View Full Version : Players versus Environment
In addition to the other topics, we'd like to hear your thoughts about combat versus NPCs:
* How do you feel about their overall difficulty (damage, health, armor)?
* Starting at which monster rank should a solo, capped player be unable to kill an NPC?
* Are the NPCs in the starting areas manageable by new players?
* Are the rewards from killing monsters good now (considering the thougher mobs drop more rareparts)?
* Are there any mobs that are not worth killing?
* Should there be any changes to the credit rewards for killing high levels mobs (some players suggested the credit reward be removed)?
Dribble Joy
26-02-07, 17:48
Note that I haven't really done much other than high level solo PvM, mad copbots to titans.
* How do you feel about their overall difficulty (damage, health, armor)?
Dmg is about right, though the HP is just daft. It makes leveling even more tedious. The armour system I have no problem with.
* Starting at which monster rank should a solo, capped player be unable to kill an NPC?
Given the current AI, the use of terrain allows players to tackle mobs far in excess of their levels, as in the case in 2.1 and on the 2.2 TS. However from a theoretical perspective, probably around level 75+.
Roughly, overall it should be like 2.1 but with higher dmg.
* Are the NPCs in the starting areas manageable by new players?
* Are the rewards from killing monsters good now (considering the thougher mobs drop more rareparts)?
* Are there any mobs that are not worth killing?
Not tested this yet alas.
* Should there be any changes to the credit rewards for killing high levels mobs (some players suggested the credit reward be removed)?
Mob spawned mobs (Eg. El Farid etc.) should not generate cash reward.
As to how this could be managed I'm unsure.
Perhaps all spawned mobs could be unique, and could be tagged to identify them as rewardless.
As to removing cash reward entirely.... this would be interesting. It would make loot more important (to sell at Yo's), which would in turn make TRA skilling and vehicle of increased necessity.
Come to think of it, it would be a good idea, it promotes more activity in general.
Might affect droners slightly.. though the xp they generally generate is probably a big enough counter to this.
Mob spawned mobs could be set to drop nothing. A slight increase in selling prices might be warranted.
Lifewaster
26-02-07, 18:02
The newbie lvling is extremely difficult atm, my testings shows a typical noob requires about 50-100 shots to kill a /2 mob (eg roach). Average dmg dealt with a tl 1-10 weapon vs a rank 1-10 mob = 2 dmg .
I feel that PvE is somewhat balanced at rank 70 with artifact rare weapons , but below that its an increasingly difficult curve the lower lvl you become.
(50 times slower , and more expensive in ammo/boosters to kill a roach as prime example)
Dribble Joy
26-02-07, 18:23
I get the feeling that the mob difficulty curve is either a negative exponential (rises sharply and then flattens off) or is linear, rather than a positive expontential (like a parabola). It means higher level mobs are managable, but lower ones aren't.
There's another issue though, with high level mobs, that affects 2.1 as well as 2.2, and could be solved.
At the very high end, like DoY tunnels, ceres caves and MC5. The dmg is so high that people are near driven to less than legal means in order to complete them.
What we could do is to cap dmg/time from mobs at around lvl 100 and then only increase hp. This would make these areas harder, but not near impossible without abusing the game.
Lifewaster
26-02-07, 18:28
* Starting at which monster rank should a solo, capped player be unable to kill an NPC?
This is a tricky issue, because its effects trickle down to lower lvls. If you determine a rank 70 mob to hard for a capped runner , then a rank 50 mob becomes too hard for a /40 runner etc .......which is kinda whats already the case in 2.2 atm.
I'd advocate a 2 tier mob system , where mobs up to rank 50 remain easy to hunt as in 2.1 , then the higher ranked mobs (especially the rare part dropping mobs) can have the new 2.2 toughness.
As I already mentioned, the low lvl mobs are just way too hard for noobs to lvl up atm.
So far the few mobs I've tried to kill has resulted in my character being totally owned by the mob... When I shoot a mob, nice big numbers come off the mobs, but it barely dents the mob's health bar.
I don't think any mob can be classified as not worth killing. On 2.1 capped players all hunt certain mobs for the best XP, money and Loot. Basically any mob that doesn't drop a rare, or something valuable is ignored. (Anyone remember the Filter Heart 2's in NC1?) With the new 2.2 change of more rares dropping hopefully some more mobs will be dropping rares.
Regarding the loot cash. I've noticed it costs more to buy parts and chems in 2.2 so the cash from the loot should be raised to reflect this, and also the money cap increased.
The idea of having no cash rewards from a mob is interesting, so making a player take the loot from the mob to sell at Yo's is good, so long as the amount of loot gives the right amount of money. This would also would put Barters into more use, so they can get more cash for your loot.
Dribble Joy
26-02-07, 19:35
No mobs that are particuarly pointless to kill, but more could be done to make some of them more sought after or necessary to hunt. Some mobs, though not necessarily exclusively, could be sources of particular items, and might appear in cirtain area types, which would give noobs a role in the wider scheme of things (since high level players wouldn't get the loot).
Put them back to 2.1! They wernt broke, your mechanics were
From the things I've read from Lifewaster, the issues with Low end leveling is so unbelievibly terrible that it must be changed ASAP. 100 shots to kill a roach is very bad indeed. :mad:
Put them back to 2.1! They wernt broke, your mechanics were
The state of 2.1 as of PvE.. I'd like to see a lot of changes, hunting high end dungeons for great rewards is far too easy at the moment due to numerous exploits.
Dribble Joy
26-02-07, 21:22
Ceres caves: Too easy to get in a safe area and AoE from, level design issue rather than mob power (which is far too high if it was more open).
MC5: Mob dmg is too high so people don't go there often unless they are abusing and/or a droner. Tunnels are similar in some respects.
High end mob dmg is too high in 2.1, so like I said, cap the mob dmg beyond lvl 90/100 and just increase hp and/or armour. Redesign/change the level types.
More mobs in the caves than in the WL, so it would still be hard.
High end mob dmg is too high in 2.1, so like I said, cap the mob dmg beyond lvl 90/100 and just increase hp and/or armour. Redesign/change the level types.
More mobs in the caves than in the WL, so it would still be hard.
This doesn't really solve anything, if you can last for 5 minutes in MC5 then you can last for any amount of time if you wanted to. This just makes it much more time consuming and doesn't really make it any more difficult or any more challenging, which is what makes pvm appealing (among other things).
[edit]
I can see the advantages of removing cash rewards from mobs to increase player relations with traders and such, this would also solve the problem of monks getting extremely rich from caving with aoe (while having low STR/TRA - not being able to carry much loot to sell) while leaving classes like spies and PEs being very poor in comparison. I support this. Yet I feel it may just be slightly too hard to gain money as this loot:money balance would be very hard to get right.
Dribble Joy
27-02-07, 01:55
If mobs are generally harder (at least high level ones) then some thing will be need to be done about the very high level caves. Otherwise people won't last at all.
Obsidian X
27-02-07, 02:11
Mobs health is stupidly high, and needs a nerf right accross the board IMO. I was going to go into more detail but I think its all been said already in this thread.
PS: A big fat no to the loot cash removal - we don't all have barterers, clans, or other cash cows. :mad:
Doc Holliday
27-02-07, 05:43
agreed with obsidian. dont remove the cash reward from mobs. it would cause a lot of problems which no one has commented on or explored. examples would be the new players who start fresh chars and cant afford a gun so end up at level 20 with the basic knife they started with.
Higher difficulty on big ass mobs where a substantial reward is nice as it would serve to encourage teams but i think this should be thought about considerably. we dont want the whole are we gonna pvp? do we have a ppu to turn in to are we gonna pve? do we have a ppu with us.
mobs are now very powerful in relation to runners. Particularly the spiderbots and other mid level mobs, can easily kill every runner not having the best protection there is. Spiderbots and WBs do a lot of damage types, and xray which there is hardly any armor for it. How can a low level runner kill anything in this game in order to level? It's not just mobs are difficult to kill, but huge amounts of ammunition leads to bankruptcy.
Furthermore there are too many money sinks in the game now.
Everything costs way to much: ammo, nanites, drugs.
Barter is less efficient.
Mobs give less cash when killed, but require 4 times the effort (some, 10x that)
Seraphin[69]
27-02-07, 07:51
The mobs are way too hard to kill, even with vehicules like a revealer (cyclops for exemple) and fighting warbots or spiderbot is a REAL pain.
I've never managed to get to DoY level 3 tunnel to test them out yet as the level 2 is undoable ATM
We're potentially looking at implants that weaken, armour that weakens, nanites that cost money, gloves that need poking, mobs with much additional health, that are going to eat up a tonne of ammo...
And now we may have to loot everything to sell the junk? Whilst mobs drop more techs, the cash ingame ultimately only comes from missions and from mobs. Whilst you may have an appartment full of rare weapons, you're only going to sell those to other players, and if the very base of the money-chain vanishes, they aren't going to be worth as much anyhow. This will make life much more difficult for solo players.
I'm not saying that all these factors should be rejected off-hand, it's certainly an interesting idea (I quite like the idea of more flexible, varied and rewarding mission system) and I have no idea what your ideas are for the value of loot, but this really seems like too much too soon, and more busy-work for players. Whilst money is meaningless on the test server, the economy as a whole cannot be tested, and this is one of the most subtle and important aspects of the game. I urge conservatism in altering it.
I would want to see a system, in which a runner is able to sustain self without the need of cash. My runners in 2.1 are all broke, because the only thing I do is pvp. We must find a system in which after a certain level, GR costs (which is what made me go bankrupt in 2.1) is not an issue anymore. Same goes for when you die. In short, in order to accumulate and raise the fun NC is famous off, a runner must pay 4k GR costs to join a fight and another 6k if he dies. All this cash goes back in the system, simply because no clan usually leaves there GRs open.
Therefore, give GRs to the public, we deserve it. And try giving cash to occupying OPs in clans directly. Maybe a fixed amount of cash per time, and see how it goes
because no clan usually leaves there GRs open.
actually this works. i was doing a test with several ops. if the op-security is set to open/open, u'll EARN money with it. same with gr's. i dont know the rate is up to anymore from gr'ing and open op, but that was the most reason, why gaba was allways open for us: a) cash from in+out gr'ing ppls | b) more cash from the op itself when its open/open settings.
oh and btw. i're not broke, but i am using a pe for making money everyday on a rhino. collecting junk+cash-reward. but this is so boring after several weeks. i thought about going for other mobs, but since i dont hack, i cannot go for warbots for example. and it takes more time than firemobs for another example.
when evo2.2 goes to retail-server, i'll have to switch chars... cause its a joke to take drugs on to gun a reveler + rhino for making cash.
Dribble Joy
27-02-07, 12:59
We could just implement a no cash for kill system and at least see if it could work, it can allways be altered later.
Mission rewards could be higher (we need a mission rework anyway, to bring in higher level mobs).
Higher value of looted items.
Make sure loot items on low level mobs is valuable and doesn't weign much.
I suspect things are a little too hard right at the moment. I've just been trying to solo the cave at crp with a hybrid monk. He's wearing the following armour:
Tangent high density krokydolith suit.
Light kevlar helmet + Light kevlar choker.
Light kevlar vest + Heavy poison protection belt.
Light kevlar pants + Medium kevlar boots.
Giving armour poison resists of Head 89, Torso 180, Legs 94
Under constitution, apart from 50 base in body health (32 after reductions, giving a health pool of 576), everything else is in poison resist (127 after bonuses).
He has 110ppu, 110apu, 110fcs and 71ppw (and a psi pool of 427).
Using blessed heal + blessed protector + blessed heal sanctum (combined with munching medkits) and attacking using a variety of spells, with the highest tl being blessed energy beam (60), he is just barely able to survive fighting a single 72/72 mob. The second another one appears it's basically time to flee.
Is that really how you intend things to be?
Dribble Joy
28-02-07, 02:10
Part of the issue is whether that for specific mobs/caves (beyond a cirtain level) you should be expected to be using armours (you can't ask people to lom their resists before each cave) against their dmg types.
A single lvl 72 mob should be a challenge (though less of one that the last poster mentioned).
6stringsamurai
28-02-07, 06:50
I think its crap that aoe is the only way to do caves/mc5 the way they need to be thought out better so pes and spys have a place. Neocrons balance has always been tipped toward monks and its about time that changes.
Try rolling an apu monk (or hybrid) on the test server and you'll see that they have been quite massively nerfed. In terms of PvE, I think the most notable thing for me is that they now need line of sight to be able to cast their spells, whereas before you could tuck yourself behind any available scenery and keep firing away. And for PvP the reduction in casting rate, aswell as the new system of 3 body regions for damage calculation, both serve to further weaken the class.
Ok, here is what I did you bitches, for your eyes only :p :
I made a fresh monk, named Pyro. After spawn, I walked the "Pro's" way, in which you enter the hacknet, die and instead of losing 1000k from Gring costs you only lose 150cr :cool: (why is this not fixed yet?). Before that I tried killing one of the spiders in n00b mc5, ranked 2/2. It took me a lot of chasing of the beast and a lot of time (5 mins at least) and a whole psi mana pool. I didnt touched any psi settings I left the ones proposed. So this is clearly no way to level. In the end i gained 35 cr which is less than the psi booster that you need.
Next, I tried an easy mission from the terminal and choose to kill black roaches. P1, sewers in search of black roaches which simply aren't there... After 5 years ingame, and I cant remember where the fuck are these critters...
After I stopped searching them, remember I am a n00b with no agility no stamina no atl nothing, and of course no boosters, I tried killing other creatures in the same dungeon. Thats impossible while using these low level psi spells, much less their condition (50ish%). And I need to kill 5 of them to get the mission done.
N00b experience needs a slight boost, better weapons as a start -make them artifact whats the big deal?- and a lot more "accessories, like stamina boosters, Psi boosters, medkits. Also an inventory with a full series of level 1 implants is not a bad idea, to introduce noobs to the game.Notice that I am no speaking of starter cash which can lead to exploiting, but items
Try rolling an apu monk (or hybrid) on the test server and you'll see that they have been quite massively nerfed. In terms of PvE, I think the most notable thing for me is that they now need line of sight to be able to cast their spells, whereas before you could tuck yourself behind any available scenery and keep firing away. And for PvP the reduction in casting rate, aswell as the new system of 3 body regions for damage calculation, both serve to further weaken the class.
Monks are no different than the rest of the classes, and this is what I have seen so far. Yes, they now need LoS in order to hit, so this exploit will go, and it damn well has to go. There is an issue with very low frequency high TL spells, and another issue of resists that needs to be balanced, but we MUST be careful how fast spells will be able to shoot, because there is no loading time for spells.
Also, aiming with monks is now a lot easier with the reticle than it was before, particularly when you have to deal with very fast moving runners.
Lifewaster
01-03-07, 21:52
My Noob hunting testing since patch 166 seems improved.....
Tl 2 spell vs rank 2 mob = 3 dmg per shot , maybe 15 shots to kill , approx 1 psi booster used (booster cost 390nc , reward 30nc.....)
Tl2 spell vs rank 6 mob = 3 dmg per shot , maybe 25 shots to kill , approx 2 boosters used. (reward 60nc + bones/junk worth maybe 600nc)
Tl 12 spell vs rank 6 mob = 4 dmg per shot , mayeb 20 shots to kill, approx 2 boosters used. (reward 60nc + bones/junk worth 600 nc)
######
Overall it seems economically viable to lvl a noob now , exp gain seemed also viable .... its at about 1/2 the speed of retail now. Big improvement so far.
The fire spell monks at MB bunker r still bugged to hell
james_finn
01-03-07, 23:13
Ok heres my information about PvM from my experience this evening of leveling a Tank.
PvM seems too slow, this game is meant to be cyber punk with all this 'great' new technological weapons. The game needs to be faster - I feel that the weapons need their frequency increased, psi modules need their frequency increased.
The game feels like one big time sink.
/Delphi
Lifewaster
01-03-07, 23:37
psi modules need their frequency increased.
I think the high TL apu stuffs should be about 60-80 freq , they are 40 atm , but still feel too slow.
As you have seen in the latest test server patch notes, we have adjusted the monster spawn density in many dungeons. Now we would like to know from you if you have encountered any other important/popular dungeons and level spots on the test server where the spawn density is still too high. Too high means insane amounts of monsters in close vicinity.
Please post these zones with the full zone name and a short description.
As you have seen in the latest test server patch notes, we have adjusted the monster spawn density in many dungeons. Now we would like to know from you if you have encountered any other important/popular dungeons and level spots on the test server where the spawn density is still too high. Too high means insane amounts of monsters in close vicinity.
Please post these zones with the full zone name and a short description.
Did a chaos caves run last night. (Dangerous canyon 3? Whatever there is a warp to from the construct). Spawn seemed quite reasonable, although there were no leuitenants on this run (as the leuitentenants spawn more, could make things messier of course). Also ventured down to graves, where spawn seemed OK, but one snake could waste my 80 poison resist, and 130+ poision armour runner within seconds.
Aww I really enjoyed having places like Regants and CRP cave absolutely swarming with mobs until the point where it's hard to run through them all :(
But, I'll have to check the new changes out.
Lifewaster
02-03-07, 20:20
I would like to suggest the Poison DOT mob dmg be adjusted/lowered in Chaos Cave and Graves .....
Its really very hard for a non-ppu to live more then 3 seconds when the stacks hit them (even with full armor and poison resists setup).....as a PPU you need to Constantly cast holy catharsis on EVERY person in the cave, (in addition to shields and heals) and even with this you dont usually manage to remove the stacks in time.....it just takes 2-3 stacks to kill any non-ppu in 2-3 seconds, so you have about 1 second to get the Holy Cath on sopmeone every moment after mob fires at someone.
awkward silence
03-03-07, 11:19
I would like to suggest the Poison DOT mob dmg be adjusted/lowered in Chaos Cave and Graves .....
Its really very hard for a non-ppu to live more then 3 seconds when the stacks hit them (even with full armor and poison resists setup).....as a PPU you need to Constantly cast holy catharsis on EVERY person in the cave, (in addition to shields and heals) and even with this you dont usually manage to remove the stacks in time.....it just takes 2-3 stacks to kill any non-ppu in 2-3 seconds, so you have about 1 second to get the Holy Cath on sopmeone every moment after mob fires at someone.
I second this. The 72/72 mobs do way too much damage with their dots
i'm worried about general mobs level. Lowering the density is from my point of view not a solution, but a new problem ..., a least for newbie leveling mobs, we need a large number of these to complete missions ! That's not good to have to wait for them to repop.
So first, there isn't enough mobs, and secondly they are too strong : my capped buffed spy is outhealed by a simple aggressor captain !!
Has any thought been given to what these newly tough mobs will mean for certain special missions like those for the mini resistor chips? For the freedom fighters one I can't imagine someone being able to farm all of the mobs in the required time (I mean come on...35 doomreapers followed by 50 warbots...), if they can even manage to kill them at all. And that 120/120 pain easer wielding guy in the ruined crahn church in the outzone of neocron...how on earth are you ever going to damage him enough within the allocated time to get the mission completed.
True! Its damn well hard enough killing him already let alone with the BEEFY mobs of 2.2
Lifewaster
06-03-07, 21:21
######## since patch 167 (retail skill gain speed)########
Rank 5/6 apu hunting /6 mobs
Time required to get from 12 -13 PSI (2200exp) = 30 minutes (killed approx 30 mobs @ 1 min per mob .....as fast as I could)
Time required to get from 8 INT to 9 INT (1377 exp) = 60 minutes (kill approx 60 mobs @ 1 min per kill)
The exp gain seems normal for the amount of mobs killed.......... but the time required to kill is a lot slower. ie: (1 min/30 shots in 2.2) vs (5 seconds/3 shots in 2.1)
Rough approximation = now 10-12 times slower to lvl up a noob.
Rough approximation = now 10-12 times slower to lvl up a noob.Hmm, imagine how tedious it is going to be to get those last 10 levels (from 90-100).
Lifewaster
06-03-07, 21:58
Hmm, imagine how tedious it is going to be to get those last 10 levels (from 90-100).
TBH, I'm not sure that will be the case, the main reason noobs lvling is slow is cos of the much lower dmg per shot they make (2-7 dmg with a tl 12 wep)
At higher lvls things wont be as bad. I think only about 2-3 times slower at that stage.
If anything all leveling should be made faster.. Considering pve in NC is the most mind numbingly dull thing you can possible do with your time dont make us waste more of it. getting cash should be the biggest grind in the game imho.
im hoping this is being changed/fixed.
I actually like PVE much better than PVP, precisely because of the ability to use terrain to your advantage. I often think of my gameplay as going on a Safari. However, if the rewards for killing mobs are cut down and mission rewards are not increased, I may have to look for another game. Right now the neoterm missions are a joke.
Maybe I should start a PVE-focussed clan and name it "Safari"... :D
I think only about 2-3 times slower at that stage.
That's way too long for some peoples liking..
Burgeri's notice is to be considered. Players who like PvE more than PvP are often forgotten whereas they are more than we could think.
Lifewaster
08-03-07, 20:24
####since patch 168##################################
Seems like noob lvling is a bit easier again, my APU got from 12->13 PSI (2400exp) after about 10 minutes killing rank 5 mobs.....8-9 int took 20 mins.
Mobs died in about 8 shots , 14 dmg per shot from tl 12 beam
Feels like we are back to 2-3 times retail speed (not 10-12)
it's an absolute desaster in 159 :mad:
My former 11/29 PE does about 1/3 damage but has been reassignet lvl 40/29
The result is, I get no rewards from mobs I can handle (okay 3nc from a lvl 16 mutant something) That doesn't even remotely cover ammo cost, and neither does the crummy tooth thing it drops.
Anything even remotely my new rank is far too resitant. I cannot even scratch a lvl 34 big poisonous spider. At this rate my character is absolutely impossible to lvl :eek:
I don't know what this "rebalancing" was supposed to do, but for low level chars as mine, it's a desaster.
Way to go, to attract new players :lol:
KK just put it back to how it was, it was fine then.
I got to about 15% health when I decided to randomly attack a small spiderbot, being a capped spy its kind of embarrassing. The logs say my resists were 49% too (from skills, armor, and nanites)
A decaying brute hit me for 240 force/ 360 piercing too under the same conditions. 600 dmg from 1 attack is a LITTLE much, considering I have nearly the max defense I can get from both piercing and force.
KK just put it back to how it was, it was fine then.
Best suggestion yet! I loved the game then, 2.1 is what convinced me to buy the game and pay monthly for it and trust me I know almost all the mmos that exist and this is the only one I have payed for so I can't just go and play something else please change PVE back to how it was or you could just lower nc rewards but make the mobs like they were before.
If I had to describe the new PVE in only one word this would be it: Boring
Well I wouldn't enjoy playing Neocron right now so all I can do is sit and wait for things to be changed back if it becomes apparent that isn't going to happen then I guess my only option is to cancel my subscription and I really don't want to do that. :mad:
Ok so you won't go back to 2.1 I understand that theres no point in throwing all your work away but the changing of PVE probably took you 2 minutes to implement so its not exatly hard work thrown away, you just put a few numbers in and bang everything becomes overpowered so I have no other problems with 2.2 apart from PVE so please change that back and 2.2 will be more or less perfect.
PvE for lower level players needs to be changed, I was doing 30ish damage per shot to aggie captains...and now I do 4 damage per shot to them, not to mention I die from recieving one shot from them now.
totally unfun and unplayable..took me 2 minutes to kill a rat in the sewer as a test. ridiculous.
Can you tell us what you are hitting them with? What are your stats and the weapon stats? We need solid information to work from. Thanks.
N
Okay, here's some stats:
My /29 PE had an all mod 60s B1 Rifle, RC ~75, TC ~40 in 2.2 ~600 HP.
It got whipped up from 11/29 to 40/29, upon touching the rifle.
It used to make about 160 damage to a rat in 2.1, in 2.2 it made 27ish.
Killing a /34 Big Poisonous spider was posible in 2.1 when I was careful, now I can pump 5 magazines into it without taking more than 1/4 of its health and bein zerged to death by fierce poisonous spiders...
That made no sense at all and levelling was completely impossible. The only Mutant i could kill in 2.2 and still get a reward was a /16 mutant soldier. Gave a whopping 1NC, which covered about 1 of the 8 shots necessary to kill it. Everything tougher just roasted me in the time it took for me to fire off 4 or 5 shots. :mad:
I asked a GM about it and just got the reply "all levels have changed, look int he forum". My account is cancelled now.
Im not cancelling my account so soon, they only added this patch two days ago and Im sure they will soon realise how much it UNbalances PVE but if it becomes apparent KK aren't changing PVE to a much funner and managable level I will also join you in cancelling my account.
6stringsamurai
14-03-07, 04:48
you need to fix the combat ranking system they ranks ona newbie char with a 2 slot mendicant rifle is 11/4.....
* How do you feel about their overall difficulty (damage, health, armor)?
Mobs are far stronger for their tech level, especially those around the 30-40 mark. The life of the new mobs is a non issue, but their damage is out of wack (high).
* Starting at which monster rank should a solo, capped player be unable to kill an NPC?
I would say 120/120, with enough heals/nanites a tank should hack his way through the rest. This is a big deal considering that its hard to find anyone to level with these days.
* Are the NPCs in the starting areas manageable by new players?
No, no,no. Every new player I have met is ready to throw in the towel.
* Are the rewards from killing monsters good now (considering the thougher mobs drop more rareparts)?
No, the cash is very very low for most. And for mobs designed for people leveling the immediate cash is the best reward.
* Are there any mobs that are not worth killing?
Many mobs in groups of two (sometimes one) can kill my con capped tank and yet this tank recieves no reward for killing them!
* Should there be any changes to the credit rewards for killing high levels mobs (some players suggested the credit reward be removed)?
I don't see why, credit rewards is a great way for a player to generate income with out having to deal with the dull side of selling tech parts and loot. Also with the high price of vanity items like furniture and some vehicals, the grease of player grinding must continue.
Big concern, #1 thing to fix:
Lower the damage all mobs do,
Really lower 30-40tl mobs.
Fix player rank so a new player can actually level up on low level mobs. As it stands when a new player gets a weapon strong enough to kill a mob they want to, they can't get experiance for doing it.
Im not cancelling my account so soon, they only added this patch two days ago and Im sure they will soon realise how much it UNbalances PVE ...
My 30 days free play ended on tuesday, so it was cancel now or pay 3 months for me, and I'm sure as hell not paying for what it's like now :mad:
Really sad thing is, they obviously only betatested the whole thing with capped chars and maybe newborns. If anyone had ever tried the mid levels, this would not have happened. :(
Neocron was a fun game for me, for as long as it lasted...
I really enjoy the mobs today. However, higher xp would be nice, but otherwise these are fine. Warbots ought to be hard. Nice to have some challenge in the wastelands once more.
amount of reward both in XP and Cash in disproportionate to the amount of input (effort,time,damage,wastage). This in my opinion is down to a number of thing's combat ranks of mob's no longer reflect their level of toughness, the npc and player rank systems no longer parallel each other so a direct comparison between player and mob ranks can no longer be made thus rendering reward calculations inaccurate. This really needs to be addressed by either increasing the combat rank of mobs (without changing the strength). Or reducing the combat ranking of players to a more realistic level within the new system of calculation.
In short basicly the character combat ranking levels aren't really representative of the players power anymore. Base figures are way off and need to be reduced
From what i've experienced - anyone with a massive range can easily hunt.
I.e H-C Tanks, Spy/PE riflers... other classes or types are royally screwed over.
I can sit at max range and kill off grim chasers and persecutors pretty easily, and warbots as well - yes it takes more ammo to do and a bit more time, but it really doesnt make no odds. They die - I don't.
Cash is also less due to my (insane) combat rank of 85/ on my tank.
Anyhow, I digress - back to the story..
As soon as I enter their range, unless im using cover - im dead meat.
Im a capped tank apart from 3 int, 4 dex and 5 CON. Balanced resists and armour and 1k+ health.
Melee and pistol players have a really hard time, especially now the melee range of mobs is so large and the damage is so high, terrormaulers doing 175+ per stomp is nuts for example - seeing as they do that every couple of seconds.
Even with nanites and survival kits - tanks cant outheal that damage.
So for range = pve still is easy.
For close = owch.
Lifewaster
14-03-07, 15:02
So for range = pve still is easy.
For close = owch.
I can confirm this, was watching a rank 45 rifle spy hunting WBs yesterday and she seemed to do ok.
Range > all atm with the high dmg the mobs deal back otherwise.
All lvling PEs/tanks/spies might want to consider switching to long ranged for now (rifle or HC).
or people can just figure out some goddamn setups for themselves and stop complaining about stuff being too hard. Sure you cant be level 50 base and solo chaos caves anymore, but who the hell cares? I'm sorry theres a natural progression of what you're capable of killing, how terrible... a game that makes sense. You can still level, not as easily, but maybe thats part of the fun of it.
Everybody who went over to 2.2, redid their exact setup and tried to kill the same stuff in the same way is just mentally retarded... everythings different to an extent, so adjust to it.
everythings different to an extent, so adjust to it.
So no criticism over anything is ever justifiable?
Im not complaining about difficulty because that hasn't changed, mobs are still very easy to kill what Im complaining about is the time and ammo it wastes to kill them and how boring PVE has become its just really boring Im fed up of explaining why its tedious.
So I will just say this. [ edited ]their solution to PVE being too easy is that they overpower mobs which doesn't actually make it any harder it just makes it very, very, very slow and boring to PVE... So they sacrifice the fun of the game in order to balance rewards and imo the actual fun is much more important than balancing PVE rewards.
So I will just say this.
You've "just" said it 67 times so far. :p
Let me tell you, though, if I see one more personal dig at the devs I'm going to give you a three day break from the forums. Keep it constructive and there are no problems.
N
So no criticism over anything is ever justifiable?
no criticism is justifiable, but to complain and then say you're going to stop playing because things aren't exactly as they were...
I think it would be rather strange to keep playing a game that I don't like.
IMO, things were better before and the changes made me consider quitting. Why would not I tell the developer about it?
Dribble Joy
14-03-07, 18:37
I could say reduce hp and dmg, but mobs being more powerful in itself isn't necessarily a bad thing. The problem is leveling time. If dmg and hp doesn't get altered, at least increase the xp/cash gain significantly (as in double or more).
I could say reduce hp and dmg, but mobs being more powerful in itself isn't necessarily a bad thing. The problem is leveling time. If dmg and hp doesn't get altered, at least increase the xp/cash gain significantly (as in double or more).
Agreed
I think the issue with farming was due to people doing things like taking an AoE monk to places like El Farid and just pummelling the hell out of the area from safety. Perhaps it would be better to reduce the armour on all mobs = more damage, and reducing the loot rewards for all mobs, so the player has to sell more of the loot to make the money up. This means players will be unable to 'farm' credits as easily and if go-gos are moved away from these areas, it forces them to take more regular trips to a go-go/yo's or simply go without money.
You've "just" said it 67 times so far. :p
Let me tell you, though, if I see one more personal dig at the devs I'm going to give you a three day break from the forums. Keep it constructive and there are no problems.
N
Ok fair enough I won't say that the devs are too lazy to code a good AI anymore if you think thats personal then I won't say it anymore but please try to understand I really miss the old neocron and I know it seems weird to call 2.1 old and 2.2 new somehow the PVE changes have changed the entire atmosphere of the game even when Im not fighting mobs.
I haven't been playing neocron for a very long time but the 2.1 version just felt so much better its really odd I can't explain it but I think its because of the PVE changes its the only possible reason for it bah Im just making a fool of my self trying to explain how I feel. :o anyway do you have any idea why the PVE hasn't been changed back to how it was already? Is there anything that me and other players who visit the forums can do to speed up the proccess?... Because if there is no effort being made to reduce mobs health, resistence and damage please just tell me now so I can cancel my subscription and stop wasting my time and effort telling you how messed up the new patch is.
I mean is the mass majority of customers/players paying monthly for neocron who want mobs to be changed back to how they were in 2.1 not enough to even influence the decision on whether PVE should be kept the same or changed back to how it was?
If you don't believe me just try logging onto Neocron today and asking on HELP chat "Do you think PVE is better in 2.1 or 2.2?".
After all people only pay monthly for a game if it entertains them and if it doesn't they all quit the game which Im sure no one except Neocron's competitors want. :P
Chuck Norris
15-03-07, 00:02
As far as money is concerned perhaps make drops off monsters for trade skillers to make/refine which sells for a good amount. For example lower lvl recycling could just grab a bunch of junk off something and hit start and it turn into a shiny coin or some thing that sells well at a yo's or some other vendor of course there can be multiple lvls of the made item depending on the type of junk, the lvl and how much stuff you used to make it.
For researchers A one time use researchable item that makes A datacube that will sell well to a vendor.With constructing have bps drop that sell for next to nothing but are of coins or something that you can construct from junk off the mobs and sell to yo's.
Maybe some of the npc runners need pokes too since they probably die in there adventures also. Have some npc on a spawn timer who spams asking for implanter's help and gives the implanter a small credit reward or a coin which sells well to a vendor. This way you could collect coins or something of the sort without overloading yourself with bloody entrails and still make some money.
Eternal Pink
15-03-07, 02:33
Well from my experince with a almost capped HC tank ( got 3 con levels left to get )...
Chaos Caves is still do-able you just need the right armor, you run out of ammo though and the loot/cash isn't enough to replace what you use.
Warbots - Easy at range, a challenge if you charge them, but again cash isn't enough for the effort it takes.
Generally the mobs in the game are harder across the board which is fine but i think the money for a kill should be upped quite a bit just to keep cash flowing, i've used up over 2 mil just playing a HC tank ( pokes, gr's, ammo, armor etc ) so for the new people trying to save for a shiny new herc/gun they are going to experience a lot of problems/frustration, also would be nice if you got a group kill reward, sure 1 launcher cyclob isnt hard for a cr 80 tank but 6 of them is a challenge so for kill 6 of them i think ya should get something.
( well doesn't have to be 6, can be any number since killing groups of mobs is much harder than just wasting one )
I think it would be rather strange to keep playing a game that I don't like.
IMO, things were better before and the changes made me consider quitting. Why would not I tell the developer about it?
And I'm telling you what I think. You're just not giving the changes a chance, which are making you dislike them.
You gave them a "chance" which was to see if they were the same and if your same setups and same tactics would work... and they didn't so now you're displeased. And generally in this type of situation you set it up for disaster by assuming it will be bad before it happens... making you immediately tip the scales towards hating it.
You can't assume someones setup is bad just because they think version 2.2 ruined neocron, I am %100 sure theres nothing wrong with my setup and the only reason I haven't cancelled my account yet is hope that the game gets fixed.
seriously hatmankh, u've said enough! we all know what u think about 2.2 and ur not giving any constructive criticsm. I've never known anyone to whine as much as you. U've found out that they are looking into it and that you are not the only person experiencing problems. I even agree with you, PvE is a bit off skew, but i deal with it and carry on.
Btw, what TL gatling u using? what is ur rank (bothe CR and normal rank) what ammo u using? what is ur wep lore and h-c (or whatever u are using)?
You gave them a "chance" which was to see if they were the same and if your same setups and same tactics would work... and they didn't so now you're displeased. And generally in this type of situation you set it up for disaster by assuming it will be bad before it happens... making you immediately tip the scales towards hating it.
Good analysis. There are certain things that I wanted from Neocron and those are the things that I enjoyed. If I can't do them anymore, it is a completely different game for me. I am waiting to see if I can some day start doing them again but in the meantime I am looking for similar experiences from other games. It is good that you can adjust and I wish the game well, whether I am playing it or not.
I actually had to try the PVE before I was convinced it was bad. Before that my pet hate about Neocron has always been the exaggerated need for tradeskillers. They were always hard to find (apart from the glory days when plaza-1 in NC1 was a true bazaar). Making them even more scarce with 2.2 felt moronic already before upgrade. However, that was just a nuisance compared to the balancing disaster we have now.
But Matanius is right: we have now all expressed our respective opinions on 2.2. History will tell who was right.
Here you are hatmankh
http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=138650
No go do something constructive.
Here you are hatmankh
http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=138650
No go do something constructive.
Sweet! I am going to give it another go tonight! :) :) :)
My only compaint about the 2.2 rebalance is PVE. Spiderbots are over power and take an unbuffed monk to 0 health in no time. Fire mobs at 65/65 do too much damage for not enough reward. 120/120 mobs should be as hard as they are cause they drop rares. Keeping the NPC hp high is fine but lower the damage just a touched. Somewhere in between 2.1 and 2.2 would be good cause 2.1 they were too weak and in 2.2 they are too strong. I have not tried mc5 at all so i cant really say much for that. But i have gone to Ceres lab and well it wasn't fun. Me being a ppu can barely keep myself alive let alone keep others alive. Holy Heal doesn't do enough healing. I like the fact that it was nerfed and that it last longer because of it. But when u nerf something u dont make it useless. When fighting in pvp the holy heal is awesome they balanced it perfect. but pve on the other hand the holy heal never heals enough compared to the damage of lets say a grim chaser. Say u have a max health of 600 and 120/120 mob hits u for at least 100 per shot. It takes the AI about 3 seconds to target and shoot u so in all it would take about 18 seconds to kill a runner. Now holy heal only heal about 45-50 max per tick a tick being i believe 3 seconds.so in that 18 seconds u have only healed 300 health maximum. With the damage of the mobs being how high it is u are certain to die in a matter of seconds. Now making the mobs do less damage would even this out and solve alot of the pve issues. ALSO i agree that altering the Holy Heal will unbalance pvp so an alteration to PVE is needed. but just so it is post I LOVE THE BALANCING PATCH FOR PVP u guys got it right.
when a 20/20 wolf out in the desert takes 20 hits from a holy lightining halo and isnt dead, somethings gotta change lol
Doc Holliday
02-04-07, 09:28
the damage is still too high in pve vs the runner imho. i went in to the swamp caves on a pe with full carbon armour on and high resist in por and caught 2 stacks and died upstairs. that was from the most basic monster in there. its not the bat its the other smaller one. i cant imagine how the shaman would be.
* How do you feel about their overall difficulty (damage, health, armor)?
The health and armor upgrade seem perfectly logical in their current area, damage needs to be toned down alot. As a capped character using the best armor attuned to the mob I'm killing I seem to be ********** without a ppu. Current heals are terrible with this minute long thing, you put a heal on and are basically helpless unless you hide and wait.
* Are the NPCs in the starting areas manageable by new players?
Have not tried them, left and went straight to mutants.
* Are there any mobs that are not worth killing?
Mad copbots and spider bots, the damage they deal and time to kill them at their rank I get no reward for killing them and just junk loot.
* Should there be any changes to the credit rewards for killing high levels mobs (some players suggested the credit reward be removed)?
Again, not everyones rich, we need some form of income.
I'll just preface this by saying that I'm a returning player starting over. My highest character is */20.
* How do you feel about their overall difficulty (damage, health, armor)?
Beggars hit really hard and from a long way away making it very hard to level up in the Sewers Level 2. I decided to go with the plants since they are mostly stationary and I don't have to worry about packs of them chasing me.
Hardest I've fought has been aggie captains and they seem about the same as when I played two years ago. Their damage seems higher, but for the level they don't seem overpowered.
* Starting at which monster rank should a solo, capped player be unable to kill an NPC?
This should be based upon the reward. If a mob is difficult but not impossible for a solo runner then there should be a chance of rareparts. If they require a group (especially if it requires a PPU) there should be a higher reward (Ultimas, MC5, Rare Blueprints, whatever).
* Are the NPCs in the starting areas manageable by new players?
There's a 25/25 MC5 victim that aggro'd from far away and would have killed me if I hadn't been able to run for cover.
There's also a viper that's around 9/9 that was pretty tough but not too bad. It was nice to see mobs in newbie MC5 again. I remember it being pretty empty last time.
The security robots were killable. I did die a few times when I ran into both of them at once. But I remember them killing me in 2-3 shots back in NC1, so being able to complete the quest was nice.
* Are the rewards from killing monsters good now (considering the thougher mobs drop more rareparts)?
In general I haven't had the money problems that some people have. Maybe they were referring to a part of the game beyond where I am at.
The plants in the sewers are one of the better mobs to kill at their level, but their rewards suck. I don't need the old too high rewards of implants and LOM pills, but could you add a little junk so I can clone some ammo?
* Are there any mobs that are not worth killing?
Beggers of all types are too dangerous for me to risk. They do drop good rewards (bone implants), but they are usually in packs and agro from too far away and their shots hurt... a lot! I couldn't find much armor at that level so I can't really protect myself against their attacks.
Also tiny things (cockroaches, small spiders) are almost impossible to hit with the starting drones. I have to be point blank with the starting drones to hit anything. Maybe the drones' aiming value is bugged.
I could say reduce hp and dmg, but mobs being more powerful in itself isn't necessarily a bad thing. The problem is leveling time. If dmg and hp doesn't get altered, at least increase the xp/cash gain significantly (as in double or more).
Now we're getting somewhere.......definitely agree with this, DJ. (You scared me with your earlier post about dropping mob loot, :p )
I have a newbie tank, */7, and am running thru the sewers with a baseball bat. I have noticed that it takes longer to kill lvl 1 sewer mobs, but it's not that bad. I'll check his stats and post later.
Dribble Joy
05-04-07, 21:30
As stated by KK in the at leats one source, mobs above lvl 64 are not intended for single runners to tackle.
Which is fair enough, it makes sense in a way.
However, this makes solo play tedious, if not near impossible.
Here's a suggestion: Increase xp gain dramatically up to lvl 64, then set the xp gradient much lower.
This would make killing lvl 50-60 mobs worth while for a solo runner, and prevent the xp gained with a team in a cave from being so much higher.
*sigh*
KK always seem to do stuff like this ... make decisions that seem so fundamentally wrongheaded and contrary to common sense, let alone business sense, you really have to wonder what reality they are living in.
The level 64 and above mobs needing a team to handle might be a rational idea IF there was a pre-existing large and stable population.
Is anyone really going to tell me that's the case, and keep a straight face ?
I have news for you guys - you aren't Blizzard and, frankly, you are never going to be. There have been too many missed opportunities and mis-steps along the way.
Some have seemingly been out of your control - the initial failure to achieve population "critical mass" can arguably be laid at CDV's door and has probably had the biggest effect, but you really haven't helped matters with some of the subsequent decisions made along the way. I won't start an exhaustive laundry list of landmark "WTF ? :wtf:" moments in Neocron's evolution - I'm sure all the old vets, and most likely you yourselves, already have a pretty good idea of which ones still linger in the memory like unquiet ghosts.
In summation - the PvE changes are another pivotal "WTF ? :wtf:" moment. How on earth did you get this far along with the implementation of this and ever think it would be a good idea ?
DX-Defender
06-04-07, 08:56
im not complaining, but the pve dmg is crazy. at the same time it makes farming kind of suspenseful and exciting. like for example WB hunting..
i was out a couple days ago in j02 farming some WB's.. had 2 WBT's coming after me, the 2 of them shooting me i could handle, but then out of nowhere a small spiderbot sentry comes from behind a hill and 2 shots me. i was pissed till i stopped and thought about it, then laughed.
Dribble Joy
06-04-07, 10:33
Another problem with the 'only soloable up to lvl64' issue, is that there's no areas where solo leveling can now really happen.
Where the WB was the solo mob of choice, these are now near impossible apart from riflers. The whole J_0x area and swathes of the canyon is no longer a place for the lone runner.
We need lvl 55 - 64 mobs in abundance as well as an xp boost or solo hunting - along with a lot of players - is going to vanish alltogether.
first thing that would be needed if the highest soloable mob should be cr 64 would be a cr capp for players at 64. it's redicolous that you can only solo mobs for which you get highly reduced cash and xp, besides a combat ranking system that has nothing to do with your ability to fight is somewhat useless. (i.e. cr 80 runner < cr 60 mob)
OK, skipping over a lot of the discussion.
From a theoretical standpoint, if combat rank means anything, then a runner and a mob of the exact same combat rank should be able to go toe to toe and drop dead at exactly the same time. This to me is a desirable target as it makes sense. Of course we have some significant peripheral questions about whether healing rate is involved or what have you.
However for this to actually work, then the penalty for killing NPCs at or below your own rank in terms of XP, cash and loot HAS to go. Seriously, if my PE is CR82 (as he is, and thats for a goddamn lowtecher) then I should be able to take on mobs higher than CR64, in fact CR82 should be quite managable.
So, given that we have set up a world where player CR and mob CR are equivilant and that its actually worth our time to kill an NPC of the same CR, we are making some progress. A player could either take on mobs a few (~5-10) CRs lower one by one while stood dead still, take on groups of much lower CR mobs while stood dead still, or use their intelligence and tactics to be able to take on equivilant and slightly higher (approx 10-15) CR higher mobs one on one. That sounds like a pretty happy situation to me.
Now a balanced team acts as a very effective force multiplier as we know, so said teams can burn through these mobs and take on substantail groups at similar CRs, or small numbers of much higher CR mobs. That is effectivley the basis of our current cave system.
But what we need is to support those who aren't teetering on the edge of cap, and those who are on their own. We need areas that proivde mid-level mobs for solo and low-level teams. We need PvE combat that encourages something approaching tactics and not just a simple matter of trying to outheal. In short, we need mid level "dungeons". Perhaps in the outlier zones of the city and such. Areas rammed with 50-75 mobs, preferably with availble cover to encourage sensible fighting and the ability to control the numbers you deal with at once. Sure, the wastes can provide these things too, but we need to encourage tactics and provide alternatives, as well as having places where 120/120s aren't likley to wander over.
And then there's the issue of CR itself. Why, if a TL95 PPU spell gives a CR of 59, does a TL27 APU spell give a CR of 66?
Also yes, setting an arbitary limit on what rank of mob is soloable when some runners will not even get a reward for killing mob of said arbitary rank is simply nonsence.
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