View Full Version : Combat Skill: PSI Combat (APU)
We have created a thread for each weapon category in Neocron to allow easy communication between you and us. Here you can post your first impressions, experiences and suggestions. You can also ask us about changes – for bugs related to the combat area please use this [link] thread.
You will find updates to these threads in the original post as well as in the normal post list – that way you can easily keep yourselves up to date or participate in the discussion.
As we are currently in the Christmas period, we will from time to time present a new „toy“ that you should check out.
Tip: Crahn Holy Argentiferous Lead Coat (Armorsuit, TL 73)
Missing Features: None
Known Bugs: None
This thread is currently closed and will be available for discussion after a familiarization phase (Please check for more information (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=136935)).
Lifewaster
14-02-07, 20:44
Hmm where to start.....
APUs have been nerf-hammered in 2.2 no denying this . The removal of anti-buff + the lowered freqs has significantly lessened their combat threat lvl.
However they do still seem to be useful/effective at op fights.....
Their main advantage now is the ability to still target runners effectively in a mixed fight and deal high primary dmg in fire/poison since the modded guns only can deal 25% of this dmg now.
But lack of a rare poison beam partly relegates this role to fire-only , and thus we will probably see most runners simply speccing extra fire.
Theres a freq upgrade on the way , but they may still require some more boosting...how about that rare poison beam ?
braydagner
16-02-07, 04:17
Increase rate of fire back to what it used to be, introduce Line of Sight aiming. Give them back antibuff, take away the frostation thingy, in fact, remove para completely.
I heard that running while firing decreases damage, i like that idea (if its true)
Looking at the recent Test Server OP fight video it looks like you can hit people as an APU even with minimal reticle lock. Even if there is a damage nerf (can't remember if there is one or not) for not being locked on I can't say I like it. Making the classes more balanced should also mean requiring people to aim similairly to everyone else in regards to being able to hit the target. Bray mentioned the LoS which is definitely a major problem since it lets people unfairly hit you if you catch them just right. I also don't like how slow-motion Neocron has become in terms of aiming (and runspeed somewhat even though it was tweaked a bit, it's still slow IMO) which is also what Bray has already mentioned. Thought I'd just repeat it though, because to me it's a small change that really has an effect.
The other things I noticed were pretty much listed already so the only other thing I can mention is the link in the starting post of the thread here points to the German version instead of the correct English one (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=136934). :)
Dribble Joy
16-02-07, 06:23
Making the classes more balanced should also mean requiring people to aim similairly to everyone else in regards to being able to hit the target.
Indeed, which is why I don't like either the current implementation or theory that says that different weapons systems should have different aim speeds and maximum lock values.
I also don't like how slow-motion Neocron has become in terms of aiming (and runspeed somewhat even though it was tweaked a bit, it's still slow IMO) which is also what Bray has already mentioned. Thought I'd just repeat it though, because to me it's a small change that really has an effect.
Indeed. Aiming speed (especially while moving) is still decidedly slower. It doesn't give the game any more real need for skill, it just slows things down and frustrates people.
As for runspeed, if the ath effects on imps was fixed, it would be pretty much as is now in 2.1.
Obsidian X
16-02-07, 13:17
Increase rate of fire back to what it used to be, introduce Line of Sight aiming. Give them back antibuff, take away the frostation thingy, in fact, remove para completely.
I heard that running while firing decreases damage, i like that idea (if its true)
I'm pretty certain APU aiming is LoS now. Try casting any beam weapon from behind a hill of round the corner of a wall and see if it hits, cos every time I tried it fizzled.
LoS or a major dmg/freq nerf or a recticle might have helped bring the APU class down to an acceptable level somewhat. All 3 changes at once have nerfed it into oblivion.
Lifewaster
16-02-07, 14:34
A problem not yet fully addressed also is the Freq and "pre-cast" delay for APUS which no other weapons suffer from.
With the old system of of the virtually insta-cast 105 freqs , this wasnt noticable, but now with APUS having 30 freq its extremely noticable.
example a SH vs a HL .
Both have 30 freq and equal dmg
Yet the SH gets effectively a free initial hit , while the HL is waiting for its cast amination to complete.....in reality the SH gets 2 shots off in the time it takes the APU to finish his first shot. This results in the SH having double the initial spike dmg despite the 2 weapons being the same in theory.
A suggestion has been made to have APU spells fire instantly with the freq delay occuring afterwards......allthough how feasible this is to implement without players switching spells to circumvent it I dunno
We’d like to discuss possible adjustments to frequencies again – but first off, this should be clear: frequency is directly related to the damage dealt. High frequency = low damage per shot (and vice-versa). This is true for all weapon categories and will not be changed.
Apparently the last changes to this category seem to have resulted in a worse feeling for APU combat. Therefore we’d like to discuss this proposal to improve the current situation. In our opinion, damage output is more important than frequency – that’s what this proposal is based on!
Proposal:
We will adjust the more powerful modules by increasing their shot time – which results in a lower frequency and more damage per shot. The APU monk will have to aim less often and will deal high damage per shot. This would affect the following modules:
Halo
Shot time (current): 1.0 Sec.
Frequency (current): 60 / Min.
Damage (current): 198.86
Shot time (new): 1.2 Sec.
Frequency (new): 50 / Min.
Damage (new): 243.31
Barrel
Shot time (current): 1.2 Sec.
Frequency (current): 50 / Min.
Damage (current): 243.31
Shot time (new): 1.6 Sec.
Frequency (new): 37.5 / Min.
Damage (new): 337.05
Beam
Shot time (current): 1.6 Sec.
Frequency (current): 37.5 / Min.
Damage (current): 337.05
Shot time (new): 2.2 Sec.
Frequency (new): 27.3 / Min.
Damage (new): 574.20
These damage numbers are based on the Holy Energy series modules.
This would provide the APU with more choice of high- and low-frequency modules that he can use according to his preferences.
Note:
As all the current rare modules are based on these module types, they would also be adjusted accordingly.
Importance of this discussion:
Due to the short amount of time available, you should consider this proposal intensively and in great detail, so that we can implement this theoretical, final version into the upcoming retail release.
Lifewaster
02-03-07, 19:47
Hmm Its sounds a bit like what ppl were suggesting.. That the "shot time" should be faster then the freq so a spell will hit sooner, then the remaining freq applies before the next shot can fire ?
Will there be added higher TL versions (or rare) of the halos so the apu can choose between a faster spell without also having to chose a weaker spell?
(for example Pistols dont need to use a tl 50 pistol just to get high freq etc)
######
Just checked those figues for beams :
Old beam works out at 207 dmg/sec
New beam works out at 258 dmg/sec
So thats a 25% boost or so to APU dmg output....maybe still need to be higher thou.
Lifewaster
03-03-07, 07:09
We will adjust the more powerful modules by increasing their shot time – which results in a lower frequency and more damage per shot.
A thing to note here, is the Lower the freqs become, the bigger the disadvantage the APU recieves when compared to guns which hit instantly.
This is because he suffers the freq delay before anything happens. 2.2 seconds to cast a Beam = 2.2 seconds of dmg taken from the enemy before the APU can hit back at all. This is a very severe disadvantage and could be actually worse then the old 1.6 second time.
######
(in a way, you could now compare such APUS to a sniper , but with no stealth, and with only very short range , and who automatically misses his "first" shot every time, then waits 2.2 sec before his "second" shot hits)
Lifewaster
04-03-07, 20:15
A suggestion perhaps that can be done before launch, is to give APUS their DOT dmg back....even if just a small effect.
Considering Pe/Spy/Tank can all now set someone on fire for 18 sec....
Perhaps add an extra 10% dmg as an 18 sec DOT to all the apu beams , this would be just 37 dmg over 18 sec, (6/tick)
The return of DoT damage would certainly be a nice touch if these extra slow casting rates are here to stay. I guess the alternative would be to bring the frequency back to the old machinegun style of spells like the holy energy halo (I would certainly enjoy the faster rate of fire more), but lowering their damage down so that over time they will match what riflers/pistollers/tanks can do.
Sounds pretty hard with long casting times and low freq's as an APU.
In PvP even with no reticle it happens quite alot that you miss, and now we got a reticle too and bad freq.. Though the up in DMG was very needed.
Miss the first spell and you are pretty much dead before starting to shoot the second one.
To miss a shot as a APU is more severe than for a tank/pe/spy to miss their shot as they usually have very high freq guns/rifles (except snipers then)..
If it takes 3 seconds delay between every hit with apu spell.....it will take me 3 seconds to cancel my account too....this game will get holy shitty slow and actionless.
Keep high frequency and reduce damage per hit is what i vote for as you will need to keep the aiming and not only 1 lucky shot with high damage will be needed. Also.....its much more fun to see a shitload of fast hits in a fight than a bunch of nibs running around with a 2/min frequency shots....sounds retarded to me.
Thanx
Beam
Shot time (current): 1.6 Sec.
Frequency (current): 37.5 / Min.
Damage (current): 337.05
Shot time (new): 2.2 Sec.
Frequency (new): 27.3 / Min.
Damage (new): 574.20
Ok Lets focus on that beam please John. because there is something wrong here, or something I, don't understand.
How can one expect a monk to win a duel when it takes 2.2 secs to shoot a spell???? Why dont you just do the super duper spell, which shoots once every 2 minutes, doing 1000dmg in once, and locking you for 2 minutes. You can't win like this.
I tried a fire beam, TL 81ish in its spec, it said that it was shooting @ 115/min, yet I noticed that it didnt shoot at all, something was wrong. the thing was damn fast, but it wasnt firing, and reticle was tightly closed.
Personally from my OWN experience, I do believe that the sweet spot with CURRENT speed, is something like 70-80 per min. If you range your spells to go from 60 ... 90 you wont lose I am sure.
DONT listen to Germans at this time. For some reason they all seem to believe that it is better to use single shot weapons. I tend to agree on this, but this is not valid on all situations PARTICULARLY to fast moving targets.
Just imagine what will happen, if you lose one shot @ 574dmg. Disaster. You will have to wait 2.2 secs for the spell to shoot again. The other guy will kill you in the next 2 secs. That is why people dont use ion pistols in duels
Lifewaster
07-03-07, 07:21
Ok Lets focus on that beam please John. because there is something wrong here, or something I, don't understand.
How can one expect a monk to win a duel when it takes 2.2 secs to shoot a spell???? s
This I also agree with, the problem with the solution presented, is "Where are the rare Halos ?"
Otherwise , trying to get a 1/sec cast spell means being forced to use a low TL , non rare halo.....so effectively there is no choice , you must use the slow spell to get a high TL weapon.
Let him find the optimum frequency first. Then make a poll which one is it? 60? 70? 80?
if it's 80, then for high end Rares, he can raise damage a bit and lower frequency back to 60 or 65. Also he has another option: he can leave high frequencies, but make high end spells need more accuracy on the reticle to channel power. I don't really understand where the problem is with apus.
Edit: he can also make apus as sensitive as they shoot in 2.1 with the reticle closure and he can still have reticles. He has so many options now wtf is the problem ffs???
I now understand why we are getting erroneous results with monks. John, Enrich your team with more pvpers. Invite good monks and let them show you how they fight. Don't stick to people that say single shot >> burst. He who says such a thing is terribly mistaken. I can prove this in a sentence
I now understand why we are getting erroneous results with monks. John, Enrich your team with more pvpers. Invite good monks and let them show you how they fight. Don't stick to people that say single shot >> burst. He who says such a thing is terribly mistaken. I can prove this in a sentence
yeah then prove it -.-
fight with xbow pe against a judge pe with same aiming skills. the xbow PE will win every time no matter what resist he has. theres a problem with burst weapons, cause u have to aim during the whole burst at the enemy. and many weapons like the craftmans dream, ray weapons , beam weapons, beretta do too much damage.
yeah then prove it -.-
fight with xbow pe against a judge pe with same aiming skills. the xbow PE will win every time no matter what resist he has. theres a problem with burst weapons, cause u have to aim during the whole burst at the enemy. and many weapons like the craftmans dream, ray weapons , beam weapons, beretta do too much damage.
ok I will prove it! :p
First of all, you have to aim with everything in NC period. There are no autoaim weapons as far as I know. The argument about having to aim during the whole burst is therefore not correct. You just have to aim. Period.
Now, when you are facing a VERY fast (or better a VERY dodgy one) victim you lose a lot of shots right? Right. Let's say that 1 xbow beam= 4 slasher bursts, and that it takes the same time to fire one xbow shot or 4 slasher bursts. Simply put from all these simplifications, you have 100% chance of losing a xbow shot, but just a 25% of losing slasher's. Comprende ? :D
And don't tell me that you might lose 2 slasher bursts, coz ill tell you that you can also lose 2 xbow shots :p
2nd argument: Just because we all know how valuable it is for our xbows to find the target, we end up holding our fire in order to avoid reloading times and/or losing hits (see argument above). What this means is, simply that WE dont USE xbow in its intended frequency but less, which also leads to less DoT.
Ive got a 3rd argument too, but its a bit moot :p cheers
Ah and before I forget, don't give me examples of an xbow against a judge ... jeeez. You compare a pure xray weapon for which there is no armor over a plasma one? Try testing a BoH against a slasher instead :p
ok I will prove it! :p
First of all, you have to aim with everything in NC period. There are no autoaim weapons as far as I know. The argument about having to aim during the whole burst is therefore not correct. You just have to aim. Period.
jepp thats right but no argument against the things i said above :P
Now, when you are facing a VERY fast (or better a VERY dodgy one) victim you lose a lot of shots right? Right. Let's say that 1 xbow beam= 4 slasher bursts, and that it takes the same time to fire one xbow shot or 4 slasher bursts. Simply put from all these simplifications, you have 100% chance of losing a xbow shot, but just a 25% of losing slasher's. Comprende ? :D
when u shoot with xbow and u hit the enemy u can be sure to do the full amount of damage. when u shoot with the slasher und u hit the first shot of the burst then u cant be sure to do the full amount of damage.
on retail u aim at the first bullet of the burst and every shot hits the enemy even if your aim isnt pointed at the enemy anymore. A slasher burst needs like 1,5 seconds to complete, so u have to aim like 1,5 seconds at your enemy. with the xbow u have to aim one time and thats like 10 ms :P. that means that the aim of burst people has to be like 10 times better then the aim of oneshot people.
the problem isn quite there with 2 shot burst weapons like First Love e.g.
And don't tell me that you might lose 2 slasher bursts, coz ill tell you that you can also lose 2 xbow shots :p
yeah but following the above logic losing xbow shots isn as hard as losing slasher shots.
2nd argument: Just because we all know how valuable it is for our xbows to find the target, we end up holding our fire in order to avoid reloading times and/or losing hits (see argument above). What this means is, simply that WE dont USE xbow in its intended frequency but less, which also leads to less DoT.
yeah... and i dont use the slasher in its intended frequency. that isn an argument jini :P
Ive got a 3rd argument too, but its a bit moot :p cheers
K i got one, that isnt moot -.-
u dont want to see your single shot weapons like craftmans dream or xbow nerfed -.-
well they dont have to be nerfed. the issue with burst weapons has to be fixed.
Ah and before I forget, don't give me examples of an xbow against a judge ... jeeez. You compare a pure xray weapon for which there is no armor over a plasma one? Try testing a BoH against a slasher instead :p
yeah tested that already. laser weapons are overpowered, like ray weapons and craftmans dream and beretta.
as u said KK has to test that things themselves. cause well never judge that issues objectively.
Doh, I say again: losing 25% of a slasher (and yes I am speaking of retail 2.1 slasher not the new one, as I dont know how it handles) isnt that much of an issue. Losing 100% of an xbow is 4 times that. Even with the reloading nerf of the slasher in 2.1, it's still more powerful than xbows, and it should, as it is a TL113 pistol.
In any case, if you dont believe me, get a BoH, Ill get a slasher and lets see who will win :p (and please don't forget that Jini's career started using a TL92)
Oh and wtf is that craftsman dream lol? Never used that :rolleyes:
well u dont understand
when u dont hit the first shot ... the other wont hit too even if your aim is on the target.
well i have to test that again. that happened before patch 165
hm i would do it but the TS is down :P
when u dont hit the first shot ... the other wont hit too even if your aim is on the target.
That's a mistake. If your reticle is on target they hit. Get a FL, go either in 2.1 or 2.2.
Actually FL rocks in 2.2, its the best rifle there is and It might be the ultimate rifle, if it shot only in groups of one shots, instead as it does now, in groups of 2, which again, I think this is a a mistake from KK's side and it wasn't intended. Fl is my fav, because I control the weapon the way I like it. I press the trigger it fires, I stop pressing it stops. Now imagine if it was using 1group shots!! (There you go John, give us one shot burst FL :p)
the fl isnt really a burst weapon as u said.
so testing the burst issue with fl isnt quite useful :P
Honestly, Jini, i think your point of view is not correct because: your aim actually is too good.
I've seen you fighting a few times by now, i know my aiming can't compete the slightest with yours. But my experience is closer to what Nabbl describes. You seem to have very good aiming yourself and seem to be able to keep the crosshair well on target all of the time. Thus you probably don't experience the "lost aim" problem as much as more mediocre players.
And btw. forget that "if you loose one shot" nonsense. Yes, it is true that if you miss one shot of a slow firing high damage weapon, you loose more than if you miss one shot of a low damage high speed weapon. But since neither weapon kills with one shot this statement has little relevance.
The deciding matter is, how much damage you can inflict on the target within which ammount of time. With two weapons which dish out the same damage over time (for simplicities sake ignoring things like magazine size, damage type and other factors right now ) the inflicted damage on target will be the same when both have the hit/miss probability.
(Yes, there might be the situation where the one miss rolled more will loose you the fight. On the other hand i could also calculate that the slow-firing weapon at each shot gains a "damage advantage" which the faster firing weapon catches up with the rest of the salvo, then the slower one again leaps ahead and rapid fire catches up... but these are single examples and of no importance from a mathematical point of view. )
fight with xbow pe against a judge pe with same aiming skills. the xbow PE will win every time no matter what resist he has. theres a problem with burst weapons, cause u have to aim during the whole burst at the enemy. and many weapons like the craftmans dream, ray weapons , beam weapons, beretta do too much damage.
a burst is for me a period of fire like this:
*-*-*-*----*-*-*-*----
<----------><---------->
BURST1 BURST2
for the disruptor, he does 4-shots burst that you cannot abort (burst periods spaced like described in the The Disruptor need rework (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=138151) topic) . It seems that aim accuracy is valid for the whole burst. It means, that if you first aim well for the first shot of the burst, then you can do anything else, run away, aim anywhere or whatever, the three following shots while reach your target exactly like the first reached it.
I guess this is exactly what happen on other burst weapons at the difference that longer is the burst period, more it's noticable ! And actually, the burst period of a disruptor is very long ....
actually real burst weapons just misfire like shit. e.g. take a speedy stand in front of your not moving foe and give him hell and then watch the huge amount of damage that you'll deal :p
lasers on the other hand fire 2 single shots, one at the moment you pull the trigger and the 2nd about halfway of the firing time. that's why they're not burst weapons that have the issues alot of ppl already mentioned. you have to be on target when firing and again in the middle of the firing process, that's about it and is pretty much like firing single shot weapons once you get used to it.
the fl isnt really a burst weapon as u said.
so testing the burst issue with fl isnt quite useful :P
What do you mean by that now? What kind of weapon the FL is?
What I said is relevant for when you miss the hit, and not when you actually hit. Everybody has a miss ratio according to how good his opponent is. My point with the FL is, that when you miss, you miss less. Unfortunately, we can't compare directly a FL using spy against a xbow PE/spy, because again there is NO comparison in speed. Not only do you have to use implants to raise Dex, but you also have that ridiculous speed penalty -of god knows why- riflers have.
The disruptor in 2.2 sucks big. And I am pretty certain, that if you take two Rifle spies, one using HL the other using FL, FL will come on top. It's not that the guns arent balanced, but the 25% chance I have described
Guys, this post is about apus and monks....
Guys, this post is about apus and monks....
Vegah, you now understand why HL now is firing at 40rpm?
It does, because people on Mars believe damage>>frequency
These posts have EVERYTHING to do about monks, or more simply is why monks are shafted.
@Yuuki: the speedgun simply does the amount of damage it meant to do for a TL75 gun and so does the Tsunami rifle. Not because it misses, but bcause it's low level
Yes....give a REVENGE-type weapon to all categories....fights will be super nice with a holy bunch of nibs running like fags thinking they win cause they can aim a single shot heavy damage weapon.....
No fuckin way....high frequencies are best with lower damage. it turns up the pvp.
The disruptor in 2.2 sucks big. And I am pretty certain, that if you take two Rifle spies, one using HL the other using FL, FL will come on top. It's not that the guns arent balanced, but the 25% chance I have described
well i think its because there are more shots per burst when using disruptor. 4 shots with low frequency. that means when u miss ure target u have to wait 2 secons until u can shoot again.
u said that u can aim during the burst but i testet it and thats not right jini.
Nabbl, from my experience so far with FL, if you dont have the other guy under CONSTANT targeting the weapon misses. I am talking of 2.1, besides the weapon is very different in 2.2 as already mentioned and I am a spy there. I still use the weapon in OP fights, I am using it for 2yrs+ now, I can't be THAT wrong. Maybe, if you keep your target on at all times it makes the weapon more precise and it looks like that to me, but there is certainly a difference in handling. You cant just spray fire with it and expect to hit. You need to aim
yeah but thats the FL. its a 2 shot burst with high frequency. it doesnt feel like a burst weapon. same with ak47
but its another thing with slasher and disruptor
Well, from my TL92 days, I remember that the gun was shooting pretty close, but maybe I am doing something wrong. Anyway I dont understand where is the problem really, especially since what you are saying is, that a burst weapon like a slasher pretty much shoots like a crossbow, while I am saying that it shoots much like a FL, so I dont understand why is it that single shot weapons > burst? Both our findings lead to the result that at Least they are equal,even though I say that if you master them they are better.
vegah and jini r both correct. we can not agree that damage is better than frequency because it simply isnt. if u hav 2 versions of the same weapon one with higher damage low freq and the other the opposite, the higher freq using runner will win. he will hit more shots and thus do more damage over time. its really no contest. the slower weapon will miss alot more, this has been proven time and time again in many duels on terra.
and in jini's v nabbl post... nabbl u can stand perfectly still and miss random shots with a dissy. i tested damage for 2 hours marking down the damage taken in accordance to the amount of resist and i cant tell u how many times i missed 1 out of 4 or 2 out of 4. its not all aim, its the mechanics of the gun as well.
In a test on terra with both players standing still using xbow v slasher. slasher wins, with both guns missing randomly. so even while standing still no gun hits everytime, there will be the random miss for some odd reason :/ so again FREQUENCY is the key, not damage
havent done these type of test on ts yet, mainly because i know that the weapons r all kinda borked. but i will b testing other things :D
and i know this is supposed to be about apu spells, but it all ties in with the examples given. just to prove a point :D
yeah but when u shoot with slasher and u dont hit the enemy, the complete burst fires away. tested that yesterday on some guards. so you have to wait like 1,5-2 seconds to fire again. that means that when u miss the enemy one time u do not only have the problem with less damage but with 2 seconds of doing nothing but run.
with xbow there isnt the problem. when u dont hit the enemy u maybe hit it next time, and the singleshot frequency allows u to hit the enemy whenever u want to.
Apus needs some nerfing no doubt about it but making their freq THAT slow is silly. i for one who have played apu for nearly 4 years as my main gotta agree with jini when it comes to monks Freq > damage , u have to be prety good at aiming BUT even tho a few shots miss u do still have a chance. if u get VERY slow frew one shot miss and ur dead.Gotta remember tha apus are not people who can run away and heal or even JUST heal its either goodof damage in SHORT time or ur dead.
and the whole xbow slasher thing well in 2.1 xbow is overpowered so blah :p
yeah but when u shoot with slasher and u dont hit the enemy, the complete burst fires away. tested that yesterday on some guards. so you have to wait like 1,5-2 seconds to fire again. that means that when u miss the enemy one time u do not only have the problem with less damage but with 2 seconds of doing nothing but run.
yep. slasher/dissy, same problem. this has to be fixed.
I suggest to have further discussion in the thread i opened about the dissy (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=138151) because we are a bit out of topic there ^^
Lifewaster
09-03-07, 13:18
Hmm since patch 168 , I think the improved dmg has been applied (i'm getting 14 dmg from my jones beam , compared to 10ish) but the notes did say they were adding dmg on tl10 and below weps also so not sure.
Need some more testers feedback for high lvl apu stuffs.....
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