Class Orientation: Private Eye

[Thanatos]

As it wasn’t possible to convert the combat skill evaluation and the class orientations par for par, it is possible to discuss the pro and contra for each class. How strong or weak is my class after the balancing changes? Are their characteristics as developed as announced or as they should be? Did the balancing really make Neocron fairer?

We’d like answers to those questions to be able to perform possible fine-tunings. We’d like to focus on discussion here – please report bugs here (http://forum.neocron.com/forumdisplay.php?f=191)!

Balancing Aspects:
- Medium damage generation, medium resistances
- High flexibility in orientation choice
- All ranges

Fundamental changes:

Subskills:
- Resist Piercing (PCR) – Strength
- Resist PSI (PSR) – Psychic Power
- Focussing (FCS) – Psychic Power, replaces Mental Steadiness (MST)

Orientation as M-C Private Eye:
- Influence of Weapon Lore (WEP)

Missing Features: None

Known Bugs: None

This thread is currently closed and will be available for discussion after a familiarization phase (Please check for more information (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=136935)).

[Thanatos]

Now open for discussion!

[Safunte]

MAJOR FLAWS FOUND.
Basically with the PE in regards to balancing, it was understood that they needed a nerf. This nerf was (supposed to be) more specific to pistol weilding dex based pes in that their resistances using higher end weaponry weren't much worse off than pes using lower end weapons or even str based weapons.

INSTEAD, KK follows through with a general nerf, reducing effectiveness of drugs and implants of all types, and limiting both the PEs resistances and offensive qualities no matter what kind of setup they're aiming for.

THE NUMBER ONE FIX TO PES WAS TO CHANGE THEIR MAINSKILLS AND HAVE STR AND DEX EQUAL.

why were they unbalanced? they were spies with high resists and better psi.

the main issue here, imps and drugs are nerfed entirely too much, to the point where they weren't considered in balancing, its almost as if whomever was dealing with balancing didn't want them to be part of the issue and tried to generalize all classes to secific setups.... which has always been neocrons balance flaw.

[Dribble Joy]

THE NUMBER ONE FIX TO PES WAS TO CHANGE THEIR MAINSKILLS AND HAVE STR AND DEX EQUAL.

Really? When was this announced?

And I wouldn't agree with the latter part of you're post either; the imp system would work better with a higher smg/skill gradient and a slight rework of the imps. HC PEs may have been hit a little hard, but again only a few tweaks are needed (given that HC/MC PEs will have higher defences and HC/MC weapns do more dmg per tl than RC/PC ones, HC/MC PEs are going to be using lower tl weapons than rifle or pistol PEs. Mainskill values that HC/MC PEs reach is more important anyway, given that caps have been removed it makes tl less important).

Regarding drugs. I generally take the view that they should not be a required part of a setup. Why should an HC/MC PE be forced to take beast to compete?

[Dribble Joy]

General problems.

Ath issue, though this affects all classes for the most part, really needs to go.

Lack of diversity within a weapon choice, again an issue for all classes, see this (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=137808) thread for details.

PEs can still use DB. Can also stretch to a blessed deflector, unsure if this is intended.

[Safunte]

Really? When was this announced?

This was announced, by me, just then.

It fixes the two things wrong with the PE... the too high of damage output as a dex based class because they're miniture spies with a DB and better resists.... and it make it so they can actually have str based weapons, which at that point would be decent enough to use, and both ways would allow for better armor making it a more well rounded class in regards to a defense/offence equilibrium.

[jini]

I believe, PEs need more defenses.
Their heal is very nerfed and the only thing they got left is their psi protection, which is already thrown to the trash when compared to nanites protection. So, you have a generally inferior character when compared to spies, while both have equal healing capabilities.

I haven't tried pe nanites yet, but that is difficult, because then, psi is nerfed and you cant even use the heal anymore, plus I dont know how efficient debuffing is in such a fast game.

[Sylow]

I by now have a spy and a PE on the testserver and i dare to say, general survivability of the PE, not counting the stealthtool, is much better.

The difference between damage witout active nanites active or them running is a tiny bit stronger on the spy than the difference of absorber/protector/deflector running on the PE.

Compared to the CON and STR advantage of the PE, this matters little, the PE still can handle himself under fire where the spy would have died already. Also note that the spy can only prepare himself for two damage types incomming. This can, when you know what you are up against, work well enough in PvE.

In PvP it's much harder, you never know which mods the enemy has on his weapon and in the unlikely case that you have the right protection up, he may simply switch his weapon and you're back to step 1. Not to mention mass-PvP where there the spy has no way of ever protecting himself half as good as the PE or weapons like the x-bow which can have 3 equivalent damage types at the same time.

My PE has a somewhat lower damage output than my spy due to the lower TL weapons (lack of DEX), but being able to use the damage boost at least partially compensates for it.

The higher survivability of the PE quite well compensates for that, though. I consider my PE already by now, despite that i have spent less effort for optimisation, to be more powerful than my spy. The only thing which i really miss is the stealthtool, which allows my spy to still get away occasionally when things start to go south.

Edit: I forgot to mention, while i still am not good in the use of the debuff nanites (i tend to debuff myself more often than the enemy), it's possible to use basic protector/deflector/absorber and TL10 heal and still have focusing high enough to be able to use the smaller debuff-injector while using only one drug.

[Dribble Joy]

It fixes the two things wrong with the PE... the too high of damage output as a dex based class because they're miniture spies with a DB and better resists.... and it make it so they can actually have str based weapons, which at that point would be decent enough to use, and both ways would allow for better armor making it a more well rounded class in regards to a defense/offence equilibrium.
I'd disagree, spy offence is much higher (compare a painy on a PE with a libra on a spy), and PEs shouldn't be using DB, not just from a solo perspective, but from a team one.

[Lifewaster]

Since the later patches, PE survivability is way down. Really all they have left is the xbow and that isnt so good anymore.

PE basic shields give between 5-7% shielding ...... compared to 25-36% in older patches. Blessed shields give about 10%.


A basic SPY nanite setup , gives 7.5% vs force/fire/poison/xray , with a 15% vs nrg/pierce........

A PE using blessed deflctor , gets 6% vs fire/poison, 7% vs xray/energy , with 10% vs force/pierce........ (w/o blessed def its just 4% force/pierce)


So you can see the PE psi shields have been reduced a lot.

[Dribble Joy]

I think theres two things that can be done.

Bring the PE shields up to previous levels.
This gives PEs the choice between Shields or nanites. This does mean though that PEs orientated towards a support role in teams are at a significant disadvantage combat wise.

Keep the shields as they are, but add a multiplier to PE armour and resist dmg reductions (or their steel skin value).
This means they are still competitive in combat, can increase their defences slightly with shields or use nanaites, and still benefit from PPU foreign shields.

[Lifewaster]

I have a feeling the shield changes were unintended, if the goal was to reduce the maximal possible non-ppu-self cast to 25%

There were 2 changes, non-ppu casting recieved a penalty , but the values of the shields themselves were also reduced...its the combination of both these that has made the nerf so severe.

Currently a PPU casting a holy shield gets 85% , but any one else (eg holy hybrid) casting that holy shield gets 25%

But this modifier seems to have been applied across the board to all TLS whereby any non-ppu cast only gives 29% of the potential of that shield (eg 25% instead of 85%)

This system works for the holy shields since they are so incredible high at 85% leaving a potential 25% to be obtained...........but when its applied to lower TL we have a situation where a capped PPU casting basic shields makes 25%.......but anyone else casting it makes only 7% ......thus the possible max shield obtainable for the other classes is only 7% rather then 25%....etc

######

Best solution would be to leave the caps at 25% , but remove the 29% modifier , so the 25% becomes achievable again.

(this will also help hybrids who are utterly gimped atm (blessed hyb makes 7% shields .....with pathetic offense)

[jini]

I by now have a spy and a PE on the testserver and i dare to say, general survivability of the PE, not counting the stealthtool, is much better.
Are you sure we are playing on the same server?
Take a look on the (correct) protection figures given by Lifewaster.

[awkward silence]

Yeah ive noticed that since the shield nerf my PE is not really competitive agants a spy.

I would really appreciate a return to the previous psi effectiveness or something that compensates.

ATM a good (by definition of player skill) spy with nanites kicks a good PE with ease.

[Lifewaster]

Well hes kinda right, in theory even at 7% PSI shields , thats approx the same as a all-round nanite setup , with the higher con and better armor on the PE.

But when u consider stealth, and the option to hit 35% with specific nanites...and higher TL weps and DPS ...then the spy kinda still wins.

eg for spy vs xbow , throw up a 30% energy/30% xray nanite configuration.

But why should the PE with 70 con ? only average about the defense same as a spy now , considering they lost stealth , and lost the higher TL weps

Nanites have brought the spy up a little , which was needed, but the PSI shield nerfs have pushed PES down a bit too much.

[jini]

Not only that.
Pistol Pes dont have ANY pistols anymore, but a very hard to reach xbow(you need a woc disk) and an equally very hard to get ion shotty (you need hacknet skillz0rz)
My children, forget that you can easily get these on test server :p just imagine what is needed to get them when it hits retail...

[Dribble Joy]

Judge, pulselaser pistol, libby and others remember. Slasher even, though you will have to use either a lot of drugs or use nearly all brainslots with a dex imp.

[Lifewaster]

Well, I think a consensus is PEs need their 25% shields back first of all..then after that lets see if the lower TL weps will still need a boost (having to rely on woc to play seems severe also)

[jini]

I cant imagine myself using a judge :p
The TL92 yes. Thats a nice pistol, but I haven't tried it tbh. Is it any good? TL92 helps a lot in setups... but again no xbow???? O_o :D o_O :mad:

[Dribble Joy]

The +dmg for WoC weapons is still an issue, it's going to make the xbow a requirement, spies will all end up using the ak and the barretta. Hardly conductive to the intention of variation this project was intended to bring.

[jini]

Dribble, don't you think it's time for you to join the Roger fan club? Since you already wear that red hat....

[Dribble Joy]

Sorry, the 'Rabid Judge Fan Club' is somewhat insistant on members not joining others.

[awkward silence]

Well hes kinda right, in theory even at 7% PSI shields , thats approx the same as a all-round nanite setup , with the higher con and better armor on the PE.

But when u consider stealth, and the option to hit 35% with specific nanites...and higher TL weps and DPS ...then the spy kinda still wins.

eg for spy vs xbow , throw up a 30% energy/30% xray nanite configuration.

But why should the PE with 70 con ? only average about the defense same as a spy now , considering they lost stealth , and lost the higher TL weps

Nanites have brought the spy up a little , which was needed, but the PSI shield nerfs have pushed PES down a bit too much.

I second this...except that the PE has 65 con and not 70

[awkward silence]

Sorry, the 'Rabid Judge Fan Club' is somewhat insistant on members not joining others.

Count me in on that club...

*goes back to stroke my pretty judges*

[jini]

Count me in on that club...

*goes back to stroke my pretty judges*
well for that you need the infamous avatar lol :lol:

[Sylow]

Are you sure we are playing on the same server?
Take a look on the (correct) protection figures given by Lifewaster.

Good question if we play on the same server.

Go ahead, log in on my server, it's called "Quan". Make yourself a spy. Power yourself up with nanites. I come with my PE, the only weapon visible will be my terminator. Wish you good luck guessing what ammo type i modded it for. It's always piercing, but what else? Explosive ammo? Phosphor ammo? Uranium ammo?

And after you gave yourself the nanites to protect yourself well enough against whatever two damage types you expect me to do, it might very well happen that i pull out a laser or plasma rifle. Wish you good luck with your nanites.

You get my point? Nanites are really nice in a controled setup like PVE. But even in a 1-on-1 PvP setup it's absolutely easy to completely take them out of the equation. And now i challenge you to think it over, how this might change in an OP fight, where you have more than one person threatening you.

Yes, you of course also have the option to put yourself one shot of each kind of protection nano. Then take a look at the values given by Lifewaster, if you do that, you have _almost_ the protection of PSI. But the PE still has better armours, more STR, more CON and thus more resists and more HLT.

I certainly agree that the PE has less firepower available than the spy and lacks the stealthtool, but in any 'normal' combat situation (excluding rather controled PvE conditions) the PE can absorb noticeably more damage.

[jini]

Against PvP I inject a whole nanites set of everything once, and according to weapon used top up what I need/guess is most important (piercing dmg in our case) We can test it anytime you wish.
Im peperoni there... and only use a single rifle, FL, and sometimes redeemer for ranged sniping :p

[Dribble Joy]

So you were pepperoni at the OP fight.

Not carrying on about whether or not either of us were any good, it did seem you did take more dmg than the other spy I fought there, one of which I could barely harm at all.
What armour/resists/imps were you using?