View Full Version : Balancing Project Progress
... Project Progress
The balancing’s concept and rulesets have been worked out besides a few finer points. Over the past weeks, we have created a first general test version, which allows us to run comprehensive tests. This internal test phase begins today. The main focus of these tests is weapon handling, resistances and NPC balancing. The goal is to get a general impression of all changes – the GameMaster team will be helping with this.
There are a few topics still up for discussion. During this first test phase, the discussions will continue – we want you to keep evaluating our concepts:
- Melee Combat
- Drone Combat
- Vehicle Combat
- Hacknet Combat and Hacknet NPCs
- APU Combat and PPU Support
- Effect of combat skills on weapon behavior
As you can see, we didn’t forget any section of Neocron. In case some of our Monk players feel a little left out: The discussion about the Monk’s orientation and the changes that have already been implemented will only make sense once they are in context – as the implementation of the PPU does not meet our expectations yet, the APUs will unfortunately also have to wait.
... Begin of the public test server phase
We have set the launch of the public test server to mid-October. Until then, all components of the rebalancing should have been integrated and tested internally. At that point, we will also start new discussion topics to receive your feedback on the changes in an organized manner.
We will use the PvP-Server Neptun as test server. First we will create backups of all of Neptun’s data sets, to be able to restore it to its current state once the tests are over. We hope for the Neptun players’ understanding.
We are also planning a character transfer for the test server phase. It will allow you to copy your existing Runners to Neptun. Furthermore, we have planned comfortable solutions to allow you to easily reset your skill points and to give you access to items (weapons, armor, implants, etc.).
... Current state of the discussions
Especially the combat discussions aren’t exactly exciting reading material – but that’s not their purpose. They contain the most important (and, in our opinion, the most representative) properties of the respective weapon family. They should allow you to figure out if there’s any missing weapons or weapon variations. Unfortunately, another form of discussion is not really possible over the forums. We also do not want to make this process even more complicated by presenting all weapon families at once. This would result in a pretty big mess, where everyone refers to something else – there would hardly be any useful information to be gained!
The choice and time of each topic depends on our workflow. After all, creating, translating, processing and moderating these discussions cuts into development time, which we part with – when it is possible.
In the end, we are very happy with the results we get from the discussions. Many details have found their way into the balancing thanks to your influence. Some of the additional weapon choices that have been requested were implemented before they were mentioned in the forums. This leads us to believe that we are on the right path, and that Neocron will be a "much more loving, beautiful and balanced" place in the future.
Dribble Joy
08-09-06, 18:05
- Effect of combat skills on weapon behavior
*Rubs hands with glee.*
We are also planning a character transfer for the test server phase. It will allow you to copy your existing Runners to Neptun. Furthermore, we have planned comfortable solutions to allow you to easily reset your skill points and to give you access to items (weapons, armor, implants, etc.).
Will this be a copy, or simply a transfer?
No, no - just a copy. Your origin characters will stay unchanged!
Neocron will be a "much more loving, beautiful ..." place in the future.I hope not! :angel:
I was wondering when such an update was going to appear and im glad to see a rather posetive one. News of a test server in mid-October sounds very nice. Will Neptune in it's current form be dealt with when restored after being used as a test server to try and increase it's use?
Also would it be possible to get some "patch notes" for the GM testing phase so we can see what's changed, been added, removed etc?
could we please have a character transfer from neptune? i have no other char's to play on, and i don't want to stop playing :(
could we please have a character transfer from neptune? i have no other char's to play on, and i don't want to stop playing :(What about Zeltarg on Terra? You must have other chars... :confused:
Also, considering the item and levelling bonuses on Neptune.. how about a big Hell No?
What about Zeltarg on Terra? You must have other chars... :confused:
Also, considering the item and levelling bonuses on Neptune.. how about a big Hell No?
Regardless of the bonuses on Neptune I would think it shouldn't be a huge uproar to allow people to get their chars transferred from Neptune to another server for the duration of testing. Whether or not they should go back when the testing is done? ... I dunno. But put yourself in somebody's shoes who only plays Neptune you would be bummed too, to find out that can't play at all (why you would only play Neptune who knows but to each his own). At least let Neptune people copy their chars to the test server so they got something they can play. Ok maybe it's only a handful of people that play only Neptune but with the current pops do we really need to push more people away. BTW I don't have a Neptune char at all but let's try to think of others :)
Also it's freakin awesome to hear that the balancing is progressing. Looking forward to October.
i doubt there is a single person that plays only neptune, i even doubt there's one that plays there primarely :p
i doubt there is a single person that plays only neptune, i even doubt there's one that plays there primarely :p just me, apocalypsox and a few others.
Forget My Name
08-09-06, 19:42
Thank you VERY much for keeping us updated!!!!
Bishop Yutani
08-09-06, 20:22
The update is much appreciated. Thanks. :p
[edit from myself - since this is the balance project, i felt it right to be posted in here as opposed to it's own thread to have it apart of this project.]
A few of us were discussing this the other night in military base, if you were there chances are you were apart of the discussion. We feel that the changes that have been taking place are ignoring the major issues that can be fixed with a few simple ideas. While we can't fix everything, alot of players have grown acustom to crashes and eternal sync and no matter how frustrating that can be alot of people still play the game. A few major problems that we face now come from:
1. Game play revolving around player vs. player combat (Safe Zones, soullight, etc.)
2. Lack of a player base
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1. Game play revolving around player vs. player combat (Safe Zones, soullight, etc.)
There has been a never ending discussion since the beginning of time relating to these issues and no one can seem to agree on any issues so we can never get it right. We need to finally address this situation and get it fixed because we've lost so many good players in the game to it and lose more all the time. No one really quit the game, as everyone knows this is an addiction. Alot of people have reformed their acts and are playing other games but we all know theres nothing like the neocron pvp system.
Since the beginning of time the argument of safezones and non-safezones have been faught between players, now we currently have main places (tech haven and plaza 1) as safe zones, whilst the rest are unsafe. Score one point finally for nonsafe zones, but no one goes to them!? With the addition to the dome of york you created another hugh city for a small player base and thus drove a deeper wedge between people fighting. That's great if you have the players to inhabit all areas but we don't anymore. People used to love fighting in pepper park 1/plaza 3 zone line. Why? Because it was close for everyone, lots of people and NO GUARDS! The first thing that needs to be done is to liberate tech haven as a safe zone and send people back to their cities to inhabit it, the brave players who want to trade between and role play meet in tech haven. If you were around for neocron 1 or beta you know that the best fights were the raiding of and defense of tech haven city. It never really needed guards or turrets because the people rose up and defended it, thats the way it should be. Keep the players involved! Than once you have that finished read onto the next suggestion...
Remove the guards alot of the guards, lower their level so a team can kill them and remove para from them..
What's the point of having a non-safe zone where you can't fight in it? A few people can't go in there and pvp and deal with guards at the same time. The city shouldn't have a guard that can take 50 people shooting him for that long, remember he's a hired goon. He should suck, the real defense is the people.. remember? KEEP THEM INVOLVED IN THE GAME. The only thing that can be done now is allied player killing but not with the current soul light system so whats the point of this? Remove the guards, encourage game play again. Guard para is completely stupid and the only reason it's there is to make it so one guard can kill any player that doesn't have a ppu. Completely ridiculous.
Next we need to fix the soul light issue
The whole idea behind soul light is that if I were to kill someone who wasn't my enemy I would be seen as a bad person and thus punished for it? Correct? Well realisitcally if this was real life than everyone would have esp and we would know a serial killer by looking at them. We don't we know it's them because they have a reputation. Just like clans that go around ganking people all day, they gain a rep and people want to fight them. So why not remove soullight because its pointless, not realistic and no one likes it. Impliment a reputation that you CAN'T just do missions to do in a ten minutes. Have certainly level reputations that take awhile to gain high level, anyone who has this reputation level will have an easier to open belt because the belt security service doesn't like them as much, call it karma. Their dogtags are worth money through the City Admin's redemtion service! The only way we can reduce our reputation is to be productive members, so overtime not doing bad things our reputation will lower, maybe missions can help this but not that easy to do. I also emphasize that it is not easy to gain a high bad rep otherwise the system is faulty. We're talking long term/mass killing of allied/neutral players in all sectors. Therefore it is possible to do this, but if you enjoy doing this you already like the attention and the fighting so there are down sides and upsides to both the killers and the killed.
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2. Lack of a player base
Fixing alot listed above will add a balance to the game again and make it more player vs. player again since thats what this game is based around, but its changed so much to cater towards non pvp. The biggest problem we face now is..
The New faction allegiances/hostilitys
Who honestly likes this whole Pro vs. Anti stuff? There's no role play with it, it's only black and white no gray areas. So we're fighting the dome vs. the city of neocron, and the hugh gap inbetween with like 10% player base average? That's like playing battlefield 2 on a 64 player map with 4 people. It's just silly. We need to fix the game play balance by using the older faction allegiances from neocron 1 and beta. That creates the gray area again, fights in the dome and fights in the city between factions. That way when everyone looks at their worldmap doesn't see 4 different colors (terra) that are always in the same place.
We need more people!
If we fix alot of these stupid issues we have listed above alot of people will come back, since thats alot of the reasons they quit. I mean it's not going to fix everything but it's a start and it's relativly simple things to change. I mean clearly whats going on now ISN't working. So what would it hurt to change reakktor? It worked in neocron 1 and beta did it not?
Also a suggestion since we have 4 servers, three used, and one turning into a test server, we have at peak time right now:
15% on mars
4% on mercurty
10% terra
so if we were to add that togather.. 29% player base. That seems like a whole lotta fun to me :)
If we cut the cost on servers being used to one player server, and one test server than you guys save money and put it into development and soon we will have a higher player base and we can split the servers again or upgrade to allow more people on the 'super server' since alot of people won't really want to leave.
This discussion contains ideas from myself, Wilheim Schneider, Maflet (terra server). We thank you and please please listen! We don't want this game to die, we need our crack!
This section I am adding as my own opinion and not the opinions of those listed above.
Fixing the para whining.
A class that cannot attack should not be easy to kill, fair enough. PPU's are balanced if you work as a team and stop them. Although the only problem I see is not that para shouldn't exsist, but it needs adjusting along with speeds.
People who can run superfast are the only ones that need to be slowed down so people can hit them, not because there so fast but because of the lag most people are faced with and the netcode doesn't always register hits. Therefore it's impossible to hit them unless they get slower. So we need to slow them down. Once they are capped at running so fast, we no longer have need to 'para' anyone which means basically stopping them in their tracks for slower people. Although the use of para can come in handy, so I find that it if those people are slowed down there's no use for such a strong para. Problem solved, slow them down and reduce para.
Also if you don't slow them down all they have to do is take a drug and your para was completely worthless. No one can hit them, it's like exploiting the netcode. So doing nothing, is just a bad thing!
Dribble Joy
08-09-06, 21:50
That's great if you have the players to inhabit all areas but we don't anymore.
While I agree on that point in principle, I don't necessarily agree with your solution.
I have said similar before. Without a need to go to a variety of places/zones on a regular basis, without over-lap between areas of influence, you will not get widespread PvP as it's intended.
Remove TH as a safe zone yes, but you need to ensure that other places don't take it's place, places such as MB. Giving MB harsher penalties for killing and make it non safe. People would then avoid it as a place to do business.
Remove the guards alot of the guards, lower their level so a team can kill them and remove para from them..
What's the point of having a non-safe zone where you can't fight in it? A few people can't go in there and pvp and deal with guards at the same time. The city shouldn't have a guard that can take 50 people shooting him for that long, remember he's a hired goon. He should suck, the real defense is the people.. remember? KEEP THEM INVOLVED IN THE GAME. The only thing that can be done now is allied player killing but not with the current soul light system so whats the point of this? Remove the guards, encourage game play again. Guard para is completely stupid and the only reason it's there is to make it so one guard can kill any player that doesn't have a ppu. Completely ridiculous.
Guards should discourage a smal team (2-3 people) but should crumble agains anything bigger and as you rightly said, make the true defence the defending players.
Personally, make the guards lvl 70 and the copbots lvl 90, with normal dmg for that lvl and no para.
Next we need to fix the soul light issue
The whole idea behind soul light is that if I were to kill someone who wasn't my enemy I would be seen as a bad person and thus punished for it? Correct? Well realisitcally if this was real life than everyone would have esp and we would know a serial killer by looking at them. Etc. etc.
SL is indeed a mess, especially with things like CM and any other potential relations changes in the future.
Personally, my proposal would be to remove SL entirely and base everything (specifically guard reaction) on symps. Prices, access, virtually everything would be dependant on how you went about in the game. Symp would be in effect, SL for each faction.
15% on mars
4% on mercurty
10% terra
Depends what time you play. Mars reaches 21 and terra 16.
Fixing the para whining.
A class that cannot attack should not be easy to kill, fair enough. PPU's are balanced if you work as a team and stop them. Although the only problem I see is not that para shouldn't exsist, but it needs adjusting along with speeds.
People who can run superfast are the only ones that need to be slowed down so people can hit them, not because there so fast but because of the lag most people are faced with and the netcode doesn't always register hits. Therefore it's impossible to hit them unless they get slower. So we need to slow them down. Once they are capped at running so fast, we no longer have need to 'para' anyone which means basically stopping them in their tracks for slower people. Although the use of para can come in handy, so I find that it if those people are slowed down there's no use for such a strong para. Problem solved, slow them down and reduce para.
Also if you don't slow them down all they have to do is take a drug and your para was completely worthless. No one can hit them, it's like exploiting the netcode. So doing nothing, is just a bad thing!
I cannot disagree more. But this is not really the time or place to discuss para.
Please restrict your discussion to the balancing project in this part of the forum but feel free to discuss other issues you may feel are important in Comm Talk.
N
Apocalypsox
09-09-06, 00:07
i doubt there is a single person that plays only neptune, i even doubt there's one that plays there primarely :p
i have 2 capped chars on neptune and 2 other chars im working on :lol:
just me, apocalypsox and a few others.
I was quite active on neptune -
Still log other now and again-
Its not the XP , Its the items like MC5 ....
You cant say there is advantage getting MC5's other there - Infact its harder....
Less people to trade with
Finally we may rejoice! :p
Cant wait for the Testserver! I will prolly transfer my HC and MC Tank from Terra and Mars, as Tanks just appeal the most to me. :cool:
ive forgot is neptune a 2 slot or 1 slot server?????
Roc-a-fella
09-09-06, 07:54
im feeling the info on the test server
ive forgot is neptune a 2 slot or 1 slot server?????
2 Slot i believe.
Good to hear things are progressing (albeit quite slowly), but how exactly are we going to test the other two classes if we only have two character slots, and only the ability to level up our test characters to cap, or make copies of our existing characters (which might not be capped for that matter)?
Will I want to level a new character to cap just to delete it after testing? Fuck no.
What if we want to test a class that we don't have a capped equivalent of? For example, I have Two PE's, Three Spies, Two Monks and one free slot over two accounts, but no capped Tank, what am I going to do if I wanted to test out the Tank class?
Change the default character creation settings for Neptune so that characters start with capped levels (and possibly WoC 1 for testing the WoC weapons too) plus about 50k for GR fees.
Make it a 4 slot server temporarily as well, unless the settings are changed in a slightly hardcore way that stop us from waiting an hour to get a new test character up and running, assuming the above proposal would be made a reality. ie, Making implant times instant, removal of all SI.
Dribble Joy
09-09-06, 13:38
Just make it like the old TS. Special LoMs, NPCs handing out cash and all items.
Q: are PEs going to have a decrease in defence that is equal to their increase in attack power when they go hightech? atm you can hardly tell the difference between the defence of a lowtech PE and a slasher PE.
good point :p
atm it seems to me that tc will be a much too good package to not have (nanites,stealth,better weapons in contrast to a lil bit higher runspeed that gets nerfed by being either rc or hc and having much higher stamina drain forcing at least pes that use the speedy to put in an experimental heart instead of a filter heart and a bq chest instead of a antigamma)
I hope so .. would love to go lowtech again.
RogerRamjet
10-09-06, 18:29
Q: are PEs going to have a decrease in defence that is equal to their increase in attack power when they go hightech? atm you can hardly tell the difference between the defence of a lowtech PE and a slasher PE.
I hope so, like it was in NC1.
If you were judge for instance, you had a cookie cutter setup, and often PA3, or 4.
On the other hand you had lotech Pain Easer PEs using PPR and Moveon. Slightly slow, but great defense. Plus the lack of a gaya glove for DB meant it was still relatively balanced (cant tell with current weapon formulas atm, probably too easy to cap).
Dribble Joy
10-09-06, 19:53
Q: are PEs going to have a decrease in defence that is equal to their increase in attack power when they go hightech? atm you can hardly tell the difference between the defence of a lowtech PE and a slasher PE.
The dmg boost is because of the additional skilling to use a high tech.
A low tech and a high tech pistol (or rifle) of the same TL should do the same dmg/time, but the problem is that the high tech user has to spec TC, thus lowering his offencive powers.
What increasing the hightech dmg will do is that no only will lower lvl high tech weapons again have the potential to become viable weapons (the black sun for example), but also means you can have high level low tech weapons (well above the ~tl95 limit at current) without making the current high tech weapons useless.
For example, if they made a rare gat rifle which was tl 110 and did as much dmg as a HL (ignoring the HL's current issues), who would want to use a HL?
With the new system, the loss of RC to spec TC would directly counter the increased dmg output.
sry, maybe hightech was the wrong word to use. i meant using higher tl weapons.
For example, if they made a rare gat rifle which was tl 110 and did as much dmg as a HL (ignoring the HL's current issues), who would want to use a HL?
at least 90% of the ppl that really try it and not just make a char in neoskiller that would look great would use the hl :p
reasons:
1. gatling weapons need to be on target about all the time to do even close to full damage
2. stamina drain which no tc user even considers when making a char. but unless you are willing to crouch constantly or reload after 3 salves you have to get stamina up, which btw lowers your defenses much more then having to spend the 60 or sthing points needed to use a tc rifle (noone using that argument seems to be using implants :lol: ).
most ppl are ignorant about this and that's why there are so many totally fucked up setups in this forum that all tc players think are great cause they got nice resists.
in fact a lotech hc pe will be faster than a tc one, he will have more hack and psu, but he most definately will have lower resists.
good news. i look forward to seeing the changes.
[COLOR=Red][B]PPU's are balanced if you work as a team and stop them.
Yeah. Anything is balanced if you have a big enough team to fight them with. Not really the point.
at least 90% of the ppl that really try it and not just make a char in neoskiller that would look great would use the hl :p
reasons:
1. gatling weapons need to be on target about all the time to do even close to full damage
2. stamina drain which no tc user even considers when making a char. but unless you are willing to crouch constantly or reload after 3 salves you have to get stamina up, which btw lowers your defenses much more then having to spend the 60 or sthing points needed to use a tc rifle (noone using that argument seems to be using implants :lol: ).
most ppl are ignorant about this and that's why there are so many totally fucked up setups in this forum that all tc players think are great cause they got nice resists.
in fact a lotech hc pe will be faster than a tc one, he will have more hack and psu, but he most definately will have lower resists.
Soz there Yuki, but why would Hi-Tech TPC Cause lower psi use? or hack...
You dont really need anymore points in wep lore -
Also The points spent in TC are nothing .... Once you get agility that high, its basically pointless...
So apart from a small transport cost, or endurance.....
There is nothing to make you have less resists.
Doesn't wep lore affect hitech more than lowtech? That's what i've always thought.
The bonus of using low tech weapons is: -89 or so tech combat? Thats around 142 free points, now if only there was some point to that? Maybe if you want to be a combat driver? Or a combat recycler/repper? Or maybe if your a PE going high tech means you can't cap the high tech rares because you spend the 142 odd points in tech your lowering you possible rifle/pistol combat by 24 roughly. That would be the point of low tech private eyes, because they don't have the dex points to cap a slasher! at the moment they just have no agility and use white and or red flash, and have no other skills other than PC-TC and Agil. Imagin if Red/White flash wasn't around and they had no run speed! I'm sure that would stop alot of slasher pe's, simply because they where a sitting duck. Personally I wouldn't go low tech because my pvp character IS That a pvp character, low tech is kinda for trade skillers/and exotic set ups. because it allows them to have a damaging weapon-ish for fewer skill points.
Just my thoughs but I could be wrong though...
Ok now a question: I agree that with 2 slots we cant test one of each character, I think if we can't have a 4slot server we should have the option of being able to delete characters and getting a noob capped via npc or GM. SO for example I test a PE Pistoler, and a Spy Rifler, but what about Tanks and Monk and come to think about it, what about Droner PE, HC PE, MC PE, Rifler PE? What about Hacknet PE? See it's much more than just 4 tests it's loads and lomming SHOULD be for fine tuning your set up's resists etc. their should be NPC's who can cap a character and remove all skill points in a skill so that we can try out everything after all this server is not periminant it IS a test! We should be able to try out everything with every character possible so that we call ALL be sure in our own minds that everything is right, it's no good me testing MC and HC tanks and nothing else, or maybe MC/HC tanks and Rifle/Pistol pe's if i have to lom all day and night, if I can't test everything else, because I can only give you pointings on that.
Soz there Yuki, but why would Hi-Tech TPC Cause lower psi use? or hack...
You dont really need anymore points in wep lore -
Also The points spent in TC are nothing .... Once you get agility that high, its basically pointless...
So apart from a small transport cost, or endurance.....
There is nothing to make you have less resists.
erm speedy needs around 30 wpl (depending on hc ofc :p )
and i totally agree that for hc chars tc isn't an issue as all of these classes have plenty of dex to spare. and pc/rc users get around 20 points or sthing like that from implants so they only need to skill 60-70 points.
for speedy stamina needs to be around 150 tho and that's not as easy to get as it may sound on a pe, that's why resists are lower
is it free play? open to inactive accounts as well?
Dribble Joy
11-09-06, 17:04
30 points in TC (most people probably have more) means 6 more PC or RC, which does make a difference.
As for HC/MC weapons, yes the TC factor is minimal. Either those weapon classes should not get a benefit for high tech, or something like agl could be made more important to them.
As to gig's initial question; This is what I was reffering to when I rubbed my hands with glee at the fact we will be getting a skill discussion.
Personally, the solution would be something of a return to NC1 skill effects, though with a slight alteration.
In NC1 the skill effects on weapons was more or less open ended. It was very hard to cap a weapon (freq in the case of pistols, rifles, cannons and maybe melee).
This meant that a hightech user, with low tech resists and a cirtain combat skilling would get pretty much the same dmg/time as a low tech user with the same skilling.
For example, you could just about cap a libby with moveon/ppr, about 174 pc afaik (wep didn't affect freq)), with the same pc, you got 160 rpm on a judge (cap is 185). This meant you were reasonably equal and all was good. A judge user could pop his ppr or moveon for a target 3, more offence, less defence and again things would be good.
The problem now is that with equal or even less skilling as before you can cap a judge, so that the low tl weapons were essentially pushed out of viability and 'had' to use DB. With wep affecting freq it became easier to get high stats on high level weapons. So with setups that would resemble and old 'middle' judge setup, you would get near-capped or capped stats on weapons 13 tls higher.
What I would propose is - as said - a reversal to something akin to the NC1 system.
Due to 'realism' and game mechanics issues, I'd make the dmg stat open ended instead of freq. Remove the wep affect on dmg, so it's purely the PC/RC/HC/MC/APU value that affects the real dmg/time (freq would be easy to cap, as though there's nothing wrong in having freq vaguely open ended, it's messy). Then, either remove the dmg cap entirely or (if not possible) move it completely out of reach.
Your offencive power would then be directly influenced by the setup and the direction you want to take you char.
Thus a judge, libby and slasher PE/spy with the same PC would have equal offencive powers (though clearly to reach the dex required, more offencive imps would have to be taken, meaning that having to the same skilling would be detrimental, just making a point).
You would then get a massive range of setups, not just one or two per weapon, that would be equal to one another.
Hope that made vague sense.
Re: PA.
Make PA akin to an offencive type implant. Lower defence bonus than the middle armours (viper, titan) but with offence boosts. Then you could also have defence imp type PAs, with offence malii and higher defence benefits.
Nice little update, and I'm glad to see stuff like Drone combat hasn't been forgotten, I was a bit worried it had!
What about items tracking on the test server ? ;)
30 points in TC (most people probably have more) means 6 more PC or RC, which does make a difference.
As for HC/MC weapons, yes the TC factor is minimal. Either those weapon classes should not get a benefit for high tech, or something like agl could be made more important to them.
HC users lose sleep because of the run nerf, so although we have the points to spec agility without drugs (as it should be) We are still slow! With a weapon out, Just because some stupid PE's want to use a slasher which by all rights they shouldn't beable to do, and hopefully wont, the reason behind that is that, a spy should have weaker resist than a PE, but more powerful weapon. and a PE should have a less powerful weapon but better resists. PE's should be going around with cap of 105 weapons maybe, while spy should get up to 115 or higher if the push the bar. if a PE can get better resists/health and the same weapon as a spy then by all rights a spy is useless. If PE's didn't spec for tl 115 slashers etc, they should need less TC and PC meaning that they can spec more agil, and need less drugs. You may have noticed that PE's are the only ones who can actually get into level 4 pa with any good reason, and HC tanks very rarely have pa since people complain about the athletic nerf
Forget My Name
12-09-06, 09:18
Zheo hit one of the major imbalances of the game.
PE is the jack of all trade... actually no. PE is the master of most trades. PE does just about everything a SPY can do but better. What can a SPY do better? Construct? Wow.....
Zheo hit one of the major imbalances of the game.
PE is the jack of all trade... actually no. PE is the master of most trades. PE does just about everything a SPY can do but better. What can a SPY do better? Construct? Wow.....
Not construct -
Caps at 150 or somet daft -
Ressearch... Now that they can do better.
-Cant edit 2 late,
They also cant drive all Vehicles ...... Dam those PE's... Little bundles of love they are..
Anyways - Is there no chance of a Neptune merge / Char transfer ...
Alot of people transfered NC1 chars to that server and was dissapointed, I think a server transfer would birng some players back to the game...
(No i dont have amazing XP on there, not even 1 fully capped char) -
You could resist every1's XP to 160m...
Reading that post gave me a tickle in spot I would rather not mention (my neck, gosh you gutter minds!). I certainly look forward to the changes and will personally consider taking full advantage of the test server.
--
Photcron
RogerRamjet
12-09-06, 14:45
HC users lose sleep because of the run nerf, so although we have the points to spec agility without drugs (as it should be) We are still slow! With a weapon out, Just because some stupid PE's want to use a slasher which by all rights they shouldn't beable to do, and hopefully wont, the reason behind that is that, a spy should have weaker resist than a PE, but more powerful weapon. and a PE should have a less powerful weapon but better resists. PE's should be going around with cap of 105 weapons maybe, while spy should get up to 115 or higher if the push the bar. if a PE can get better resists/health and the same weapon as a spy then by all rights a spy is useless. If PE's didn't spec for tl 115 slashers etc, they should need less TC and PC meaning that they can spec more agil, and need less drugs. You may have noticed that PE's are the only ones who can actually get into level 4 pa with any good reason, and HC tanks very rarely have pa since people complain about the athletic nerf
Your post basically sums up the effects of the weapon formula change NC1 -> NC2.
Dribble Joy
12-09-06, 16:19
HC users lose sleep because of the run nerf, so although we have the points to spec agility without drugs (as it should be) We are still slow!
I disagree, as I've said allready :p.
edit:
As I've said allready, I have nothing against removing the RC/HC runspeed reduction. As I see it, it has little real effect on PvP, so whether it's in or out is more or less irrelevant. The question then is whether you want to alliviate a placebo or maintain some form or realism (balance comes before realism, but where balance would be unaffected, realism should be upheld).
With a weapon out, Just because some stupid PE's want to use a slasher which by all rights they shouldn't beable to do, and hopefully wont, the reason behind that is that, a spy should have weaker resist than a PE, but more powerful weapon. and a PE should have a less powerful weapon but better resists. PE's should be going around with cap of 105 weapons maybe, while spy should get up to 115 or higher if the push the bar. if a PE can get better resists/health and the same weapon as a spy then by all rights a spy is useless. If PE's didn't spec for tl 115 slashers etc, they should need less TC and PC meaning that they can spec more agil, and need less drugs. You may have noticed that PE's are the only ones who can actually get into level 4 pa with any good reason, and HC tanks very rarely have pa since people complain about the athletic nerf
Yes.... like roger said, and the rest of my post you didn't quote laid out, the NC2 skill system (and to an extent some of the items) is to blame. A return to something similar to the NC1 system would fix a lot of the balance issues with PEs and spies.
PE is the jack of all trade...
Common misperception. The PE is not a Joat.
If he were, then he could persue all skill paths to a reasonable level at the same time.
But he cannot, he simply has the potential to go down more paths than the other classes, far from being a JoaT, PEs actually have to specialise far more than the other classes (which I have no problem with and in fact uphold). He still has to choose a single path. The fact that he draws upon all of the different aspects to achieve viability is not to be confused with JoaTage.
RogerRamjet
13-09-06, 00:31
30 points in TC (most people probably have more) means 6 more PC or RC, which does make a difference.
As for HC/MC weapons, yes the TC factor is minimal. Either those weapon classes should not get a benefit for high tech, or something like agl could be made more important to them.
As to gig's initial question; This is what I was reffering to when I rubbed my hands with glee at the fact we will be getting a skill discussion.
Personally, the solution would be something of a return to NC1 skill effects, though with a slight alteration.
In NC1 the skill effects on weapons was more or less open ended. It was very hard to cap a weapon (freq in the case of pistols, rifles, cannons and maybe melee).
This meant that a hightech user, with low tech resists and a cirtain combat skilling would get pretty much the same dmg/time as a low tech user with the same skilling.
For example, you could just about cap a libby with moveon/ppr, about 174 pc afaik (wep didn't affect freq)), with the same pc, you got 160 rpm on a judge (cap is 185). This meant you were reasonably equal and all was good. A judge user could pop his ppr or moveon for a target 3, more offence, less defence and again things would be good.
The problem now is that with equal or even less skilling as before you can cap a judge, so that the low tl weapons were essentially pushed out of viability and 'had' to use DB. With wep affecting freq it became easier to get high stats on high level weapons. So with setups that would resemble and old 'middle' judge setup, you would get near-capped or capped stats on weapons 13 tls higher.
What I would propose is - as said - a reversal to something akin to the NC1 system.
Due to 'realism' and game mechanics issues, I'd make the dmg stat open ended instead of freq. Remove the wep affect on dmg, so it's purely the PC/RC/HC/MC/APU value that affects the real dmg/time (freq would be easy to cap, as though there's nothing wrong in having freq vaguely open ended, it's messy). Then, either remove the dmg cap entirely or (if not possible) move it completely out of reach.
Your offencive power would then be directly influenced by the setup and the direction you want to take you char.
Thus a judge, libby and slasher PE/spy with the same PC would have equal offencive powers (though clearly to reach the dex required, more offencive imps would have to be taken, meaning that having to the same skilling would be detrimental, just making a point).
You would then get a massive range of setups, not just one or two per weapon, that would be equal to one another.
Hope that made vague sense.
Re: PA.
Make PA akin to an offencive type implant. Lower defence bonus than the middle armours (viper, titan) but with offence boosts. Then you could also have defence imp type PAs, with offence malii and higher defence benefits.
Sorry i didnt see this post earlier, but I agree with all the points raised.
Dribble Joy
13-09-06, 01:00
Doesn't just apply to PEs/Spies and/or dex weapons, but to all classes and weapon systems.
HC users lose sleep because of the run nerf, so although we have the points to spec agility without drugs (as it should be) We are still slow! With a weapon out, Just because some stupid PE's want to use a slasher which by all rights they shouldn't beable to do, and hopefully wont, the reason behind that is that, a spy should have weaker resist than a PE, but more powerful weapon. and a PE should have a less powerful weapon but better resists. PE's should be going around with cap of 105 weapons maybe, while spy should get up to 115 or higher if the push the bar. if a PE can get better resists/health and the same weapon as a spy then by all rights a spy is useless. If PE's didn't spec for tl 115 slashers etc, they should need less TC and PC meaning that they can spec more agil, and need less drugs. You may have noticed that PE's are the only ones who can actually get into level 4 pa with any good reason, and HC tanks very rarely have pa since people complain about the athletic nerf
Humm I donno somedays I'm all for the run speed nerf and other days I'm thinking tanks are really gimped and slow. But then I imagine how it would be if they was as fast as a pistol user with weapon out, sure they would still be easy to hit. But its question of what could a player who normaly plays a pistol PE do with a CS without the runspeed nerf, tare anyone to bits because its one of the most powerfull weapons in the game.
/edit with PPU butt plugs and parra no... otherwise yes as a solo fighter and not some wonder boy with god mode ppu buffs on running around with a fucking dev just as fast a pistol or melee user. Though I'm all for tanks getting some extra speed, maybe just as fast a rifle user, their fairly slow from my experence but not as slow as H-C tank which is painfully slow atm
30 points in TC (most people probably have more) means 6 more PC or RC, which does make a difference.
As for HC/MC weapons, yes the TC factor is minimal. Either those weapon classes should not get a benefit for high tech, or something like agl could be made more important to them.
As to gig's initial question; This is what I was reffering to when I rubbed my hands with glee at the fact we will be getting a skill discussion.
Personally, the solution would be something of a return to NC1 skill effects, though with a slight alteration.
In NC1 the skill effects on weapons was more or less open ended. It was very hard to cap a weapon (freq in the case of pistols, rifles, cannons and maybe melee).
This meant that a hightech user, with low tech resists and a cirtain combat skilling would get pretty much the same dmg/time as a low tech user with the same skilling.
For example, you could just about cap a libby with moveon/ppr, about 174 pc afaik (wep didn't affect freq)), with the same pc, you got 160 rpm on a judge (cap is 185). This meant you were reasonably equal and all was good. A judge user could pop his ppr or moveon for a target 3, more offence, less defence and again things would be good.
The problem now is that with equal or even less skilling as before you can cap a judge, so that the low tl weapons were essentially pushed out of viability and 'had' to use DB. With wep affecting freq it became easier to get high stats on high level weapons. So with setups that would resemble and old 'middle' judge setup, you would get near-capped or capped stats on weapons 13 tls higher.
What I would propose is - as said - a reversal to something akin to the NC1 system.
Due to 'realism' and game mechanics issues, I'd make the dmg stat open ended instead of freq. Remove the wep affect on dmg, so it's purely the PC/RC/HC/MC/APU value that affects the real dmg/time (freq would be easy to cap, as though there's nothing wrong in having freq vaguely open ended, it's messy). Then, either remove the dmg cap entirely or (if not possible) move it completely out of reach.
Your offencive power would then be directly influenced by the setup and the direction you want to take you char.
Thus a judge, libby and slasher PE/spy with the same PC would have equal offencive powers (though clearly to reach the dex required, more offencive imps would have to be taken, meaning that having to the same skilling would be detrimental, just making a point).
You would then get a massive range of setups, not just one or two per weapon, that would be equal to one another.
Hope that made vague sense.
Re: PA.
Make PA akin to an offencive type implant. Lower defence bonus than the middle armours (viper, titan) but with offence boosts. Then you could also have defence imp type PAs, with offence malii and higher defence benefits.
I agree with going back to NC1 skill system, the slasher and exe on a PE is a bit extreme with the old damage boost, infact i think PE's are more suited to a capped judge without the damage boost and I'm worryed really worryed about something i heard about PE's being able to debuff people with nanos or some shit. ER NOTHX we already had that problem with the fucking spirt modded shit and SPYS/PES being overpowered with it, longer fights are more fun in this game.
I still think a PE should be able to cap a judge without gimping but he should need an SA at least in order to cap it and a good built one too :)
/edit as for the xbow well, you have to earn it and oh it needs a slightly smaller clip size and damage boost is a problem as much as para is when used with that thing.
Dribble Joy
13-09-06, 17:23
I still think a PE should be able to cap a judge without gimping but he should need an SA at least in order to cap it and a good built one too :)
The problem then is what about people using lowtech/lower tl weapons?
To me, caps are more or less a barrier to variation and as we can see at the moment, balance. For the sake of simplicity though it would be easier to keep a single stat open ended (and dmg is the easiest one to do that with).
Even with a kami you shouldn't cap anything, then at least you gain the full advantage of it's benefits.
Remember that in the probable range of (dex based) weapons, the judge will be one of the top weapons they can use (assuming it remains at tl 100).
Back to my original reason for this post though.
Are there plans to sort the mob situation?
Some of them are far to easy, especially fire mobs. I'm scared of taking on 3 WBTs solo, yet I'm perfectly happy to tackle a percy and a chaser together.
-We have set the launch of the public test server to mid-October.
-We will use the PvP-Server Neptun as test server.
-We are also planning a character transfer for the test server phase. It will allow you to copy your existing Runners to Neptun. Furthermore, we have planned comfortable solutions to allow you to easily reset your skill points and to give you access to items (weapons, armor, implants, etc.).
The best three news I have heard in a long time.
We have set the launch of the public test server to mid-October. . omfg....i just released that you gave us an actual time for something to happen. i haven't seen KK do that in several years :D
I don't think pes will have the ability to use slasher and exec anymore post ballancing, which is good.
And with the weaponslineup changes the xbow will be nerfed to the level of a judge with the woc bonus, yet with shitty stats, so still needing slasher exec speccing to cap.
As for db: A hightech pistoler or rifler pe casts his db way slower than a lowtech one.
but let's just see what the testserver brings, as we're all concentrating on a few classes here, where in fact ALL classes get changed. So basicaly we know nothing at all and it's all mere speculation.
Dribble Joy
15-09-06, 13:48
I don't think pes will have the ability to use slasher and exec anymore post ballancing, which is good.
Technically, assuming the skill system is fixed it doesn't really matter if they can or not. Not being able to use weapons above about tl 105 is more to do with class distinction.
And with the weaponslineup changes the xbow will be nerfed to the level of a judge with the woc bonus, yet with shitty stats, so still needing slasher exec speccing to cap.
Depends what tl it is, whether they bring in mods for it and stuff.
As for db: A hightech pistoler or rifler pe casts his db way slower than a lowtech one.
Not really, a high tech PE can easily get over 100 psu. DJ would have 130 if she didn't poke.
but let's just see what the testserver brings, as we're all concentrating on a few classes here, where in fact ALL classes get changed. So basicaly we know nothing at all and it's all mere speculation.
Exactly ;).
omfg....i just released that you gave us an actual time for something to happen. i haven't seen KK do that in several years :D
I know... doesn't fill one with complete confidence does it :p.
123 Wep lore
130 PSI use -
-
Lowtech tend to have
80 wep lore
110 hck
130 psi use :)
Dribble Joy
15-09-06, 16:12
Don't need that much wep for lowtech, I cap the judge with 53. Though I use PA and have 172 PC so that I can get semi decent psu and poke 115.
I'd appreciate weekly or bi-weekly progress updates. This is borderline going on too long, or just too slowly.
*wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge*
its a damn good hint when people start SUGGESTING the idea of periodic updates, you know... something scheduled almost so they can KNOW somehting is ACTUALLY HAPPENING and we're not just burning time for you in this silly forum that you pick seldom few ideas out of.
The following idea would IMO be a great idea, thats been suggested by so many including myself...
15% on mars
4% on mercurty
10% terra
so if we were to add that togather.. 29% player base. That seems like a whole lotta fun to me :)
If we cut the cost on servers being used to one player server, and one test server than you guys save money and put it into development and soon we will have a higher player base and we can split the servers again or upgrade to allow more people on the 'super server' since alot of people won't really want to leave.
I'd much rather see someone in the game other than damn Tech Haven, rather than spending hours trying to find someone but actually giving up after half and hour and quitting!
It's at the point where they need to be merged just to populate the world reasonably, otherwise you'll loose the final remaining population due to lack of numbers!
Apocalypsox
05-10-06, 18:39
Would be nice to have 30% pops, or even better 50%+ like Saturn used to have. :)
and who gonna invite the nasty old LagMonster™ with high pop. server :lol:
Fuck, it would be nice to have 20% like during Neocron 2 beta. :(
Fuck, it would be nice to have 20% like during Neocron 2 beta. :(
a nice constant 10% 24/7 would be even nice instead of 2-3% offpeak and 15-17% peak ROUGHLY
KK aren't gonna merge the servers.. at least not any time soon.
Which is why there's a group of 15-20 or so terra players now playing on mars (mars isn't 50% le'd not even 5% lol), there's currently quite a fight between the TERRAists and the rest of mars.. however there's not enough of us and we just get outnumbered by pretty much all of mars vs us heh.. we could have some real fun if everyone else from terra/merc did the same.. would be nicer if we could do it on terra, but they're not making any efforts to move =[
We are very sorry about this, but we have so many people hit by illnesses that we can not continue with a new discussion topic today, let alone observe and evaluate the discussion. We hope for your understanding!
... current state of the balancing project
At the moment we are working on the implementation of the APU/PPU changes. This part requires the heaviest changes (compared to other incomplete topics), therefore we want it tested on our internal testserver as soon as possible.
The other topics like weapons, resistences and NPC balancing are being tested and fine-tuned.
... armor and general damage model changes
Armor will be covered in the general damage model, which will be presented soon in an announcement (similarly to the skills and NPC announcements). While we are looking forward to your feedback, we have decided to combine some of the "smaller" topics due to their nature and the amount of time that has already passed.
... next discussion topic
We hope to be able to continue with the topic „Vehicle Combat“ at the beginning of next week - hopefully everyone will be fit by then.
Thx for the update JD
something nasty going around the Employee's? 8|
Get well Soon :)
Vehicle combat , Brammers will be all over that thread :p
But aslong as you make it so a few HL's or that dam Psi attack don't kill a rhino in only a few shots then maybe they will be worth the expense :)
Get well Soon :)
Same from me :D
Thanks for the update John Doe!
Thanks for the update, and yeap I'm sure I'll be over the combat vehicles! ;)
One question, is hacknet balancing discussion going to come up?
Heavyporker
15-10-06, 18:05
I've made my opinions on the combat vehicles abundantly clear.
Brammers will only be on that thread like black on a snowy field. I'll be all over that thread like a colony of flies on shit.
Apocalypsox
15-10-06, 19:35
dont forget me and Clive porker you ass =/
FIX MAI GLIDAS
I want collision damage to be a kamikaze pilot too.
i know everyones ill so does this mean the test server is coming or will it be at a later date or will it be still on time just wondering.
I've made my opinions on the combat vehicles abundantly clear.
Brammers will only be on that thread like black on a snowy field. I'll be all over that thread like a colony of flies on shit.
Black on a snowy field? Heavyporker you are talking in riddles again, speak English! :p
Black on a snowy field? Heavyporker you are talking in riddles again, speak English! :p
Yea, he puzzled me with that one, Speaking of puzzled, i just read the story lines i wrote while drunk - Lets ignore them ^^.
Anyways KK - I know ur fed up of us asking, and if you cant make the October deadline, then no worries, Least your not rushing things-
Buuuut, Any idea how long guys, im really looking forward to this beasty :)
i was looking forward to the public test server, and the publics non-theorhetical input based on experience instead of nonsensical numerics.
oh and black on a snowy field as in nowhere to be seen.
Dont know if im a nub and missed it.... but is there a test server going up or already up for the changes?
Dont know if im a nub and missed it.... but is there a test server going up or already up for the changes?
You can be a nub anyways, but nope, errr Not up yet -
Going up is more of the right words, John Doe will awaken soon, from his slumber... (Working probly), and give us news
http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.php?p=2028581&postcount=6
Dirk "John Doe" Wilhelmy will let you know all details as soon as everything is prepared.
However i think he won't let us know anything until Neptune is down.
Test Server?????
When??????
Please????
K Thxs Bye
Test Server?????
When??????
Please????
K Thxs Bye
We've already had an explanation in this thread why things may be delayed. Alot of KK were ill a couple weeks back which slowed things, its expected to see an illness spread in an office and even when everyone will have been back in top condition it'll take a few days for everyone to get back into the swing of things and the cogs of production to continue moving smoothly again, there's still 8 days of October and mid-October could be classed as anything from October 1st to October 31st if you think about it :p
Delays are always expected with any game. The announced release dates and actual release date is laughable with just about every game. A small delay was likely and this by no means suggests that KK are different than any other game team. Lets not forget that they have listened to us all about this test server and agreed to it, it'll happen soon enough. :)
What has been done to grenades? I remember hearing something about this a while ago, but i haven't heard anything since
I'm trying to think what combat topics haven't been covered in balancing. (I think they all have now)
Is it safe to assume tradeskilling will be left untouched?
Heavyporker
03-11-06, 21:00
Ah... sorry for leaving this for so long, but I'll soon remedy that.
What color do you most expect from a snowy field, and what color do you least expect from said field? That's your answer, Brammers.
I suspect that tradeskilling will be left essentially untouched, but tweaks could be pretty appreciated, especially in regards to Researching [i.e. - WHY THE HECK should high TL items take *so* long to research?!!?]
I also want to get more information about balancing, or bringing up low-level Salvaging... I mean, will it become viable? I really don't think that one should have to start off with like 75 recycle to start getting *something* from a TL2 item. It's a tragedy, that is!
Will there be more opportunities for Salvaging to figure into Neocron, like missions to salvage something special from broken items. I'm talking about like NCPD armor parts from dead Stormbots, maybe, or hovercoils from disused Hovercabs. That sort of thing! Salvaging is like the red-headed stepchild of tradeskilling! Granted, it's based off the Recycle skill, but even Recycling by itself is very underutilized in Neocron. I mean, geez, finding a researcher, constructor, repairer, or poker is one thing, but you're almost completely out of luck if you need a Recycler in off-peak hours on any server.
I also want to ask about greater opportunites for exploration in the wastelands, though I know it's not related to balancing. I'm not really talking about leveling areas... I'm talking about just going out and seeing the sights, so to speak. New chasms and caves, new mountains and oceans to explore! These mighty cliffs hem us in so!
Dribble Joy
09-11-06, 19:01
Are we going to get more discussion threads before the TS hits?
Especially with something like the way skills affect stuff. This would be integral to weapon balance. We kinda need to know where KK are taking it and to voice our opinions on it before it goes to test (unless other things are being done first and skills would come in later on).
As you certainly noticed, we have not been able to open the test server at the appointed day. This was caused by unexpected problems, thorough tests and fine-tunings, as well as the intention to deliver a package with as few bugs as possible. While we can not say when the public test server phase will start yet because we have to take care of the last required measures (changes to Neptune, character transfer, distribution of items for tests, etc.) and perform some final tests during next week – we should be able to give you a precise date for the test server at the end of next week.
Thanks for the update. Looking forward to the next one!
Thanks for the update. Personally I won't mind it being late, if you bug fixing. The less bugs, the better...and also it gives me a bit more time to sort out the THN Items DB (http://www.techhaven.org/db) for Evo2.2 :D
Dribble Joy
17-11-06, 18:02
Since things are being tweaked and finalised for the TS, what about the yet undiscussed topics?
Will they simply be added later?
Since things are being tweaked and finalised for the TS, what about the yet undiscussed topics?
Will they simply be added later?
I thought they covered them all, which one you think they haven't covered yet?
Both topics (apu + ppu and combat skill influence) are in preparation - we will go on on monday or tuesday, I think.
Dribble Joy
17-11-06, 19:16
Cheers mush.
Im sorry for being impatient. and i now the Test server is open to selected few (High GM/KK officials) -
But cant ya give us another date.
I mean, i now you had illness in the office for a week.
But its been 4 weeks since the proposed launch date,
Just a Simple
(We dunno), Sometime next month will do :)
Apocalypsox
20-11-06, 04:37
Im sorry for being impatient. and i now the Test server is open to selected few (High GM/KK officials) -
...Why isnt apoc a lead KK official yet? I could have bought stocks with the money if spent playing NC and probly had a said in this... And im waiting for the test server to reactivate and transfer warbot over to play with the nano tools :(
But i guess patience is a virtue. NCs devs dont just sit around all day eating chocolate and watching us sqirm on the forums. It will be out eventually. (I hope)
Question to dev team: I made a thread at the start of the 2.2. project asking for total resistance to each dmg type (% or armor value) to be displayed on one of the RPOS windows. Dirus liked the idea and assured me that this would be included in the project. Is this still going to be implemented?
Question for the Dev Team:
What is the situation regarding the view distance and Rifles? Is the view distance increasing via scopes only or not at all or what?
--- Note: Announcement regarding Test Server launch date was posted here ---
Thanks for the update John Doe. One question regarding the transfer (I'm guessing it's probably planned to be answered in the upcoming info, but I'll ask anyway to make sure): What items will we be able to transfer across and how will we be able to do it (ie. will any of implants / armor / quickbelt / inventory / processor (not) be transferrable)?
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