View Full Version : Combat Skill: Heavy Combat (H-C)
We have created a thread for each weapon category in Neocron to allow easy communication between you and us. Here you can post your first impressions, experiences and suggestions. You can also ask us about changes for bugs related to the combat area please use this [link] thread.
You will find updates to these threads in the original post as well as in the normal post list that way you can easily keep yourselves up to date or participate in the discussion.
As we are currently in the Christmas period, we will from time to time present a new toy that you should check out.
Tip: Creed (Laser Cannon, HighTech, Rare, TL 114)
Missing Features: None
Known Bugs: None
This thread is currently closed and will be available for discussion after a familiarization phase (Please check for more information (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=136935)).
Dribble Joy
14-02-07, 01:51
The skill gradient for nearly all the weapon systmes is too shallow.
Though the skill effects on imps is high (though not high enough so that variation is actualy meaningful), this still leaves the possibility of small reductions in combat skill giving very large increases in other skills.
A skill system more akin to that in NC1/2 would give better results.
Here's (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=137808) a suggestion for values on imps and general imp system.
There are still no WOC HC weapons, Some ideas for you guys at KK:
ALSO: THE CURSED SOUL SUCKS! ROF is so slow you miss half the shots, IMO, decrease damage, increase ROF, OR reduce to firing 2 shots, then increase ROF.
Low Tech:
Autocannon tl 110-115
Shots fired: 4
ROF: Average.
Clip Size: 40
damage: Medium.
(Similar to a plasma cannon in terms of how it fires except it should be a decent speed unlike plasma cannons now!)
Single Shot Cannon TL: 100-110
Shots fired: 1
ROF: Low
Clip Size: 10
Damage: High.
High Tech:
Gatlin Laser Cannon TL 100-110
Shots fired: 4
ROF: High
Clip Size 40-60
Damage: Average
Neutron Blaster TL 110-115
Shots Fired: 1
ROF: Low
Clip Size: 8
Damage: High.
So basically fix the plasma cannons so they can actually be USED!
Secondly bring in some WOC weapons.
Thirdly DO NOT COUNT AOE WEAPONS AS PVP WEAPONS - You just end up doing extra damage to yourself.
HC was probably the only thing i was looking forward to in 2.2.
You all failed miserably, and have not listened to the public every step of the way, you should be making the game how they want it instead of how you want it.
I've been trying to stick with 2.2 and hope that during its testing it would become at least acceptable, but no, you're losing my hope. What a terrible terrible time for a once great game.
Maybe if communication with your community wasn't so rediculous.... and one sided mind you... I dont think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out the favoritism towards the german speaking populous.
With Gimped runspeed, thinned out resists, and lame aiming... not to mention gimping of the classes using these weapons, HC is still inferior.
HC is ok .... dont know what your talking about -.-
check your resist and learn how to aim and stop whining about your own lowbirdness.
thx
ashley watts
17-02-07, 01:12
Creed ftw ?? :lol: (extremly dissapointed in the cs though :rolleyes: )
HC is ok .... dont know what your talking about -.-
check your resist and learn how to aim and stop whining about your own lowbirdness.
thx
[ edited ]
Apocalypsox
17-02-07, 04:54
Safunte...Go to sleep or something man. Seriously.
From what i saw, HC was fairly balanced with most other classes (Short of pistols which need some minor adjustments) and could hold their own fairly well.
You all failed miserably, and have not listened to the public every step of the way, you should be making the game how they want it instead of how you want it.
Amen Brother, praise the Lord
Safunte...Go to sleep or something man. Seriously.
From what i saw, HC was fairly balanced with most other classes (Short of pistols which need some minor adjustments) and could hold their own fairly well.
What it is is, nobody knows all the "sweetspots" yet. I can garuntee you once people start to figure these out and get a better handle on the imp/setup situation in 2.2, HC and... well maybe melee, probably not, will be severely underpowered again. Tank setups are not hard, and are probably near what their best will be on the test server, and they're still slightly underpowered. They'll stay an unusable soloist class.
When I see Neocron 2,2 I can only smile... I saw ReaKKtor laughing about the Elves of WOW, but now they are going the same way as those games...
AvB war, unsoloable classes, just adding quests, and more quests... Its going more and more mathematic....
HC tank is NOT balances atm, Safunte is totaly right... SURE you can always kill people, its not hard on a unskilled server like Terra (Prepared to be quoted...) but its not a generality. Tell me what the HC has got more ? Dammage? no, Resist? no, Larger clips? no, Speed? no, Do they heal more quickly? no... Do they have some sexy tools like stealth? no...
A good hc tank will alway kill normal skilled players from X class, but compare things that are comparable please.
awkward silence
18-02-07, 21:02
When I see Neocron 2,2 I can only smile... I saw ReaKKtor laughing about the Elves of WOW, but now they are going the same way as those games...
AvB war, unsoloable classes, just adding quests, and more quests... Its going more and more mathematic....
HC tank is NOT balances atm, Safunte is totaly right... SURE you can always kill people, its not hard on a unskilled server like Terra (Prepared to be quoted...) but its not a generality. Tell me what the HC has got more ? Dammage? no, Resist? no, Larger clips? no, Speed? no, Do they heal more quickly? no... Do they have some sexy tools like stealth? no...
A good hc tank will alway kill normal skilled players from X class, but compare things that are comparable please.
He pretty much put it the way i would have.
Gulinborsti
19-02-07, 12:18
But the H-C PE is dead and worthless in 2.2, and this is an issue kk should think about before keeping things as they are atm in 2.2.
But the H-C PE is dead and worthless in 2.2, and this is an issue kk should think about before keeping things as they are atm.
KK doesn't want diversity anymore in this game...
Only the fact that class1 kills class2 and class3 kills class1, and maybe class4 and class5 can work together to beat class6...
No more freelance. That's reaKKtor's work.... They take all good points from neocron and bash them in the air (utility :confused: ), wanting to copy WoW style and mix it with FPS... That's crap!
KK doesn't want diversity anymore in this game...
Only the fact that class1 kills class2 and class3 kills class1, and maybe class4 and class5 can work together to beat class6...
No more freelance. That's reaKKtor's work.... They take all good points from neocron and bash them in the air (utility :confused: ), wanting to copy WoW style and mix it with FPS... That's crap!
im sure u spend a maximum of 2hours on the testserver... and u dont know what your talking about... really.
im sure u spend a maximum of 2hours on the testserver... and u dont know what your talking about... really.
i'm sure hes absolutely right and you just think that because one pistol pe has 5 more points into bodyhealth but 10 less fire, it is diversity.
Look, if you're not seeing a wide spectrum of weapons being used... or moreover, if you can name them all when you see people using them, then its not variety. Alot of new guns, we should see some being used, and alot of old ones as well, not just "here are all these guns... and heres the one that works for pvp"
i'm sure hes absolutely right and you just think that because one pistol pe has 5 more points into bodyhealth but 10 less fire, it is diversity.
Look, if you're not seeing a wide spectrum of weapons being used... or moreover, if you can name them all when you see people using them, then its not variety. Alot of new guns, we should see some being used, and alot of old ones as well, not just "here are all these guns... and heres the one that works for pvp"
lol... and did you know that all weapons and implants will be rebalanced?
there are many problems right now with frequency and damage... and KK knows this.
Look, if you're not seeing a wide spectrum of weapons being used... or moreover, if you can name them all when you see people using them, then its not variety.
Now, which of the weapons you would expect not to know after how many years of playing?
Add 50 more weapons and they still by properties will all be alike the existing ones. And in some time, you know all 50 and still say, there is no variety. (Although i admit, i would not mind if some weapons, when all balancing is done, would be carbon-copied in all properties and be placed in game with a new name, model and sound again. But that would be pure cosmetics, nothing which has the slightest urgency. )
I lately started to enjoy the completely-no-psi Spy, for example. Most spies still use psi and if it's "just" for healing and minor boosts. (Nanos beat the low level defensive psi, as long as you know what you're doing and have an idea what you're up against. If you can't guess what weapon and ammo the enemy is using, psi still is your better bet. )
Though, alas, with the nanos another part of variety comes into play... if you can guess which fields the spy probably injects nanos for, you can get around that by using another weapon with uncommon damage type. (Oki, X-bow is the big evil there. Three damage types, no way to defend yourself well against it with nanos... :( ) Thus one of the less known weapons suddenly might turn into an ace here might will well be worth using.
Alot of new guns, we should see some being used, and alot of old ones as well, not just "here are all these guns... and heres the one that works for pvp"
Hmm. The way you say it, it very much sounds like 2.1 i admit. And yes, there are several guns which currently are not worth using. The answer on this problem might, unknown to many, be connected to the fact that it's still in testing and not retail.
And as a small amusing sidenote, i lately found my new arena-favourite: the rocket pistol. It compensates for my lack of aiming and despite not being a rare weapon, the damage is sufficient to give me a chance to win a fight. (APUs excluded. Those guys still are so fast, they run circles around my rockets... )
The above mentioned part of which nanos to use comes into play again. Who would inject anti-force nanites when fighting against a spy? Since nobody does, there's no mitigation for my trusty rocket pistols damage. :)
Look, diversity is not only a question of weapons, but a question of role in the game.
The tank is now a peace of flesh, just here to be shooted at. OMG T3H FUNZ0r (don't tell me it's RP, its in the BG, its way too simple to explain a thing like this AFTER 5 YEARS OF NOT DOING ANYTHING AGAINST IT
And because of that tanks will always need to be supported... by monks for exemple (how strange!!, how diverse!!)
Why don't you open your eyes and see that the game was better with the game style of nc1?? Open such a server, and you'll have 400 players in a month.
neocron was not ment to be played like in the test server. Let the player decide of the way they want to play a class, and let them opportunities...
Lifewaster
19-02-07, 16:21
The tank is now a peace of flesh, just here to be shooted at.
TBH your description sounds like a 2.1 tank.........In 2.2 the tank has a higher dmg output per TL then most DDs (cannons 90%) vs rifles (80%) pistols (75%)
Only apu (100%) have the slightly higher dmg output..... but there the tank has more hp/resists and speed.
Obviously things arent fully balanced yet, theres problems with aiming and dmg output on particular HC weps, then here is the place to point that out.
.........But just to say "2.2 sucks cos nc1 was best" isnt the most productive way I think.
The tank is now a peace of flesh, just here to be shooted at.
I spent some time in the duel zone lately. While i myself am mostly prey, i liked to also watch others fight. I saw HC-tanks both winning and loosing against:
- Spies
- PEs
- APUs.
What i still have to see is a MC-Tank loosing against a HC-Tank. But clearly, tanks are able to hold out on their own in a 1-on-1 at the moment. (But are not guaranteed to win, either. Of course, right now there are plenty of messed up setups, but in general the status quo is, every class can, when set up and played well, beat up any other class. MC excluded, perhaps, but considering that the arena is not too big, this even might look different in an open area. )
There might still be problems like some weapons of one cathegory beating others hands down, there still are issues with melee combat, drones also might appear too strong when smartly used, but these are mere details in the big picture.
Ok guys, I agree I may judge 2,1, because I dont play on the testserver.
But the point I really can't stand is the "fix" of the reload bug... that's... crap, especially for tanks, and adding ammo is not okay because you just stand like still for the whole fight... sucks, no fun.
And that's still on nc2,2, right ?
Ok guys, I agree I may judge 2,1, because I dont play on the testserver.
Hmm. So you don't play there, but you tell us what's wrong with the new system? Now, thank you...
But the point I really can't stand is the "fix" of the reload bug... that's... crap, especially for tanks, and adding ammo is not okay because you just stand like still for the whole fight... sucks, no fun.
And that's still on nc2,2, right ?
What bug you refer to? That a weapon sometimes, but rarely, doesn't reload properly any more but needs ammo dragged from the inventory into it?
I admit, i also had the problem on the testserver once, so the bug's not gone. Zoning usually helps but you are right, when you fight for your life the next zone often is too far away to help it.
Still, it's not a new bug but rather a legacy. For the moment consider it a "critical weapon failure", you have to retreat to unjam your gun. ;) It doesn't solve the problem but it's also nothing to blame 2.2 for when it already is a well known (and rarely occuring) bug of 2.1.
Ok guys, I agree I may judge 2,1, because I dont play on the testserver.
But the point I really can't stand is the "fix" of the reload bug... that's... crap, especially for tanks, and adding ammo is not okay because you just stand like still for the whole fight... sucks, no fun.
And that's still on nc2,2, right ?
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
that was the best thing i ever read ^^
well ill say something to your ... suggestions :P
the runspeed decrease while using hc weapons was decreased a lot. its like holding a rifle on retail now.
reload goes fast and is calculated with frequency and damage -> damage over time. so the reload doesnt matter anymore.
ey and i forgot: CS now got a 40 shot mag.
I love MEH :D :D
thanks for those info's
So If I'm right, now if you capp freq+damage on you'r gun, reload is faster than not capping it ? Friends on TestServer told me crapp then ?!?! THATS WHY I DONT KNOW FFS 8|
But what I said ISN'T WRONG, its generally right.
bleh! ;)
Dribble Joy
19-02-07, 19:20
ey and i forgot: CS now got a 40 shot mag.
And the judge now has a 20 round clip (empties faster than a libby does in 2.1 O_o)... and does crap dmg....
I am an unhappy DJ....
What it is is, nobody knows all the "sweetspots" yet. I can garuntee you once people start to figure these out and get a better handle on the imp/setup situation in 2.2, HC and... well maybe melee, probably not, will be severely underpowered again. Tank setups are not hard, and are probably near what their best will be on the test server, and they're still slightly underpowered. They'll stay an unusable soloist class.
I completely agree with that, tanks are still useless infact more so since if you want to wear pa your still gimped, now by armour as well as a bigger hit box, and runspeed. KK haven't listened to the english speakers as far as I can tell everyone complains about tank runspeed on terra, if they play a hc tank, and now it's even worse!
Doc Holliday
20-02-07, 06:09
I completely agree with that, tanks are still useless infact more so since if you want to wear pa your still gimped, now by armour as well as a bigger hit box, and runspeed. KK haven't listened to the english speakers as far as I can tell everyone complains about tank runspeed on terra, if they play a hc tank, and now it's even worse!
LOL. read this thread a bit more mate. the hitbox thing was an nc1 rumour. has it surfaced again?
LOL. read this thread a bit more mate. the hitbox thing was an nc1 rumour. has it surfaced again?
well... i dont think so -.-
when u dont wear a PA u got real problems with good damage on a CS.
Lifewaster
20-02-07, 14:12
Heres the HC setup I used at last nights op fight....it turned out not too bad. Main strengths were a very high run-speed (when un-equipping weapon) which allowed to escape from the multiple enemy drones.
no-pa (used the underwear that gave -24 fire instead of a ath/agl nerf)
con:
122 ath
just 50 base hlt and 50 base in all 4 resists
USED all 4 resist chips + filter heart +gamma bones resulted in 70-90 con resist vs all (only 49 fire due to the nerf from the underwear) 3 of the chips gave - agil thou.
dex:
106 agil
just 83 TC (min needed for weapons)
int:
84 WEP
str: just 102 str since using few str imps, only a backbone
150ish HC
75 force/pierce
60 transport
Weaponry:
Ravager (102 str)
TL 92 Flamer
Winding argument (rare grenade launcher)
#######
Even with the low 102 str , these available weapons turned out quite viable. Rav for range, Flamer for close, and grenades for fun(stealthers/rooftop droners/enemy groups....etc)
I'd definitely say Fast Tank > max resist Tank (since you dont cap resists either way), so the option to de-select weapon and run (not die) when faced with stronger foes means your not just a bag of hlt to be shot :p
so you're saying you can reach an average speed when compared to other classes, have way less resist, and maybe be fast when you put away your weapon.... while dealing shit damage (150 hc is way too low... and the TC helps on the t-c weapons aka rav)
I personally went with a high damage setup and lowered speed to slightly below average, then i used a laserpointed rav and ionic cannon and switched to a CS after locking on with a laserpointed weapon... kinda sad that its basically needed that one uses a laserpointer and switches weapons to be competative...
So my tank on the TS is more stationary but a high damage dealer... its sad though that even with high resists they still cant have as good of well rounded resists as the psi classes.
why is it that i have 222 HC with 105 TC and i only get 139% dmg on a dmg 120% cs? Is it like that for other classes or are tanks the only ones?
that is due to the softcapp, so you will see a very slow increase on your percentages from a certain point on. it's about the same for all classes and it's not advisable for a setup to try to max out a weapon in 2.2.
Preety sure it will be impossible now to cap a rare-weapon.
so based on what u guys have seen in the test server what is a decent or reasonable percentage to get on a weapon?
Lifewaster
06-03-07, 19:12
so based on what u guys have seen in the test server what is a decent or reasonable percentage to get on a weapon?
I say that getting 100%+ is reasonable , 120% is good , 130% is very good , 140-150% is outstanding.
(Best way to compare for yourself is test the dmg between a weapon 20-tls lower.)
ie: 120% on a tl 100 vs 140% on a tl 80 etc.
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