Weapon Discussion: Pistol-Combat Category

[Thanatos]

The concept has first been implemented for the pistol category, to allow first tests. In the second part of this post you will find some examples that will explain the implementation. But first, here’s the general ruleset for the separate categories again:

Damage:
-APU Weapons 100 %
-Cannons 90 %
-Rifles 80 %
-Pistols 75 %
-Melee Weapons 65 %

Bonus-System:
-HighTech Weapons + 5 % (additive)
-Rare Weapons + 7.5 % (exclusive)
-Epic Weapons + 9.5 % (exclusive)
-WoC Weapons + 10 % (exclusive)

Furthermore, additional weapon properties could change for rare, epic or WoC weapons: clip size, firing frequency, range etc.

Aim speed (1.50 – 4.50 Seconds, Min | Max):
-Melee Weapons deactivated
-PPU Weapons deactivated
-APU Weapons 0.75 1.50
-Pistols 0.75 2.25
-Rifles 1.00 3.00
-Cannons 2.00 4.50
Note: Smaller is better.

Aim precision (Reticule, Min | Max):
-APU Weapons 1.50 3.00
-Rifles 1.50 3.50
-Pistols 1.50 4.00
-Cannons 1.50 5.00
Note: Smaller is better

Firing frequency (45 – 120 shots/minute, Min | Max):
-Pistols 30 120
-Rifles 30 120
-Melee Weapons 40 60
-APU Weapons 30 60
-Cannons 15 45

The firing frequency is very weapon dependant – the values above serve as a general classification of each weapon type. We’d also like to point that the reload times are considered for these values, a smaller clip will result in larger single shot damage.

Range (50 – 600 Meters, Min | Max):
-Rifles 300 600
-Cannons 200 600
-APU Weapons 100 300
-Pistols 50 150
-Melee Weapons Striking distance (+tolerance factor)

Ranges have been revised down – however the exact effects of this point can easily be adjusted up or down. The relationships between the different weapon categories are more relevant at this point. Again, special settings for individual weapons are possible.

Clip Size
As it is pretty much impossible categorize clip sizes in a reasonable way, this value will depend on the weapon and the general concept. You can see how we set the sizes in the examples below.

Pistol Examples:
The following weapon properties are only the base values defined in the game. The player and his skills can improve these properties – the damage can be reduced by resistances. These examples should provide you with an idea of how we implemented the already discussed properties as well as the exceptions.

Example #1: Tangent ‘Wasteland Eagle’
Category: LowTech Pistols
TechLevel: 42
Modus: Single Shot
Aim speed: 2.06 Seconds (91 %)
Aim precision: 3.44 Reticule size (90 %)
Clip: 12 Shots
Real Firing Frequency: 44 / Minute
Range: 95 Meters
Ammo: 9mm Clip (Piercing), 30 Bullets, 320 Gramm

Damage per shot: 76.18 (Piercing)
Damage per minute: ca. 3344

Ammo variations: 9mm Explosive Clip (Force, Piercing)
9mm Phosphor Clip (Piercing, Fire)
9mm Uranium Clip (Piercing, X-Ray)

Rare-Variation: Wyatt Earp
TechLevel: 88
Aim speed: 1.52 (68 %)
Aim precision: 2.52 (63 %)
Clip: 16 Shots
Real Firing Frequency: 49 / Minute
Range: 131 Meters

Damage per shot: 224.07 (Piercing)
Damage per minute: ca. 10975

Example #2: S-337-f Submachine Gun
The range for the automatic pistol and the submachine gun have been corrected, it is about 75% of the normal range.

Category: LowTech Pistols
TechLevel: 38
Modus: Burst (4)
Aim speed: 2.10 Seconds (93 %)
Aim precision: 3.72 Reticule size (93 %)
Clip: 40 Shots
Real Firing Frequency: 188 / Minute
Range: 69 Meters
Ammo: 8mm Uzi Clip (Piercing), 40 Bullets, 480 Gramm

Damage per shot: 15.50 (Piercing)
Damage per minute: ca. 2905

Ammo variations: 8mm Explosive Uzi Clip (Force, Piercing)
8mm Phosphor Uzi Clip (Piercing, Fire)
8mm Uranium Uzi Clip (Piercing, X-Ray)

Rare-Variation: Liberator
TechLevel: 91
Aim speed: 1.48 (68 %)
Aim precision: 2.52 (62 %)
Clip: 40 Shots
Real Firing Frequency: 201 / Minute
Range: 100 Meters

Damage per shot: 57.75 (Piercing)
Damage per minute: ca. 11581

Example #3: Ionic Shotgun Pistol
This weapon has been change: The Ionic Shotgun Pistol is – according to its model – a double-shot weapon with 2 bullets. As already mentioned, this is compensated in the damage over time – so there is no damage loss! In addition, a new ammo line has been added. The range has been tuned down somewhat (80 %).

Category: LowTech Pistols
TechLevel: 95
Modus: Double Shots
Aim speed: 1.44 Seconds (64 %)
Aim precision: 2.36 Reticule size (59 %)
Clip: 2 Shots
Real Firing Frequency: 15 / Minute
Range: 110 Meters
Ammo: Ionic Shotgun Shells (Piercing, X-Ray), 24 Bullets, 432 Gramm

Damage per shot: 769.83 (Piercing)
Damage per minute: ca. 11548

Ammo variations: Ionic Shotgun Explosive Shells (Force, Piercing, X-Ray)
Ionic Shotgun Toxic Shells (Piercing, X-Ray, Poison)
Ionic Shotgun Uranium Shells (- Piercing, + X-Ray)

Example #4: Unlabeled ‘Sunray’ RayGun Pistol
The RayGun Pistol has also been changed: The ammo now deals energy and x-ray damage (previously only energy).

Category: HighTech Pistols
TechLevel: 57
Modus: Single Shot
Aim speed: 1.88 Seconds (84 %)
Aim precision: 3.26 Reticule size (81 %)
Clip: 12 Shots
Real Firing Frequency: 36 / Minute
Range: 128 Meters
Ammo: RayGun Pistol Ammo (Energy, X-Ray), 30 Bullets, 660 Gramm

Damage per shot: 152.11 (Energy, X-Ray)
Damage per minute: ca. 5475

Ammo variations: RayGun Pistol High-Frequented Ammo (+ Energy, + X-Ray)
RayGun Pistol Disunited Ammo (Fire, Energy, X-Ray)
RayGun Pistol Quantum Ammo (- Energy, + X-Ray)

Rare-Variante: Ray Of Last Hope
TechLevel: 108
Aim speed: 1.28 (57 %)
Aim precision: 2.07 (52 %)
Clip: 16 Shots
Real Firing Frequency: 39 / Minute
Range: 178 Meters

Damage per shot: 407.13 (Energy, X-Ray)
Damage per minute: ca. 16018

Example #5: Juggernaut Crossbow Pistol
Category: HighTech Pistols, WoC
TechLevel: 100
Modus: Single Shot
Aim speed: 1.38 Seconds (61 %)
Aim precision: 2.26 Reticule size (56 %)
Clip: 20 Shots
Real Firing Frequency: 38 / Minute
Range: 140 Meters
Ammo: Ionic Crossbow Pistol Ammo (Energy, X-Ray), 40 Bullets, 660 Gramm

Damage per shot: 384.89 (Energy, X-Ray)
Damage per minute: ca. 14433

We hope these examples give you a general idea of our plans – please let us know if something isn’t understandable.

Please read this information carefully if you want to seriously participate in the discussions – questions resulting from a mere quick scan through the post are really unnecessary!

[Safunte]

Example #1: Tangent ‘Wasteland Eagle’
Category: LowTech Pistols
TechLevel: 42
Modus: Single Shot
Aim speed: 2.06 Seconds (91 %)
Aim precision: 3.44 Reticule size (90 %)

Rare-Variation: Wyatt Earp
TechLevel: 88
Aim speed: 1.52 (68 %)
Aim precision: 2.52 (63 %)

are the percentages shown all showing the differences of pre-balance to post-balance? If so, it seems as though pistols are locking on very slowly compared to what they were... which means that everything else would be locking on even slower(except apu), which means... i disagree =)

Oh and on paper, the RoLH seems to be better than the crossbow (which is 8 tech levels lower) and even with this 12.5% bonus to RoLH and the 15% bonus to the crossbow, the RoLH should act as though its tl 121.5 and the crossbow should act as though its tl 115. This doesn't factor in the differences in the weapon types though. As shown below, the crossbow is a far better choice because of the decreased damage over range of the RoLH means that the crossbow is almost equal at a pointblank range, but over distance is better than something that should be about 4% stronger than it overall.

[Pantho]

Please read this information carefully if you want to seriously participate in the discussions – questions resulting from a mere quick scan through the post are really unnecessary!

well done Safunte...

anyways i Beleive the Xbow shouldnt be out damaged by a ROLH. Maybe they should increase its TL to 115

[John Doe]

The percentage values are linked to the group of pistols:

AimSpeed RolH: 1.52 Seconds -> 68 % of 2.25 Seconds (Group-Definition)
AimPrecision RolH: 2.52 Crosshair Size -> 63 % of 4.00 MaxSize (Group-Definition)

The Bonus-System raises the Damage-Point-Value wich will be scaled by the TechLevel of the weapon - the TechLevel will stay untouched or uncalculated. If you have two weapons with the same TechLevel you can see that a WoC-Weapon will be a little bit better than a Rare-Weapon.

If we decide to make the X-Bow stronger we have to choose a higher TechLevel first.

[Pantho]

I ment move Xbow to TL115 not RoLh.


hmmm

[Zheo]

It was mentioned new weapons, Are we going to have some say on what these are? I have a few ideas from other games :) Also I'd like to see epic weapons moved up to around tl 100, because assuming everything is balanced a tl 75 gatlin cannon will become useless as a pvp weapon...I mean more so.

[silent000]

I like the thing uve done with " Ionic shotgun pistol" :D and how much slower will the xbow freq be, i dont have its current freq with me now so im not sure

And sorry if this is a noob question, but what category does the Ceres Beretta come into this?

[yuuki]

moving the speedy to tl 100 would be the end for hc pes :(
(at least concerning lotech)

[John Doe]

@Pantho: Yes, I've understood your point ...

[Kame]

I think pistols should be the fastest to aim, not apu. In fact APU stuff should e around as hard to use (reticule-wise) then HC.

[Dribble Joy]

Given equal skilling, I'd preffer all systems to aim and aim to the same degree.

Also again eith the gggggggrrrr regarding WoC weaons beting better than other things. You would think with the vast amounts of people saying they want them to be equally viable that you might make them so.

One quick thing, why does the ionic shotgun pistol and the libby do the same dmg/time? They are both low tech too.

[Apocalypsox]

Drib people get so pissed about WoC weapons doing 3 more damage than an exec...when the person using the gun on you was already fucking specced for an exec/slasher before the Xbow came out. its 3 damage for a woc disk, often costing around 20 mil, a few hundred mil xp, and no life for about 2 months. for 3 damage. woo hoo. im gonna go farm that shit out RIGHT NOW. :mad:

[silent000]

How dare you i say i had no life...... well it was true :( And what have u done to my X-Bow the damn thing was under powered in the first place, all the players just wanna see me cry they are all liars!!! honest

[Pantho]

xbow does less dmg to my PPU than a exec.

But the Clip size is a big winner

[Dribble Joy]

Drib people get so pissed about WoC weapons doing 3 more damage than an exec...when the person using the gun on you was already fucking specced for an exec/slasher before the Xbow came out. its 3 damage for a woc disk, often costing around 20 mil, a few hundred mil xp, and no life for about 2 months. for 3 damage. woo hoo. im gonna go farm that shit out RIGHT NOW. :mad:
Remember that what is now has little or no baring on what may be after the balancing.

[giga191]

don't forget to alter the tl of the ceres pistol, it's too hard to cap for a lowtech gun. I think it should do poison and pierce damage

[unreal]

If it's not possible to change the TL without repercussions you could make a mod that adds 50% to all the stats (only on the Ceres Weapons of course) so it can be made artifact.

[giga191]

If we decide to make the X-Bow stronger we have to choose a higher TechLevel first. and make them have all 120 stats? it already takes the same amount of pistol combat to cap as a pistol of around tl110

[Tratos]

i like that the ionic ammunition has made it for the ion shotgun weapons :) the change to ray weapons is also good as it gives a bit of seperation from plasma perhaps laser should also deal heat in the standard ammo for further damage variation.

Ever so slightly off topic - and possibly mis-guided, my Neocron knowledge is slipping atm :p

I generally like the way this is going.

[unreal]

the change to ray weapons is also good as it gives a bit of seperation from plasmaWith only one problem. Rayguns will most likely still be useless on anything other than a standing target, so the changes here will have no effect whatsoever. Are raygun weapons going to be fixed, or the type or fire changed so they're actually usable in PvP at all?

[Spermy]

With only one problem. Rayguns will most likely still be useless on anything other than a standing target, so the changes here will have no effect whatsoever. Are raygun weapons going to be fixed, or the type or fire changed so they're actually usable in PvP at all?

What do you think about Raygun as a DoT? As they are I agree they aren't too viable, at least this way it gives them another dimension ( Plop the dots as an opening shot, or just before a reload on another weapon)

[unreal]

DoT as in Damage over Time? I wouldn't mind it being anything as long as it does more than 2 damage to a running target. If it was turned into a DoT type weapon I would prefer the amount of time it does damage in to be small, similair to the Fire Apoclypse and Wyatt Earp, rather than the likes of a long lasting poison stack a mob would put on you.

But having said that, it could be designed as a secondary sort of weapon, similair to the way the APU toxic beam and such spells are generally used. To slap a quick few stacks on the person knowing they'll have poor resists of that particular type, then switch to your main weapon to blast the crap out of them. This would also be a nice way to add the poison damage to the Ceres Weapons *cough* making them a worth while weapon to shoot people with.

At the moment, partly because it's too hard to cap for use in PvP, I only shoot things like Houndbots and just various low level mobs (especially when doing Aggressor Captain missions :p) with my Baretta to be stylish. I've actually made 6 proper kills with it though, but only in combination with my Slasher. lol

[giga191]

with the amount of pc it takes to cap ceres pistol, you'd be better off with a wyatt earp :\

[Dribble Joy]

I'd like the WoC weapons to be equally as attainable at 120% as the other weapons. Just make the regular mods work (or bring out WoC mods). Then balance them just the same as the other weapons.

I was going to say that lowtechs can't really go about about tl93-5, because why would you use a hightech over a lowtech of the same tl when you have to spec all that TC. But with the high tech dmg bonus, the TC speccing would allow high and low tech weapons throughout the tl range.

[giga191]

I'd like the WoC weapons to be equally as attainable at 120% as the other weapons. Just make the regular mods work (or bring out WoC mods). Then balance them just the same as the other weapons.
that's not really fair since you can only do the missions a limited number of times and the slots are quite low on xbow

[Safunte]

We've basically already lost the purpose of this thread... we're supposed to comment, question, and perhaps disagree with the data given here towards a goal of satisfactory or unsatisfactory changes.

[Sylow]

We've basically already lost the purpose of this thread... we're supposed to comment, question, and perhaps disagree with the data given here towards a goal of satisfactory or unsatisfactory changes.

If a concept or suggestion gets only limited discussion, some agreement and very little heat and critical answers, this means that the community mostly agrees with it. I would consider this rather positive. :)

People are looking at small details and theorize about some things, i consider it to be still in the wider scope of the topic. :)

Going too deep into detail won't do much good as long as we don't get to play it hands on for some time.

[giga191]

Going too deep into detail won't do much good as long as we don't get to play it hands on for some time. in some cases it will do some good because otherwise it just gets left out and forgotten, and i personally don't want to play with any balancing problems for another 5+ years when KK run the next balancing project

[Argent]

Why is the WoC bonus still 2,5% higher than rares?

[SorkZmok]

Why is the WoC bonus still 2,5% higher than rares?
Because no one would ever grind that much xp to just use a gun that looks different. The time invested for woc should give a small bonus. And i hardly doubt 2.5% would overpower woc weapons.

Like the woc pa. Costs a fucking fortune, can drop and gives absolutely nothing special apart from being the first guy to be attacked no matter where. Pretty much no one is wearing one.

[unreal]

Yeah, the thread has kind of lost the plot a bit in regards to the whole WoC thing, as always. I think it would be best to just take into account what's already been said (productively) and get things under way. But considering the topic has lost the plot a bit, does anyone know if a public test server is going to be available to us all this time round? I hope these changes aren't going to be slapped onto the retail servers, making us put up possible new bugs.

I'm sure someone has already talked about that at some point so sorry for asking, but skipping through a large amount of threads on a non-GUI browser would take me quite a while, at work at the moment. :p

Edit: [removed by thy self because it's waaay more off topic] I wear my WoC PA out of safe zones though, even though I disagree with the pricetag. Already at 30/120 condition. :(

[Zheo]

Unreal it's been said a thusand times that things will be tested on a test server before it goes live! That said, I have a question too :D Are we going to be given a chance to ask for things to be added in, such as more actions (emotes) I have like a list here somewhere... ...never mind I wont post it until it's relivent. I do agree that WOC pa should be un-droppable tbh with the stupidly high price you pay you diserve a little extra, and what about that damn level two stuff that you only get from special GM events WTF are you going to do if you lose one of those!?

[giga191]

2.5% dmg difference between rares and woc weapons!!? in most cases that's around 1 point extra dmg per shot

[unreal]

Unreal it's been said a thusand times that things will be tested on a test server before it goes live!Well, I've only paid attention to the threads that I cared about, ie, PPU, Pistol Combat, and probably another one, until they get turned into spam, in which case I stopped reading them altogether. I've also been banned for a while as well, so it's easier to ask a question. And I got my answer, so ty. ;) The WOC PA's should all repair back to 120/120. That should be the main bonus for using them. Maybe making the PA usable after genrepping would be nice (ie, only a woc dex 1 requirement, instead of the 115 dex on top of that) too. The level 1 WOC PA's should definitely drop in belts, but considering the level 2's are prize-only, they should be just like epics, undroppable and repair to 120/120.

PS. I was hinting at a test server the community could use, instead of using the retail servers as the test subject, which is what always happens.

[John Doe]

There will be a Testserver - this is 100 percent granted. Nothing of this will go live until we (and you) confirm the changes for the balancing.

We will give you enough time to try out these changes and to find possible new bugs or even wrong concepts - and after that we will go live!

[Tratos]

There will be a Testserver - this is 100 percent granted. Nothing of this will go live until we (and you) confirm the changes for the balancing.

We will give you enough time to try out these changes and to find possible new bugs or even wrong concepts - and after that we will go live!
That's excellent to know :)

[unreal]

heh, Great. Curious how we're going to be able to test things though. Will our newly created characters start off with capped int/str/con/dext/psi? I'm guessing there will have to be free all artifact 5 slot modded weapons/rares available from NPC's, along with the armour/drugs too? Otherwise apart from spawning with a full set of weaponry (which will obviously overload us) in our inventory at character creation time, I'm not sure how it'll work. I doubt we'll be given the ability to spawn our own items. lol We'll see when the time comes I guess, unless John Doe mentions something. :rolleyes:

[Safunte]

There will be a Testserver - this is 100 percent granted. Nothing of this will go live until we (and you) confirm the changes for the balancing.

We will give you enough time to try out these changes and to find possible new bugs or even wrong concepts - and after that we will go live!

Make new threads after the test server, where people can still contribute to what should be changed. Read that *CHANGED*, We may find wrong concepts and new bugs, but they should be given adequate attention and time to be fixed.

EDIT::: And whats the point of all the weapon classes being given the same min aim precision to make them equal in that regard when none of the actual weapons reach the minimum?

[John Doe]

@Unreal: We will try to make it as easy as possible to get the most out of it.

@Safunte: Yes, there should be a higher care for the balancing-changes - we will do this if it is necessary. And the target-thing: You can manipulate the weapon-abilities with your skills - the Min-Target-Size should be very hard to close, but it is possible. The first thing it should say is: Everyone (every class) can reach the same precision (but with a different amount of time).

[Safunte]

@Unreal: We will try to make it as easy as possible to get the most out of it.

@Safunte: Yes, there should be a higher care for the balancing-changes - we will do this if it is necessary. And the target-thing: You can manipulate the weapon-abilities with your skills - the Min-Target-Size should be very hard to close, but it is possible. The first thing it should say is: Everyone (every class) can reach the same precision (but with a different amount of time).

good to hear.

[Bishop Yutani]

There will be a Testserver - this is 100 percent granted. Nothing of this will go live until we (and you) confirm the changes for the balancing.

Thanks. This makes me happy. I had anticipated the idea was going to be overlooked in favor of getting it out quicker.

[Dribble Joy]

Because no one would ever grind that much xp to just use a gun that looks different.
I would..... (especially if they brough back the old judge model :p)
The time invested for woc should give a small bonus.
Agreed, but I'd rather it be something completely separate from performance bonuses.

[giga191]

>.>
i think PEs shouldn't be allowed to use judge any more
<.<











(jk)