View Full Version : Drugs
Dribble Joy
22-02-07, 14:38
On vent last night we briefly started talking about drugs in 2.2, partly about the relog trick (which apparently has been fixed now), but the issue of the actual flash itself remained.
Again, I'm just going to throw this one up in the air, though I do have a view on it.
Flash duration should depend on the umber of drugs you've taken, but when a drug runs and you get a flash, you should allways be able to take another dose of what you were on to remove it (flashes should depend on the type of drug, so a redflash induced flash should not be removable by beast or something).
This of course would build up for as long as you are on the drugs, untill the time when you come off them (say after a long OP fight or cave run), and you would have to wait for the flash to go.
You could of course never come off drugs, with your char being on them permanently.
Flash removal could be accelerated by recreation units (which have little use atm).
I agree with all of the above, but also suggest a limit to how badly you can get flashed. I've had times where I was pinned to the ground, unable to see my screen enough to TAKE another drug - I couldn't make out if my inventory screen was open, much less right click on a drug. If the level that flash maxes out is just enough that you can see the screen, that would be nice.
Dribble Joy
22-02-07, 18:25
Yes, there should be a visual limit to the flash, though the effects on char movement could perhaps continue to escalate.
You should be able to right-click if you die after taking 3 drugs.
Lifewaster
22-02-07, 19:29
I agree, if you have drug-flash, you should always be able to take another of that drug (or drugs if the flash is from multiples) , and put off the flash for another 5/10 mins.
And instead , a more suitable disadvantage to drug-addiction should be introduced, such as lesser positive effects(but keeping the full mainskill boosts ie:dex) , or lesser durations..
One idea is to apply increasingly shorter durations each time its taken , while the flash is always completely removed....so an addict will eventually end up having to take the 10 min drug every 2 mins or so.....
The effect would be that you never end up totally incapacitated by drug use during a fight, it just becomes more expensive to continue using the setup.....untill you eventually go and sit through the final flash (or get ressurected)
Yes, there should be a visual limit to the flash, though the effects on char movement could perhaps continue to escalate.
But never to a point where you can't move / select items etc, like it is now.
I don't want to get screwed over and lose a nice item for no reason what so ever (I may aswell drop one of my ten most expensive items on the floor otherwise), just because I wanted to pvp for a few hours with a setup that KK decided it was impossible to play without a large amount of drugging.
there must always be some penalty for taking drugs, overboosting yourself, but at the same time this penalty should become more and more aggresive. Those that bust their heads, making decent setups that use 1-2 drugs should get very small punishment, which at random times can be overriden. However there has to be a limit somewhere. We can't allow people fighting with 8, 10 and even more drugs and expect to let them just do that.
After a certain amount of drugs, you must get guaranteed flash which will be the roice to pay, for taking the easy road to success :)
While we are on the topic of drugflash, for the love of god - Lower the flash on alcohol!
I would like my toon not to fall over when he takes down a few beers...I mean, he is addicted to 4x drugs and all - he can handle himself.
Dribble Joy
22-02-07, 20:40
One idea is to apply increasingly shorter durations each time its taken , while the flash is always completely removed....so an addict will eventually end up having to take the 10 min drug every 2 mins or so.....
Can't say I agree with that, it would make long fights a nightmare when every couple of minutes (remembering that time flies in a fight) you have to stop, open you inv and pop another.
As to the penalty for drug use, other than the flash, there's allways the cost and the transport issue. Continuously popping drugs to remain flash-free permanently would require a lot of drugs, and effort (either finanital or otherwise) would be needed to maintain a stable supply.
Limiting the number of drugs at a time? Personally, no I would not like a limit. Permanently being on 10 drugs would require serious investment in time and/or cash.
I think the flash effect really does need looking into, as with people not being able to fully cap their weapons and resists in ways previously achieved before, drugs are going to become even more important to setups.
Ooh 8| drugs are bad :lol:
Dribble Joy
23-02-07, 03:25
I think the flash effect really does need looking into, as with people not being able to fully cap their weapons and resists in ways previously achieved before, drugs are going to become even more important to setups.
Well as I see it, drugs are an accessory, not a necessity. Even the current 2.2 drugs have significant benefits.
Drug effets should represent the cost (in all respects) of their use, but not penalise people for their use.
Apocalypsox
23-02-07, 05:23
yar excuse my lazy arse tonight as i havnt the entire thread but imma voice my opinion here and agree with Drib.
If your high on drugs, And you take more drugs, Your not gonna lose your high :lol:
now lets say you take a bunch of drugs and continuously take them through an op battle to not lose your edge. You leave the op and your drugs start to lose the buzz, YOUR FUCKED.
The drugflash lasts 15 minutes, You cant relog it and your basically clusterfuckingly drunk for 15 minutes.
Well as I see it, drugs are an accessory, not a necessity. Even the current 2.2 drugs have significant benefits.
Drug effets should represent the cost (in all respects) of their use, but not penalise people for their use.
Sorry man I've just reread my previous post and it kinda sounds like I want rid of the flash altogether, which isn't the case. I very much like your idea of always being able to remove the flash by popping another load of pills, and therefore postponing the glued to the floor can't see anything effect until you either die or are done fighting.
Dribble Joy
23-02-07, 15:48
Well I was commenting more on the necessity (or perceived necessity) of drugs rather than about flash.
Anyway...
Problem is that too many people see drugs as a necessity not an accessory - they're constantly striving for weapons/armour that are further and further out of their char's reach in a bid to gain an advantage and as Jini said, there must be some penalty for that. If someone chooses to roll a PE over a spy because they have better armour/resists then you have to accept they cannot use the highest end TL weapons and therefore might do slightly less damage. If you then choose to drug your ass off to reach the highest TL weapons and therefore have access to exactly the same arsenal as the spy but with better defences then you have to accept that comes with a penalty. I agree the current drugflash situation needs work but to be able to completely override it is not an option. Lets face it, money isn't really a problem for any serious player on the retail servers.
The main problem is that in 2.1 the PE has become the char of choice for a lot of PvPers purely because they can take a multitude of drugs with no penalty due to an exploit, and gain access to high end weapons not designed for them, thus gaining an advantage. This exploit has been fixed and the reality and consequences of such a setup have been revealed. Now people want this changed so they can regain their advantage, not entirely conducive to a 'balancing project' - you want spy offence with PE defences, all this will give us is the current 2.1 situation where PE's >> spies. Now I know I'm gonna get jumped on by all the people who have used this exploit to get great PE setups, but this is finally drugs as they were always intended - use as many as you like but there are consequences.
On vent last night we briefly started talking about drugs in 2.2, partly about the relog trick (which apparently has been fixed now), but the issue of the actual flash itself remained.
Again, I'm just going to throw this one up in the air, though I do have a view on it.
Flash duration should depend on the umber of drugs you've taken, but when a drug runs and you get a flash, you should allways be able to take another dose of what you were on to remove it (flashes should depend on the type of drug, so a redflash induced flash should not be removable by beast or something).
This of course would build up for as long as you are on the drugs, untill the time when you come off them (say after a long OP fight or cave run), and you would have to wait for the flash to go.
You could of course never come off drugs, with your char being on them permanently.
Flash removal could be accelerated by recreation units (which have little use atm).
Everything about this sounds good tbh
Cant really say more.. it just.. makes sence..
It is THE way it should be! :D
On vent last night we briefly started talking about drugs in 2.2, partly about the relog trick (which apparently has been fixed now), but the issue of the actual flash itself remained.
Again, I'm just going to throw this one up in the air, though I do have a view on it.
Flash duration should depend on the umber of drugs you've taken, but when a drug runs and you get a flash, you should allways be able to take another dose of what you were on to remove it (flashes should depend on the type of drug, so a redflash induced flash should not be removable by beast or something).
This of course would build up for as long as you are on the drugs, untill the time when you come off them (say after a long OP fight or cave run), and you would have to wait for the flash to go.
You could of course never come off drugs, with your char being on them permanently.
Flash removal could be accelerated by recreation units (which have little use atm).
/Singned Very good idea IMO!
Dribble Joy
26-02-07, 14:23
8|
Erm.. cheers...
Anyway, if KK doesn't have any particular stance on this aspect of drugs, why not just put this in and see how it goes?
If the only penalty to drug use was the money and effort to get them, everyone and his mom would roll drugged to fuck PEs or whatever class will benefit the most. Just like it is now.
Seriously, it's so easy to get the drugs right now, the prices/research times/materials would need to be increased a lot. Simply because money is not a problem. Let's just say there's too many "ways" of making insane amounts of money and/or drugs without any real effort.
Like JJ said on top of page 2, people see drugs as a necessity and not as an accessory. Just because it's like that now.
The more drugs one takes, the worse his flash should be. And make that a guaranteed flash. Say you can fight for 1 hour using 1 drug, 30 minutes using 2, 15 minutes using 3, just divide the time by 2 for every other drug.
No flash for that time if you keep redrugging but once that time is up, you get a flash and are definately out of combat for quite some time.
That way it would normalize, people would stop taking drugs into every damn setup possible yet you could still make cray setups for duels or the lame zonewhore fight.
The more drugs one takes, the worse his flash should be. And make that a guaranteed flash. Say you can fight for 1 hour using 1 drug, 30 minutes using 2, 15 minutes using 3, just divide the time by 2 for every other drug.
No flash for that time if you keep redrugging but once that time is up, you get a flash and are definately out of combat for quite some time.
That way it would normalize, people would stop taking drugs into every damn setup possible yet you could still make cray setups for duels or the lame zonewhore fight.
Now that's the best suggestion I've heard. maybe up the time a little but I definately like the concept.
Now that's the best suggestion I've heard. maybe up the time a little but I definately like the concept.
Well, it would need tweaking but i like my idea. :)
I'd also put in some randomness, so you couldnt just pop 3 drugs and go pking safely for 15 minutes or so, everytime you'd retake drugs there was a slight chance to get an early flash. And it wouldn't be exact 15 minutes, rather something random between 10 and 20.
All this only if classes were balanced without taking drugs into account too much.
So you could now boost your class quite a bit by taking more drugs than just one or two but the downside would be the threat of a drugflash midfight and the definite downtime afterwards.
And there's already quite a few new powerful drugs now. The problem is that people feel like they have to take those to counter the negatives on their implants. I think my whole drug idea might change this for the better.
Be in line with everyone else or take the risk of a painful death due to an early drugflash. But until then, excel the other, non drugged people. Sounds fair to me.
And if you live to tell, you're out of combat for quite some time to recover from that mad drug induced killing spree. :lol:
Dribble Joy
27-02-07, 22:56
Randomness in combat is not something I would like. This is NC, not FFXI.
As to cost of drugs, well you could just make them more expensive.
You currently get 3 blue drugs from an R10, make that one and ease of drug production is tripled. Make blue drugs require 3 chems to make not one.
Remove mainstat effects (though clearly this would require tweaks in other areas) and drugs would become much less attractive.
Anyway, I've said what I think about the subject.
Without any randomness for drugs, everyone would use them. You could just pop the drugs, start a stop watch and easily go fight until time is up. Then you could just wait up safely in a UG/safezone and go again.
Sounds stupid.
And on the costs, it's the worst factor to keep people from drugs. There's too many easy ways to get money and drugs. You could never fix all those. :(
Liquid_Ice
28-02-07, 17:14
I personally dont like the idea of being able to continue to use drugs clearing flash until you want to stop. It would totally imbalance things.
Well I saw one PE with a barretta (dex 113) on the TS, so if you drug like a dirty slag you should be able to reach most weapons.
What would this do to combat spies? I would much rather drug all day have more str/armor options and highend rifles at my desposal being a drugged up PE than a combat spy..
Again like all the things I say I could be wrong .
Dribble Joy
28-02-07, 17:39
Without any randomness for drugs, everyone would use them. You could just pop the drugs, start a stop watch and easily go fight until time is up. Then you could just wait up safely in a UG/safezone and go again.
Sounds stupid.
Reducing necessity for drugs won't be affected by making their use a pain in the arse, it will just add frustration in doing something that you should be able to do.
Making drugs less of a benefit and making them harder to aquire (time as opposed to hard cash).
As for waiting for flash, I was thinking for each dose after the second causes flash time equal to the drug length.
If an OP fight lasts 90 mins, and you're on 3 drugs, that would be four and a half hours of flash.
I personally dont like the idea of being able to continue to use drugs clearing flash until you want to stop. It would totally imbalance things.
Only if the effects of drugs themselves are unbalancing.
As they are, drugs are probably still too beneficial.
What would this do to combat spies? I would much rather drug all day have more str/armor options and highend rifles at my desposal being a drugged up PE than a combat spy..
A PE with a tl113 weapon will do less dmg/time than a spy with one, this is not 2.1 remember.
Liquid_Ice
28-02-07, 17:51
A PE with a tl113 weapon will do less dmg/time than a spy with one, this is not 2.1 remember.
But isn't your damage mitigation higher than a spies? The jake of all trades class shouldn't be able to use on a consistant basis weapons deligated to a specialized class. And when I say specialized I mean spies take a con/str/psi hit to be able to use those weapons. Then again I am not even on the test server so I apologize for talking out of turn. Its good to know people are out there working with ideas to create a good balance..
As for waiting for flash, I was thinking for each dose after the second causes flash time equal to the drug length.
Adding time as a nerf for drugs wont work people will just get ressurected and woop drugflash gone.
drugs are to good as it is making them not drugflash u if u take new drugs would only make them MORE used i think, druggie PEs everywhere.
I think the body should be able to form an immunity after time when the drugs have been used
Adding time as a nerf for drugs wont work people will just get ressurected and woop drugflash gone.
drugs are to good as it is making them not drugflash u if u take new drugs would only make them MORE used i think, druggie PEs everywhere.
PEs aren't the only class that gets benefits from drugs o_O
Besides, getting a rez isn't always possible. But if it is possible, then fair play for playing the game as it was meant to be played. As a team.
PEs aren't the only class that gets benefits from drugs
the one who benefits most i think. as well as spies. But look at today ingame what i see is PEs when i run around the map on my poor tank either its monk teams or PEs pes are the single most viable class BECAUSE of drugs so if u make them more viable with less drug flash wont be just see more of them running around ? we NEED balancing and drugs make PEs go from good to ubar
In my opinion, the reason PEs gain the most benefit from drugs is because they need drugs to get on-par with other pure classes except spies (There are very few viable weapons a PE can use undrugged). But on the other hand, a spy (bar snipers and droners) is not fit for pvp if he doesn't take drugs, no matter what way you look at it.
Some people take 4+ drugs for pvp (I've even heard of someone taking 9 drugs, outside NF) on their characters. Go on neoskiller and make a setup for a monk or tank using 4+ drugs or as many drugs as possible, obviously you'll see the difference. The fact is monks and tanks don't need drugs to be viable for pvp, spies need them and PEs need them for 9 setups out of 10.
This is for 2.1 atleast.
[edit]
I don't think PEs are most viable for solo play because of drugs. I think they're most viable because of their mainskills being all-round. They heal well, they take damage well and they do damage well. Thus, reducing the need for a team.
If you read the starter emails when you create a PE, it says there that the PE is a drug based class (I think it's those emails that says it). My guess is that they were full well intended to be centered around drugs, therefore gaining one of the highest benefits from drugs.
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