View Full Version : Weapon Discussion: Heavy-Combat Category
Weapon discussion: Heavy-Combat Category
The concept for the heavy combat category has been implemented now. In the second part of this post you will find several examples that demonstrate the implementation. As usual we are starting with the general definitions for all weapon classes.
Damage (per time unit):
- APU Weapons 100 %
- Cannons 90 %
- Rifles 80 %
- Pistols 75 %
- Melee Weapons 65 %
Bonus-System:
- HighTech Weapons + 5 % (additive)
- Rare Weapons + 7.5 % (exclusive)
- Epic Weapons + 9.5 % (exclusive)
- WoC Weapons + 10 % (exclusive)
Furthermore, additional weapon properties could change for rare, epic or WoC weapons: clip size, firing frequency, range etc.
Aim speed (1.50 – 4.50 Seconds, Min | Max):
- Melee Weapons deactivated
- PPU Weapons deactivated
- APU Weapons 0.75 1.50
- Pistols 0.75 2.25
- Rifles 1.00 3.00
- Cannons 2.00 4.50
Note: Smaller is better.
Aim precision (Reticule, Min | Max):
- APU Weapons 1.50 3.00
- Rifles 1.50 3.50
- Pistols 1.50 4.00
- Cannons 1.50 5.00
Note: Smaller is better.
Firing frequency (45 – 120 shots/minute, Min | Max):
- Rifles 45 120
- Pistols 30 120
- Melee Weapons 40 60
- APU Weapons 30 60
- Cannons 15 45
Range (50 – 600 Meters, Min | Max):
- Cannons 300 600
- Rifles 200 600
- APU Weapons 100 300
- Pistols 50 150
- Melee Weapons Striking distance (+ tolerance factor)
Clip Size
As already mentioned in the pistol-combat thread, we will not give any guidelines here, as they would barely apply to any weapon. This value is defined individually for each weapon.
Cannon Examples:
Note (smaller is better):
Aim speed (Cannons): 4.50 seconds
Aim precision (Cannons): 5.00 times reticule size
Example #1: Rocket Launcher
Category: LowTech Cannons
TechLevel: 48
Modus: Single Shot
Aim speed: 4.06 Seconds (90 %)
Aim Precision: 4.35 Reticule size (87 %)
Clip: 4 Shots
Real Firing Frequency: 20.7 / Minute
Range: 720 Meters (Correction 160 %)
Ammo: Rockets (Force, Fire), 8 Rockets, 1280 Gramm
Damage per shot: 234.9 (Force, Fire)
Damage per minute: ca. 4860
Ammo variations: High-Explosive Rockets (+ Force, -Fire)
Napalm Rockets (- Force, + Fire)
'HumanEx' Rockets (- Force, + Piercing, - Fire)
Rare-Variation: Moon Striker
TechLevel: 110
Modus: Single Shot
Aim speed: 2.85 (63 %)
Aim Precision: 2.19 (51 %)
Real Firing Frequency: 22.2 / Minute
Range: 952 Meters
Damage per shot: 851.94 (Force, Fire)
Damage per minute: ca. 18932
Example #2: ’Cleansing’ Flame Thrower
Category: LowTech Cannons
TechLevel: 70
Modus: Single Shot
Aim speed: 3.63 Seconds (81 %)
Aim Precision: 4.35 Reticule size (74 %)
Clip: 30 Shots
Real Firing Frequency: 29 / Minute
Range: 75 Meters (Correction 15 %)
Ammo: Flamer Gas (Fire, DoT-Fire), 30 Units, 960 Gramm
Damage per shot: 294.48 (Fire, DoT-Fire)
Damage per minute: ca. 8549
Note: This is a good example to mention the settings for DoT damage types. The damage points are split 60/40 between instant and DoT damage.
Ammo variations: Flamer Kerosene Gas (+ Fire, + DoT-Fire)
Flamer Napalm Gas (- Fire, + DoT-Fire)
Flamer War Gas (- Fire, + Poison, no DoT-Fire, + DoT-Poison)
Rare-Variation: Devourer
TechLevel: 98
Modus: Single Shot
Aim speed: 3.09 (69 %)
Aim Precision: 2.92 (58 %)
Real Firing Frequency: 32.1 / Minute
Range: 85 Meters
Damage per shot: 487.41 (Fire, DoT-Fire)
Damage per minute: ca. 15666
Example #3: Fusion Cannon
Category: HighTech Cannons
TechLevel: 75
Modus: Single Shot
Aim speed: 3.53 Seconds (78 %)
Aim Precision: 3.58 Reticule size (72 %)
Clip: 20 Shots
Real Firing Frequency: 37.5 / Minute
Range: 513 Meters
Ammo: Fusion Cannon Cell (Force, Energy), 40 Units, 1180 Gramm
Damage per shot: 266.45 (Force, Energy)
Damage per minute: ca. 9991
Ammo variations: Fusion Cannon Advanced Cell (+ Force, + Energy)
Fusion Cannon Nitrogen Cell (- Force, + Fire, - Energy)
Fusion Cannon Alpha Cell (- Force, - Energy, + X-Ray)
Rare-Variation: Malediction
TechLevel: 107
Modus: Single Shot
Aim speed: 2.91 (65 %)
Aim Precision: 2.66 (53 %)
Real Firing Frequency: 42.9 / Minute
Range: 588 Meters
Damage per shot: 441.69 (Force, Energy)
Damage per minute: ca. 18929
Example #4: Enhanced Freezer Cannon
Category: HighTech Cannons
TechLevel: 65
Modus: Single Shot
Aim speed: 4.14 Seconds (92 %)
Aim Precision: 4.47 Reticule size (89 %)
Clip: 24 Shots
Real Firing Frequency: 37.9 / Minute
Range: 489 Meters
Ammo: Freezer Cannon Ammo (Energy, DoT-Stun), 40 Units,
780 Gramm
Damage per shot: 211.42 (Energy, DoT-Stun)
Damage per minute: ca. 8011
Ammo variations: Freezer Cannon ’Max Duration’ Ammo (- Energy, + DoT-Stun)
Freezer Cannon ’Max Damage’ Ammo (+ Energy, - DoT-Stun)
Freezer Cannon Radiation Ammo (- Energy, + X-Ray)
Example #5: Tangent Plasma Cannon
Category: HighTech Cannons
TechLevel: 84
Modus: Burst (4)
Aim speed: 3.36 Seconds (75 %)
Aim Precision: 3.32 Reticule size (66 %)
Clip: 32 Shots
Real Firing Frequency: 145.5 / Minute
Range: 534 Meters
Ammo: Plasma Cannon Packet (Energy), 60 Units, 1020 Gramm
Damage per shot: 82.12 (Energy)
Damage per minute: ca. 11944
Ammo variations: Plasma Cannon Nova Packet (+ Force)
Plasma Cannon Heat Compressed Packet (+ Fire)
Plasma Cannon Radioactive Packet (+ X-Ray)
Rare-Variation: Cursed Soul
TechLevel: 105
Modus: Burst (4)
Aim speed: 2.95 (65 %)
Aim Precision: 2.71 (54 %)
Clip: 40 Shots
Real Firing Frequency: 150 / Minute
Range: 583 Meters
Damage per shot: 122.34 (Energy)
Damage per minute: ca. 18351
Dribble Joy
01-09-06, 16:42
Still unsure about the different weapon systems having different aiming speeds.
It doesn't seem fair given this is a skill based game and all players should be at an equal standing.
I've noticed the dmg/tl for cannons and rifles is very close.
Is this intended? Because if it is then either the skill system for pistols/rifles and/or heavy will have to change and/or the armour/defence system will have to change radically.
Obviously we can implement things and tweak slowly untill it's right.
The difference is about 10 % - for now this is exactly what we want. We will see the real differences in the near future and we will decide if this is good or not.
We are trying to make the weapon-categories more authentic - if you think about a mind-based weapon (psi) and a cannon about 12 KG of weight then you have to agree that there must be a difference in aiming speed. I don't think that this issue is a hard disadvantage.
And the weighting of skill-influences is another topic - we don't want to reduce the importance of our skill-system.
Dribble Joy
01-09-06, 18:48
I understand where you're coming from and I agree with it.
However personally I think any simulation (though important) should be secondary to creating an equal playing field for players, regardless of their class/sub-class choice.
It depends on how noticable this difference is ingame though.
Good to hear there will be something about skills in the future, as I.... kinda have a lot to say on that topic :p.
Are you taking into account the gimp'd reload time and run speed of heavy combat? I sure hope so! I expect you don't think that run speed makes a difference but it sure does I can tell you i'd rather fight a slow moving target than a very fast moving target.
Dribble Joy
02-09-06, 00:05
Are you taking into account the gimp'd reload time and run speed of heavy combat?
Don't HC weapons take 2.5s like all others now?
As for the second point, I believe I have allready stated my stance on that, though I will say that to the observer, a tank with a weapon out is NOT slow at all.
ouch, play hc dribble and just look at your healthbar with drawn weapon and without in pvp.
Dribble Joy
02-09-06, 01:37
Erm... O_o since when did pulling your gun out mean loosing hp?
And I have played HC, but more importantly, the apparent difference between the speed of a melee tank and HC tank in combat is minimal - if non-existant - when facing them.
:edit
Am I actually against rifles and/or heavy weapons loosing their runspeed malus?
No, not really, as I've said there's no real percievable difference anyway, and all it does is annoy the users.
That said, it is still just a placebo in the end so the real question is whether you want to maintain some simulation or not.
it is no placebo. you hit riflers and especially hc much easier. whether you believe it or not. and that goes for all ppl including your perfect pvpers. btw i'm not against a malus, but if you want to maintain a simulation then why does a gun that is 10 time as big as another deal roughly the same damage?
Dev is not a rare-variation, it is a FDB item.
Since it is no longer a rare, it should not be classified as one and thus should not get the bonus of being one.
We are trying to make the weapon-categories more authentic - if you think about a mind-based weapon (psi) and a cannon about 12 KG of weight then you have to agree that there must be a difference in aiming speed.
I totally agree, talking about authenticity. I've seen a report on CNN last week about psi weapons, they aim insanely fast!
sorry, but I can't see where you're coming from. one could also argue that you'd have to concentrate ALOT on your target before your magic-psi-shit will happen, while you just aim a cannon in the right direction and pull the trigger.
besides, GenTanks were made to handle 12 kg cannons, they dont give a shit about the weight.
aiming should be equal for everyone.
just my 2 cents.
my 2 cent
I think aiming lighter weapons should be lot quicker then heavier weapons
Just think for a psi monk to use holy lighting its just a tap when you see the target for a tank to use a cs you need to get it nearly bang on the shot for every shot to hit.
Dribble Joy
02-09-06, 04:44
Just think for a psi monk to use holy lighting its just a tap when you see the target for a tank to use a cs you need to get it nearly bang on the shot for every shot to hit.
Remember that apus are getting a recticle now, so the 'point and click' type aiming would result in either failed casts or little dmg.
Rare-Variation: Silent Hunter
TechLevel: 111
Mode: Singleshot
Aim speed: 1.67 (56 %)
Aim precision: 1.83 (52 %)
Clip: 8 Shots
Real Firing Frequency: 26.67 / Minute
Range: 1342 Meter (Correction: 225 %)
Damage per shot: 671.03 (Piercing)
Damage per minute: ca. 17894
...
Rare-Variation: Moon Striker
TechLevel: 110
Modus: Single Shot
Aim speed: 2.85 (63 %)
Aim Precision: 2.19 (51 %)
Real Firing Frequency: 22.2 / Minute
Range: 952 Meters
Damage per shot: 851.94 (Force, Fire)
Damage per minute: ca. 18932
Both of these weapons are lowtech rare weapons, meaning they have equal bonuses. teh only two differences are TL (by a factor of 1) and HC vs Rifle.
Here goes the hypothetical number crunching for comparison.
Moonie, tl 110, hypothetical damage before calculations, 110.
110 x .9 x 1.075
SH, 111.
111 x .8 x 1.075
Moonie:106.425
SH:95.46
This shows that if the balancing were correctly implemented, the Moonies damage per unit of time divided by 106.425 would equal the SH's damage per unit time divided by 95.46.
Moonie: 18932/106.425=177.891
SH: 17894/95.46=187.46
Verdict: The balancing is fucked (or my mathematics suck, or 1 tl really does make that big of a difference...). If you're going to spend that much time being picky on the general backbone balancing of the weapon classes, at least follow through with them.
I'm not about to waste my time looking into other weapons, but this didn't look right to me. Hopefully its an isolated case and either the moonies damage can be brought up to par or the SH can be brought down to match its guidelines... Hopefully.
Remember that apus are getting a recticle now, so the 'point and click' type aiming would result in either failed casts or little dmg.
my bad forgot all about that :(
Verdict: The balancing is fucked (or my mathematics suck, or 1 tl really does make that big of a difference...). If you're going to spend that much time being picky on the general backbone balancing of the weapon classes, at least follow through with them.
erm silent hunter is a hightech rifle (tho i'd like to see it on the lotech side of life)
Please don't say "Balancing is fucked" if you don't have exact figures ...
If I check different weapons I'll do it like this:
Rifle-Example: Silent Hunter (TL 111, HighTech, Rare, 671.0324, 17894)
Cannon-Example: Malediction (TL 107, HighTech, Rare, 441.6869, 18929)
Theoretical Damage-Output for Malediction (TL 111):
18929 / 107 * 111 = 19637
If I will have the difference of this two examples I set the higher one to 100 % to get the difference:
19637 equals to 100 %
17894 equals to 91.12 % (17894 / 19637 * 100)
There is a difference about 10 % - this looks fine to me :D We have allready rounded figures here - so don't be to "over-precise".
And about this CNN-Thing: Yes, I've seen it too. :rolleyes:
And about this CNN-Thing: Yes, I've seen it too. :rolleyes:
you stopped reading right there huh? I mean, if someone thinks its funny talking about authenticity and pulling down lightning from the sky to hurt your opponents at the same time, his arguements can't be worth shit.
edit: totally forgot: :rolleyes:
No, I don't stop reading - Your opinion is aiming should be equal to all classes. I've read it, I've understand it and (for now) I disagree.
We think these differences are good for our gameplay. We've started with aiming for apu-monks to reduce their frequency - we've thought that this is a good step in the right direction. The duration of aiming for heavy combat was longer in the past and we've decided that this part was allready good. It will be balanced but we don't want to get a new game.
Realism and Ingame-Realism:
How do you come to a good weapon-handling? You look at the real version as a first steep. If you don't have these originals you try another way. We've thought that mind-based actions are much faster than handling a heavy device on your shoulder. You look at it and think about it or you turn your whole body and make many little movements\coordinations to stay on target. Even if weight is not a problem - there will be a difference.
We've thought that mind-based actions are much faster
its perfectly fine to think this way, and its perfectly fine if you want your game to be this way, even if I dont like it.
but nonetheless you can't say its 'authentic' or 'logical' - its just the way you see/want it.
you could also say that one who wants to use psi shit has to stand still, close his eyes, concentrate hard on his target for quite a time until something happens. after this he is so exhausted that he can't move for another 5 minutes. is that authentical? logical? no, its just another view.
so it would be perfectly fine if psi had the same aim time as other weapons, like HC. you dont want that - fine. but dont say its because of realism.
is it 'authentical' that I have to wait for 2 seconds until I can pull the trigger AFTER I aimed my target? no. its just the way this game works, and its the way you guys want it.
OK - so it's our view of things. I've only tried to explain our decisions - perhaps I've created more missunderstandings than understandings. Sorry for that.
If you disagree or have a point to make then make it rationally and without resorting to histrionics, because, when you go on tilt, you lose all your chips...
N
Please don't say "Balancing is fucked" if you don't have exact figures ...
If I check different weapons I'll do it like this:
Rifle-Example: Silent Hunter (TL 111, HighTech, Rare, 671.0324, 17894)
Cannon-Example: Malediction (TL 107, HighTech, Rare, 441.6869, 18929)
Theoretical Damage-Output for Malediction (TL 111):
18929 / 107 * 111 = 19637
If I will have the difference of this two examples I set the higher one to 100 % to get the difference:
19637 equals to 100 %
17894 equals to 91.12 % (17894 / 19637 * 100)
There is a difference about 10 % - this looks fine to me :D We have allready rounded figures here - so don't be to "over-precise".
And about this CNN-Thing: Yes, I've seen it too. :rolleyes:
As i said, my mathematics could be off, and as yuuki pointed out, the SH is a hightech Rifle, not a lowtech as i was figureing, which would make the way it is balanced out correct as of now.
And another thing i said that was thrown to the wind is that DEVOURER IS NO LONGER RARE. Don't give it the rare status and bonus. It is a faction database item.
Remember that apus are getting a recticle now, so the 'point and click' type aiming would result in either failed casts or little dmg.
That makes me laugh (sorry)
Oh and you guys have been talking about aim/recticle. It is funny we use the same value to evaluate each classes, when you know all weapons are meant to have different aim/recticle/damages for about every skills use.
I'm have certainly not tested this like some players might have but from my time in game pvping and watching others pvp i have noticed that run speed beyoind a certain point has less effect on the individuals screen and more effect on the others players screens.
For example a melee player runs fast on his screen but not that much (if at all) faster that a PE or hc tank on their screen. Its on the enemies screen where the speed difference is most noticable. If you get where i'm coming from. Who knows, i certainly dont but that is my observation.
I leave this to ppl like jini and co who actually know what they are talking about because they have tested it. (u ppl know who u are)
I really dont have the time and paticents (spelling) to test this.
Please don't say "Balancing is fucked" if you don't have exact figures ...
If I check different weapons I'll do it like this:
Rifle-Example: Silent Hunter (TL 111, HighTech, Rare, 671.0324, 17894)
Cannon-Example: Malediction (TL 107, HighTech, Rare, 441.6869, 18929)
Theoretical Damage-Output for Malediction (TL 111):
18929 / 107 * 111 = 19637
If I will have the difference of this two examples I set the higher one to 100 % to get the difference:
19637 equals to 100 %
17894 equals to 91.12 % (17894 / 19637 * 100)
There is a difference about 10 % - this looks fine to me :D We have allready rounded figures here - so don't be to "over-precise".
just me thinking outloud ive been told not to befor but im going to anyway
for a game all the numbers for weapon damage and aiming are abit over the top i think ok i understand about setups i like doing them but to have this
Theoretical Damage-Output for Malediction (TL 111):
18929 / 107 * 111 = 19637
i mean dont you think its abit over the top i have no idea what it means for starters anyway my 2 cent tbh its just a game you realy shouldnt put that much thought in it should you ?????
he just adjusted the damage of the malediction to the tl of the silent hunter to be able to compare both numbers.
Both of these weapons are lowtech rare weapons, meaning they have equal bonuses. teh only two differences are TL (by a factor of 1) and HC vs Rifle.
hmm thats not quite correct... the SH is a HIGH tech rifle so it gets the tc bonus... so the damage is quite ok :)
Edit: Sry overseen second page:)
Still unsure about the different weapon systems having different aiming speeds.
It doesn't seem fair given this is a skill based game and all players should be at an equal standing. you move slower with cannons, so theoretically it should be easier to aim with anyway (although i find it easier to aim when i'm faster :D)
you move slower with cannons, so theoretically it should be easier to aim with anyway (although i find it easier to aim when i'm faster :D)
thats what i have always fouind....
the run mauls when u pull a cannon out is hardly noticable on other peoples screans but on your own its terrable
but then it all comes down to how u react to it... i find the fact im moving slower for my own perception i can aim easyer because my ret is moveing less and my mouse has greater controle
BTW
a mal will still do greater damage over longer range and a doomie will still do more damage close up i hope?
Dribble Joy
03-09-06, 17:23
you move slower with cannons, so theoretically it should be easier to aim with anyway (although i find it easier to aim when i'm faster :D)
I don't notice any difference really....
That makes me laugh (sorry)
Sorry?
That meant to be blatent flame? An agreement? Or just a random bit of spam?
Oh and you guys have been talking about aim/recticle. It is funny we use the same value to evaluate each classes, when you know all weapons are meant to have different aim/recticle/damages for about every skills use.
As with all the other stats they are giveing, we are assuming capped skill levels I presume.
Or a given relative skilling.
The most annoying thing about playing a HC user is that your oppoents just run away when they get low health so you have to put your weapon away to chase them in the mean time they've already gained some distance, when you catch them you have to get it out again and they get a free hit or two if they've got their weapon out.
Dribble Joy
03-09-06, 19:10
If you shoot them in the legs they can't run away ;).
if they shoot you in the legs you can't follow. arguments like that are a total waste of space
Dribble Joy
03-09-06, 22:31
[ edited ]
And if this is supposedly a skill based game, if you're better than him, you shoot his legs he doesn't kill your legs and he dies. If he's better than you, you can't kill his legs and he kills you.
Besides, even with the runspeed reduction, tanks will still probably be faster than the other factions, so you can just chase, pull gun out, fire away. Rinse, repeat.
that only leads to a fully healed opponent after a short time. it might work in open space though i doubt it, but if you got corners to run behind (which normally is the case) you won't be able to close the reticule until your foe is away again.
besides, especially as this should be a more or less skillbased game the class of weapon you use shouldn't determine the winner in a match, tho ofc there are certain weapon classes that are better against another class and weaker against yet another the outcome should be determined by skill. that's why this balancing discussion takes place in the first place. following your arguments you could say an apu that misses most casts isn't a big threat, so why making it even harder for him by giving him a reticule?
Besides, even with the runspeed reduction, tanks will still probably be faster than the other factions, so you can just chase, pull gun out, fire away. Rinse, repeat.
it does not work that way, before u get ur gun out people will be far away and before u get lock (wich is more hard the futher people are away) hes practically gone
i play a tank a lot and its very hard to kill people when they run around clip etc cuz of the slow speed u have with weapon out
on a tank u thunderbolt ur enemy neway :P then they dont run hehehe
and if they do run u change to long range hc (which are all currently nerfed aint they ? :mad: ) n pop a few shots more into there legs before chasing
I've just said in the german forum that we allready have reduced the runspeed-malus for riflers and h-c-fighters - it will be smaller in the future.
I've just said in the german forum that we allready have reduced the runspeed-malus for riflers and h-c-fighters - it will be smaller in the future.
Nice :)
Devourer isn't rare, its a faction database item of the black dragon clan.
Take away its rare bonus.
Devourer isn't rare, its a faction database item of the black dragon clan.
Take away its rare bonus.
but it was rare in nc1 and if you get a nc1 dev (like i have :D )
it will still have a light going around the end of it and you can tell if its nc1 cos
1 i dont think it has a the name of the player that built it
2 one of the stats will be alot higher then the rest like on mine i have 120 damage but the rest are about 110%
same as the nc 1 anti buff
but it was rare in nc1 and if you get a nc1 dev (like i have :D )
it will still have a light going around the end of it and you can tell if its nc1 cos
1 i dont think it has a the name of the player that built it
2 one of the stats will be alot higher then the rest like on mine i have 120 damage but the rest are about 110%
same as the nc 1 anti buff
Well of course nc1 devs were rares, but you know, it isn't nc1 anymore, so the bonus of better stats is enough from having an nc1 dev, and the reality is that dev is rediculously easy to get for having a rare bonus.
Dev isn't rare. Don't give it a bonus.
but your not understanding for the few people that have the nc1 dev is rare
the nc1 is anyway why else would you have a light on the end of it
but safunte is right, since it is now a fdb item it shouldn't be considered a rare anymore. unless they really make a distinction between nc1(rare) and nc 2(non rare) devourer that is.
maybe you should also consider that poison is the only damage type where shelter/def does not help. makes a big difference in the end if one weapon gets a 30% damage reduction (and thats only with tl25 shelter) and the other doesnt. of course this doesn't take into account that dev doesnt do pure poison damage, but I guess you get the point.
same goes for every other weapon that deals poison damage, or we won't see anything else being used soon.
but safunte is right, since it is now a fdb item it shouldn't be considered a rare anymore. unless they really make a distinction between nc1(rare) and nc 2(non rare) devourer that is.
Even if the distinction isn't made, there is still a bonus to having an nc1 dev, and thats capping its aiming with a "normal" setup.
RogerRamjet
07-09-06, 14:38
If u can cap an ultimated CS, you can cap an NC2 devourer.
When balancing the Devourer, it wasn’t clear to my why it shouldn’t have rare status. It is of course a faction database item, and therefore not a rare item. That’s why we are planning to implement a rare flamethrower again.
The range of flame throwers will be set to a general value that applies to all flame thrower variations – which makes the most sense in this specific case.
What about NC1 Dev's John?
Any idea on when all this is going to be put on a testserver, because at this rate we'll still be discussing planfiles in 2007, and planfiles are not proof that real action is underway.
Dribble Joy
08-09-06, 14:51
Why does it matter that a 'rare' item is from parts or DB anyway? It's just a level 4 weapon.
One last thing about runspeed;
If he runs: He's a coward and you're better than he is, you win the moral victory.
If he kills you: He's better than you so the speed issue is pretty much null.
you always argue like pvp was standing in front of each other and unloading your clips till one falls down :rolleyes:
btw if it doesn't matter to you then don't talk about it as you'd be as well off with no runspeed nerf for hc at all.
When balancing the Devourer,
in which way are you taking into account that poison damage does not get reduced bei s/d, when balancing devourer and other poison weapons? do you take it into account at all?
in which way are you taking into account that poison damage does not get reduced bei s/d, when balancing devourer and other poison weapons? do you take it into account at all? it should do slightly more dmg anyway, since it's short ranged
I was talking about all poison weapons, and would like to have a general statement. the AK47 isnt that short-ranged, is it?
Why does it matter that a 'rare' item is from parts or DB anyway? It's just a level 4 weapon.
One last thing about runspeed;
If he runs: He's a coward and you're better than he is, you win the moral victory.
If he kills you: He's better than you so the speed issue is pretty much null.
What if he runs and heals up faster than you can because he has 35 PSI not 10 and can cap a level 10 heal instead of half capping it meaning in theory it heals twice as much? Just a point Dribble, I fought a PE once, beat him twice, he stealthed, ran and healthed, then my buffs dropped, and I couldnt heal as fast and I died. So does that make me a worse fighter because I couldnt beat him 3 out of 3? OR him because he had to run twice?
after balance the ionic weapons will do poison and the ceres weapons will do poison. this means every weaponclass has got 2 poison weapons in the higher tls. so i think it should be considered as it will most definately be more abundant
exactly. one of the goals of this balancing effort is to make all weapons useful. if there is a selected few weapons that do damage which is not reduced by shelter nor by deflector, thus making their damage output way bigger than all other weapons in that range, it does not really help to achieve this goal.
Dribble Joy
09-09-06, 02:24
you always argue like pvp was standing in front of each other and unloading your clips till one falls down :rolleyes:
btw if it doesn't matter to you then don't talk about it as you'd be as well off with no runspeed nerf for hc at all.
So again we arrive at the question: Is speed a defence?
I believe it is not.
This is a skill based game, but supposedly a fair one.
Speed may be a defence against lower skilled players, but against one with any real skill it is not. If speed is worked into defence balancing then those with higher abilities will be at an unfair advantage.
Thus, pure dmg and pure defence balancing is the way I think this should all go.
What if he runs and heals up faster than you can because he has 35 PSI not 10 and can cap a level 10 heal instead of half capping it meaning in theory it heals twice as much? Just a point Dribble, I fought a PE once, beat him twice, he stealthed, ran and healthed, then my buffs dropped, and I couldnt heal as fast and I died. So does that make me a worse fighter because I couldnt beat him 3 out of 3? OR him because he had to run twice?
Again you are assuming things based on the current game mechanics.
All classes at solo level should heal propotionately the same speed (as I see it), this would mean that if you separate, when you 'resume' the fight, the proportionate amount of hp regained will be equal.
Buffs dropped? Re-cast for fuck's sake. All my buffs are in my QB.
As to who the victor was? Well he did run away (twice), but you didn't re-cast, leaving yourself open. I'd give you the edge though.
So again we arrive at the question: Is speed a defence?
I believe it is not.
This is a skill based game, but supposedly a fair one.
Speed may be a defence against lower skilled players, but against one with any real skill it is not. If speed is worked into defence balancing then those with higher abilities will be at an unfair advantage.
Thus, pure dmg and pure defence balancing is the way I think this should all go.It most definitely is you silly. No matter how good you are you're gonna have a harder time hitting a fast player than a slow one.
Dribble Joy
09-09-06, 02:46
It most definitely is you silly. No matter how good you are you're gonna have a harder time hitting a fast player than a slow one.
Harder, yes, it will require greater concentration. Will I/you miss any less? No.
Anyone at the top of their game can hit anyone perfectly whatever the speed or movements. It may take more effort than against a slower/less skilled player, but that will not affect the hit rate.
I am out of practice, I was never perfect unlike many PvPers I have come across, but I have only ever had one person give me trouble hitting - slutsumi. Anyone else and it was a matter of not concentrating, not being in the right frame of mind, or some other factor (hungover, been awake for 48 hours, high, etc.) that made me miss, not their speed.
Ok I see what you're saying, runspeed is countered by actual player skill rather than any stats.
What about the melee user chasing a runner with higher runspeed? He's fucked plain and simple. Or the apu with some retarded speed on who keeps running past you breaking your lock? (just making argument now... :p)
Harder, yes, it will require greater concentration. Will I/you miss any less? No.
yes you will. if you've got a char on mars we can try it out - fight me once without and once with being para'd. these are of course extreme differences, but it should show you that speed does matter, and it matters alot.
noone's aim is perfect, unless they are using an aimbot. the best fighters I met (and please spare me the "there's no skill on mars" bs) did NOT hit 100% of their shots.
I also, like Glok, agree with you that this speed thing is hard to balance, and if it is taken into account too much higher skilled players will be at an advantage like you said. consequence for me (as with the aiming): it should be equal for every class.
defence/offence ratio should be equal for all classes
aiming should be equal for all classes
speed should be equal for all classes
Balance.
what i'm aiming at since we first had this discussion is that i fought about most ppl on terra by now and when i lower my cannon to cast my heal i simply get hit less then when i'm having it up. and that was against anyone. i rarely loose a match if i manage to break the opponents legs at start, tho i may be easily defeated if i fail to.
that all is based on my personal experience and about everyone that plays a rifler or even a hc will ahve a similar opinion.
btw saying aiming will be harder but you won't miss more is just nonsense.
John Doe, I'd really like to have an answer about the poison/sd question. is this a non-issue to you ?
Speed
HP
Resists
Damage
Everything is tied to each other, you either trade off runspeed for resist or runspeed for damage (on dex chars)
The better you get the less HP you need.
You can even do chars with high runspeed, low resist/low health and a very high damage output (apu hybrid anyone ?)
The HC tanks should be fast (because the damage output of the tank isnt tied to runspeed, its tied to resists)
Only bad thing about reballancing tanks is taking away the TL3 heal. I dont really think that if APUs can take as much damage as they do now (with ppu, in OP situation) there will be no way a ppu+HC will be able to kill a ppu+apu.
I think both teams of fighters (ppu+tan/apu) should hold equal chances. It will not be so without making the APU weaker, in terms of how much it can take.
is this a non-issue to you ?
seems like the answer to this question is yes.
maybe theres a reason nothing too high level does poison damage, and since its damage over a LONG time, it is easier to outheal unless in massive proportions. You need much less poison resist to do fine against poison as you do with other skills, the concept is, in order to have poison resist you must first lower something else, runspeed/health/resists. Unless you're a tank, then they're just good at con, as they should be.
maybe theres a reason nothing too high level does poison damage,
what tl is the AK47 clone again? 113? with about 18.000 piercing/poison damage?
You need much less poison resist to do fine against poison as you do with other skills,
at the moment this is true. if they implement their weapon/tl/damage thing and not consider poison damage not being lowered by shelter/def, it won't be true anymore. quite the opposite, even if you cap poison resist and put on a vk armor you'll be fucked.
as long as poison remains DoT and is not implemented in a single hit type damage, its fine not being resisted by a shelter.
I dont see the logic behind that. if the damage you can do in one minute is 30-50% more with one weapon type (being ones that can deal poison) than with all other weapon types, why chose something else? stack or instant doesnt matter. you can try it out - compare the dmg dealt by a phosphor terminator to a PPU with S/D running, and after that without shelter. you'll see the difference. then think about terminator being only tl 87 or something, and imagine what the effect would be if it was tl113.
but there's no need to argue from my point if john doe doesnt care, he'll find out on the test server.
So again we arrive at the question: Is speed a defence?
I believe it is not.
This is a skill based game, but supposedly a fair one.
Speed may be a defence against lower skilled players, but against one with any real skill it is not. If speed is worked into defence balancing then those with higher abilities will be at an unfair advantage.
Thus, pure dmg and pure defence balancing is the way I think this should all go.
It's a tough one. Speed should not be added as a defense bonus, but it SHOULD be taken into consideration when balancing Weapon Types.
Speed would not affect those of us with:
a). perfect aiming
b). a powerful enough pc to run the game smoothly
c). no lag
I have to say (c) is will affect us all at some point, but it will happen more with those with a slower connection speed/slower pc.
The main thing with HC tanks is that when u pull out ur gun, your world goes in slow motion. This really seems to help with the aiming part, but for the movements you have to re adjust because your slower.
This probably only effects the player playing the char so others cant really tell your seeing things slow-mo, but you do.
I dont think it should be this way tho, tanks shouldnt have bullet time type bullshit.
They have to make it a bit realistic dude just think if you was to pull something out that’s heavy would you be able to move the speed of light.
They have to make it a bit realistic dude just think if you was to pull something out that’s heavy would you be able to move the speed of light.
and monks pulling 300+ bolts of lighting from the sky is??? :lol:
I get what your saying m8 but think back to before the reload animation, nobody complained then :)
and monks pulling 300+ bolts of lighting from the sky is??? :lol:Using the power of their mind to gather latent static electricity from molecules in the air and focusing this electricity to a point so that it seeks ground? :angel:
Using the power of their mind to gather latent static electricity from molecules in the air and focusing this electricity to a point so that it seeks ground? :angel:
you dont get him i said
NAPPER
They have to make it a bit realistic dude just think if you was to pull something out that’s heavy would you be able to move the speed of light.
so hes saying in his quote like thats realistic. :p
who says in a futuristic world where we can compress matter into tiny spaces. and we can make drones that fly with anti gravity technology... we cant produce a cannon the size of an elephant that weights the same as a mouse =]
The main thing with HC tanks is that when u pull out ur gun, your world goes in slow motion. This really seems to help with the aiming part, but for the movements you have to re adjust because your slower.
This probably only effects the player playing the char so others cant really tell your seeing things slow-mo, but you do.
I dont think it should be this way tho, tanks shouldnt have bullet time type bullshit.
The target is still moving though so it's not as "easy" as you make out, i do think it's easier to hit than when your running faster, but its also much easier to hit a sitting duck.
who says in a futuristic world where we can compress matter into tiny spaces. and we can make drones that fly with anti gravity technology... we cant produce a cannon the size of an elephant that weights the same as a mouse =]We can do that now. Helium. :lol:
Using the power of their mind to gather latent static electricity from molecules in the air and focusing this electricity to a point so that it seeks ground? :angel:
lol smartass :p
but yeah the hc weapon reload is a problem but thats down to the animation not balancing.I dont see why we had the animation put in anyway, we have enough things that help kill us without giving monks waving hands and tanks a longer reload :lol:
Like DJ said
Originally Posted by Dribble Joy
So again we arrive at the question: Is speed a defence?
Movement speed defenetly falls under the "defense" category.
Dodge, and run away, how the fuck isnt that defensive ?
Also, i pointed out in some other thread motnhs ago that the pistol's range is disgustingly high if you compare it to rifles, and the answer from most of the fucking community was that "they shouldnt sacrifice gameplay (nerfing range on non-rifle) for realistic purposes."
We want to have fun, and NC isnt a "simulator" type game, so just make the HC run normal, like other classes, like the melee.
Movement speed defenetly falls under the "defense" category.
Dodge, and run away, how the fuck isnt that defensive ?
Also, i pointed out in some other thread motnhs ago that the pistol's range is disgustingly high if you compare it to rifles, and the answer from most of the fucking community was that "they shouldnt sacrifice gameplay (nerfing range on non-rifle) for realistic purposes."
We want to have fun, and NC isnt a "simulator" type game, so just make the HC run normal, like other classes, like the melee.
I completely agree Kame, if NC was realistic, the second you ran out into the open with a crappy pistol you'd get the crap blown out of you by a rocket or two. PA or no PA. PA would also just give you extra armour, and transport and strength, possibly extra reflexes.
An one last thing, Gentanks have like 65% more strength than the average person (PE) so why would they struggle with heavy weapons?
yeah i guess the tanks runspeed with a weapon drawn is kinda shitty. i know its a cannon, but tanks were made to carry heavy weapons and be stronger than the average person.
like zheo said why should a tank struggle with a cannon?
@ kame- yeah the pistol range is funny i killed 2 tanks at crp with my slasher, the first one i managed to kill from the top mountain at crp while he was in the op :lol:
Apocalypsox
09-10-06, 01:57
in my personal opinion...some cannons should make it very hard to move...but have 100-200 shell clips, so your basically a stationary turret, with a high damage output. Others however should be low- weight and have smaller clips and lower damage but be able to run with it.
I think there should be a howitzer type gun for tanks. a Free fire shell is fired, like a Rocket but faster with no flame trail, and have it like a Gatling cannon with a slower firing speed and more damage (and a bigger bullet model of course)
Doc Holliday
09-10-06, 07:42
John doe already said about 3 pages ago rifle/cannon users will move faster with a weapon drawn.
John doe already said about 3 pages ago rifle/cannon users will move faster with a weapon drawn.
ME :D <-- doesnt read every post. mainly because of lack of time, I seem to get less and less things done, and sleep less and less....
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