View Full Version : Weapon Discussion: Rifle-Combat Category
Due to health issues Thanatos is not able to start the next discussion topic. Therefore I am opening the discussion about the rifle combat category. Further discussion topics will be started as ususal by Thanatos when he is fit again.
We have now implemented the concept for the Rifle category we also have added examples again (in the second part of this post). In the first part, you can find the general ruleset again (small adjustments for frequencies and ranges):
Damage (Over Time):
- APU Weapons 100 %
- Cannons 90 %
- Rifles 80 %
- Pistols 75 %
- Melee Weapons 65 %
Bonus-System:
- HighTech Weapons + 5 % (additive)
- Rare Weapons + 7.5 % (exclusive)
- Epic Weapons + 9.5 % (exclusive)
- WoC Weapons + 10 % (exclusive)
Furthermore, additional weapon properties could change for rare, epic or WoC weapons: clip size, firing frequency, range etc.
Aim speed (1.50 4.50 Seconds, Min | Max):
- Melee Weapons deactivated
- PPU Weapons deactivated
- APU Weapons 0.75 1.50
- Pistols 0.75 2.25
- Rifles 1.00 3.00
- Cannons 2.00 4.50
Note: Smaller is better.
Aim precision (Reticule, Min | Max):
- APU Weapons 1.50 3.00
- Rifles 1.50 3.50
- Pistols 1.50 4.00
- Cannons 1.50 5.00
Note: Smaller is better
Firing frequency (45 120 shots/minute, Min | Max):
- Rifles 45 120
- Pistols 30 120
- Melee Weapons 40 60
- APU Weapons 30 60
- Cannons 15 45
Note: The rifles have received a higher base value (45), but end up with the same maximum frequency as pistols. However, this applies again: the frequency greatly depends on the weapon. This value is used for a general classification of a weapon (TechLevel) and corrects the damage over time (meaning that frequency and reload times are considered in the balancing).
Range (50 600 Meters, Min | Max):
- Cannons 300 600
- Rifles 200 600
- APU Weapons 100 300
- Pistols 50 150
- Melee Weapons Striking distance (+tolerance factor)
There has been a small change for cannons: The base value is higher (300) increasing the guaranteed range of cannons. Therefore cannons and rifles have the same maximal range. The sniper rifle will show you that this list is only a guideline, its range goes well above that!
The tests in this area went pretty well. There definitely is a different feeling between the different types which should lead to a different combat behavior.
Clip size
As already mentioned in the pistol-combat thread, we will not give any guidelines here, as they would barely apply to any weapon. This value is defined individually for each weapon.
Rifle Examples:
Note: Smaller is better
Aim speed (Rifles): 3.00 Seconds
Aim precision (Rifles): 3.50 times of crosshair-size
Example #1: Assault Rifle
Category: LowTech Rifles
TechLevel: 44
Mode: Singleshot
Aim speed: 2.71 Seconds (90 %)
Aim precision: 3.14 Initial size of crosshair (90 %)
Clip: 20 Shots
Real Firing Frequency: 66.67 / Minute
Range: 387 Meters
Ammo: 5.56mm Rounds (Piercing), 50 Bullets, 940 Gramm
Damage per shot: 63.48 (Piercing)
Damage per minute: ca. 4232
Ammo variations: 5.56mm Explosive Rounds (+ Force)
5.56mm Phosphor Rounds (+ Fire)
5.56mm Uranium Rounds (+ X-Ray)
Rare-Variation: Pain Easer
TechLevel: 93
Mode: Burst (3)
Aim speed: 1.95 (65 %)
Aim precision: 2.19 (63 %)
Clip: 30 Schuί
Real Firing Frequency: 96 / Minute
Range: 540 Meters
Damage per shot: 135.73 (Piercing)
Damage per minute: ca. 13060
Example #2: Enhanced Gatlin Rifle
Category: LowTech Rifles
TechLevel: 79
Mode: Burst (4)
Aim speed: 2.16 Seconds (72 %)
Aim precision: 2.46 Initial size of crosshair (70 %)
Clip: 40 Shots
Real Firing Frequency: 332.8 / Minute
Range: 397.5 Meters (Correction: 80%)
Ammo: Gatlin Rifle Ammo (Piercing), 100 Bullets, 1280 Gramm
Damage per shot: 28.68 (Piercing)
Damage per minute: ca. 9542
Ammo variations: Gatlin Rifle Explosive Ammo (+ Force)
Gatlin Rifle Phosphor Ammo (+ Fire)
Gatlin Rifle Uranium Ammo (+ X-Ray)
Example #3: Ceres Assault Rifle CAR-47
Category: LowTech Rifles, WoC
TechLevel: 113
Mode: Burst (3)
Aim speed: 1.63 Seconds (54 %)
Aim precision: 1.79 Initial size of crosshair (51 %)
Clip: 30 Shots
Real Firing Frequency: 263.4 / Minute
Range: 603 Meters
Ammo: Enhanced Genotoxic 7.62mm Rifle Rounds (Piercing, Poison), 30 Bullets, 585 Gramm
Damage per shot: 68.28 (Piercing, Poison)
Damage per minute: ca. 17986
Example #4: R-AS331 RayGun
Category: HighTech Rifles
TechLevel: 76
Mode: Singleshot
Aim speed: 2.21 Seconds (74 %)
Aim precision: 2.52 Initial size of crosshair (72 %)
Clip: 15 Shots
Real Firing Frequency: 36 / Minute
Range: 487 Meters
Ammo: RayGun Rifle Ammo (Energy, X-Ray), 30 Bullets,
720 Gramm
Damage per shot: 257.83 (Energy, X-Ray)
Damage per minute: ca. 9471
Ammo variations: RayGun Rifle High-Frequented Ammo
RayGun Rifle Disunited Ammo (- Energy, - X-Ray, + Fire)
RayGun Rifle Quantum Ammo (- Piercing, + X-Ray)
Rare-Variation: Ray Of God
TechLevel: 98
Mode: Singleshot
Aim speed: 1.87 (62 %)
Aim precision: 2.08 (60 %)
Clip: 20 Shots
Real Firing Frequency: 37.5 / Minute
Range: 556 Meters
Damage per shot: 394.42 (Energy, X-Ray)
Damage per minute: ca. 14790
Example #5: Tangent Sniper Rifle
Category: HighTech Rifles
TechLevel: 38
Mode: Singleshot
Aim speed: 2.81 Seconds (94 %)
Aim precision: 3.26 Initial size of crosshair (93 %)
Clip: 8 Shots
Real Firing Frequency: 22 / Minute
Range: 830 Meters
Ammo: Enhanced 7.62mm Sniper Rounds (Piercing), 16 Bullets,
320 Gramm
Damage per shot: 168.19 (Piercing)
Damage per minute: ca. 3669
Ammo variations: Enhanced 7.62mm Explosive Sniper Rounds (+ Force)
Enhanced 7.62mm Phosphor Sniper Rounds (+ Fire)
Enhanced 7.62mm Uranium Sniper Rounds (+ X-Ray)
Rare-Variation: Silent Hunter
TechLevel: 111
Mode: Singleshot
Aim speed: 1.67 (56 %)
Aim precision: 1.83 (52 %)
Clip: 8 Shots
Real Firing Frequency: 26.67 / Minute
Range: 1342 Meter (Correction: 225 %)
Damage per shot: 671.03 (Piercing)
Damage per minute: ca. 17894
aren't those numbers listed under Damage, the damage per shot?
Damage-Output (per time unit):
-APU Weapons
-Melee Weapons
-Cannons
-Pistols
-Rifles
I also don't understand why the ceres rifle is tl113 still when it's a lowtech weapons :confused:
Sorry - but we've skipped the damage per shot figures - this part means the highest amount over time (Damage over time). The highest one-shot (hit, cast) damage will have the groups with the lowest frequency (H-C, M-C and APU).
We've balanced the weapons - we don't have said that we want to change any lowtech-/hightech-weapons to a specific tl-range (see examples):
Juggernaut Crossbow Pistol - HighTech - TL 100
Ceres Handgun BHG-9 - LowTech - TL 113
Ceres Assault Rifle CAR-47 - LowTech - TL 113
We've allready get this point in the german "Pistol Combat Thread" today - there is no rule for that topic ...
I don't really know where else to put this...
What about the ion guns, are they gonna get their own ammo and damagetype?
And the ceres guns, it's a pain in the ass to get ammo. You can't even get all the parts needed for both guns. o_O
What about the ion guns, are they gonna get their own ammo and damagetype?
In the pistol thread it mentions ionic shotgun shells are now part of the ammo line up so i imagine this will be true for the rifle and cannon varients.
Things are looking good, i agree with the hightec/lowtech argument i just think the term 'techlevel' confuses the matter.
Things are looking good, i agree with the hightec/lowtech argument i just think the term 'techlevel' confuses the matter. i was thinking more along the lines of it causing PEs to have no woc weapons. from what i've understood so far, they are taking away juggernaught pistol from PEs and are restricting their ability to reach high tl weapons
Nice adding poison to the ceres wepaons, maybe they r now useable but still they r still TL 113 and the ammo is a cunt to get, i hope it will be worth the trouble now
are you still going to need over 190 rifle combat to cap it? :rolleyes:
and yes that was with a 4 slot ultimated one
Yes - they've got their own ammo-type now. If you look at the pistol-thread you can find the specs (first post - example #3) - rifle and cannon uses the same ammo as the pistol.
There is a german discussion started (inside the thread about pistol combat) about the general lowtech-/hightech-settings - does it make sense to setup a general range for any kind of rare- or woc-weapons?
For example:
Rare-Variations: TechLevel 100 - 110 (theoretical)
WoC-Items: TechLevel 105 - 115 (theoretical)
Dribble Joy
02-08-06, 18:49
are you still going to need over 190 rifle combat to cap it? :rolleyes:
and yes that was with a 4 slot ultimated one
Well I'd preffer an open ended skill system whereby it's impossible to cap either of (or maybe both) the main offensive stats on a weapon (dmg or freq). As long as the defencive variation is equal to the potential varitaion in offence, you could be viable with whatever amount of skilling. Ie. something similar to what we had in NC1/NC2 before the skill changes, whereby you could opt for a dist3 over a ppr and remain at the same offence/defense level.
So rather than thinking about weapon dmg/time at cap for balancing, we should think about dmg/time for a given amount of skilling.
As for this thread's main subject, I can't say much as I can't get hold of them untill the TS comes along. I still say that pistol range is too high, but again, 50 m ingame maybe less than I would imagine.
There is a german discussion started (inside the thread about pistol combat) about the general lowtech-/hightech-settings - does it make sense to setup a general range for any kind of rare- or woc-weapons?
For example:
Rare-Variations: TechLevel 100 - 110 (theoretical)
WoC-Items: TechLevel 105 - 115 (theoretical)
Personal preference:
Rare-Variations: TechLevel 100 - 100 (theoretical)
WoC-Items: TechLevel 100 - 100 (theoretical)
Both regarding cap/skilling requirments and their overall performance at cap/for a given skilling.
I also don't understand why the ceres rifle is tl113 still when it's a lowtech weapons :confused:
Remember the high tech bonus.
It shouldn't matter if there is a tl100 low tech and a tl100 high tech, though you gain dmg/time for the hightech dmg bonus, the skilling of TC should bring it back down to the correct level (assuming that the hightech bonus is equal to the TC effect on PC/RC.
As for not being able to use WoC weapons, I agree. We need them scattered about the TL tree, not just 115+.
ashley watts
02-08-06, 22:09
I seriously Don't agree with WoC, Rare and Epic weapons Getting A Bonus :/ It wouldent exactly be balancing Anything :(
Dribble Joy
02-08-06, 23:27
I seriously Don't agree with WoC, Rare and Epic weapons Getting A Bonus :/ It wouldent exactly be balancing Anything :(
Epic's not so bad, as most of them are below even the lowest reach of the 'viable' PvP weapons.
Apocalypsox
03-08-06, 00:06
tbh the tangent epics aint HORRIBLY bad- but the TSU is :p
Dribble Joy
03-08-06, 00:41
On the subject of poison:
If poison is going to be integral to the dmg proportions of a weapon as with a 'standard' dmg type, then we are going to have to consider making POR armour/resists more availble (armour and/or imp) and possibly making S/D reduce it (speccing equal f/x/e/por won't be enough if a weapon does as much % poison as with an xray mod).
Well I'd preffer an open ended skill system whereby it's impossible to cap either of (or maybe both) the main offensive stats on a weapon (dmg or freq). As long as the defencive variation is equal to the potential varitaion in offence, you could be viable with whatever amount of skilling. Ie. something similar to what we had in NC1/NC2 before the skill changes, whereby you could opt for a dist3 over a ppr and remain at the same offence/defense level.
I also like this concept.
Though, i have the feeling that the mayority of the playerbase would seriously oppose it.
On the subject of poison:
If poison is going to be integral to the dmg proportions of a weapon as with a 'standard' dmg type, then we are going to have to consider making POR armour/resists more availble (armour and/or imp) and possibly making S/D reduce it (speccing equal f/x/e/por won't be enough if a weapon does as much % poison as with an xray mod).
Aye. Poison currently is not a massive problem in PvP, but only since most classes don't have access to any weapon which can be modded for poison and does acceptable damage.
If this damage type becomes freely available, the "poison hole" in shelter can make it the one and only damage type to use... so, shelter should in the future also reduce poison damage.
For example:
Rare-Variations: TechLevel 100 - 110 (theoretical)
WoC-Items: TechLevel 105 - 115 (theoretical) i don't think that either should be restricted by TL.
To me rare just means a hard to obtain item and WoC is the next stage up from rare (personally i'd like to see the difference increased to at least 5% or have some other advantages from the woc items). WoC weapons should be spread over a range of tls, so that players have a choice of what setups to use, especially since part of the fun of the game is that you can to make your character however you want with as few as possible bad choices.
I just think it makes sense to have ceres pistol and ceres rifle as a choice for lowtech pistol/rifle PEs, and then make xbow/new hightech woc rifle for spies or PEs who want to weaken their defence a lot to use it
I think Wisdom of Ceres weapons should give you the "Wisdom" of creating strange setups compared to normal. I think the WoC level should be the requirement alone, getting rid of the additional n dex requirement, which would let you come up with all sorts of interesting setups.
Thinking about it though, it would be a tad stupid, because it means Private Eyes as a whole would become overpowered, because apart from Tanks they're the only ones with the most versatility. Spies have almost no room for changing their setup as we see it at the moment, and Monks obviously won't be able to.
If the Crossbow for example got rid of the 100 dext requirement, a PE wouldn't need to boost his dexterity using implants, so switching them with HC/strength boosting ones, he could easily be a hybrid HC Crossbow PE, but with uber resists. Crossbow, Speedgat and Devourer would be quite lethal. :p
Dribble Joy
03-08-06, 13:06
My general opinion is that WoC should not focus around weapons. I have no issue with WoC req weapons as long as they provide no performance bonus that would make them a requirement for PvP.
What I would like WoC skills to be is.... skills. Non performance extras that are of use but perectly livable without.
Was going to list ideas, but I think that's for a different thread :D.
Anyway, getting back to the subject at hand (rifle, for those who forgot):
Erm... think I've said all I wanted too actually..
Though I'd still prefer max recticle speed the same across classes.
Seraphin[69]
03-08-06, 14:31
If the Crossbow for example got rid of the 100 dext requirement, a PE wouldn't need to boost his dexterity using implants, so switching them with HC/strength boosting ones, he could easily be a hybrid HC Crossbow PE, but with uber resists. Crossbow, Speedgat and Devourer would be quite lethal. :p
IMO the PE shouldn't be able to use the high TL weapons like healing light, xbow, slasher with almost a cap on them... ATM when I see a Xbow PE (requires weapon lore) casting SD at a decent speed (need psi use) and able to hack my belt (need hack) I feel like there's a problem... spies should be able to do that, not the PEs :p
If the Crossbow for example got rid of the 100 dext requirementAs far as I know it only has WoC DEX level 1 and 83 T-C as requirements listed. Does WoC level 1 imply having 100 DEX or is it some kind of flag independent of the actual DEX level?
PE can cap every Weapon in the game "Dex based"
From the figures i dont get any idea of what it will actually do ingame, ofcourse i get the idea that it shd balance the weps better, ok so does that mean for instance, that i shd expect to see my PainEaser do more dmg than my way lower TL TSU Rifle in the future?
I just got a PainEaser the other day, i chked that i capped it and i sure did, then i went trying it out on 50/50 (launchers) it did like 66 a shot w/o ammo conversion.
Then this guy at the bunker said to me "Its sad to see the PE doing so little dmg compared to my TSU Rifle that i dont even cap yet"
I got hold of a TSU rifle, i modded it for phospohor and explosive ammo, then went trying it out on the launchers, it did like 86 dmg a shot with explosive and 101 dmg a shot with the phosphor.
I havent yet tried it out with basic ammo, but it looks to me it sure is better than the PE, and its way easier to cap it as the reqs is way lower! :D
Yeah, Sizzler, I've barely read the new values for more than a few of the different weapon types. It would be a lot simpler for everyone if first the changes were summarized in plain english (ie. "this type of weapon now has less range and damage, but higher frequency, etc), so we don't have to try and compare the new to the old every single time to see what's been changed.
It would be even better if the proposals were put on the test server and let everyone in the community test them out before commenting on them (including existing expired accounts, more FREE time will let people think about returning to see how the balancing is coming along - then hopefully they'll get the neocrack and resubscribe). For all we know the original proposals might work out to be quite good, not needing as much changes as we thought.As far as I know it only has WoC DEX level 1 and 83 T-C as requirements listed.Errr, good point, lol. I was thinking more about the Ceres weapons at the time and for some reason thought the Crossbow had one of those requirements too (damn, I've checked the info on mine often enough). You saw what I was thinking anyway. :rolleyes:Does WoC level 1 imply having 100 DEX or is it some kind of flag independent of the actual DEX level?Nope, it's just a (requirement) level like any other. Once you've got your WOC level, above where it shows your SI on the Skills window, it lists "Wisdom of Ceres: type +level (eg. dex +1).
Every weapon should have their own advantage or be better than all other weapons in a particular area. It is part of what makes a weapon unique, otherwise if one weapon was top in more areas than others, it would be the only one used.
Rifles will be equal to Pistols in frequency (as a general rule), which is about as good as it gets. Still it is not balanced though: Rifles need more points invested to cap, plus they reduce your run speed (yes so do cannons, but at least they have a higher range and do greater damage).
Still it is not balanced though: Rifles need more points invested to cap, plus they reduce your run speed (yes so do cannons, but at least they have a higher range and do greater damage).
From the first posting:
Rare-Variation: Silent Hunter
[...]
Range: 1342 Meter (Correction: 225 %)
1. Tell me, which cannon got any range close to that, please?
2. Tell me how you know that rifles will still require more skillpoints than other weapons in the future? From all we see from the concept, i would conclude that it won't be like that any more. (There's no official statement on that, but if damage and requirements are based upon TL, i would guess that caps are also similar for the same TL. )
Only thing which rifles probably still require more is weapon lore. And in terms of damage, rifles also don't seem to be bad, guessing from the examples we got.
From the first posting:
Rare-Variation: Silent Hunter
[...]
Range: 1342 Meter (Correction: 225 %)
1. Tell me, which cannon got any range close to that, please?
None
There has been a small change for cannons: The base value is higher (300) increasing the guaranteed range of cannons. Therefore cannons and rifles have the same maximal range. The sniper rifle will show you that this list is only a guideline, its range goes well above that!
Read and digest that bit.
None
Read and digest that bit.
Oki... guess further explanation is necessary... taken from the german counterpart of this thread. [Yes, i noticed... as long as Carnage was around, the english part of the forums usually was more informative than the german one. By now, the german one gets more of feedback. On the topics of rifles, John Doe gave quite some info in the german section. ]
The "base maximum range" of rifles and cannons was set to the same value. This means, top grade cannons can compete with top grade non-sniper rifles. (So, a cannon and an assault rifle will have the same maximum range. )
Sniper rifles, on the other hand, have an extra range bonus. The initial post hinted towards it with the "Correction: 225 %". This means, any rifle which is definied as sniper rifle will still have a good deal more of range than a cannon.
All this range discussion becomes useless if the mobs can only be hit up to a certain range. As it stands right now a Ravager has a range of like 800m+ ingame (roughly, depends on skills and weapon stats). That's pretty far already. A STORM Laser has a range of 1.5km+, which surpasses even some rifles. I dunno up to which range you can hit mobs, and if that inreased range gives some other advantages. If not, I see no point in discussing over weapons having a range of 1.5km or "just" 1km.
Damage (Over Time):
-APU Weapons 100 %
-Cannons 90 %
-Rifles 80 %
-Pistols 75 %
-Melee Weapons 65 %
Damage-Output (per shot):
-APU Weapons (100%)
-Cannons (90%)
-Rifle (80%)
-Pistol (75%)
-Melee Weapons (65%)
is it a coincidence that these are exactly the same?
what i meant with my first post was the damage over time is far more relevant than damage per shot, i wasn't saying that what you had posted was supposed to be damage over time.
Another question on range, if sniper rifles are getting this huge range bonus - is something happeneing to fog/draw distance? otherwise it's pretty pointless :/
Well I'd preffer an open ended skill system whereby it's impossible to cap either of (or maybe both) the main offensive stats on a weapon (dmg or freq)
well i dont say it often but id have to totaly agree with you here
=]
also it would be usefull because people would take actual riful buffs instead of meele for the hp bonus and so on... it enables people to have more variety in there setup rather than the pure minimum requiered to cap
Another question on range, if sniper rifles are getting this huge range bonus - is something happeneing to fog/draw distance? otherwise it's pretty pointless :/
A damn fine point! Haven't heard anything on this as yet. There's been a few ideas on it, but no feedback from the officials.
A damn fine point! Haven't heard anything on this as yet. There's been a few ideas on it, but no feedback from the officials.
Even with the limited range and the fog sniping always been fine as far as i know. Its range is reasonable and for me, doesn't need any changes.
Now we can't do anything if a sniper has a low comp so he has to put fog on.
The sniper rifle will show you that this list is only a guideline, its range goes well above that!Yeah... I'm gonna have to say:
NO FUCKING WAY
Unless you're going to prove to us beyond a shadow of a doubt that the engine's clipping distance and range problems are fixed, DO NOT USE RANGES THAT DON'T WORK IN-GAME FOR BALANCING. You'll be punshing all rifle users YET AGAIN.
Either FIX THE ENGINE or balance given the engine's painfully obvious limitations. Don't pull this range bullshit AGAIN, especially if you can't/don't/won't prove that clipping distance and range are fixed.
Christ, it's been FIVE YEARS dude. WTF do us rifle users have to do to get any sort of respect from KK? The blowing sunshine-up-the-ass thing got old a long time ago.
does it make sense to setup a general range for any kind of rare- or woc-weapons?Not to me. That just makes WoC the new endgame requirement in combat instead of rares, punshing every casual gamer in NC (however many few are left).
i do agree with Ice.
My rifler been parked for too long now .. and he has woc 1 req exp and all that bullshit. i have no reason using him ... since rifles do not work as they need to.
On top of that we all know engine needs a boost .. a great one. It seems most range and aiming talk now sounds like a quick fix solution to avoid engine upgrade. We stilll cannot see past 600-700m. Add some weather and day/evening/nights cycles.
People are moving during combat. Have anyone tried following monks/melle tanks/pistol users with silent hunter @ 300-400 range? how about while being scoped? i bet most of your shots were not successfull , unless other party has a higher ping than yours and you cought them on "update point" few times. Why sniper rifles need the "aim" in first place ? we have THE slowest rate of fire, yet we still have to aim like most people to make a shot.
How about we dissable aiming on sniper rifles in scoped position ( point and click as APU have it now ... BUT with the line of sight). IF scope is not used player goes through normal aiming process. I would even go further and add that function to a normal burst rifles(all of rifles except shotguns) but with added need to use of laser pointer(scope+laser pointer)to enable it, so one can use Healing light for example in same fashion. Shoot and KEEP shooting while enemy runs around looking for you to respond.
Example .. Two players meet on battlefield ... pistol user and rifler. rifler has to have an advantage since he has range of his rifle ... while pistol user tries to get as close to possible to aim , rifler tries to take him out. Considering in NC it happends in matter of few seconds .... aiming for rifler is total killer. while able to put few bullets in enemy rifler would switch back to nonscoped view to fight up close, where pistol user has advantage .. speed and faster aiming. In Theory rifler could take out 20-40 % of health of pistoller before engaging in close combat, as it is meant in reality.
how about Monk or tank v/s rifler ? tank has huge advantage in con .. monk has a huge advantage in damage. considering tank can "snipe" back with rav and cs with them having more damage i see no problem here .... Monks would not have any problem since they have greater distance then pistol users and while being shot at they do aim faster than anyone else. With this kind of approach Rifle users have a better chance to kill and survive a vile encounter. If one did not have sniper rifle or burst rifles moded with scope and laser pointer,he will have to use normal aim rules in order to make a kill.
My suggestion directed towards gaining some advantages while still being crippled by slower movement and clipping range. Damage, aiming and precision we are yet to see.
This is one of the reasons i want to see test server up ... so we can test things how they work .. not just stupid setups ... BUT actual dynamics and impact of changes.
Dribble Joy
04-08-06, 22:38
Remember that for a degree of balance, a pistoler caught at range by a rifler should have some degree of chance. A rifler specs (or should spec) more skills, so therefore should have an advantage.
Remember also that in a properly balanced system, a rifler should be the equal of a pistoler at close range.
I don't want to see WOC weapons being tl 105-115 and rares dropped down to tl 100-110, as it stands I'm biting my tongue to keep from screaming at you yet again about the fact that Dirus and some of the people over the age of 12, agreed that having WOC as a requirement for PVP.
Remember that you have *some* people who don't have mummies and daddies to pay the internet bill, and buy computers and pay for neocron, some of us actually have to do it ourselves, and that some of us don't play neocron 24/7 and use drugs to go without sleep. So while there is the chance for everyone to get to WOC, it will take some of us a long time, So why should we be f**ked over by WOC? WOC should be a B.O.N.U.S. to people who take the time and have no social life or any kind of a life outside NC. It should be PA that doesn't drop, and repairs to 120/120. Weapons that repair to 120/120 and don't drop etc. etc. Currently it seems KK view WOC as the "next level" of pvp meaning "rares? WTF is the point in them?" If you push the bar to WOC the REMOVE rares because they are pointless and obsolite. Instead make it easier to get to WOC and easier to get ammo etc.
Again just incase this point got missed WOC SHOULD NOT BE A REQUIREMENT FOR PVP!!!!!
*phew* Thank you. :)
Zheo how long do you think it takes to get WoC on a spy? I capped my spy in about 3 days, fair enuf and i wasnt playing 24/3 i was on everyday after skool, the woc part i just completed in about 2 days, the ppl who have WoCdo not sit tere for days with blood-shot eyes swaying and swinging in the corner of the room lol.
Have u ever tryd to get WoC? BTW This is cuming from a WoC SPY i have no idea if it is any harder for a PE
I see some nice changes here (8 shots per reload on the SH, nice damage over time for the Ceres Assault Rifle), and the range issue seems to be clarified somewhat - rifles will generally cover more or less all the screen, other weps generally won't.
However, as Fero said, it is very very difficult to aim at range. You're targeting a tiny blob on the horizon, and if that blob moves in the slightest, you've to re-aim. Also, the reticule is sometimes as large as the target, so if the potential maximum you can miss is three times the reticule size, that's a lot of scope for missing. The speed at which people run make the visible arena coverable in a matter of seconds. Range isn't a large enough advantage if damage and / or aim speed are lower in my opinion.
If you lose your aim for a fraction of a second then re-aim within a set time, you seem to aim quickly again - the reticule doesn't start off as large.
Perhaps a nice and easy way of helping riflers aim at range will be to increase that set time, or decrease the starting size of the reticule for the fast re-aim - so it takes longer for you to lose your aim with a rifle at range. I imagine this could work well - you'd still need to get a good aim in to start off with, catch your target unaware, but once they knew they were under attack, you'd still have to aim, but it wouldn't be as bad.
I've got a quick couple of questions:
You say
Damage per shot: 671.03 (Energy, X-Ray) for the Silent Hunter.
Where does the energy come from? Are these weps you used for testing modded, or just all capped unmodded weapons?
It's generally the consensus atm that rifles aren't as powerful as pistols for the majority of fight scenarios in Neocron - and whilst I appreciate we can't draw conclusions as to whether this will be the case after re-balancing, I'd like to also ask if rifles will continue to drain as much weapon lore as they do compared to pistols, or even if this has been discussed? If so, can we please know the results and reasoning of that discussion?
And for the record, I do like DJ's opinion on removing caps for weapons. I think it would increase the scope for varied setups immensely. Right now, I don't cap any of my high TL rifles, as I prefer to have extra speed points instead of, say, an additional 4 rifle combat. It would be nice to have the option to go the other way: be slow as hell, but really pack a punch.
I can only guess at the complications this would entail in making sure lower TL weps didn't become overpowered when R-C gets very high, though. Perhaps just for rare weapons or weapons over TL100 would be an idea. Or even actually having a cap - but making it very high, so in effect the top end guns would be uncappable but lower TL guns would cap sooner or later.
For what it's worth, I don't think WoC should be a requirement for PvP. All the people I've played against that use an xbow and slasher and executioner give me a real beating with the xbow compared to the other weps, so I don't really buy the whole "Slasher is as good" argument. I'M better with an xbow than slasher. It's non drop, too - which is the real advantage. I look forward to using an AK for up close fighting (if it ever becomes viable :angel: )whilst carrying my SH in slot 1. That's all the advantage I want :)
And, no offense CC, but your route to WoC drove you insane with boredom, IIRC! :D
... thought I've chanded this allready.
The damage per shot from the silent hunter is piercing-damage!
OMG
I dont really understand why it is everyone bitches about rifles being "underpowered".
I mean sure some cannons have equal range to rifles, hell, a BoH can have more range then some types of rifles.
If you cant kill ppl with a rifler its not because of equipement ; its because you suck. Plain and simple.
I do a lot of OP wars and honestly the only good rifler ive seen out there was kurai.
The silent hunter does INCREDIBLE damage to monks, if you cant figure out a way to kill ppl with it you need to reroll your rifler : you suck.
The SH can even be used as a no-zoom closerange weapon, and its the hardest hiting gun in the game !!!!
Oh yeah, ppl move and try to dodge, if you cant hit em you have aiming problems, obviously.
But yeah i pay for my own pc, internet and NC and i still manage to use my SH PE v nicely in OP wars.
For close range pvp, if a First Love + Healing light isnt enough to kill then again ; you suck.
Hell, most times i feel my rifler is so overpowered i dont even bother DBing ppl cuz in fact landing a burst makes more damage then 25% over time.
Oh and if your rifler is slow and suck dont blame the fucking game blame your own fucking ass; in the end your the one choosing how much runspeed a char has.
A good rifler has as much chance to win as any other fighting class, exept the APU hybrid, because he has no reticule and a damn good heal.
Zheo how long do you think it takes to get WoC on a spy? I capped my spy in about 3 days, fair enuf and i wasnt playing 24/3 i was on everyday after skool, the woc part i just completed in about 2 days, the ppl who have WoCdo not sit tere for days with blood-shot eyes swaying and swinging in the corner of the room lol.
Have u ever tryd to get WoC? BTW This is cuming from a WoC SPY i have no idea if it is any harder for a PE
I don't see any woc cannons :p
I dont really understand why it is everyone bitches about rifles being "underpowered".Because they are?
Let's go down the list, shall we?
Terminator - A PE's weapon, far as I can tell. This one might be ok.
Pain Easer - Yeah... The TSU's damage is within 16%, and it's not exactly the most accurate long range weapon out there. Fine for a PE, though...
Ray of God - Gimped to hell and back. The only bonus with this POS is that because it's better the closer you are, it's not screwed over by the engine's clipping distance.
Redeemer - Too bad this one can NEVER be 100% effective. Fusion does more damage the further you are, but the engine prevents max damage due to clipping distance. Oh, and it's not AoE, which sucks.
Healing Light - Great weapon for PvM, but apparently KK fucked it up for PvP and now it doesn't register if you (or is it your target?) is moving. So much for this one.
Slient Hunter - Probably the only bright spot in the whole list. This one apparently works properly and is a reasonable goal to shoot for.
First Love - HA HA HA. Can't hit the broadside of a barn at 20 paces.
Disruptor - For the massive investment needed to cap it, you get only 8 bursts per reload and no STA drain. Unfortunately, it requires a near-singluar devotion to RC/WEP to be more effective than an HL in PvM, so goodbye runspeed without being a drug whore. At least it doesn't suffer from the HL's PvP bug...
I'm not even going to bother listing the Thunderstorm...
So there you have it. Two semi-workable High Tech weapons, two lowtechs that apparently work but are, well, lowtech, so by definition low on the damage power scale, and not a single rifle has any AoE abilities.
Bla bla bla rabliblabla YOU ARE WRONG !
What is ur rifler ? on terra ? who is it ??
The only active high tech rifle spy i see/fight on terra is spearhead. If you are not him i wont even bother listing why YOU ARE WRONG.
Why ?
Because if you dont use rifles you cant really talk about em, right ?
Honestly, a tangent stabber pulselaser + DB on a PE is enough to kill most solo, non-monks players.
Rifles are really well balanced vs HC, melee, pistols and drones.
THE ONLY NON BALANCED SHIT IN THIS FUCKING GAME IS THE FUCKING PSI.
Bla bla bla rabliblabla YOU ARE WRONG !
What is ur rifler ? on terra ? who is it ??
The only active high tech rifle spy i see/fight on terra is spearhead. If you are not him i wont even bother listing why YOU ARE WRONG.
Why ?
Because if you dont use rifles you cant really talk about em, right ?
Honestly, a tangent stabber pulselaser + DB on a PE is enough to kill most solo, non-monks players.
Rifles are really well balanced vs HC, melee, pistols and drones.
THE ONLY NON BALANCED SHIT IN THIS FUCKING GAME IS THE FUCKING PSI.
The degree to which you are wrong is disturbing. Go and look at the numbers, and the real situation. then come back and make sense.
I enjoy the real situation almost everydays, altough i usually play my HC tank at MB and my pistol spy at OP wars.
I do have a high tech rifle PE, and i have played rifle spy for long time. My spy's name is GZA, and usually when i went to cycrow (it used to belong to FF) if i didnt get a kill its because i sucked, not because my equipement was inferior to other classe's equipement.
On the other hand, it usually took at least 2 monks to get rid of me, and we all know that:
monk equipement > other classe's equipement
The real is that most players dont need their class to be the best compared to others to enjoi and kill pll. I know ppl that could play a TSU PE and have fun all day and kill tons of ppl. Other will play a droner and barely get any kills.
I wonder wich one of the 2 is the one that posts on the forum saying that their class is underpowered.
Kame, did you have a bad day or something? Keep your emotional side to yourself.
I sure hope you are not blond ... since world does not revolve around your sole opinion. Would be nice to see you become more constructive in your posts.
Would you like to hypothesize? Say, about the reason you see "almost" no Rifle users ingame. I have to conlude it might be hard for you.
The degree to which you are wrong is disturbing. Go and look at the numbers, and the real situation. then come back and make sense.
He is right to a certain degree.
Its monks that fuck over everything.
But i disagree that rifles are balanced.
Just because Spearhead knows how to use the Dissie/FL doesnt make rifles balanced. I beat him everytime. Pistol Spy. He is pretty good yet i doubt he will ever beat me. Just because rifles are shit. Runspeed nerf, FL being a fucking joke, HL wont register hits when the enemy is moving, RoG is an utter joke.
Monks fuck over everything though. I can die in 5 seconds on Kapow but then i can make 5 people run for their lives just because i log the apu hybrid. Same enemies, different character. TL 10 heal and the damn gaya glove made it. Hybrids are viable again, every PPU can poke 115 and every APU can hack belts.
Fuck this. :)
/edit
And about Kame, he is one of very few people that can actually pvp. Not that i like him but he's got a point there...
Because if you dont use rifles you cant really talk about em, right ?Excuse me? I've been using rifles since Beta 2 or Beta 3. My main characters on Pluto and now Terra are rifle spies. My main character from UK launch day is a tradeskill/rifle spy. I have a true Combat Rifle Spy from Pluto as well.
I most definitely know what I'm talking about.
If this balance discussion is going to ignore the facts of the engine's range and clipping distance, then what's the point to further discussion? Rifles must be balanced given the limits of the engine, or there's no point to wasting time on them. Might as well delete them from the game and just extend pistol range to 600m to fill the gap.
Dribble Joy
07-08-06, 02:16
If the clipping range can't be altered, then all they need do is to nerf pistol/cannon/apu range. It's not like hitting something at the clip edge that's moving is easy anyway, do it at zone length distance would be insane.
I have the same views, its not broken and it doesnt need a fix.
And if you wanna talk about engine's limitation, well, youre dreaming if you think they can give rifles better range.
What need a fix tho is :
-Pistol having too big clips, maybe too much range.
-Long range PSI spells (beams) making locational damage.
-Cliping on very fast moving objects (this is what makes the beam weapons hit not register, i think.)
If the clipping range can't be altered, then all they need do is to nerf pistol/cannon/apu range.There are problems with doing this, though.
Rifle range advantage (distance to target, ease of hiding) is mitigated by runspeed within the 600m envelope, so just "nerfing" everyone else's range isn't enough - they can just run up to be in-range within the 600m envelope with relative ease.
Just chopping every other weapon's range doesn't solve the basic problem that rifles don't "fit" given NC's engine limitations. Their power needs to be boosted to compensate for the complete lack of range they have due to the engine and their increased targetting requirements over pistols. Redeemer also needs to be fixed so it can max damage within engine range limits.
Spies should be able to get something for their efforts. Rifles are the hardest to cap weapons in-game and require sizable trainpoint investments. I want to see some sort of reward for that investment, especially over pistols. I've been using pistols on some of my barter Spies and I can see why people choose pistols over rifles - same damage output, slightly less range, but drastically lower trainpoint requirements. What was the point to rifles again?
The point of rifles is that they can provide great support damage without having to be on the front line, dancing around tanks and monks. Honestly, only the amazing spys do that.
But they allow you to choose from hard hitting energy damage (healing light, dizzy) to insane pierce damage (silent hunter).
The way you can ******** ANY type of char with a SH is incredible.
Bla bla bla rabliblabla YOU ARE WRONG !
Why ?
Because if you dont use rifles you cant really talk about em, right ?
Great arguement! You have me convienced... NOT! Your whole point is based on assumption, and assumptions are the mother of all fuckups!
TIP: Go away and think about what your going to say instead of typing some random rubbish that deserves to be in the bin!!
And if you wanna talk about engine's limitation, well, youre dreaming if you think they can give rifles better range.
they could just turn off the limitation that they put there to stop people with better computers having an advantage :\
Dribble Joy
07-08-06, 14:20
Rifles are the hardest to cap weapons in-game and require sizable trainpoint investments. I want to see some sort of reward for that investment, especially over pistols. I've been using pistols on some of my barter Spies and I can see why people choose pistols over rifles - same damage output, slightly less range, but drastically lower trainpoint requirements. What was the point to rifles again?
As I explained to someone recently, all weapon systems should be of equal value at the 'base' level that PvP is played at. Ie. close range. Having any of the sub-classes at an advantage in this area will not be conductive to balance.
To go beyond this range and extend your 'area of influence' you are then allowed to spec additional skill points. This does not necessarily mean that someone with 600m range should be as dangerous at that range as at point blank, it should afford you an advatage when encountering people at range, but they should be able to close (though they would be damaged by this point and the benefits of your skilling would have payed off).
Looking at the different sub-classes, melee has 'no' range, and thus specs nothing. Pistols have a small range and spec a small amount, heavy and apus have a medium range and thus have to spec a significant amount (or should do, if the skills are reworked properly), rifles then have the potential for a massive range, and thus have to spec points almost exclusively in wep.
Though I see where they're coming from, I think rifler/long range users need to look at their weapon systems in a slightly different way.
Yes pistols and HC have ranges that are too long, especially pistols, I'm a pistoler and I want my range down to 50m (though I'll see if 150m is shrt enough when the TS comes along), shooting people/mobs near the clip distance is ludicrous. But having a 2km range should not mean that noone should be able to deal with you or get near you. Yes there are bugs with dmg registering and other things that make rifles 'useless', but that's a different issue from the balancing itself.
By spending those points, you are given the additional benefit of being able to reach things further away, on top of the standard close range abilities.
Though I have no idea if you know what I mean.
What I would like, is for WEP to not affect dmg in any way (for other reasons too, to do with balancing offence/defence) so that a rifler - if they so choose, for whatever reason - to have HC/APU or even PC level range, by speccing less so they can benefit in other areas.
But having a 2km range should not mean that noone should be able to deal with you or get near you. 2km? Have you read ANYTHING I've posted? The engine doesn't support that clipping distance. That's my whole point! If it did, I wouldn't have an issue with rifles as they are now.Yes there are bugs with dmg registering and other things that make rifles 'useless', but that's a different issue from the balancing itself.Bullshit. If the weapons are broken, there's nothing to balance. Prove to me the weapons work properly before balancing begins. Balancing a bunch of dysfunctional weapons is pointless.
You seem to live on some ideal plane where weapons can be balanced without paying attention to the realities of the engine KK is using. If weapons are going to be changed, then I want them altered to fit the game I'm playing, not some pie-in-the-sky game that doesn't exist.
@ Okran.
Whats funny is all these guys claiming that the game's engine is restraining them from being the "oh-so-uber-rifler" they think they are. Yet, when i play the game, i see none of you guys getting kills with a rifler. This is why i think your opinions are irrelevant.
The beam weapons work correctly, its only a matter of ping if yours doesnt register correctly. Your gonna have to aim the weapon more carefully. Of course if you shoot a fully buffed tank(ppu supported) with a healing light you aint gonna do shit to him, but theres nothing more a pistol/HC could do in that situation.
Then again that bring us face to face with the facts :
-PSI is unbalancing the pvp.
I think ppl like Okran wants to get a rifle xbow, so they can own all other classes, and only because rifles have been overlooked by KK.
I say bullshit, the skilled players still get as much kills on riflers as any other classes. Shit i even saw a TSU PE kill an APU hybrid yesterday !
Prehaps one of the reasons why you personally have not witnesed this is because it is difficult to get kills with a Rifle. I have played a Rifle spy for over 3 years and here are the reasons why it is difficult:
1. Range is not high enough, obviously the weather effects this also (reducing it even further).
2. 50% of other character classes (monks and tanks) have extreemly high run speed making it difficult to aim and hit them (i.e they appear to teleport).
3. The other 50% of character classes use stealth, and you cannot shoot what you cannot see.
4. Sniper Rifles in particular have a very low shot frequency, meaning you cannot get many shots in before the enemy is on top of you.
All of this combined together makes it difficult ok. Now tell me I am wrong and all of the above isn't true ;)
Scoped range is low, ill agree with that. In fact its the same as regular range, but with a zoom. You just have to learn to deal with it.
Out of your 50% of the char with high runspeed, 25% of them (hc tanks) have the lowest runspeed in-game. That brings ur 50% to 37.5%. That means roughly 1/3 of the chars have uber runspeed, read : melee tanks and monks. Besides, everyone has to deal with the high runspeed, its not specific to rifles.
50 percent of the chars can use stealth, including riflers ... so yeah they stealth, but you can stealth, too.
Snipers have low frequency, but if you use the equipement like a dumbass its not the game mechanic's fault.
EDIT/ Oh and ive been trying my rifle PE today, and while dodging a xbow PE i still managed to kill a xbow spy, no sniping involved, just closerange fighting. And let me remind you that xbow is the most overpowered weapon in game. Oh yeah and i used a Healing light that the damage doesnt register.
The lesson in that is that of course other class might have more advantage then the rifler, but that doesnt mean its unplayable. The problem isnt with rifles, its somewhere else.
Out of your 50% of the char with high runspeed, 25% of them (hc tanks) have the lowest runspeed in-game.
That I don't understand, because every tank I have seen have been running like the wind. Thats just from my experience tho, anyone else care to have any input on this?
Besides, everyone has to deal with the high runspeed, its not specific to rifles.
Ah but it does effect Rifles the most. A Rifle spy relies on killing the target at range - due to a lower overall defense (none is poison in most cases) and gimped runspeed they are not good in close PvP. Ok, so a fast moving target that is difficult to get a lock on, plus the fact that because they are running so fast they gain on you very quickly and you loose your range advantage.
Snipers have low frequency, but if you use the equipement like a dumbass its not the game mechanic's fault.
What do you mean by that?
EDIT/ Oh and ive been trying my rifle PE today, and while dodging a xbow PE i still managed to kill a xbow spy, no sniping involved, just closerange fighting. And let me remind you that xbow is the most overpowered weapon in game. Oh yeah and i used a Healing light that the damage doesnt register.
. whether or not you managed to kill some noobie xbow spy is pretty irrelevant to balancing :\
there's very few guns that couldn't be used to kill the noobs that are left in this game
Monks and spys are the 2 fastest, hardest to hit classes.
BTW runspeed/clipping affect melee tanks (negatively) and droners (positively, think revenge) the most. And no one can really complain about having troubles aiming fast moving targets, ITS THE GAME FFS !!!! This is a FPS-MMO !!!! OF COURSE PPL WILL WANT TO DODGE UR PLASMA POO POO.
And about the equipement, i guess you have to find for yourself.
@ Giga im just saying, ppl talk way too much crap about stuff that isnt really broke with the game. The healing light does work. Im not trying to make myself look like i pwn. I dont give a shit. I die too.
But as far as balance between rifles and NC, well my opinion is its fine, and i explained why.
I have a 114 DEX PE using 1 dex drug and belive me, with the TL10 heal, the stealth and the DB, using weapons like SH or FL is almost like cheating.
The healing light does work.
i disagree, in a lot of circumstances you can clearly see it hitting the target for the full burst (if you use a fire modded version it's clearer), yet it does 5 dmg. You could say that this is just because the other player is healing, but i really don't believe that a player cancel out that much dmg before the dmg number appears. This is not to say that it always bugs this way but a quite a few experience pvpers have agreed with me when i brought up the issue and hence why you will see so few people using it. This can also be experienced on the recieving end of the shots as your health bounces back to what it was before you got shot.
This issue isnt specific to rifles; it can be experienced with all beam/ray weapons that is not AOE(ravager, healing light, BoH...). We can say it affects all non-locational or non-aoe weapons.
Since it affects all weapons its a problem coming from the game engine, and from my opinion its probably just caused by net lag.
Your client says youve hit, the other person's client might even tell him it hits, but in the end the server says it didnt hit. Clearly, upgrading rifle's damage wont solve the problem. What needs to be done is beyond what me and the average neocron player can think of. Balancing isnt the issue here, its the game itself.
This issue isnt specific to rifles; it can be experienced with all beam/ray weapons that is not AOE(ravager, healing light, BoH...). We can say it affects all non-locational or non-aoe weapons.
Since it affects all weapons its a problem coming from the game engine, and from my opinion its probably just caused by net lag.
Your client says youve hit, the other person's client might even tell him it hits, but in the end the server says it didnt hit. Clearly, upgrading rifle's damage wont solve the problem. What needs to be done is beyond what me and the average neocron player can think of. Balancing isnt the issue here, its the game itself. quite a few of the balancing problems are currently caused by or were originally the results of bugs, and i think KK are adressing these bugs during this project so that they can alter the property of items without some of the unwanted side effects we have seen in previous patches.
And no one can really complain about having troubles aiming fast moving targets, ITS THE GAME FFS !!!!
Let me put it in simple easy to digest terms:
Greater the runspeed = less time you have to kill at 'range'
Like I already said once the enemy have you in their range it's dying time o_O
But as far as balance between rifles and NC, well my opinion is its fine, and i explained why.
No you haven't, appart from short of saying other Rifle users can't use Rifles properly and you are the only one who can.
I have a 114 DEX PE using 1 dex drug and belive me, with the TL10 heal, the stealth and the DB, using weapons like SH or FL is almost like cheating.
I am very suprised you hit anything with using a FL! I have found it only mainly hits non-moving targets at point blank range. All other times it hits occasionally. Why bother anyway, you may as well use the Judge and have more runspeed and hit more, oh and more skill points for something else.
Okran
The way you see a sniper seems boring. If i understand you good all you want to be able to is to kill ppl while sniping them
Well, good luck.
In neocron you hardly ever kill ppl only by "sniping" them. It happens, but not v often.
You need to hit first, then go in and fight close combat style. This is where weapons like FL do good. In fact the FL is like a CS exept you run faster with it then a HC tank runs with a CS.
Anyways if your spy/PE dies everytime you go in close combat you have to ask yourself questions. Maybe you lack in the aiming departement, i dont know. What i do know is that a rifle char can be as competitive as any other class, if played well.
And yes i know how to use my equipement, and i have a feeling you dont. But that doesnt have anything to do with balancing. To be honest, the fact you have problems aiming have nothing to do with balancing as well.
WTF are you trying to get at ? A gun with no reticule ?
Havent you read even monks are getting reticules !!! And my original point was that a lot of ppl complain against rifles, yet i see no one use them to their full potential. I dunno whens the last time i been killed by a rifler, honestly, mustve been long ago, and mustve been kurai.
The only thing you could add to rifler chars is the ability to go into prone position. A prone position that when you lay in it, you cant be seen on local, and you can crawl. Thats a good balancing idea for riflers.
Okran
The way you see a sniper seems boring. If i understand you good all you want to be able to is to kill ppl while sniping them
Well, good luck.
In neocron you hardly ever kill ppl only by "sniping" them. It happens, but not v often.
You need to hit first, then go in and fight close combat style. This is where weapons like FL do good. In fact the FL is like a CS exept you run faster with it then a HC tank runs with a CS.
Anyways if your spy/PE dies everytime you go in close combat you have to ask yourself questions. Maybe you lack in the aiming departement, i dont know. What i do know is that a rifle char can be as competitive as any other class, if played well.
And yes i know how to use my equipement, and i have a feeling you dont. But that doesnt have anything to do with balancing. To be honest, the fact you have problems aiming have nothing to do with balancing as well.
WTF are you trying to get at ? A gun with no reticule ?
Havent you read even monks are getting reticules !!! And my original point was that a lot of ppl complain against rifles, yet i see no one use them to their full potential. I dunno whens the last time i been killed by a rifler, honestly, mustve been long ago, and mustve been kurai.
The only thing you could add to rifler chars is the ability to go into prone position. A prone position that when you lay in it, you cant be seen on local, and you can crawl. Thats a good balancing idea for riflers. the reason why there are no good riflers around is because all the decent players realised a long time ago that they are far better off using pistols or even HC. Saying that you actually managed to kill some people once upon a time with a rifle means very little. Maybe in a world where outposts don't have walls, they would do OK, but in most cases range won't make up for bad dmg
Kame...
So it's me and everyone else's fault is it? So there's only you that appears to be able to use Rifles somewhat near to their full potential? I'm sorry but I have heard enough, and it's quite laughable that you think like that.
I'm only asking that the whole 'range' thing is re-worked, or the top capped runspeed to be reduced. I think the latter would be more feasible though and would remove some 'bugs' that are also associated with high runspeed. Oh and there also the fact that most of the Rifles are bugged in some way, that needs fixing also.
I'm only asking that the whole 'range' thing is re-worked, or the top capped runspeed to be reduced. I think the latter would be more feasible though and would remove some 'bugs' that are also associated with high runspeed. Oh and there also the fact that most of the Rifles are bugged in some way, that needs fixing also. no speed nerf plz :(
i'm sure it wouldn't take a long time to fix the 'bugs' that come with high speed, for example they could get rid of some of the decimal places for dmg and healing, they could combine 1 or 2 of the hitboxes (i'm not sure how much bandwidth this takes up, but in some games in a very large amount).
tbh you just have to play the game and see what everyones using, then you might get the idea that these weapons may have an advantage over the more uncommon types.
as to the netcode being an advantage for droners and a disadvantage for melees, that just isn't true. you can explode a revenge with noone being hit, tho you saw it hovering right inside their torso, whereas on the other hand you can be killed by a melee tank that u either don't see at all or far away at the horizon :(
same is true with about every weapon, like being hit by someone you're sneaking up on in his back and stuff like that. i think before we can really disuss if a weapon needs to be made stronger or weaker the netcode would have to be fixed, so that one can really see what a weapon is capable of, and not only that it is just bugged.
Anyone think it could be lag? Or rather your connection to the server that causes at least "some" of the problems you face? It is possible, saying that, I got hit by a apu who was round and corner, and behind a closed door, that was bloody annoying, i just go with it
I have experienced a case where me and a m8 GR'ed upto Chester Lab. When the S.I. had worn off we ran out of the GR and for a laugh he decides to shot me for fun a couple of times. When I turned around to shoot him back, I can see through the fence he's still inside the GR (but he was obviously running about). So I got right up next to him and shot him, and on his screen he took no damage. Yet he could shoot me still, and I could not shoot him. :eek:
I have experienced a case where me and a m8 GR'ed upto Chester Lab. When the S.I. had worn off we ran out of the GR and for a laugh he decides to shot me for fun a couple of times. When I turned around to shoot him back, I can see through the fence he's still inside the GR (but he was obviously running about). So I got right up next to him and shot him, and on his screen he took no damage. Yet he could shoot me still, and I could not shoot him. :eek:
That happens alot of NF, dunno about most decks but my clan go to NF2 DECK 3 Alot and it always happens where randomly a player will just stand there on my screen and take no dmg wen hes shot, yet hes behind me nailing the shit into me with a slasher or whatever
ya neofrag can really suck, i was killed by an apu and after i rigtclicked 3 more hl hit me :rolleyes:
same thing happened to me against a devourer
in nf 1 deck 1 people start to fly through the arena, or just don't move at all :(
It's going off topic this, but I forgot about the flying stuff. I've seen that many times outside of NF. You see another runner miles in the air and you're unable to hit them, but yet again they can still hit you (coz they aint really in the air, they're behind you). It's like the server looses one of the connections 'you -> them', but is still fine with 'them -> you'.
General Summary:
The majority of weapon types for rifle classes are unpractical for reasons other than balancing.
Additional range is not helpful, we can't see that far, so don't weigh more in that direction for balancing.
maybe spys just shouldnt show on local.
maybe spys just shouldnt show on local.
o0o0o0o now that wud be sexeh :angel:
maybe spys just shouldnt show on local.
I think that should be something that affects Droners regardless of class, but only via Power Armour or something.
General Summary:
The majority of weapon types for rifle classes are unpractical for reasons other than balancing.
Additional range is not helpful, we can't see that far, so don't weigh more in that direction for balancing.
Yes I would agree they mostly are unpractical, and not just rifles for that metter.
Therefore I think the weapons (in general) need fixing before balancing can be applied. Otherwise this whole thing is pointless.
The guns in general seems to be to a disadvantage compared to all monk weapons and equipement.
Adding anything to the guns wont do anything to game pvp balance. In fact, i think you need to take off from PSI, HC and pistols, as far as range goes.
Damage-wise, i belive the only weapon class out of context in-game is the PSI. They can heal/damage too fast compared to others and yet they are the most resistan class.
A hybrid monk can take way more damage then a tank,spy or even PE. I dont even wanna talk about the ppu buffed APU. When i play APU with my good PPU, i feel like im fucking cheating. I can take more damage on a ppu-buffed APU then on a PE or a fucking tank, and i still can kill other classes in 3-4 hits.
Then you have the guns that do not good damage to monks (BoH, RolH, RoG, redeemer...) so no one uses them. I think they could still do good damage on classes other then monks. But the monks in general have so good energy resists that these guns will only tickle them if you dont land more then 75% of ur shots.
If resist piercing is introduced under Strength, this would open them up to force/piercing damage damage types.
derretimos
26-08-06, 18:34
im just jumping in on the coversation, but i think my rifle pe could kill a ppu, possibly with an apu if i get a little distance. i've done it before out at hawkins. dissy + sh ftw
Thats What I Meant By "knowing How To Use Ur Equipement"
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