Pistol-Rifle issue

[Dribble Joy]

There is a slight issue regarding the relative power of pistols and rifles.

Given that caps have been removed and wep affects pistol (and rifle) dmg/time, the majority of pistolers are going to be speccing as much wep as riflers.
The problem of course is that pistols have significantly less range than riflers, so if pistols and rifles are balanced dmg wise, what do pistols gain?

In NC1 pistol aiming capped quickly and wep did not affect freq (dmg was capped easily, leaving freq as the variable across setups), so pistolers only needed a minimum wep to reach, leaving them open to take secondary skills like hacking or poking.

This issue was why, though I was grateful for the caps removal, didn't like wep affecting dmg and/or freq.
However this does leave out players who want to go full combat with a setup, why shouldn't a pistoler be able to go all out with wep? The problem is of course how does he make up for his range problem relative to rifles?

I'm throwing this one up in the air, but I do have a suggestion.

Basically, make PC above 50 (base) affect runspeed. To a very slight degree of course.

What's this you cry? DJ suggesting that runspeed affects defence or the performance of a setup? Despite all he has said in the past?
Well yes and no.
While runspeed doesn't directly affect defence (as though we should consider players of all skill levels so that no-one is at an undue advantage or disadvantage, we still need to base things considering perfect skill) an increase in runspeed can be traded off for an increase in defence or offence.
Agl can be swapped for PC, ath can be traded for more resists/hp.

Perhaps something of a 'hidden' agl bonus equal to base PC-50 / 4. So a total of 150 base PC would be a 25 point agl bonus.

Of course it would work better with the ath issue solved and a sharper main combat skill/dmg-time gradient.

[jini]

The caps are removed only in theory. In practice there are still there, as you have only so many Dex free points to spare. I wonder why is it so difficult for people to realize that fact. Whats more, If you add points in Agility and t-c you even have less points to invest in rifles or pistols. Not to mention that after a certain point it moves asymptotically to that "cap"

Pistols gain from t-c while rifles dont. But now that range is actually working, Rifles are way more versatile. With range, there is another issue as well: small maps. But thats another story...

With rifles/canons being so powerfull, there may be a chance of entering the spy-o-cron era, leaving monks behind us. If you ask me, no matter how much I had fun with monks, I believe we will have a lot more with guns, rifles and all.

[Dribble Joy]

The general caps were removed, so that the effective caps for a setup are determined by the implant/armour choices, like they were in NC1 and removing the problem in 2.1.

Assuming these (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=136817) values are still correct, TC does affect rifle stats. So the problem remains.

Unless of course you do want rifles and cannons to have an advantage over pistols, though this would hardly be conductive to variation in weapon choice and playstyles.

[jini]

DJ, stop being theoretical for once :p
please understand that THERE are caps and limits.
If you cant understand that, then tell how is it possible for me to obtain 105 rpm on a HL :D. If you cant, and the only thing you can get is still 40, then 40 is the limit.
AGAIN: CAPS ARE HERE

[Sylow]

I would say, you missunderstand the idea of caps.

In theory, you might reach the mentioned 105 rpm, since we have a soft cap system. Of course, the limitation of skillpoints you have available makes it impossible to have as much skill as it would be required to achive it.

But these are no caps on the weapon. You might find that for your own needs 100 P-C are enough and you rather invest all other skillpoints in DEX in recycling as this makes you the absolute uber fighter. (I know, the values and reason might be a bit off, but you get the point. )

Somebody else might think that he has to pour all the 500 skillpoints he has in DEX into P-C and will not spend a single point in AGL, T-C or any other skill there.

Both might still have found the "sweet spot" for themselves, but the normal player will mix and match and figure out which values work best for him. Which quite likely will be different for everybody.

Still, no matter how you distribute your skillpoints, you will not run into any hard caps on the weapons, only the return benefit will get lower and lower, the higher up you push your skill.

[Dribble Joy]

I shall be theoretical where the situation needs me to be :p.

Anyway, aside from the cap issue, pistols (as we have discussed in the two threads in the main part of this forum section) are at a disadvantage to rifles, something needs to be done about it. I've given one suggestion, be it right or wrong, we need others as well to try and resolve the issue.

[jini]

@Sylow: In theory we can reach near the speed of light, but can we? NO
You can invest all dex into p-c/r-c will you get anything? NO

@Dribble: stop doing as QD and start playing the game for fun, as intented

[Dribble Joy]

Investing in skills as much as a rifler but being at a significant disadvangate is not part of fun frankly. And besides, this is a blancing project.

[Sylow]

@Sylow: In theory we can reach near the speed of light, but can we? NO
You can invest all dex into p-c/r-c will you get anything? NO

Which is exactly what we speak about. Soft caps, but _no_ hard caps. There never is an absolute limit. If you poured all your points int P-C, you still know, would you somehow manage to get another 10 points in P-C, you might do 1 more point of damage or have 1% more ROF than before.

Is it worth it? Definitely not. But it is possible since there is no hard cap. Nobody ever claimed that there was no soft cap. In fact, you will, just as everybody else, find a point where you will consider it not worth to invest into your combat skill any further.

But i consider it positive. One might say, 125 P-C is sufficient for him, damage, accuracy and ROF are fine enough, he "feels" that the benefit for pouring 25 more points into the skill is not big enough for the investment. Somebody else might conclude that he rises the same skill to 175 since even the little higher damage and tiny bit more ROF gives him exactly the edge he needs to win.

Can you tell who of them is wrong? I can't. Each found "his personal" cap, where further investments in a skill don't give enough revenue. But neither is on a hard cap where the game tells him "this much you need, any more is foolish, any less is so, too."

Anyways, enough drifting off the topic.

On the original suggestion of giving pistol users a movement speed advantage for high skill, i am kinda undecided.

While i see the problem that some people now see high WEP as requirement, i also see a chance in there. Very high could WEP allow me to save a bit on P-C, which again would allow me to invest in AGL.

The problem here is not the principle itself but rather the fact that right now you still have noticeable benefits from WEP when your P-C skill is already quite high. It seems (untested, just my impression) that the skills benefits are mitigated individually and then added up. Do you think it's true or is my subjective observation wrong here?

Thus i have to admit, the chance i see is purely theoretical, in practical use you are required to pour quite some skillpoints into both of them. I personally feel "the pain" mostly in reduced hacking abilities but making either of them improve hacking is no option.

So i assume that the speed bonus of P-C is not the worst suggestion but it makes me wonder if the old speed malus for wielding a rifle and cannon could not be the easier fix.

[Dribble Joy]

The point is that if per dmg/time the wep skilling for rifles and pistols is the same (Ie. 100 PC/100 WEP and 100 RC/100 WEP on a pistol and rifle of equal tl gives the same dmg/time), pistols are at a disadvantage.
Given that the stat effects for each skill for the two weapon systems are the same (link (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=136817)), this is the likely situation.

We've had some KK input on a number of threads in this part of the forum, a little here would be most appriciated.

[Liquid_Ice]

Isn't the fact that rifles and cannon wielders run slower than gun/meleers just like your proposed agl increase? The run speed reducing affect of rifle in hand makes close combat much more difficult.. Your ability to run as fast with weapon in hand as without is your advanage.. Rifle to pistol trade is run speed with weapon in hand.

just my .02$

[Lifewaster]

Well, I'd also assume the run speed malus of various weapons is included into the balancing.....apus being exceptional with no run speed malus, but instead having a pre-cast freq delay.


APU 100% dmg no malus
Cannon 90% dmg highest run speed malus
Rifles 80% dmg next highest malus
Pistols 75% dmg least malus


So you must consider the speed penalty which favors pistols and there is also I believe the reticle closing times to consider which again favor pistols most and cannons least.

[jini]

You should all try lil mini:p I think the myth of the xbow pe lives on the spy :p

[Dribble Joy]

APU 100% dmg no malus
Cannon 90% dmg highest run speed malus
Rifles 80% dmg next highest malus
Pistols 75% dmg least malus

So you must consider the speed penalty which favors pistols and there is also I believe the reticle closing times to consider which again favor pistols most and cannons least.
The dmg/time for the different wepaon types are ofset by the relative defence powers of the users. I've seen no evidence that suggests that rifles and pistols are at this initially proposed (a long time ago) 75 - 80 % as of yet either.

Pistol and rifle recticle closure is pretty much equal, if anything rifles are faster than pistols beyond point blank.