View Full Version : Class Orientation: Spy
As it wasn’t possible to convert the combat skill evaluation and the class orientations par for par, it is possible to discuss the pro and contra for each class. How strong or weak is my class after the balancing changes? Are their characteristics as developed as announced or as they should be? Did the balancing really make Neocron fairer?
We’d like answers to those questions to be able to perform possible fine-tunings. We’d like to focus on discussion here – please report bugs here (http://forum.neocron.com/forumdisplay.php?f=191)!
Balancing Aspects:
- Medium damage generation, medium resistances
- Emphasis of solo fighter capabilities
- Short (P-C) to very long range (R-C)
Fundamental changes:
Subskills:
- Resist Piercing (PCR) – Strength
- Resist PSI (PSR) – Psychic Power
- Focussing (FCS) – Psychic Power, replaces Mental Steadiness (MST)
Missing Features: None
Known Bugs: None
This thread is currently closed and will be available for discussion after a familiarization phase (Please check for more information (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=136935)).
I hear nanites are completely pointless to use as their psi counterparts get the job done two fold. making their defense worse than you'd expected.
Rifles are shit because you based them off range, people have been complaining about this the entire time. You upped their range and way downed their damage... sorry mistake, 90% of combat is close range, having rifles just makes you at a huge disadvantage.
the malus on implants and drugs and such is also incredibly lame. moreso for the pe.. but this effects the spy alot as well, seeing as though they need to use psi because nanites suck.
Apocalypsox
14-02-07, 00:08
Nanites are uber. I put force nanites in my bloodstream and the red point muties didnt do much to me.
(Unless their bugged)
My only real complaint is no heal-specific high level heal nanites. And they need longer times.
true, there needs to be decent nanite heals, nanites aer supposed to be an alternative topsi, not to be used in parallel
Dribble Joy
14-02-07, 01:59
You upped their range and way downed their damage... sorry mistake, 90% of combat is close range, having rifles just makes you at a huge disadvantage.
Given what I've seen so far, rifles aren't that bad compared to pistols.
Remember, a pistoler is going to be speccing just as much wep as a rifler, so where do they gain an advantage without the range capability?
No it's not the system I would like. I'd preffer rifles and pistols (and melee, heavy and apu) to be equal, but wep skilling to represent range, such that aiming would cap quick (and freq/dmg independant of wep) with the amount of wep skilled affecting range. Pistols would have a cap on range, so that it would be pointless speccing more. This would leave them with equal fighting power but less 'area of influence', the benefit would be points to spend elsewhere. A rifler could choose to have less range and do likewise (like someone with a shotgun for example or just like it up close).
Lifewaster
14-02-07, 20:31
I think spies have been largely boosted in 2.2 , rifle dmg is higher then equal TL pistols (80% vs 75%), and they can use also higher tl weapons then PEs in any case.
SH dmg and freq is atm equal to APUs with longer range (higher freq in fact if you consider the lack of spell cast time delay for the initial shot)
And when using nanites effectively they can achieve higher self resists then tanks for PvE specific situations.
But where does stealth fit in to this. Its a nice bonus but is it too much of a bonus now ?
Obsidian X
16-02-07, 13:22
Spies with IMP specced are going to be massively at an advantage to any other spies now. I tried the basic nanite FRC/PRC tool against the cyclops and I have to say its pretty worthless. However the high-level tools are supposed to be very good (not tried them) meaning spies can forget about speccing HCK now. On the plus side of course it means we'll never be short of pokers!
Lifewaster
16-02-07, 14:37
Spies with IMP specced are going to be massively at an advantage to any other spies now. I tried the basic nanite FRC/PRC tool against the cyclops and I have to say its pretty worthless. However the high-level tools are supposed to be very good (not tried them) meaning spies can forget about speccing HCK now. On the plus side of course it means we'll never be short of pokers!
See here (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=137851) for nanite shield findings (dated from patch 163 however where shields gave 35%....this may be only 25% now)
EDIT : just tested findings still hold, SPY can still reach a 35% pierce/poison shield at the same time. (but this results in drugflash..... a 30% shield vs both is achievable w/o flash)
People will say this game is unbalanced as long as people will be at different levels of leetness :cool:
Dribble Joy
16-02-07, 15:13
EDIT : just tested findings still hold, SPY can still reach a 35% pierce/poison shield at the same time. (but this results in drugflash..... a 30% shield vs both is achievable w/o flash)
This probably makes up somewhat for the lack of armour they can get hold of.
Can they reach 30% on all 6 or not?
Lifewaster
16-02-07, 15:35
This probably makes up somewhat for the lack of armour they can get hold of.
Can they reach 30% on all 6 or not?
Basically you get 7.5% per shot per 1 type , you can have a max of 8 shots at 100 overload , or 12 shots if you go to the max of 150 overload (but results in drugflash)
So then its a case of mix and match , at 150 load, thats 2 shots of each of the 6 type = 15% vs all 6 simultaneously
More realistic PvP setup will be to go for 4 shots of 2 types resulting in a 30% shield vs those 2 types . Pierce/energy seems a good choice .....looking at the armor available
Or perhaps a standard setup will be 1 shot of all 6, then a 2nd shot in energy and pierce resulting in 7.5% vs fire/xray/poison/force and 15% vs pierce and energy
FYI: I just tested chaos cave using 4 pierce + 4 poison , resulted in a 30% shield vs both and approx 72% overall resist wearign kevlar+the new poison PA (better then I could achieve on a self buffed tank :p)
They are definitely very good for PvE
unfortunatly there is a xbow ingame which does enr + xray + poison/fire/xray dmg -.-
a weapon which has 3 different dmg types is kinda overpowered i think. maybe the enr. dmg comes away or sth like that.
Only major problems I see with spies currently are:
The lack of a decent heal nanite - I really like the idea of spies being independant fighters allowing them to operate 'self buffed' away from the main fighting team and PPUs. The nanite 'shields' available are great for this but the basic heal that I guess is designed for tanks doesn't compensate for the lack of access to psi heals either self cast of foreign holy.
The lack of hacking spies - I've not played a monk on the TS, but if they need to spec a lot of psi power meaning no hack skill I can see problems arising when it hits retail and people try and get a team together to hack ops. If say 80-90% of spies go down the nanite route, and you really need the high level tools for it to be worthwhile, then there are going to be very few runners who have the necessary hackskill to hack an op. Also, any Hacknet setup spies are going to be at an even bigger disadvantage (read totally useless) outside of HN due to having less personal protection than even other spies. For my money this further increases the pointlessness of having a hacknet layer at ops. I'd sooner see them returned to pre 2.1 settings of 3 layers of protection hackable at the hackterm. It always seemed like a crude way of making hacknet more relevant to the game than it actually is. It's a useful way of obtaining info and items and maybe transportation but thats about it. It just frustrates the majority of players when you have to search everywhere for a HN spy so you can go hack an op, but you can't blame people for not making HN chars as they're totally useless for 98% of the game.
Dribble Joy
16-02-07, 16:59
Spies and PEs don't need PSU. However with the caps removed and wep still affecting dmg and freq, most combat chars are going to be reluctant to spare the hack or imp points.
What we might see is the emergence of support spies, hacker/impers.
As for heals, everyone's heals are a bit shite (bar PPU's). A PE's or tanks isn't that different from a spy's.
No but PEs need to spend the majority of their Int points in wep lore - I don't know too many op hacking PEs on retail servers and the need for wep lore will be greater given the removal of caps, and spies now need all available points for wep lore and imp, assuming they're going the nanite route which i would think almost all will. I just don't see too many chars with the requisite hack skill to take an op being out there. On the plus side, as has been mentioned, gone will be the hours of spamming trade looking for a poker ;)
Dribble Joy
16-02-07, 17:27
No, I doubt we will see hacker PEs. No caps is fine, but with wep affecting dmg and freq it won't mean anyone having any secondary skills.
You could argue that if you want to do two things at once one or both will have to suffer because of it but... eh...
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