and remember to nerf the heals down too so its balanced across all the psi using classes.
so erm yeah.
tis been a long time ....
speak thy thoughts dev.
rawr ..... i hate stale threads :(
Apocalypsox
15-08-06, 08:34
balancing monks = making psi resist work tbh.
i can't remember which official said this but it was something along the lines of "a player who would normally lose 10 out of 10 fights to another player will not be able to beat him with a PPU"
as long as it's like that, then i'm happy :)
balancing monks = making psi resist work tbh.
And giving tanks psr on armor/certain imps tbh.
Dribble Joy
15-08-06, 20:23
Depends entirely on how it's organised. PSR isn't a necessated change, it's one of several routes that could be taken.
I dont even care about this thread anymore. It's a complete waste to post here seeing as though the gms basically said they're done looking at it and are going to give a more descriptive repeat of it.... sometime....
i can't remember which official said this but it was something along the lines of "a player who would normally lose 10 out of 10 fights to another player will not be able to beat him with a PPU"
as long as it's like that, then i'm happy :)
why? its 2v1. Are you telling me that if one shitty player on say a tank, and another good tank fight one guy, they should still not win because of the bad player?
A ppu needs to give a 100% boost to a person he is supporting or else he is usless and might as well be another player. The catch comes in in large groups.
If you have 6 dmg dealing classes, and 1 ppu can buff them all to 200% effectivness thats an issue because then the ppu is worth 6 players in effect.
The trick hence is to make ppuing very much limited to who the ppu is supporting at any given moment, instead of two minute s/d how about very powerful very short duration buffs?
How about a psi system that requires budgeting of psi and determenting what spells to use, not just a prohibitation on RoF.
Not to mention, it would make ppuing more fun if its all about fast paced reflexes on the part of the ppu, not about slapping on buffs and then just hitting people with heals.
The "heal" as we see it should be nerfed a lot, To compensate a single burst heal should be added, then make s/d last say only 6 seconds forign cast. Let ppus keep their perma s/d self cast. But then the trick would be, oh somone is going down, shelter, single target heal, dot heal, and move to another person.
I'm not for the "Neural Overload" system, because if a PPU gets it, why not an APU (I don't know if it's the case already or not :lol: :p )
I think the balancing idea is really cool, altough I don't think it's not really going to change anything about the game system. Even if we "nerf" PPU to the max, Passive Psi Users will always be welcome in an OP war, welcome as 1 PPU per damage dealer/player.
A thing that would be cool is to "divide" the Holy Shelter into 2 others spells like 1 for Fire/Poison and Energy/Xray damages, so far you could use some skills to put up those shelters up, offering the other classes the possibility to remove one of them. So far we have been reducing PPU abilities with the character skill, but it's more a question of how a good PPU support people, and harder is his work when he has to cast more shields to his team.
That would let the PPU be harder to play, but also, that would mean there would be more PPU in a OP war :(
PROPOSAL:
I say remove most of the single cast spells for casting on other players and only have group spells available for casting (except a few, like DB). Then at least the PPU has to say within a close proximity to the team for players to benfit from their spells.
WHY?:
It would solve so many things. You would not have to time each cast on each player and remember the order of players cast for re-casting spells on players. A player that decides to run off on their own looses the team spells (why benefit from team buffs when you are no longer a part of the team). A PPU can then do something else at the same time as keeping everyone else alive.
HOW IT MIGHT WORK:
If you have any current self cast spells on you of the same type then the group spell has no effect. Another group spell should not be able to override an existing one until the existing one wears off.
Dribble Joy
16-08-06, 17:59
A ppu needs to give a 100% boost to a person he is supporting or else he is usless and might as well be another player. The catch comes in in large groups.
If you have 6 dmg dealing classes, and 1 ppu can buff them all to 200% effectivness thats an issue because then the ppu is worth 6 players in effect.
I think the direction they may (and I hope) be going is that a PPU is intended for team PvP, as in a large number, not tag teams. A PPU and another fighter class alone would be at a disadvantage to two fighters.
So a PPU might boost people around 50%, which would be less usefull to PK teams, but of greater benefit to a caving or OP team.
So a PPU might boost people around 50%, which would be less usefull to PK teams, but of greater benefit to a caving or OP team.
I also see it going this way.
In another game i played, i dedicated 50% of my skillpoints into a profession which, when properly used, gave everybody in team something like +20 to +25% of performance. (So i myself was at around 75% of a "normal" setup. )
Alone or in small groups, it definitely was a disadvantage but when groups got bigger, like in larger scale PvP, my team outclassed most others.
Though, i also admit, supporing a big team in NC is harder than doing it in the game i mentioned, so +20% probably would not be worth it, the goal might be closer to your +50%.
Why so much empty words? :) PPUs are ok as they are. Those shoud be desatvantaged, who dont have their PPUs ;0
Why so much empty words? :) PPUs are ok as they are. Those shoud be desatvantaged, who dont have their PPUs ;0
EDIT::: I almost gave this a coherent response :rolleyes:
lol registered just to come defend PPUs :P
must have heard in game you might not be able to kill anybody once the next patch comes around..
ppus are improtant =] there just a lil over powerd taking 0 def to invincable def
Just so this isn't missed out: SD will never be balanced while it works on a certain percentage (at least not with heals)
My main was a ppu through most of neocron...and I'll be the first to say that they ruined this game single handedly. Remove them please. Remove parashock. Game balance and ppu do not go together. I'm "shocked" that parashock has remained in the game this long even. It seems that there have been so many damn drugs and spells made to try and counter fight a PPU (Drugs, anti-buff spells,drugs, drones). Balance this game already. Make it fun again and we will come back in droves. You are losing touch with your players by keeping it in. PLEASE REMOVE PPU PLEASE REMOVE PARA, they only hurt this game, there is nothing good that comes out of them. And you PPUs that are coming on here and defending yourselves don't have a damn clue about how detrimental the ppu class has been to this game.
dude if you remove the ppu you would have to remove apus and then you hav shit loads of hybs running everywhere but i do agree with the para but dont remove it just low it so it doesnt slow you down that much
Napper: think before you post. If you remove ppus and their spells, you wouldn't have hybrids walking around. You would not have to remove apus. And why is everyone so hell bent over keeping parashock in, do you remember the days when it wasn't around?!?!?! It was great! Remember when uber heals weren't around? It was great! The world was more dangerous. You had to chose your battles wisely...now you can run into insane odds and not sweat for a second cause of ppu support. Lame.
cgotheridge
20-09-06, 17:38
PPUs in general:
As ppus cant deal damage they should be invincible by solo enemys and hard to kill by teams.
Foreign Casts:
I agree with the SD being decreased and the idea of stacking paras aslong as the para doesnt exceed the current maximum.
Self Casts:
I agree with what was said here. PPU self buffs seem pretty balanced with current weapons but this might need to be changed after the balancing along with weapon damage changes.
"Shit Buffs":
Im divided on this one, on one hand if your a good ppu this isnt a problem to begin with however I HATE people noob buffing me :D
Neural Overload:
This is the one im most concerned about.
Firstly it would create a problem with HAB, for it to affect people with ppu buttplugs the level of neural overload would have to be set so that with a couple of antibuffs and rebuffs a player would have so much of whatever the effect from overload will be they will drop like a sack.
Secondly basing it on con and endurance doesnt seem a good idea. Youd just end up with tanks (with lots of con points) having a ppu permantly up there a*** and even tho after the balancing they wont be able to do as much damage theyd be nigh on invincible and apus with low con unable to recieve buffs and since they cant buff themselfes just dieing.
PPUs in general:
As ppus cant deal damage they should be invincible by solo enemys and hard to kill by teams.
it's pretty easy to skill a ppu that can capp a tl 30 sthing assault rifle or pumpgun, so it's absolute bullshit that all ppus claim they are not able to deal damage they are just reluctant to skill anything else than agility in dex as the greater runspeed gives them better defense in team fights.
besides even if they couldn't deal damage they still can rezz someone that can, they can hack ops and a normal solo stealther doesn't have a chance to sneak past the security and kill em while hacking which is pretty easy with spy or pe hackers. :mad:
so stop whining that you're defenseless, but skill a weapon or just run away when your dd's are dead. the latter option is sthing you almost always have, even when fighting a team
Neural Overload:
This is the one im most concerned about.
Firstly it would create a problem with HAB, for it to affect people with ppu buttplugs the level of neural overload would have to be set so that with a couple of antibuffs and rebuffs a player would have so much of whatever the effect from overload will be they will drop like a sack.
Secondly basing it on con and endurance doesnt seem a good idea. Youd just end up with tanks (with lots of con points) having a ppu permantly up there a*** and even tho after the balancing they wont be able to do as much damage theyd be nigh on invincible and apus with low con unable to recieve buffs and since they cant buff themselfes just dieing.
kk already said that's not gonna be introduced
Napper: think before you post. If you remove ppus and their spells, you wouldn't have hybrids walking around. You would not have to remove apus. And why is everyone so hell bent over keeping parashock in, do you remember the days when it wasn't around?!?!?! It was great! Remember when uber heals weren't around? It was great! The world was more dangerous. You had to chose your battles wisely...now you can run into insane odds and not sweat for a second cause of ppu support. Lame.
You think if they remove ppus you wouldn’t be able to play apu cos how the fuck is a apu suppose to buff him self up he would have very little defenses to any attacking force that he happen to come across they would be no more monks at op wars witch is a good thing (tankocron) plus I think that if you do remove the ppus with all the spells they be a lot of gring to be done with no rezz. How can you say remove the ppu with all its spells that's fuck up tbh.
So you need to think befor you post bollocks.
You think if they remove ppus you wouldn’t be able to play apu cos how the fuck is a apu suppose to buff him self up he would have very little defenses to any attacking force that he happen to come across they would be no more monks at op wars witch is a good thing (tankocron) plus I think that if you do remove the ppus with all the spells they be a lot of gring to be done with no rezz. How can you say remove the ppu with all its spells that's fuck up tbh.
So you need to think befor you post bollocks.
Again, you show your ignorance and lack of knowledge. Plenty of apus can hold their own against other players without buffs. You do realize that during beta and early neocron days there were hardly any pure PPUs around. The whole point is that they didn't have very many defenses but could dish out tons of damage. Go read the point of every class and then come back here and post something that shows you know your ass from a hole in the ground.
ok you have me on that one but they wouldnt be able to fight soloif they did they wouldnt be able to last along time cos of heals ect
But what about that what you said about getting rid of the ppu spells thats crap you have to admit cos what about lvling a apu would be very very very hard dont you think?
ok you have me on that one but they wouldnt be able to fight soloif they did they wouldnt be able to last along time cos of heals ect
But what about that what you said about getting rid of the ppu spells thats crap you have to admit cos what about lvling a apu would be very very very hard dont you think?
na i only shoot stuf that dont shoot back =P
Dribble Joy
21-09-06, 18:27
APUs do need to be solo viable. Buffs aren't such an issue, it's giving them some form of heal.
APUs do need to be solo viable. Buffs aren't such an issue, it's giving them some form of heal.
if i wanted to be a pain in the ass, id say use medkits you nibcake, but....i agree with you
maybe the tank based one hit heals could be str oriented and not class specific... that way a newb-quality tank "healtool" and medkits could be used for apus deciding to solo, it wouldn't be a fast heal or anything, but it'd make things better than giving them an actual healing ability
i is loving that idea dood ^^
but then pes could have some funky setups :D
Dribble Joy
22-09-06, 20:25
Unintentional 'overlap' of solo heals/buffs will cause real problems. We need to make sure that things like a 'tank' medkit can't be used alongside a PE or hybrid heal.
psi overload module. temperarily flatlines ur psi pool to 0 while the module runs by reducing base psi pool by 1000 and then heals u over the time at a faster rate requiers apu use. is an agressive heal system
Dribble Joy
23-09-06, 00:32
With psi boosters it's not too important of the psi use. For APUs either a pure heal or maybe a 'vampiric' spell (though this would have to be carefully integrated with the rest of APU/hybrid balancing).
if you want a heal on an apu skill some ppu and play a hybbie :p
besides i know apus that hunt grims solo and do quite well with it just using medkits.
an actual tool that would have to be pulled out to heal wouldn't make funky pe setups... they'd have to pull out their heal, use that, then pull out the tank-medi and use that... god people dont even use medkits and thats just a buttonpress... and it really does make a difference.
if you want a heal on an apu skill some ppu and play a hybbie :p
besides i know apus that hunt grims solo and do quite well with it just using medkits.
The joys of not needing LoS.
Dribble Joy
23-09-06, 12:27
if you want a heal on an apu skill some ppu and play a hybbie :p
besides i know apus that hunt grims solo and do quite well with it just using medkits.
I was thinking more from a purely balance stance. I still think that regardless of player orientation (offence/defencively, an APU should not be overly penalised for going all out in the offence. His offence/defence balance should alter, but I feel heals should not necessarily be part of that) they should have something beyond the current medkit level of healing.
an actual tool that would have to be pulled out to heal wouldn't make funky pe setups... they'd have to pull out their heal, use that, then pull out the tank-medi and use that... god people dont even use medkits and thats just a buttonpress... and it really does make a difference.
Erm... a lot of people use medkits on top of their heals.. and pulling out another tool isn't hard. You don't necessarily have to do it at the same time. Timing the casts/uses so one happens half way through the timer of the other would actually be a better method.
i know some people do, but i meant, not even everybody does now, and thats such an advantage with hardly any time to get a more effective heal going. and if you make it so taht pulling another tool to use more heal (a small amount btw) it takes TIME, and in that time you'd probably get hurt more than whatever amount it'd heal you.
for example,
tl15 str healtool (monks... shitty heal, but hey its something better than having to carry a stack of medis)
tl 40, (pes, some spies... not really worth using, heals less than a medkit in the same amount of time.. altered by the recharge rate)
tl 75, hey look, hc/mc pes can fight pc/rc pes, joy.
tl 100, tanks get something special.
JUST an example.you might not agree with the amoutns or w/e that i put there, but you might agree with the GENERAL CONCEPT.
I'd like to know what is being done about PPUed players outhealing other players' weapons. For a tl90 weapon the reduction in damage due to foreign heals and buffs on a player, should be reduced by only ~50-60% in my opinion.
you know when the 2.2 thing comes out will this wavey hand crap be sorted please say yes
you know when the 2.2 thing comes out will this wavey hand crap be sorted please say yes
I doubt it, thats an animation thing not a balance problem afaik.
just remove the animations and put them back to how they were LOL
Will there be psycological counselling for lore to help him cope with not being able to rely on monk zergs?
Forget My Name
16-11-06, 15:27
I doubt it, thats an animation thing not a balance problem afaik.
just remove the animations and put them back to how they were LOL
The wavey hand animation just ruins the game due to you not being able to cast while your hand is waving.
It's not like new players say "wow, casting magical spells look so realistic with wavey hands!"
Just remove the wavey hands or code the game so that waving your hands doesn't block your casting.
Heavyporker
16-11-06, 19:34
I hate, hate, hate, HATE the idea of vampiric heals or shit along that line. One of the PSI monks' biggest problems is that too many people regard them as magicans. That simply has to stop.
Removing the idiotic arm-waving animations every time we use a PSI MODULE will go a long way towards that.
Why not just have like a 1/min RoF high psi-energy cost self-heal only module for APUs? Call it a "Crahn's Mediative Focus" or something.
---------------
Now, I have an easy solution to the Gentank heal problem. Simply make their healing ability/tool based on CON. Presumably, only Gentanks can get to CON 100, which means it'd be easy to give them top-of-the-line heal tool/ability around that range, say, starting at CON 70, perhaps. I'd like to see a Spy or Psi Monk even break CON 50.
Oh, and to make a PE sweat at the choice between PSI heal/buffs or Gentank Heal, make it so that the Gentank Heal impact negatively upon a critical PSI foundation, like MST or PPW, meaning that a PE's ability to self-buff would collapse.
Clive tombstone
16-11-06, 19:47
Heheh, why not take an idea from Warhammer 40k, and give Psi monks "HeadAches"? XD
and yeah I agre the hand motions should go. They're psykics and telecanetics, they dont wave theyre hands like that (since if I recall correctly, only magic has to do this, in order to form magic seals or something like that to perform the magic).
They should be like the kids from The Village of the Damned (or what it's called)
Anyone noticed what your left hand does when you have a spell equipped? O_o
Heavyporker
17-11-06, 01:31
Yes, dogface. When my right hand equips "Crahn's Holy Moisturizing Lotion", my left hand dips into the trousers.
Heheh, why not take an idea from Warhammer 40k, and give Psi monks "HeadAches"? XD
and yeah I agre the hand motions should go. They're psykics and telecanetics, they dont wave theyre hands like that (since if I recall correctly, only magic has to do this, in order to form magic seals or something like that to perform the magic).
:) -
even today in some healing methods,
Moving your arms in certain ways, can calm the body, and the mind-
Moving them around your body, focus's your mind -
.. etc etc etc
Good enough Reason?
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