Implant change ideas

[Dribble Joy]

Leading on from what I said in this (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=137790) thread, here's what I would do with the implants.

The general theme here would be applied over all the weapon systems, but for the sake of example I'm using dex weapon items.

The overall breakdown is as follows:

Mainstat imps. Few in number with lower sub-skill benefits but higher mainstat ones. Intended for use in reaching a cirtain TL but leaving room for variation. Further broken down into specialist and generic types as will become apparent.

Offence imps. The imps that provide the main variation within a weapon choice. High sub-kill benefits, no main stat ones. Further broken down into specialist and generic types as will become apparent.

Defence imps. Imps that add defencive skills. Again broken down further with primary and secondary types.

Generic imps. Imps that are the middle of the road. Rather than middling imps being near stat neutral, it's my general view that an imp should be better than no imp. Most of these appear in a line-up of imp types (such as hearts and bones) so appear as and when.

Extreme imps. Imps that have massive benefits in one area but heavy negatives in the other.

You may notice that the subskill effects are lower than that of the current TS items. This for two reasons. The current TS dmg output/time gradient is too shallow and there's too much subskill effects about. This mean minimal reduction in some skills causes little or no dmg loss, but increases another skill considerably. Clearly the skill system would have to be altered.

All imps are the top end versions. Numbers are nominal.

Mainstat.

Pistols.
CCP
Dex +7
PC +10
TC/WEP +5
RC/HC -20

SWAT
Dex +5
PC +10
TC/WEP +5
RC/HC -20


Rifles.
DP
Dex +7
RC +15
WEP +10
HTL -5
PC/HC -20

Special Forces
Dex +5
RC +15
WEP +10
HTL -5
PC/HC -20

I want to create a distinction between pistols and rifles other than simply than that of range, so though it may seem that I am creating imps that go against what I have been arguing against recently, in that you shouldn't have imps with polar skills opperating against each other, here the increased benefits mean the centre of the offence/defence balance for rifles is shifted slighty more offensively compared to pistols (what KK has been trying to do but not necessarily getting right). This will not carry on to the offence imps.

Generic.

Advanced Balistic
DEX +3
TC/WEP +12
MC -30

Co-ordination advancer
Dex +5
TC/WEP +5
AGL +5
HC -30

These are non weapon-system specific, thus the benefits are lower. This is intended to create a system where reaching for TLs beyond an 'common TL band' is less efficient. Intended mainly as a third brain imp (or substitute for an MC5). This means that with PEs (with redflash of a given DEX +4) though it's possible to reach dex 108 - see later imps - (clearly 2 and 5 min drugs could be taken of course), the performance would less efficient that with a tl ~90-100 weapon, which could use two main stat brain imps and two defence or offence imps as opposed to two specialist and two generic mainstat imps.

Reflex booster (defencive)
DEX +4
HTL +5
WEP -10
AGL +10

Experimental Reflex booster (generic)
DEX +5
AGL +10

Dexterity booster (offencive)
DEX +6
HTL -5
WEP +10
AGL +10

Offensive.
Specialised.
Pistols.

Close Combat CPU
PC +15
TC/WEP +10
RC -30

Rifles.

Long Distance CPU
RC +15
TC/WEP +10
PC -30

Generic

Targeting computer
TC/WEP +20
MC -30

Experimental Balistic
PC/RC +5
WEP/TC +5
AGL +15
HC -30

The specialised ones again have slightly heavier benefits (generics around 80% of specialised imps) over the generics, again to promote a more middling range of setups.
A little distinction between the last two, rifley one and pistoly one.

Defencive

NCPD Special Unit CPU
XRR/POR +20
Intended to fight DoY forces/weapons

Freedom Force CPU
ENR/FIR +20
Intended to fight NC forces/weapons

Advanced Tactical Mercenary CPU
XRR/ENR/FIR/FOR/PIR/PSIR +7
Generic defence imp for fighting all types of opponent

Protopharm Resist CPU
ENR/XRR/FIR/FOR +15

As with the offence imps I'd like to have a primary imp type and a generic/secondary, the 'mini-pprs' mainly as the latter. The issue is whether the ppr or the moveon should be different overall or not, so for the moment I've done something else with the moveon.

Generic.

Eyes.

Pistol/Rifle eye (offencive)
PC/RC +15
HCK -10
RC/PC -20

Smart Cyber eye (generic)
AGL/ATH +20
HCK -20

Cyber eye (defensive)
PSIR +15
XRR +15 (protects your eyes)

Hearts.

Filter Heart (defencive)
XRR/POR +15

Advanced Heart (generic)
AGL/ATH +10

Cyber Heart (offencive)
WEP +20
PSU +20

Bone Enforcements.

Gamma (defencive)
Head +10 PSIR, +5 FOR/XRR
Chest +10 END, +5 FOR/XRR
Arm +5 TRA/MC, +5 FOR/XRR
Leg +5 ATH, +5 FOR/XRR
Foot +5 AGL, +5 FOR/XRR

Advanced (generic)
Head +10 PSIR, +5 FOR/WEP/PSU
Chest +10 END, +5 FOR/ATH
Arm +5 TRA/MC, +5 FOR/AGL
Leg +10 ATH, +5 FOR
Foot +10 AGL, +5 FOR

Experimental (offencive)
Head +10 PSIR, +5 FOR, +10 WEP/PSU
Chest +10 END, +5 FOR/ATH, +5 WEP/PSU
Arm +5 TRA/AGL, +5 FOR/WEP/PSU, +10 MC
Leg +5 ATH, +5 FOR, +5 WEP/PSU
Foot +5 AGL, +5 FOR, +5 WEP/PSU
(WEP and PSU because of a steadying and psi conductive effect, had to come up with a general offence boost. Exp bones would come down in reqs.)

Extreme.

Bat Queen Chest
END +40
FOR +20
HTL +20
PC/RC/HC/MC/APU -15

Bat Queen Arm
TRA +10
MC +40
XRR/ENR/FIR -15

Strength Heart
HTL +20
WEP/PSU -40

Experimental Heart
WEP/PSU +40
HTL -20

Pistol/Rifle Kami
DEX +5
PC/RC +40
TC/WEP +20
HTL -50

M.O.V.E.O.N. CPU
HTL +20
FIR/XRR/FIR +30
PC/RC/HC/MC/APU -25
(Not sure about this, or at least, not for the moveon (an anti-kami imp should be availiable). Epics should generally be usefull so... dunno...)

Power Armour

PAs in my mind are just another form of imp, and rather than higher levels being better in all respects than lower ones, they should be a range of offence/defence options like other imp types.

Offence.
PEPA - DEX 90/STR 70

PA1
Total armour +180
PC/RC/MC/HC +4

PA2
Total armour +155
PC/RC/MC/HC +8

PA3
Total armour +130
PC/RC/MC/HC +12

PA4
Total armour +105
PC/RC/MC/HC +16

Camo - PA3 with bias towards poison/fire like on TS atm.

WoC PAs - PA3 for WoC1, PA4 for WoC3.


Spy PA - Dex 110

PA1
Total armour +155
PC/RC +8

PA2
Total armour +120
PC/RC +16

PA3
Total armour +85
PC/RC +24

PA4
Total armour +50
PC/RC +32

WoC PAs - PA3 for WoC1, PA4 for WoC3.

Defence.
Concerns the top level version of each type, oustanding/great/heavy.

Carbonsilk - DEX 80
Total armour +205
The base PA.

Glasfibre - DEX 80
Total armour +230
PC/RC/MC/HC -4

Fesilicon - DEX 80
Total armour +255
PC/RC/MC/HC -8

Ionic cotton, Ionic nylon and Krokyodolith do similar, but are STR 110 - tank armours.

All this would create a huge amount of variation just for each weapon choice, added to that the number of weapons and the range of setup types in massive.

[Salieri]

Looks interesting and sounds logical as far as I can see. As you, I’m not sure about the MOVEON.

At first glance the two resistchips NCPD and FF combined with two (or even one) dex/offence chips make a high resi low-tech Pistolero/Rifler. With only 50pts skilled in each resistsubskill you will get at least 95 pts together with implants. Add Armour and shields to that and LowTechs will be as hard as nails (well, they are already).

FF chip would be worth more I think, you can counter the POR/XXR with a Filterheart while there is nothing that gives the same amount of FIR/ENR.

With that system PE’s would have at last make a choice if they want to go offensive or defensive. The dex reqs for high tech weapons will force them to loose one, if not two of the Resistchips. From your posts I guess that that’s what you are demanding for a long timeJ- Still, if the softcap stays as shallow as it is now the WEP/Combatboni wont make that much of a difference to sacrifice a brainslot. That’s why the only way to force a choice is by reducing the Mainstatboni, specially DEX, that can be gained through implants, drugs and armor. DJ’s removal of DEXboni on PA’s for example point in that direction. KK did something similar by reducing DEXboni of the imps on the TS, but along with that reduction come massive losses of agl/atl and I don’t see the point of that.

Spys and Tanks are not as dependant on Mainstatboni as PE’s. Enabling them (or at least Tanks) to use 3 if not 4 resist/defence chips. I would like to see benefits for off/def setups for those classes too but its not that much of an issue as with PE’s and could be achieved by a harder softcap.

The way DJ lists and comments his ideas enables us to look for weaknesses, think it over and make comments about it while keeping the discussion on the big picture of the idea.
I would very much appreciate it, if KK could do something similar with their thoughts on the implants as they are on TS now. Tell us how and why the implantboni were allocated, what your thoughts are, and the discussions could be conducted in a more constructive way than it is now.

[awkward silence]

hmm...

Ive had to have a few reads before i gave out any thoughts.

First thing im skeptical about is that PE's would have too much dex. That perhaps is not a good idea.

Other than that i like it on the whole bar a few things.

[Dribble Joy]

Personally I'd like the dex weapons to go up a lot higher in TL, spies don't have much beyond about 110 dex meaning less availiability for higher end setups.
Also, though a PE could reach 108 (or higher with more drugs), they would loose a lot of offence benefits, meaning much lower dmg output (Eg. using a co-ordination advancer would get you +5 dex, but only +5 TC/WEP, compared to +10 PC and +10 TC/WEP on a close combat CPU), they'd also have lower capacity for defences.
Remember that with no caps, being able to use a high tl weapon is largely irrelevant.

[Lifewaster]

I like the removal of the the ath/agl malus , my tank in 2.2 has some -67 agil mostly due from using the 4 defensive resist imps and underwear/pa.

[Dribble Joy]

Regarding ath/agl malii: The problem with these two skills and having negative effects on them is not about runspeed specifically (though the current malii are so big they do impact it), but about setups as a whole.

Say we have an imp with +10 PC and -10 AGL/ATH. If you want to bring your runspeed up to what you had, you would have to increase your AGL by about 20 points total, and given the likely base value of agl, this would mean 40 dex points or a decrease of about 8 PC, what's the total benefit of this imp?
A whole +2 PC, whoop dee shit.
Conversely you could take it out of HTL, but again the overall setup benefit would be tiny.

AGL and ATH are neither defencive nor offencive skills, malii to them dumbs down the whole setup.
This is why on the generic imps in the first post, the main effects are increases to ATH and AGL, a neutral increase of the whole setup.

[Jason Parker]

Well Thanks for that DJ.
I like that concept a lot. on first read I wasn't sure about some of the imps, but readig all over again and putting the Imps in relation it all makes pretty good sense.
Whenever you boost your setup towards higher TLs, or better DMG Output you have to make a tradeof to your defence and the other way around.

I also agree, that with Imps setup like that the TLs should be shifted up a bit in the Dex field, so still the Spy has some exclusives.

I definetly would like to try that out.

[awkward silence]

I don't like DJ:s dex values

I believe in the "not breaking what is not broken" way of doing things. Especially when they finally got it about right, which is rare

At the test server i believe the dex values are good enough. A PE cant reach everything whilst a spy can with ease. Bar the STR imps i have no problem with most primary bonuses (int/dex/str/psi/con), just the subskills.

As for STR imps for example the marine should have atleast 5.xx STR instead of its current 1.xx and as i said earlier PE's should recieve a higher STR because as off now in the test their just shite in melee and HC and cant only use the shittiest 4x4 vechicle.

[John Doe]

I just want you to know that we'll follow your suggestions and check your ideas - if we decide to use one (or more) of your ideas we will present this in a new thread to get the full attention of you and the rest of the community.

I like the ideas of putting implants into groups with various rulesets (i.e. offence and defecence). Thanks for your work so far :cool:

[Zheo]

I just want you to know that we'll follow your suggestions and check your ideas - if we decide to use one (or more) of your ideas we will present this in a new thread to get the full attention of you and the rest of the community.

I like the ideas of putting implants into groups with various rulesets (i.e. offence and defecence). Thanks for your work so far :cool:

I'm glad your looking into implants again, keep in mind that run-speed effects PVP!!! Also I though i'd give you some ideas! Note:

Defensive:
Req: Con: 40
Con: +1
Body Health: +5
Resist Force: +2
Resist Pierce: +2
Resist Fire: +4
Resist Energy: +4
Resist Xray: +4
Resist Poison: +4
Hacking: -5
Hightech Combat: -2


Req: Con: 65
Con: +3
Body Health: +10
Resist Force: +4
Resist Pierce: +4
Resist Fire: +8
Resist Energy: +8
Resist Xray: +8
Resist Poison: +8
Hacking: -10
Hightech Combat: -4

Req: Con: 100
Con: +5
Body Health: +20
Resist Force: +8
Resist Pierce: +8
Resist Fire: +16
Resist Energy: +16
Resist Xray: +16
Resist Poison: +16
Hacking: -20
Hightech Combat: -8

However this may be too many resists in one implant? So perhaps more like this:

Req: Con: 40
Con: +1
Body Health: +5
Resist Force: +5
Resist Pierce: +5
Resist Fire: +5
Recycling: -5
Implanting: -5

Req: Con: 40
Con: +1
Endurance: +5
Resist Energy: +5
Resist Xray: +5
Resist Poison: +5
Hacking: -5
Hightech Combat: -5

Req: Con: 65
Con: +3
Body Health: +10
Resist Force: +10
Resist Pierce: +10
Resist Fire: +10
Recycling: -10
Implanting: -10

Req: Con: 65
Con: +3
Endurance: +10
Resist Energy: +10
Resist Xray: +10
Resist Poison: +10
Hacking: -10
Hightech Combat: -10

Req: Con: 95
Con: +5
Body Health: +20
Resist Force: +15
Resist Pierce: +15
Resist Fire: +15
Recycling: -15
Implanting: -15

Req: Con: 95
Con: +5
Endurance: +20
Resist Energy: +15
Resist Xray: +15
Resist Poison: +15
Hacking: -15
Hightech Combat: -15

RARE Defensive:
Req: Con: 105
Con: +5
Body Health: +20
Endurance: +10
Resit Fire: +10
Resist Energy: +10
Resist Xray: +10
Resist Poison: +10
Hacking: -10
Recycling: -5
Hightech Combat: -5

MC5 Defensive:
Req: Con: 110
Con: +8
Body Health: +25
Endurance: +15
Resit Fire: +15
Resist Energy: +15
Resist Xray: +15
Resist Poison: +15
Hacking: -10
Recycling: -5
Implanting: -5

--------
Offensive:
(Note: / = OR)

Req: Str/Dex: 40
Str/Dex/: +2
M-C/R-C/P-C/H-C: +10
T-C: +5
WPL: +5
TRA/END: +5
M-C/R-C/P-C/H-C: -5
M-C/R-C/P-C/H-C: -5
M-C/R-C/P-C/H-C: -5
VHC: -5
Int/Str/Dex: -1

Req: Str/Dex: 65
Str/Dex/: +3
M-C/R-C/P-C/H-C: +15
T-C: +10
WPL: +10
TRA/END: +10
M-C/R-C/P-C/H-C: -10
M-C/R-C/P-C/H-C: -10
M-C/R-C/P-C/H-C: -10
VHC: -10
Int/Str/Dex: -2

Req: Str/Dex: 100
Str/Dex/: +5
M-C/R-C/P-C/H-C: +20
T-C: +10
WPL: +15
TRA/END: +15
M-C/R-C/P-C/H-C: -20
M-C/R-C/P-C/H-C: -20
M-C/R-C/P-C/H-C: -20
VHC: -15
Int/Str/Dex: -3

Rare Offensive:

Req: Str/Dex: 105
Str/Dex/: +5
M-C/R-C/P-C/H-C: +25
T-C: +10
WPL: +20
TRA/END: +15
AGL/ATH: +5
M-C/R-C/P-C/H-C: -20
M-C/R-C/P-C/H-C: -20
M-C/R-C/P-C/H-C: -20
VHC: -20
Int/Str/Dex: -3

MC5 Offensive

Req: Str/Dex: 110
Str/Dex/: +8
M-C/R-C/P-C/H-C: +30
T-C: +10
WPL: +20
TRA/END: +15
AGL/ATH: +10
M-C/R-C/P-C/H-C: -20
M-C/R-C/P-C/H-C: -20
M-C/R-C/P-C/H-C: -20
VHC: -10
Int/Str/Dex: -2

Trade:
Note: Bartering would need a hard cap possibly.
Note: / = OR

Req: Dex/Int: 40
Dex/Int: +2
CST/RES/IMP/BRT: +5
REC/REP/VHC: +5
TRA: +5
R-C/P-C/M-C/H-C/RCL: -10
AGL/ATH: -10


Req: Dex/Int: 60
Dex/Int: +3
CST/RES/IMP/BRT: +10
REC/REP/VHC: +10
TRA: +10
R-C/P-C/M-C/H-C/RCL: -20
AGL/ATH: -15

Req: Dex/Int: 80
Dex/Int: +5
CST/RES/IMP/BRT: +15
REC/REP/VHC: +15
TRA: +15
R-C/P-C/M-C/H-C/RCL: -30
AGL/ATH: -20

Rare Trade:
Req: Dex/Int: 95
Dex/Int: +5
CST/RES/IMP/BRT: +20
REC/REP/VHC: +20
TRA: +20
R-C/P-C/M-C/H-C/RCL: -40
AGL/ATH: -30

MC Trade:
Req: Dex/Int: 110
Dex/Int: +8
CST/RES/IMP/BRT: +25
REC/REP/VHC: +25
TRA: +20
R-C/P-C/M-C/H-C/RCL: -30
AGL/ATH: -20

------
Spines
Reg: Str/Dex/Int: 35
Str/Dex/Int: +1
AGL/ATH: +4
TRA: +4
END: +4
IMP/REC/REP/HCK: -5

Reg: Str/Dex/Int: 65
Str/Dex/Int: +3
AGL/ATH: +8
TRA: +8
END: +8
IMP/REC/REP/HCK: -10

Reg: Str/Dex/Int: 90
Str/Dex/Int: +5
AGL/ATH: +12
TRA: +12
END: +12
IMP/REC/REP/HCK: -20

---------

Eyes
Reg: Str/Dex/Int: 30
R-C/P-C/M-C/H-C/RCL: +10
IMP/REC/REP/HCK/VCH: -5

Reg: Str/Dex/Int: 50
R-C/P-C/M-C/H-C/RCL: +15
IMP/REC/REP/HCK/VCH: -10

Reg: Str/Dex/Int: 70
R-C/P-C/M-C/H-C/RCL: +20
IMP/REC/REP/HCK/VCH: -15

--------
Hearts:
Note: / = OR

Reg: Con: 15
ATH: +5
END: +5
XRR/POR: -4

Reg: Con: 15
XRR: +5
POR: +5
END/HLT: -4

Reg: Con: 15
Con: +3
HLT: +5
AGL/ATH: -4

Reg: Con: 50
ATH: +10
END: +10
XRR/POR: -8

Reg: Con: 50
XRR: +10
POR: +10
END/HLT: -8

Reg: Con: 50
Con: +5
HLT: +10
AGL/ATH: -8

Reg: Con: 85
ATH: +15
END: +15
XRR/POR: -12

Reg: Con: 85
XRR: +15
POR: +15
END/HLT: -12

Reg: Con: 85
Con: +7
HLT: +15
AGL/ATH: -12

Reg: Con: 60
XRR: +5
POR: +5
HLT: +5
AGL/ATH: -4
END: -4

Reg: Con: 90
XRR: +10
POR: +10
HLT: +10
AGL/ATH: -8
END: -8

--------
Bones

BASIC
Head: PIR: +5
Chest: FOR: +5
Arm: M-C: +5
Leg: ATH: +5
Foot: AGL: +5

ADVANCED:
Head: PIR: +10
Chest: FOR: +10
Arm: M-C: +10
Leg: ATH: +10
Foot: AGL: +10

GAMMA:
Head: PIR: +5 XRR: +5
Chest: FOR: +5 XRR: +10
Arm: M-C: +5 XRR: +5
Leg: ATH: +5 XRR: +7
Foot: AGL: +5 XRR: +3

EXPERIMENTAL:
Head: PIR: +5 ENR: +5
Chest: FOR: +5 ENR: +10
Arm: M-C: +5 ENR: +5
Leg: ATH: +5 ENR: +7
Foot: AGL: +5 ENR: +3

Phew that was long, now for ARMOUR:

Kevlar: Force, Peircing
Carbon: Force, Peircing, Poison, Fire
Inquisition: Force, Peircing, Fire, Energy
Duranit: Force, Peircing, Xray, Energy
Trinition: Force, Peircing, Poison, Xray
Duranium: Force, Peircing, Energy, Xray

Ok so lets say this is how armour should look:
Spies: 60
Monk: 70
PE: 80
Tank: 100

If that's the case then spies should reach level 2 armour, pe's level 3 and tanks level 4 with monks having their own armour.

So armour should require no more than say;
Level 1: 25 str.
Level 2: 35 str.
Level 3: 55 str.
Level 4: 80 str.

Kevlar Level 1:
Force: 30
Peircing: 20

Kevlar Level 2:
Force: 60
Peircing: 40

Kevlar Level 3:
Force: 80
Peircing: 60

Kevlar Level 4:
Force: 100
Peircing: 70

Carbon Level 1:
Force: 16
Peircing: 10
Poison: 30
Fire: 20

Carbon Level 2:
Force: 22
Peircing: 18
Poison: 60
Fire: 45

Carbon Level 3:
Force: 30
Peircing: 24
Poison: 80
Fire: 65

Carbon Level 4:
Force: 42
Peircing: 30
Poison: 100
Fire: 80

Inquisition Level 1:
Force: 16
Peircing: 10
Fire: 30
Energy: 20

Inquisition Level 2:
Force: 22
Peircing: 18
Fire: 60
Energy: 45

Inquisition Level 3:
Force: 30
Peircing: 24
Fire: 80
Energy: 65

Inquisition Level 4:
Force: 42
Peircing: 30
Fire: 100
Energy: 80

Duranit Level 1:
Force: 16
Peircing: 10
Xray: 30
Energy: 20

Duranit Level 2:
Force: 22
Peircing: 18
Xray: 60
Energy: 45

Duranit Level 3:
Force: 30
Peircing: 24
Xray: 80
Energy: 65

Duranit Level 4:
Force: 42
Peircing: 30
Xray: 100
Energy: 80

Trinition Level 1:
Force: 16
Peircing: 10
Poison: 30
Xray: 20

Trinition Level 2:
Force: 22
Peircing: 18
Poison: 60
Xray: 45

Trinition Level 3:
Force: 30
Peircing: 24
Poison: 80
Xray: 65

Trinition Level 4:
Force: 42
Peircing: 30
Poison: 100
Xray: 80

Duranium Level 1:
Force: 16
Peircing: 10
Energy: 30
Xray: 20

Duranium Level 2:
Force: 22
Peircing: 18
Energy: 60
Xray: 45

Duranium Level 3:
Force: 30
Peircing: 24
Energy: 80
Xray: 65

Duranium Level 4:
Force: 42
Peircing: 30
Energy: 100
Xray: 80

Ok so I'm not really sure about the armour it allows alot of options, the resists are just for SHOW not what i think they should be, I don't KNOW what they should be, but I don't like the idea of tanks having to use some stupid IONIC undies for xray armour! It's a joke! All classes should have armour of all types but MAYBE some of the armour available to each class shouldn't be as strong, for example, maybe spies have low poison, pe's have low energy, tanks have low xray. and monks have low poison/xray I don't know what KK intend I'm just trying to add something into the game so tanks don't just use Duranium/Inq. or spies just using Kevlar or Monk armour!

Just an IDEA!

Ok flame away I know you want to

[Dribble Joy]

I don't like DJ:s dex values

I believe in the "not breaking what is not broken" way of doing things. Especially when they finally got it about right, which is rare
The overall dex bonuses availiable on test are about right (a PE can still reach well over 100), what I don't like are the locations of these bonuses. They are spread over the various offence imps, meaning little or no variation within weapons choice.

And like I said, though in my ideas (for which the values are nominal) there's is the possibility for 110 dex on a PE, the setup would be very inefficient. Hence the 'common TL band' of around 90-100.

Zheo:
The TC malii on the first imps are what I was talking about when I don't want opposite skills being reduced. TC is an offence skills, so you're giving high tech users a pointless setup hit. The hearts also suffer from this.

Again on the offence imps, you're putting too much sub skill benefits on them, as I've said too many times before this won't create the degree of variation we need (10 different weapons in use or 5 weapons each with 10 variations in defence/offence? Which would you prefer?).

[Zheo]

Zheo:
The TC malii on the first imps are what I was talking about when I don't want opposite skills being reduced. TC is an offence skills, so you're giving high tech users a pointless setup hit. The hearts also suffer from this.

Agreed I guess.


Again on the offence imps, you're putting too much sub skill benefits on them, as I've said too many times before this won't create the degree of variation we need (10 different weapons in use or 5 weapons each with 10 variations in defence/offence? Which would you prefer?).

The subskill for attack needs to be high even with 280 H-C you'll only get like 140 damage. So it doesn't matter if a runner gets like 450 HC?

With the con, it could be noted to be too much I never said what I wrote is what it SHOULD be it was simply an idea for the Devs to see the general idea!

[Dribble Joy]

140? What does 140 mean? It's just a number. Just because it's less than the 178% cap of old doesn't mean much.

The reason I put lower sub-skill benefits on the mainstat imps and bigger ones on the pure sub-skill imps is to create more variation within a setup.
As I mentioned in the first post, the skill/dmg is too low, the gradient does need increasing (something I will be mentioning whenever the skill threads open up in the main part of the balancing forum).

[jonus]

Nice, DJ! Perhaps not all the #s I might go for, perhaps exactly the #s I might go for. Can't decide, but the IDEA is the way it should go. Glad someone in KK looked at this thread!

[Doc Holliday]

140? What does 140 mean? It's just a number. Just because it's less than the 178% cap of old doesn't mean much.

The reason I put lower sub-skill benefits on the mainstat imps and bigger ones on the pure sub-skill imps is to create more variation within a setup.
As I mentioned in the first post, the skill/dmg is too low, the gradient does need increasing (something I will be mentioning whenever the skill threads open up in the main part of the balancing forum).

i support your ideas dj for what its worth and i like the ideas about bringing new weapons in to play but lets face it this community will always do impressions of sheep and follow the shepherd or each other. Its happened all the way throughout this whole game. See Tankocron/Monkocron Etc (pe-ocron too apparantly.) then its all about using an xbow and this and that. thats always gonna be the same no matter how u dress it up. remember when noone ever used the healing light cos it sucked. then everyone wanted one cos it was overpowered then it became something else. your gonna have to battle that and no amount of testing and retesting will change it. unless we do some tests on the community and write reports. im all up for that :)

As for the talk of implants that sounds good. Its kinda like Distance weapon cpu compared to say the Experimental ballistic weapon cpu where the first one gives higher subskills bonus but the other increases your stats. this i like alot.


Last of all i think if people truly want to be diverse with setups they should do like the old ways and shut the hell up and not tell people their set ups. it used to be a close guarded secret once. nowadays every man his dog and the dogs grandma can use neoskiller and come up with a setup or get given one by someone else. sorry if this is a bit ot but thats how i see it and i think it needed addressing.

[Dogface]

Carrying on with what Doc said about setups, my friend from NC1 found a very nice judge PE setup. Since I occasionally played this character he would beg me to keep it quiet if people asked questions, because aparently "getting a good setup was half the game"..

[THE_TICK!!!!]

once again DJ you have scrambled my small inept brain :) but from what i COULD understand it sounds good. I have a few ideas of my own wich i will keep to myself for now, since they follow a different line of reasoning.

[Zheo]

140? What does 140 mean? It's just a number. Just because it's less than the 178% cap of old doesn't mean much.

The reason I put lower sub-skill benefits on the mainstat imps and bigger ones on the pure sub-skill imps is to create more variation within a setup.
As I mentioned in the first post, the skill/dmg is too low, the gradient does need increasing (something I will be mentioning whenever the skill threads open up in the main part of the balancing forum).

Again you seem to miss what I said, "This is NOT what I think things SHOULD be"
"This is a general idea for a direction for KK to head in"

I have not done calculations, I have not spent hours figuring out what effects verious set ups would have. I have just pop'd numbers that mean pretty much nothing as an general idea for what kinds of skills should go in what implants.

Keep in mind I was thinking of tanks having 125 Strength and lowering PA for down to 125 str reg. As it is PA 4 is useless! Why? Why the hell does KK have a useless item that is impossible to use!? WHY did they balance it but still keep it out of the reach of people?

The other idea of mine was for the possiblity of a pure attack set up, pure defense set up and a balanced set up, these would need to be tested as well, so don't keep flaming the bloody post when you miss the most important lines DJ

[Dribble Joy]

Carrying on with what Doc said about setups, my friend from NC1 found a very nice judge PE setup. Since I occasionally played this character he would beg me to keep it quiet if people asked questions, because aparently "getting a good setup was half the game"..
I had a very good judge setup in NC1, hell, for most of NC1 I was pretty much the only Judge user on Uranus. Even when PA came out it was still Libbys, Blacksuns, PEs and RoGs. Only when The judge got it's long deserved boost (and though this sounds a little bias, possibly the only boost that actually brought a weapon up to the right power) did people start to use it.

Again you seem to miss what I said, "This is NOT what I think things SHOULD be"
"This is a general idea for a direction for KK to head in"

I have not done calculations, I have not spent hours figuring out what effects verious set ups would have. I have just pop'd numbers that mean pretty much nothing as an general idea for what kinds of skills should go in what implants.
Same here to an extent (all the numbers I have given as said are nominal), but popping numbers in without some though is not going to give the right kind of impression you intend.

Keep in mind I was thinking of tanks having 125 Strength and lowering PA for down to 125 str reg. As it is PA 4 is useless! Why? Why the hell does KK have a useless item that is impossible to use!? WHY did they balance it but still keep it out of the reach of people?
What has this exactly got to do with this discussion?
Though I agree, the PA4s are somewhat pointless. If I were to extend the imp system of this thread to the other classes I'd do similar to what I did with the PE/Spy PAs, put them at about 110 str/psi.

The other idea of mine was for the possiblity of a pure attack set up, pure defense set up and a balanced set up, these would need to be tested as well, so don't keep flaming the bloody post when you miss the most important lines DJ
This is all entirely theoretical, of course it would be subject to adjusting, balancing and testing and a large alteration to some skill relationships (primarily the combat skill/dmg ones).
And I'm not flaming. You post something I think has some integral problems with and I'll tell you so. Like I said in another thread, balancing and therefore this entire project is very important to me and I'll go at it with a bit more fervor that one would normally expect.

If that means I come over as an arse.... then perhaps so be it....


If people haven't noticed yet, what I did in the initial post was bring something of NC1 back to the game, and expand on it's variation.

[StevenJ]

For the record, I like this a lot too. I'd love to see something based on this thinking implemented.

[Zheo]

You said once something about trying to change the "standard" set up.

Well here are some things to help.

1. Do not make PA that is unuseable such as PA 4 (requiring a tank/monk/spy to get +35 str/psi/dex)

2. Do not make pointless implants that give +5 to a main stat, or that give +5 ath, -5 agl.

3. Do not make Ionic Cotton Undies. Just don't, it's scary and wrong in so many ways, and we're not superman so we don't wear undies OVER our armour. Also most undies alow PA to be warn over them.

4. Do include alot of different implants, weapons & armour that gives a WIDE Variety for people to choose from.

5. Do balance things.

6. Do make drugs an add on not a requirement.

[Dribble Joy]

1. Do not make PA that is unuseable such as PA 4 (requiring a tank/monk/spy to get +35 str/psi/dex)
Indeed, thus my idea. All the PAs here are only 10 above the base mainstat cap.

2. Do not make pointless implants that give +5 to a main stat
Useless as in a pure +5 with no other benefits? Or something else?
Regarding the former, depending on the size of a mainstat benefit, no sub-skill benefits may be necessary. Going with the grain of my ideas, a +7 or so (on a non-specific imp) would probably come with no sub-skills.

3. Do not make Ionic Cotton Undies. Just don't, it's scary and wrong in so many ways, and we're not superman so we don't wear undies OVER our armour. Also most undies alow PA to be warn over them.
So change the name? Does it really matter?
It doesn't specify that the underwear go over the other armour anyway (just because it's the PA slot doesn't mean much), surely it means it goes undernieth but perhaps interfere with PA systems.

6. Do make drugs an add on not a requirement.
As I see it. Yes and no.
Are drugs of too much use in 2.1? Probably.
Should the use of drugs be beneficial? I'd say yes. And there is an accociated risk/cost with them, a risk/cost that should be represented.

Edited once I saw the post title.

[awkward silence]

HEY!

I kinda like the notion of wearing my ionic cotton on top of my armour. Since i wear a "doublelayered" ill let ya in on a secret. The second is on top just for kicks.

[Zheo]

Indeed, thus my idea. All the PAs here are only 10 above the base mainstat cap.


So a tank/spy/monk gets a top off at 115 str/dex/psi? Is that to stop pe's getting their hands on high level weapons or do you just not agree with people having say: 130str? We should talk on msn or something instead of post talking!

[Dribble Joy]

This is a bit of a bump, but I think I need to clarify/extend something about the intended difference between the main stat imps and the offence imps.

If all the offence subskills are located on imps that add main stats, then not only will you reduce variation within a weapon choice, but also those chars with lower tl setups are going to be at a disadvantage.
Chars with higher tl weapons will have higher bonuses to their subskill and leave the low tl users even more behind.

Low subskill effects on main skill imps means that aiming for higher TL weapons reduces the availiable amount of offence subskill that are availiable to you. So even if you were to stretch very high (like a PE going for 110 dex), the overall effectiveness would be less than that of the aforementioned 'common TL range', as you use up more imp slots with mainstat imps, forgoing the pure offence subskill ones.