Weapon Discussion: Weapon Behavior Influence Factors

[Thanatos]

This is the final topic for the weapon discussions. As has already transpired in a few threads, we want to remove the hard caps to guarantee that skill increases always provide an improvement. Therefore the skill evaluation has been changed – this includes all calculations, like for example the calculation of the health and stamina pools. However, the biggest effects appear in the combat skill calculations, which we will explain in more detail towards the end of this document.

Calculation of player abilities
In general there is always a base skill value that is used to create a modification factor. Below this base value, the gains from raising the skill will behave fairly linearly. Once the base value is reached, the modification factor lies at around 0.70 (which corresponds to a percentage of 70%) - the runner can only reach 100% or more when the base value has been passed. The increase is designed in a way that skill investments are only really sensible to a certain degree – while the player abilities still increase, the increase itself becomes smaller.

For the calculations of health values, stamina or run speed, this base value is the same for all classes. Therefore these areas are balanced through the number of skill points available to the particular classes.

Special rules for the Hacknet:
For the Hacknet, respectively the FullHacker, there are special calculations for skills and subskills – however the are limited to the Hacknet!

Health, Stamina and Hacknet Energy
These values are based on the skills Intelligence, Hacking, as well as Body Health (Healthpool), Endurance (Stamina) and Hightech Combat (Hacknet Energy).

A new addition is the way resistances are evaluated in the Hacknet. As there are only two damage types present here, there are also only two different resistance evaluations:
- Damage type Energy: Intelligence, Hacking and Resist Energy
- Damage type X-Ray: Intelligence, Hacking and Resist X-Ray

Evaluation of combat relevant skills
For the evaluation of combat relevant skills, the base value is derived from the properties of the respective weapon (usually corresponds to the TechLevel). Therefore a runner’s influence on a weapon always depends on the weapon and is not always the same. The skills are evaluated with the base skill values and multiplied with the condition in the weapon categories damage, frequency, handling and range (which has actually always been that way).

The balancing concept always assumes that a weapon has 100 percent in its conditions (i.e. damage), which means that weapons with better values will also perform better by itself. The weapon behavior in certain areas can also be improved by increasing the corresponding subskills.

The freedom of skill setup choices played an important role regarding these changes – this freedom is now larger than before. However, we could not allow limitless increases in all areas – the two examples are following:

Range:
Currently, the increase in range is possible up to around 120-130 percent. As we consider the balancing of ranges a very important factor in the general balance, we have decided to introduce this cap. Reasons for this are for example normal rifles or cannons that already have a very high range.

Frequency:
The firing frequency has a fixed and a variable part. A weapon can only be improved up to a fixed frequency – however the variable part is usually fairly large, still making the frequency improvement attractive (after all, a better frequency means a higher damage output over time).

List of the particular influence factors:
After presenting the basics, we will move on to present the individual evaluations. In general, the individual areas have been set like this:
- Damage: focus on combat skill, small influence from weapon knowledge
- Aim speed: combat skill and weapon knowledge are equal
- Aim precision: combat skill and weapon knowledge are equal
- Frequency: focus on weapon knowledge, medium influence from weapon skill
- Range: focus on weapon knowledge, medium influence from weapon skill
- Handling: medium influence from combat skill, weapon knowledge and agility (AGL)

Weapon knowledge designates the subskills „Weapon Lore“ (WEP) and „Hightech Combat“ (T-C) – if it is a hightech weapon. The subskill „Agility“ (AGL) influences the handling, as it helps compensate a possible recoil.

We have decided to ignore main skills for weapon behavior, as these are based on experience points (XP) – only subskills allow a real choice.

Even in the past it was possible to use weighting that went above 100 percent – we have used this possibility for hightech weapons. We are using 110% in the areas aim speed, aim precision and handling. Therefore runners that are specialized in hightech weapons have a small advantage in damage (see bonus system) and in the areas mentioned above – this should compensate for the increased skill point requirements.

Special weapon properties:
All weapons in Neocron have the following properties, which are naturally used in the calculations – you can see these values in the HUD:
- Damage: 0 – 120 %
- Frequency: 0 – 120 %
- Handling: 0 – 120 %
- Range: 0 – 120 %

These condition values are used in the appropriate calculations and are not mentioned specifically.

Category: Melee Combat (M-C)

Lowtech Melee Combat:
Damage (100): Base 10 %, M-C 60 %, WEP 10 %, ATL 20 %
Frequency (100): Base 10 %, M-C 30 %, WEP 40 %, END 20 %
Handling (100): Base 10 %, M-C 20 %, WEP 40 %, AGL 30 %

Hightech Melee Combat:
Damage (100): Base 10 %, M-C 60 %, WEP 10 %, ATL 20 %
Frequency (100): Base 20 %, M-C 20 %, WEP 20 %, T-C 20 %, END 20 %
Handling (110): Base 20 %, M-C 20 %, WEP 20 %, T-C 20 %, AGL 30 %


Category: Pistol Combat (P-C)

Lowtech Pistol Combat:
Damage (100): Base 10 %, P-C 70 %, WEP 20 %
Aim Speed (100): Base 20 %, P-C 40 %, WEP 40 %
Aim Precision (100): Base 20 %, P-C 40 %, WEP 40 %
Frequency (100): Base 10 %, P-C 40 %, WEP 50 %
Range (100): Base 10 %, P-C 20 %, WEP 70 %
Handling (100): Base 10 %, P-C 30 %, WEP 40 %, AGL 20 %

Hightech Pistol Combat:
Damage (100): Base 10 %, P-C 70 %, WEP 20 %
Aim Speed (110): Base 30 %, P-C 40 %, T-C 20 %, WEP 20 %
Aim Precision (110): Base 30 %, P-C 40 %, T-C 20 %, WEP 20 %
Frequency (100): Base 20 %, P-C 30 %, T-C 30 %, WEP 20 %
Range (100): Base 20 %, P-C 20 %, T-C 30 %, WEP 30 %
Handling (110): Base 20 %, P-C 30 %, T-C 20 %, WEP 20 %, AGL 20 %


Category: Rifle Combat (R-C)

Lowtech Rifle Combat:
Damage (100): Base 10 %, R-C 70 %, WEP 20 %
Aim Speed (100): Base 20 %, R-C 40 %, WEP 40 %
Aim Precision (100): Base 20 %, R-C 40 %, WEP 40 %
Frequency (100): Base 10 %, R-C 40 %, WEP 50 %
Range (100): Base 10 %, R-C 20 %, WEP 70 %
Handling (100): Base 10 %, R-C 30 %, WEP 35 %, AGL 25 %

Hightech Rifle Combat:
Damage (100): Base 10 %, R-C 70 %, WEP 20 %
Aim Speed (110): Base 30 %, R-C 40 %, T-C 20 %, WEP 20 %
Aim Precision (110): Base 30 %, R-C 40 %, T-C 20 %, WEP 20 %
Frequency (100): Base 20 %, R-C 30 %, T-C 30 %, WEP 20 %
Range (100): Base 20 %, R-C 20 %, T-C 30 %, WEP 30 %
Handling (110): Base 20 %, R-C 30 %, T-C 20 %, WEP 20 %, AGL 20 %


Category: Heavy Combat (H-C)

Lowtech Heavy Combat:
Damage (100): Base 10 %, H-C 70 %, WEP 20 %
Aim Speed (100): Base 20 %, H-C 40 %, WEP 40 %
Aim Precision (100): Base 20 %, H-C 40 %, WEP 40 %
Frequency (100): Base 10 %, H-C 40 %, WEP 50 %
Range (100): Base 10 %, H-C 20 %, WEP 70 %
Handling (100): Base 10 %, H-C 30 %, WEP 30 %, AGL 30 %

Hightech Heavy Combat:
Damage (100): Base 10 %, H-C 70 %, WEP 20 %
Aim Speed (110): Base 30 %, H-C 40 %, T-C 20 %, WEP 20 %
Aim Precision (110): Base 30 %, H-C 40 %, T-C 20 %, WEP 20 %
Frequency (100): Base 20 %, H-C 30 %, T-C 30 %, WEP 20 %
Range (100): Base 20 %, H-C 20 %, T-C 30 %, WEP 30 %
Handling (110): Base 20 %, H-C 30 %, T-C 20 %, WEP 20 %, AGL 20 %


Category: PSI Combat (APU)
Damage (100): Base 10 %, APU 70 %, FCS 20 %
Aim Speed (100): Base 20 %, APU 40 %, FCS 30 %, PPW 10
Aim Precision (100): Base 20 %, APU 40 %, FCS 30 %, PPW 10
Frequency (100): Base 10 %, APU 30 %, FCS 40 %, PPW 20
Range (100): Base 10 %, APU 20 %, FCS 40 %, PPW 30
Handling (100): Base 10 %, APU 20 %, FCS 40 %, PSU 30 %


Category: PSI Support (PPU)
Damage (100): Base 10 %, PPU 70 %, FCS 20 %
Frequency (100): Base 10 %, PPU 30 %, FCS 40 %, PPW 20
Range (100): Base 10 %, PPU 20 %, FCS 40 %, PPW 30
Handling (100): Base 10 %, PPU 20 %, FCS 40 %, PSU 30 %


Category: Drone Combat (RCL)
Damage (100): Base 10 %, RCL 70 %, T-C 10 %, WPW 10 %
Aim Speed (100): Base 20 %, RCL 40 %, T-C 20 %, WPW 20 %
Aim Precision (100): Base 20 %, RCL 40 %, T-C 20 %, WPW 20 %
Frequency (100): Base 10 %, RCL 30 %, T-C 40 %, WPW 20 %
Range (100): Base 10 %, RCL 20 %, T-C 40 %, WPW 30 %
Handling (100): Base 10 %, RCL 30 %, T-C 30 %, WPW 30 %


Category: Hacknet Combat and Hacknet Support (HCK)
Damage (100): Base 10 %, HCK 70 %, T-C 20 %
Aim Speed (100): Base 20 %, HCK 40 %, T-C 40 %
Aim Precision (100): Base 20 %, HCK 40 %, T-C 40 %
Frequency (100): Base 10 %, HCK 40 %, T-C 50 %
Range (100): Base 10 %, HCK 30 %, T-C 60 %
Handling (100): Base 10 %, HCK 40 %, T-C 50 %

As you have probably noticed, these values only differ slightly. We have tried to find a setting for each category that should guarantee a maximum of equality, as we haven’t found any reason to give preferential treatment to any class or to place somebody at a disadvantage.

[Kierz]

Category: Melee Combat (M-C)

Lowtech Melee Combat:
Damage (100): Base 10 %, M-C 60 %, WEP 10 %, ATL 20 %
Frequency (100): Base 10 %, M-C 30 %, WEP 40 %, END 20 %
Handling (100): Base 10 %, M-C 20 %, WEP 40 %, AGL 30 %

Hightech Melee Combat:
Damage (100): Base 10 %, M-C 60 %, WEP 10 %, ATL 20 %
Frequency (100): Base 20 %, M-C 20 %, WEP 20 %, T-C 20 %, END 20 %
Handling (110): Base 20 %, M-C 20 %, WEP 20 %, T-C 20 %, AGL 30 %melee's need to spec weap now? spose that's your way of wasting our extra int....

[giga191]

<3 the removal of caps

[Zheo]

Sounds good, very complex in my sleep deprived state tbh. I will see how it works out on the test server, kinda glad melee need to spec wpl again, seemed silly them not having it, after all mc weapons are still weapons! I hope that with the new subskil "Resist Piercing" and the changes a tank can still cap their weapons without having to spec 250 hc or something silly.

Edit: What about PA4? Will Tanks, Spies, & Monks beable to use it now? I mean without 5 +5str/dex/psi, imps and 3 drugs!?

[GOD OF HELL]

I don't mind having different % affect the overall use of each weapon and the different state categories. I think it is seems VERY nice on paper. I just want to see if it will be actually useful once implimented. I have seeen a lot of changes in this game that didn't help, a lot that had potential, and some that actually worked.

The only problem I have now is the percentage KK left out. I have about a 0.5 to 1 second lag when it comes to FPS. Now, I thought MAYBE it was just me, I just sucked that much. Then I thought it was because I wasn't capping the percentages on weapons. Then last, I thought maybe the memory problem was why I couldn't meet the speed of other players.

It finally hit me after I was able to fix my memory by uninstalling a few games, this server is still hosted on Germany. I live in America. I did frap it the other night to make sure, and it was true. If your american, on a CABLE internet speed, on a quick processor and decent video card, it doesn't matter. From fraps I still got that lag and I couldn't hit much because, if you know pvp, 0.5 seconds to 1 second of lag often means you will miss a lot more, thus, why you have mostly Europeans who pvp at peak hours, not on American times. PvP pisses me off now, since I know even with the right % I will still be 2nd rate.

[Snedex]

Edit: What about PA4? Will Tanks, Spies, & Monks be able to use it now? I mean without 5 +5str/dex/psi, imps and 3 drugs!?

same question .. impossible and completely pointless unless you want to be a gimped monk/tank/spy idling in th poping drugs every 2 mins just to keep it on?

[Forget My Name]

Will WOC armor just still be a clone of PA3 or will it add anything new? Because as of now, PA4 is useless and WOC armor is just for show.

-edit-


Also, you said that this new skill system allows for a wider range skills, but seriously, is this game still about specialization, because if it is, what do you mean by players will have more breathing room with skills?

[Dogface]

Wow, someone call DJ an ambulance in advance, he's going to have a heart attack when he sees the removal of weapon caps :p

Slightly disappointed with melee having to use weapon lore, although like above said, it's something viable to do with the extra int points.

I'm also very interested in agility and TC affecting weapons now too, this all looks very nice on paper - looking foward to testing it all out :D

[GOD OF HELL]

Wow, someone call DJ an ambulance in advance, he's going to have a heart attack when he sees the removal of weapon caps :p ....

I have my money on the same thing. He will probably make about 2-3 complaints and give about 5-6 ways to improve the changes. Just stop before you even think about starting DJ........ seriously.

[Safunte]

goodbye pes =)
hello monks... (adding damage based on a percent of the original damage for "overcapping". way to make monks overpowered again.)

and... goodbye neocron.... nothings staying the same.
so much for "balancing"... getting more than a little carried away imo, for reakktors sake i hope they stop making it more complicated and start remembering its supposed to still be the same game.


The balancing concept always assumes that a weapon has 100 percent in its conditions (i.e. damage), which means that weapons with better values will also perform better by itself. The weapon behavior in certain areas can also be improved by increasing the corresponding subskills.

Please seriously consider this proposition.

Being stated that items have no cap, so will obviously perform better with better stats, lift the build cap. allow stats to reach 120 as is the case with rares... obviously make it more difficult if you can and still the same lesser slot chance.
This way, non-rare setups (high defense low offense or mid and mid) can compete equally.

[Forget My Name]

just give it a shot in the test server.

You might see that since APU monks will have to aim like anyone else, maybe the monk population will drop as all the no pvp skill monk users we have now will be forced to find another character to use.

And yes, something KK never realizes or cares to admit, but this game is NOT a sci fi game. When the game has been dominated by wizards casting spells since 2003, the sci fi edge lost its touch.

Sure, we toted the game at one time as being "no elves" but everyone seems to forget that we still use magic and wizards.

I mean, look at it, what are the most controversial items in the game? Monks, which are wizards, and the Xbow, which is a fantasy item itself!

hopefully, this game will become sci fi once again, and i hope everyone gives it one last chance in the test server to see how things come along.

[Safunte]

you might see that the speed at which apus will be aiming is rediculous, and that it might as well not even be there.

[giga191]

you might see that the speed at which apus will be aiming is rediculous, and that it might as well not even be there.It does make a difference. You can't just skim your crosshair over players for 0.1 seconds now

[Safunte]

you're right, you wont be able to.
but you can do that, and then after that, you can do it again and it'll work the same.

1 less hit i guess

AND BACK TO THE MAIN POINT OF MY POST

take away cst caps so taht other setups will be viable with non-rares/epic/woc.

[Dribble Joy]

This is the final topic for the weapon discussions. As has already transpired in a few threads, we want to remove the hard caps to guarantee that skill increases always provide an improvement.
Spaff.

Special rules for the Hacknet:
For the Hacknet, respectively the FullHacker, there are special calculations for skills and subskills – however the are limited to the Hacknet!

Health, Stamina and Hacknet Energy
These values are based on the skills Intelligence, Hacking, as well as Body Health (Healthpool), Endurance (Stamina) and Hightech Combat (Hacknet Energy).

A new addition is the way resistances are evaluated in the Hacknet. As there are only two damage types present here, there are also only two different resistance evaluations:
- Damage type Energy: Intelligence, Hacking and Resist Energy
- Damage type X-Ray: Intelligence, Hacking and Resist X-Ray
All seems good, HN players can choose between resists and offencive powers.

List of the particular influence factors:
After presenting the basics, we will move on to present the individual evaluations. In general, the individual areas have been set like this:
- Damage: focus on combat skill, small influence from weapon knowledge
- Aim speed: combat skill and weapon knowledge are equal
- Aim precision: combat skill and weapon knowledge are equal
- Frequency: focus on weapon knowledge, medium influence from weapon skill
- Range: focus on weapon knowledge, medium influence from weapon skill
- Handling: medium influence from combat skill, weapon knowledge and agility (AGL)
This has some seriously bad repercussions. More in a bit...

Weapon knowledge designates the subskills „Weapon Lore“ (WEP) and „Hightech Combat“ (T-C) – if it is a hightech weapon. The subskill „Agility“ (AGL) influences the handling, as it helps compensate a possible recoil.
Seems reasonable.

We have decided to ignore main skills for weapon behavior, as these are based on experience points (XP) – only subskills allow a real choice.
Unsure about this. If the hard caps are removed then the use of lower tl weapons with high skilling would mean less requirement in the main stat req and thus higer skilling in something such as str (current case in point the xbow).

Even in the past it was possible to use weighting that went above 100 percent – we have used this possibility for hightech weapons. We are using 110% in the areas aim speed, aim precision and handling. Therefore runners that are specialized in hightech weapons have a small advantage in damage (see bonus system) and in the areas mentioned above – this should compensate for the increased skill point requirements.
All appears OK.


Category: Pistol Combat (P-C)

Lowtech Pistol Combat:
Damage (100): Base 10 %, P-C 70 %, WEP 20 %
Aim Speed (100): Base 20 %, P-C 40 %, WEP 40 %
Aim Precision (100): Base 20 %, P-C 40 %, WEP 40 %
Frequency (100): Base 10 %, P-C 40 %, WEP 50 %
Range (100): Base 10 %, P-C 20 %, WEP 70 %
Handling (100): Base 10 %, P-C 30 %, WEP 40 %, AGL 20 %

Hightech Pistol Combat:
Damage (100): Base 10 %, P-C 70 %, WEP 20 %
Aim Speed (110): Base 30 %, P-C 40 %, T-C 20 %, WEP 20 %
Aim Precision (110): Base 30 %, P-C 40 %, T-C 20 %, WEP 20 %
Frequency (100): Base 20 %, P-C 30 %, T-C 30 %, WEP 20 %
Range (100): Base 20 %, P-C 20 %, T-C 30 %, WEP 30 %
Handling (110): Base 20 %, P-C 30 %, T-C 20 %, WEP 20 %, AGL 20 %


Category: Rifle Combat (R-C)

Lowtech Rifle Combat:
Damage (100): Base 10 %, R-C 70 %, WEP 20 %
Aim Speed (100): Base 20 %, R-C 40 %, WEP 40 %
Aim Precision (100): Base 20 %, R-C 40 %, WEP 40 %
Frequency (100): Base 10 %, R-C 40 %, WEP 50 %
Range (100): Base 10 %, R-C 20 %, WEP 70 %
Handling (100): Base 10 %, R-C 30 %, WEP 35 %, AGL 25 %

Hightech Rifle Combat:
Damage (100): Base 10 %, R-C 70 %, WEP 20 %
Aim Speed (110): Base 30 %, R-C 40 %, T-C 20 %, WEP 20 %
Aim Precision (110): Base 30 %, R-C 40 %, T-C 20 %, WEP 20 %
Frequency (100): Base 20 %, R-C 30 %, T-C 30 %, WEP 20 %
Range (100): Base 20 %, R-C 20 %, T-C 30 %, WEP 30 %
Handling (110): Base 20 %, R-C 30 %, T-C 20 %, WEP 20 %, AGL 20 %
A big hairy nono. This is EXACTLY what I was affraid would happen.

If wep remains as a pistol (or even rifle) dmg and freq affector, then you will be forcing players to fully spec int into wep.
If a pistol has a small max range, but is forced to spec as much overall skills as a rifler, what advantage does he then get?

My suggestion is that freq should maintain it's freq cap, and be reasonably easy to get to. For several reasons.

Simplicity. Balancing dmg and freq together will be more complex than dmg alone.

Mechanincs: The engine, as seen with the introduction of the pulse laser weapons, has issues with high burst rates. Better to remove this potential danger alltogether.

Skill based but fair: This is a skill based by supposedly fair game. High burst rate setups may be equal to a low freq/high defence setup, but players with higher skill can handle high freq weapons better than a low skill player. Case in point was the kami setups in NC1. Vaguely viable, but you had to be top notch to make use of them (which I didn't really).

For damage. Make it affected by the combat skill alone, therefore that alone is the means by which the offence postition of a setup is situated.
It would allow variation of setups but not cause issues with wep skilling.

For range, my opinion is that range should be affected by wep equally on all weapon systems.
As I've said before, to me, range is like the 'area of influence'. The actual offence/defence power of all weapon systems should be equal at close range. Extra range would then be expressed as additional skilling, but the base power of a setup would not vary.

Pistols have a hard cap to their range, so could only take it to a cirtain skilling of wep. A Rifler with the same skilling in RC as PC, Dex, etc. on an equal tl weapon, and the same wep skilling should (imo) get the same range (plus the weapon system modifiers). But they would have the capacity to spec further to increase beyond it.
So a shotgun user could spec the same wep as a pistoler of the same tl, get the same range, the same dmg/time, same defences and be able to spec int in other areas.

As for melee, they have 'no range' thus I don't think they should require any wep at all.

Wow, someone call DJ an ambulance in advance, he's going to have a heart attack when he sees the removal of weapon caps :p
I was very exited indeed, but as it happens my fear of what they would do has come about.

I'm all for specialisation, but pseudo-forced specialisation I am not.

[jini]

Questions Thanatos:
You say, once base value is reached ( i assume this is a number for the relevant skill p-c for example) then this will yield some 70% to this particular skill, and will continue to increase as you invest more.

so if I understood this correct, say for
Hightech Pistol Combat:
Damage (100): Base 10 %, P-C 70 %, WEP 20 %

1. The SECRET base value is set by YOU @ 15 p-c. Correct?
2. To reach this I will need to invest 150(15%) in p-c Correct?
3. However if i reach only 15, then I will get ONLY 70% of my pistol's damage, if that pistol had artifact damage stat. Correct?

Please DJ dont try to clarify this :p
However Giga, is free to help...

Edit: Ah, I just noticed that you base those on 100% weapon stats, therefore an artifact weapon will get a 20% bonus, besides all other bonuses from t-c, epics, Woc etc... pretty elaborate tbh :rolleyes: but if what I guess is true, it will lead to truly distinctive setups, and I wonder how are you gonna balance all these parameters...

[GOD OF HELL]

...Please DJ dont try to clarify this :p
However Giga, is free to help...

DJ, don't clarify what he is asking. I want you to clarify what you were saying I read what you said didn't understand much at all, lol. Explain better kid....

A big hairy nono. This is EXACTLY what I was affraid would happen.
Doesn't seem too bad to me mate. How was changes "Exactly" what you thought would happen?

If wep remains as a pistol (or even rifle) dmg and freq affector, then you will be forcing players to fully spec int into wep.
If a pistol has a small max range, but is forced to spec as much overall skills as a rifler, what advantage does he then get?
He probably gets a lot quicker aiming or more damage from range...suprised?
My suggestion is that freq should maintain it's freq cap, and be reasonably easy to get to. For several reasons.
I don't like seeing freq. being capped 267%. 267% what? Of the base freq? I think it should not have a cap.
Simplicity. Balancing dmg and freq together will be more complex than dmg alone.
Well, why not just play around? I think it is a very inventive idea, complexity is probably what keeps US around, and made the kiddos quit right away.
Mechanincs: The engine, as seen with the introduction of the pulse laser weapons, has issues with high burst rates. Better to remove this potential danger alltogether.
Burst should not be regulated to always do the same burst amount/same speed, subskill should affect this.
Skill based but fair: This is a skill based by supposedly fair game. High burst rate setups may be equal to a low freq/high defence setup, but players with higher skill can handle high freq weapons better than a low skill player. Case in point was the kami setups in NC1. Vaguely viable, but you had to be top notch to make use of them (which I didn't really).
Most pvpers will twik the gear to do max damage vs. less damage. Higher freq will always yield more damage then lower freq. Only hardcore solo pve'ers will give up freq for more defense.
For damage. Make it affected by the combat skill alone, therefore that alone is the means by which the offence postition of a setup is situated.
It would allow variation of setups but not cause issues with wep skilling.
Damage should NEVER be based on the combat skill alone. It should have a mix of sub skills to people don't skill 100% something. Only problem would be less tradeskillers and less implanters maybe.
For range, my opinion is that range should be affected by wep equally on all weapon systems.
As I've said before, to me, range is like the 'area of influence'. The actual offence/defence power of all weapon systems should be equal at close range. Extra range would then be expressed as additional skilling, but the base power of a setup would not vary.
You mean that all weapons will be influenced by skilling the same amount, just the base power of weapons would be different?
Pistols have a hard cap to their range, so could only take it to a cirtain skilling of wep. A Rifler with the same skilling in RC as PC, Dex, etc. on an equal tl weapon, and the same wep skilling should (imo) get the same range (plus the weapon system modifiers). But they would have the capacity to spec further to increase beyond it.
So a shotgun user could spec the same wep as a pistoler of the same tl, get the same range, the same dmg/time, same defences and be able to spec int in other areas.
I don't think we should have pistols and rifles that are alike. They should do different damage, have different freq., and have different range. Rifles are more for ranged users, aim quicker, and cause slower movement in pvp. Pistols are short range, aim slower, but are quick for pvp movement. It equals out there the aim and movement affect for pvp.
As for melee, they have 'no range' thus I don't think they should require any wep at all. Tanks usually are hackers. And I think with the loss of PSI, and with 30 points of INT, they could still be hackers with the extra 10 levels.

[jini]

DJ, don't clarify what he is asking. I want you to clarify what you were saying and the things you didn't feel like going into detail about. For the most part I didn't see any clarity in what you said DJ. I read what you said, read it again, and didn't understand reall much at all, lol. Explain better kid.
YOU are asking from DJ to explain????!!!111 get ready for a series of integrals then for adding 1+2 :rolleyes:
for complex equations like y=x+3 we use the more precise differential equations, while for percentages we retreat to odds theory (if thats how its called :p)

[giga191]

I'm not going to explain anything, nor am I going to try to comprehend what effect all those numbers will have. @ devs: are these Dirus's numbers?

[Genji]

T-C is going to be more then just a req to use a hightech weapon? This will make my brain hurt.
Also, if you're going to rework the way skills work everyone should have there points cleared to respec instead of making every single person LOM when the changes are made.

[jini]

Ok, tbh there is only one question that needs to be answered: ARE pes gonna get 2nd generation (a bit before the woc req.) crossbow? that is when it used to kill a tank in 3 shots or no? :p

[Brammers]

Category: Drone Combat (RCL)
Damage (100): Base 10 %, RCL 70 %, T-C 10 %, WPW 10 %
Aim Speed (100): Base 20 %, RCL 40 %, T-C 20 %, WPW 20 %
Aim Precision (100): Base 20 %, RCL 40 %, T-C 20 %, WPW 20 %
Frequency (100): Base 10 %, RCL 30 %, T-C 40 %, WPW 20 %
Range (100): Base 10 %, RCL 20 %, T-C 40 %, WPW 30 %
Handling (100): Base 10 %, RCL 30 %, T-C 30 %, WPW 30 %


Wow, interesting. Currently WPW has about a 70% influence on range, now a lot of that skill is shifted to T-C in DEX. Looks like Droners will be able to spec less WPW for capping drones.

[jini]

Wow, interesting. Currently WPW has about a 70% influence on range, now a lot of that skill is shifted to T-C in DEX. Looks like Droners will be able to spec less WPW for capping drones.
Yes if you were playing the game today with these formulas, but no if they readjust every weapon's "envelope", which i bet they have already done...

[jini]

I'm not going to explain anything, nor am I going to try to comprehend what effect all those numbers will have. @ devs: are these Dirus's numbers?
Basically what he says, Giga, is that there will be a secret number (called Base) that, when reached will give 70% of said skill. We wont be able to find this number easily, besides it wont matter much since you need to invest in other areas as well, which is something that already existed. But contrary to what we have now, there will be no upper theoretical limit to a guns power, except the practical max free skill point according to your char. For a spy for example some 500ish in Dex.

From what I can understand, Artifact damage is a lot more important in a gun now, way more than frequency for example.

[silent000]

Basically what he says, Giga, is that there will be a secret number (called Base) that, when reached will give 70% of said skill. We wont be able to find this number easily, besides it wont matter much since you need to invest in other areas as well, which is something that already existed. But contrary to what we have now, there will be no upper theoretical limit to a guns power, except the practical max free skill point according to your char. For a spy for example some 500ish in Dex.

From what I can understand, Artifact damage is a lot more important in a gun now, way more than frequency for example.

Loving my 105 dmg / 96 freq xbow ;)

Im actually rele excited about this balanacing now i have always wanted to see everyone with different setups :D shud b good fun

[giga191]

Basically what he says, Giga, is that there will be a secret number (called Base) I didn't mean just base, I mean all the %s in general. They've changed almost all the factors that affect balance so trying to comprehend what all these numbers and changes mean when all put together is very hard. I also think it's impossible as we haven't been told any implant or armor changes. This is why we need the test server. Both to re-learn how to make setups and to see if it works

[Dribble Joy]

Doesn't seem too bad to me mate. How was changes "Exactly" what you thought would happen?
By keeping wep as a factor in dmg (as in dmg/time).

He probably gets a lot quicker aiming or more damage from range...suprised?
Not my point.
Will they balance pistols and rifles assuming both spec all/near all int points in wep?
If they do, what advantage will pistols hold over rifles? More dmg/time? If so then rifles will be seriously underpowered in nearly all encounters.

I don't like seeing freq. being capped 267%. 267% what? Of the base freq? I think it should not have a cap.
What's this 267% business?

Well, why not just play around? I think it is a very inventive idea, complexity is probably what keeps US around, and made the kiddos quit right away.
True, it's not the most important factor.

Burst should not be regulated to always do the same burst amount/same speed, subskill should affect this.
If you haven't noticed, most weapons don't actualy run at 370 rpm, 185 rpm or 170 rpm etc. They run at a burst frequency, with a number of shots per burst.
Pistols for example have a current burst cap of about 92.5 rpm. Judge, exec and rayguns have a freq cap of 185, with a two shot burst. The libby and slasher have 370 with a 4 shot burst. Wyatt has a single shot burst.

Anyway, giving all players the same burst freq to work with on each weapon (not saying all weapons should have the same burst freq), be it on a high defence high setup or a high offence slasher setup would mean a level playing field for PvP for people of all levels of skill.

Damage should NEVER be based on the combat skill alone. It should have a mix of sub skills to people don't skill 100% something.
Why not?
I doubt people will spec 100% in their combat skill, because there are other important factors in those main skills that need attention, like TC, AGL, FOR, resist pierce, MST or PPW.
In NC1 we had something akin to an open ended system, except freq was open, dmg wasn't. Using pistols as an example, dmg was easy to reach cap on, but wep did not affect freq. Variation in setups was still possible as only PC affected it. You could have a ppr or a distance 3, more defence or more offence, and balance was reasonably met with either.
What I was hoping for is the same, but with dmg as the modified factor. Variation would still be possible and players would not be forced into giving up secondary skills.

Only problem would be less tradeskillers and less implanters maybe.
Exactly, how many poking PEs or hacking PEs will we see after the changes?
How many hacking Spies?
Are we going to have to bring pure hackers to OPs and hunting because the combat guys refuse to loose any wep?

You mean that all weapons will be influenced by skilling the same amount, just the base power of weapons would be different?
Essentially yes.

I don't think we should have pistols and rifles that are alike.
Why? If a player likes a termi, but want something more of the playstyle and addtitional skill prospects of a pistoler, why shouldn't he be allowed to?
Or a Painy user who wants to sacrifice some of his range for hacking or whatever?

They should do different damage, have different freq., and have different range. Rifles are more for ranged users, aim quicker, and cause slower movement in pvp. Pistols are short range, aim slower, but are quick for pvp movement. It equals out there the aim and movement affect for pvp.

I'm not talking about making pistols and rifles the same in dmg, freq etc. Only the range system.

Tanks usually are hackers. And I think with the loss of PSI, and with 30 points of INT, they could still be hackers with the extra 10 levels.
Yes, but they won't have any hacking will they.
(btw, they are getting 25 int, 75 dex, not 30 int)

[jini]

I didn't mean just base, I mean all the %s in general. They've changed almost all the factors that affect balance so trying to comprehend what all these numbers and changes mean when all put together is very hard. I also think it's impossible as we haven't been told any implant or armor changes. This is why we need the test server. Both to re-learn how to make setups and to see if it works
It is not a problem for you. It is a problem for them and balance though.
All you have to do is to set priorities, and try to reach the higher the main skills is possible, something you already did that is. For instance for you and your skills, you need a highly offensive character.
The "base" modifier is what will create very personal setups, along with the upper limits. Ah, and we must see the rest of the equations in terms of armour and resists

[Dribble Joy]

I'm still a bit fuzzy on this base thing. Is is an inherant weapon characteristic? Affected by TL? Level or main stat?
Or have I missed something?

[Kierz]

(btw, they are getting 25 int, 75 dex, not 30 int)just wondering.. where have KK said it's gonna be 25/75 or 30 int.... i'm still hoping it's 80 dex so pistol/rifle tanks are semi viable (why shouldn't they be)

[Dribble Joy]

It's somewhere, not sure exactly.

Btw. PA is going to have to be rethought. Currently the skill system means it's not allways the best choice, but with the new one the offence bonus far out weighs the higher defences armours like viper or titan provide.

I'd like it to be like another imp, a choice in the offence/defence balance of your setup.
As per this (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=135901) thread.

[Zheo]

Anyone question that came to mind is;

Are there going to be any new weapons say? WOC HC weapons? Or just more rares? It would be nice to see some new weapons, also will we get imput on them?

[Dogface]

Who said anything about new weapons?

[Dribble Joy]

The move to TC affecting high techs/high techs getting a dmg bonus means that it's now possible to have high tl low tech weapons. So we might well get a new range of them.
Rare gat pistol ftw.

[John Doe]

Sorry - but I'm really busy to hold our deadline ...

Weapon Lore was allready an influence of P-C, R-C, H-C for the damage - and it is smaller than on retail (it was up to 35 % for H-C). We've only add this to M-C.

We've separated the LowTech- and the HighTech-Line of weapons to give T-C Runners a real benefit.

The influence dependent on the WeponLevel is still the same - but without hard caps. Try it on the testserver! There are lots of LoMs to find it out (without disadvantages).

What is the question about the "Base-Thing"? With the base-value (between 0 and 30 %) you get a guaranteed base-influence! For example (theoretical) if you cheat the use-restrictions of your weapon and have no relevant skillpoints you will get this value in any case!

What we've changed is the following:
- hard caps removed
- weighting changed
- separated LowTech/HighTech
- tried to find a fair setup for every combat orientation

The only thing I really unsure about is a really short range if you ignore the range-skills completely - the other things works good. But we will see soon :D

Oh - and yes to new weapons (and implants, armors) ...

[Dribble Joy]

That's the base thing cleared up, cheers mush.

Regarding the weapon lore, I'd just like it such that the influence on dmg/time (be it dmg and freq varying, or just dmg), be similar to that in NC1 and not involve wep.

[Kierz]

just wondering but if i plan on ignoring weap lore on my mc char what would actually get effected.. like chars with reticles notice it by the reticle closing really slow, with mc effecting damage/freq (only 2 factors in mc really - not sure why you listed handling) it wouldn't really notice?

generally i'm really not sure i like weap/tc effecting damage especially in t-c's case.. really what you're doing is giving us 3 main stats we have to spec, and they basicly all do the same thing? cept tc which does the same thing + allows tech weapons/tools

[Kierz]

I was just playing around with the numbers to what i would set them to and added why where needed, i know this post is probably pointless if you've made your minds up but it's still feedback :p

edit/ i would have made this an edit of the previous post if i planned on posting this (i was just playing around with the numbers in a quote from the original post) plus i expected someone would post between =]


Category: Melee Combat (M-C)
Damage (100): Base 40 %, M-C 60 % damage should always be one stat and a large part covered by the base
Frequency (100): Base 10 %, M-C 30 %, ATH 60 % frequency should always be mostly 2ndary stat

Category: Pistol Combat (P-C)
Damage (100): Base 40 %, P-C 60 %
Aim Speed (100): Base 40 %, P-C 40 %, WEP 20 % weapons should always at least have bareable aim and i don't think overskilling wep should make it close extra fast
Aim Precision (100): Base 40 %, P-C 30 %, WEP 30 % same as speed but p-c shouldn't have as big an influence
Frequency (100): Base 20 %, P-C 30 %, WEP 50 % having frequency as the main reason to overspec wep gives variaty for people who can/try to hit shots constantly
Range (100): Base 10 %, P-C 20 %, WEP 70 % wep should also control range
Handling (100): Base 10 %, P-C 30 %, WEP 40 %, 20% AGL

Category: Rifle Combat (R-C)
Damage (100): Base 40 %, R-C 60 %
Aim Speed (100): Base 50 %, R-C 20 %, WEP 30 %
Aim Precision (100): Base 50 %, R-C 20 %, WEP 30 % rifles by their definition should always have high precision and aiming speed
Frequency (100): Base 30 %, R-C 20 %, WEP 50 % again lore should be the main influence, however the base speed of rifles should be higher as rifles are more consistant (especially with frequent reloading)
Range (100): Base 10 %, R-C 20 %, WEP 70 %
Handling (100): Base 10 %, R-C 50 %, WEP 40 % not sure why movement should have much of an influnce on rifles (typically stationary)

Category: Heavy Combat (H-C)
Damage (100): Base 50 %, H-C 50 % can't not hurt :p
Aim Speed (100): Base 30 %, H-C 40 %, WEP 30 % base aim speed should always be fairly decent
Aim Precision (100): Base 20 %, H-C 60 %, WEP 20 %
Frequency (100): Base 30 %, H-C 20 %, WEP 50 % due to how they fire i think theres definately a bit more of a base value =]
Range (100): Base 10 %, H-C 20 %, WEP 70 %
Handling (100): Base 10 %, H-C 30 %, WEP 30 %, STR 30 % you dont have to be agile to handle a cannon, just strong =p

Category: PSI Combat (APU)
Damage (100): Base 30 %, APU 70 % psionics would probably bes less about base damage, but still relevent in a game
Aim Speed (100): Base 20 %, APU 40 %, FCS 30 %, PPW 10
Aim Precision (100): Base 20 %, APU 40 %, FCS 30 %, PPW 10
Frequency (100): Base 10 %, APU 20 %, FCS 20 %, PPW 50 more ppw/mana obviously means better freq
Range (100): Base 10 %, APU 20 %, FCS 50 %, PPW 20 if you want an ubar range overspec fcs (at expence of damage/freq :P)
Handling (100): Base 10 %, APU 20 %, FCS 40 %, PSU 30 %

Category: PSI Support (PPU)
Damage (100): Base 30 %, PPU 70 %
Frequency (100): Base 10 %, PPU 20 %, FCS 20 %, PPW 50
Range (100): Base 10 %, PPU 20 %, FCS 50 %, PPW 20
Handling (100): Base 10 %, PPU 20 %, FCS 40 %, PSU 30 %
note: for ppus aim speed/precision (which they will need for some moduals like db/para) they will need to spec more fcs.. not nessisarily a bad thing mind..


Category: Drone Combat (RCL)
Damage (100): Base 40 %, RCL 60 %
Aim Speed (100): Base 40 %, RCL 40 %, WPW 20 %
Aim Precision (100): Base 40 %, RCL 40 %, WPW 20 %
Frequency (100): Base 20 %, RCL 30 %, WPW 50 %
Range (100): Base 10 %, RCL 20 %, WPW 60 %
Handling (100): Base 10 %, RCL 40 %, WPW 40 %
flightdistance? Base 20 %, WPW 80 % wpw's main influence should be distance and with a base value why should rcl effect it)


Category: Hacknet Combat and Hacknet Support (HCK)
Damage (100): Base 40 %, HCK 60 %
Aim Speed (100): Base 40 %, HCK 30 %, T-C 30 %
Aim Precision (100): Base 40 %, HCK 30 %, T-C 30 %
Frequency (100): Base 10 %, HCK 30 %, T-C 60 %
Range (100): Base 10 %, HCK 30 %, T-C 60 %
Handling (100): Base 10 %, HCK 40 %, T-C 50 %

[Genji]

I looked but may have missed it, what's FCS for monk spells? A new skill type they have to spec? Perhaps to make it harder for hybrids? Or is it already something ingame and I'm just a retard?
Also PPW nolonger effects ppu damage makes me a sad panda :(

[Zheo]

Oh - and yes to new weapons (and implants, armors) ...

Autocannon!!! Plasma Autocannon!!! Gatling Laser Cannon!! Rotory Grenade Launcher! Railgun!

hehehe

[Zheo]

Oh - and yes to new weapons (and implants, armors) ...

Autocannon!!! Plasma Autocannon!!! Gatling Laser Cannon!! Rotory Grenade Launcher! Railgun!

hehehe

[Dribble Joy]

I looked but may have missed it, what's FCS for monk spells? A new skill type they have to spec? Perhaps to make it harder for hybrids? Or is it already something ingame and I'm just a retard?
FCS (Focusing) replaces MST.

[Genji]

FCS (Focusing) replaces MST.

That's not as bad then, looks like pe's will prob gain some damage % on spells but still lose some freq % if you have over 55ish psu since it won't effect it at all anymore. =/

Well, that is if the old numbers are comparable to the new ones as far as % effect goes.

[Dogface]

Oh - and yes to new weapons (and implants, armors) ...

Haha there's no backing out now, I'm so holding you to that :)

[Dribble Joy]

One potential problem with ppu freq not being affected by psu is that the stats on the spells used by PEs and Spies would drive them towards the nanotech buffs. Which if they use TC as a req would leave low techers out in the cold.
Of course if a PE or Spy forgave all his psi skilling for spells for psi resist the increase in TC might lower their offences sufficient to compensate the psr, but of course TC is a factor in high tech dmg/time.

[Safunte]

HC Tank vs HC PE with the removal of hard caps on weapons.

Tank uses CS, rare build, allows up to 120% in all of the weapon stats, allows for the tank to spec extra heavy combat and recieve the maximum potential of the weapon and setup.

PE uses TPC, nonrare build, allows <94% in all of the weapon stats, possible 2 damage increasing mods allowing <116% in damage, allowing the PE to get less use out of his weapon than the rare using tank.

my point,
REMOVE CONSTRUCTION CAPS ON NON RARES!!

[onero S]

my point,
REMOVE CONSTRUCTION CAPS ON NON RARES!!


agreed

[CMaster]

Just what does handling do?
Because iff its just like recoild amount,I can see my PPU deciding to no longer bother with ANY PSU - which opens up some interesting (although not necessarily deisrbale) possibilities.

[Dribble Joy]

Removing the cst caps entirely would then put non-rare users at an advantge.

Making the gun ultimas add both freq and dmg means you'd need a 4 slot to get 120% (afaik), if not then a raise to 90% cst cap as well would help.

[Zheo]

Unless my maths is really bad! Which it could well be, I worked out the following damages. Lets say the weapons are all TL 115, and base damage for a TL 115 weapon (pistols say) is 16000. Then a High Tech WOC Pistol is going to do 2400 more damage per minute than a low tech shop brought weapon.
As you can see though the Rare Tech deals only 400 damage per minute less than the WOC weapon. If the weapon has a ROF of say 100 per minute, this means that the WOC weapon deals an additional 4 points of damage per hit!

I just though I'd post my sums up for discussion. Of course I could be wrong... But it does seem like shop brought will rank alot closer to rares etc now. Not quite sure how it will translate into PVP since PVP damage isn't quite the same as mob damage in that mobs take a certain amount of damage each shot which doesn't change, where with PVP the more hits you land tends to built up damage. So if pvp it could mean that the bonuses add up!

WOC Tech 18400
WOC Low 17600

Epic Tech 18320
Epic Low 17520

Rare Tech 18000
Rare Low 17200

Non Rare Tech 16800
Non Rare Low 16000

[netster]

REMOVE CONSTRUCTION CAPS ON NON RARES!!
yes!!!!

[Terayon]

Going to have to do somthing funky with the faction reward weapons. Otherwise the ts will gain alot more then say a pain easer from the no weapon caps becouse of the low requirments.