View Full Version : Balancing Neocron
i dont have all the answers but i really do think some of these ideas are good and would work to fix a lot of problems with guns,
1). Increase the frequency on burst guns, this would make guns like the CS useful again and only useable by skilled players (meaning CS comes back into play)
2). Increase the frequency on apu spells, this would make them useable, and don't even think of saying apus are fine because they are not, at the moment i can kill a ppu buffed apus without any buffs at all, and as for fighting a apu without buffs.. well theres no point they die so quickly.
3). Either give HAB to apus or remove it from game, I'm suggesting this becuase if you gave HAB to apus it would be yet more insentive for people to play apus again and it would also mean you could actually kill the person who is HABing. Since 2.2 I've seen about 3 apus in total so something obviously needs to be done.
4). Make WOC rifles and pistols spy only guns, this may be contraversial but I think its a good idea really as PEs are suppose to be the average at everything class meaning they should'nt be able to use the same weapons as spys, I do however know im going to get a lot of stick for this one so I'm going to leave it as a maybe.
5). Lower selfbuff effects, it seems that KK has forgotten that when they reduced damage by 10% they didnt do anything to ppus shields meaning a good ppu is almost impossible to kill without HAB, and no I don't think this is a good reason why they shouldn't remove the HAB as it should be possible for a ppu who is standing still to be killed, I've seen rezzing ppus survive attacks from 2-3 people and still have full health at the end of the rezz it's just not right.
6). These last 2 points I just think would be interesting addition and I'd like to see if people agree with me. 1st one is to give tanks the ability to WOC con, the reward being a special heart which gives good resists and health (perhaps similar resist to a mini ppr). I think this would be a good addition because A). Its hard to reach 100con on a tank so i dont think this would be that unfair, especially if the heart didn't give any health bonus and B). It would help to make tanks who spent the time and effort reaching WOC con finally have resist which stand out from the other classes.
7). Change the epic rewards for useful items, we could have another thread to help decide what items to make, I'm suggesting this because half of the epics are completly useless, for example the moveon and gaya glove are completly pointless now so why would anybody waste time doing the epic, it would also just be nice to see some different items to help keep people interested.
I would like feedback from not only players but also people who have the power to maybe impliment these changes or tell me if they are possible/already being worked on.
ashley watts
22-05-07, 17:52
i dont have all the answers but i really do think some of these ideas are good and would work to fix a lot of problems with guns,
1). Increase the frequency on burst guns, this would make guns like the CS useful again and only useable by skilled players (meaning CS comes back into play) Including judge, FL, slasher, exe and generally speaking other weopons then yep :)
2). Increase the frequency on apu spells, this would make them useable, and don't even think of saying apus are fine because they are not, at the moment i can kill a ppu buffed apus without any buffs at all, and as for fighting a apu without buffs.. well theres no point they die so quickly.
Agree, but take it slowly we don't wan't an overpowered class again :P
3). Either give HAB to apus or remove it from game, I'm suggesting this becuase if you gave HAB to apus it would be yet more insentive for people to play apus again and it would also mean you could actually kill the person who is HABing. Since 2.2 I've seen about 3 apus in total so something obviously needs to be done.Completly agree :p
4). Make WOC rifles and pistols spy only guns, this may be contraversial but I think its a good idea really as PEs are suppose to be the average at everything class meaning they should'nt be able to use the same weapons as spys, I do however know im going to get a lot of stick for this one so I'm going to leave it as a maybe.I like this, Spys should be able to use Hightech weapons for being a hightech class in it's self, doesn't seem to kind to give same weapons to spys and PEs considering PEs have everything spys use atm and they get better con :P
5). Lower selfbuff effects, it seems that KK has forgotten that when they reduced damage by 10% they didnt do anything to ppus shields meaning a good ppu is almost impossible to kill without HAB, and no I don't think this is a good reason why they shouldn't remove the HAB as it should be possible for a ppu who is standing still to be killed, I've seen rezzing ppus survive attacks from 2-3 people and still have full health at the end of the rezz it's just not right.Ill let people with a better knowledge for buff reduction work this out :p, though seems unfair if it's true
6). These last 2 points I just think would be interesting addition and I'd like to see if people agree with me. 1st one is to give tanks the ability to WOC con, the reward being a special heart which gives good resists and health (perhaps similar resist to a mini ppr). I think this would be a good addition because A). Its hard to reach 100con on a tank so i dont think this would be that unfair, especially if the heart didn't give any health bonus and B). It would help to make tanks who spent the time and effort reaching WOC con finally have resist which stand out from the other classes.Don't agree with this one sorry, KK has aimed for WoC being an "Alternative" for Classes this would simply destroy that fact, and reching WoC XP with Con would be pretty much impossible without exploiting for newer non vet players :p
7). Change the epic rewards for useful items, we could have another thread to help decide what items to make, I'm suggesting this because half of the epics are completly useless, for example the moveon and gaya glove are completly pointless now so why would anybody waste time doing the epic, it would also just be nice to see some different items to help keep people interested.Agree, EPICS need to be reworked atm
I would like feedback from not only players but also people who have the power to maybe impliment these changes or tell me if they are possible/already being worked on.
Alltogether some pretty nice points.
In regards to the epic idea. maybe a choice of items would be viable from vendor in given factions HQ like swap a "certificate of professional competence" you get from the final npc on completion of epic to get the upgrade from vendor in HQ to "Master" status and choice of items.
And yes non transferable Cert.
Apart from most of the WoC weapons being overpowered, same as some of the rare/ionic weapons, the main problem is that PE's are able to use them for the most part without having to sacrifice their setup more than a fraction. They already have WoC so they're rich enough to have all the neccessary implants along with WoC or Regants PA, which leaves them with great resists, a nice amount of health and insane damage output.
That's what really needs to change. PE's should be required to sacrifice areas of their setup (ie, resists, plus health) to be able to use these powerful weapons (that hopefully will be balanced at some point) or put up with less. At the moment a PE is still able to deal as much damage as a Spy, if not considerably more in the case of WoC Pistols vs Rifles, while having more health, excellent runspeed and better resists. And with the Jones Stealth and nanite heal, they won't often die because they merely stealth, then head to Club Veronique or the nearest sewer, clipwhoring as they go, evading death. If they do die, it's not like you get much from it because they'll have exploited to 100 SL making their belt almost impossible.
I just wish it didn't take Reakktor so long to make some worth-while tweaks. I beg you Reakktor to allow me to kill negative SL allies/neutrals without being punished in the process ffs. Has common sense really become non-existant in that part of the world? :(
yea now iv thought about it WOC heart wudnt work as it would make WOC con be essential but its nice to see positive feedback on my other suggestions, lets hope that sombody who can implament these changes looks at them and finally realises *Hey the NC community want these changes maybe we should put them in*.... however as iv said before maybe a pig will also fly past my window
I would have to agree with most of that.
Increase burst weapon freq, increase apu freq., and give hab to apus(with high psi energy usage to prevent spamming).
Take the high level guns away from PEs, they should only be attainable by "specialist" classes like tanks and spys.
Im not sure about your ppu changes since I just started playing my ppu again and I havent really felt overpowered or unkillable playing him, been killed quite a few times, it may just be that I suck ;)
I dont think the WoC con thing is a good idea, but I dont have any reason why I think that, just doesnt seem necessary.
And yes, some of the epic rewards suck now.
Good list
well im sorry to say after discussing this in NC iv found out all my ideas are shit, woc shud still be needed to use pes and spys, burst weapons should be left alone till KK get up off their asses and work out why they dont work, ppus are fine apparantly, hab is fine and apus spells need faster aim not freq even thought Xstriker aims very well with his spells but still finds it hard cos of how fucked up apus are atm, yes most likly this thread will be closed and this post edited but i dont fucking care atm, NC suxx atm cos nobody agrees on anything so all the changes made are botch jobs and god forbid people ask what the hell they are doing messing around with making a mall when they could have held the dam thing in TH, hell they cud probably have worked out why burst weapons suck instead but i suppose a quick event will take peoples minds off it long enough ey great way to fix the game!!
Burst weapons are just fine - IF you can keep it targeted at all times (thats impossible), if you could do that they would own most people tbh
PS for the love of anything nerf xbows! geez, i can kill about anything with my xbow PE, and its not very fun anymore.. i feel dirty when i use him :(
So now i use judge normally, and xbow when another xbow use comes along (or when im greatly outnumbered)
Dribble Joy
23-05-07, 05:26
1). Increase the frequency on burst guns, this would make guns like the CS useful again and only useable by skilled players (meaning CS comes back into play)
This might not make that much difference unless it's a SIGNIFICANT (as in double or more) increase, as the ratio of firing to reloading time gets worse and worse (my Judge fires for 5.3 seconds, reloads for 2.5).
Dmg increase would be better.
3). Either give HAB to apus or remove it from game, I'm suggesting this becuase if you gave HAB to apus it would be yet more insentive for people to play apus again and it would also mean you could actually kill the person who is HABing. Since 2.2 I've seen about 3 apus in total so something obviously needs to be done.
And we would get the old apu/ppu system back. If APUs are made viable, but the other combat classes can't debuff, which would you choose?
4). Make WOC rifles and pistols spy only guns, this may be contraversial but I think its a good idea really as PEs are suppose to be the average at everything class meaning they should'nt be able to use the same weapons as spys, I do however know im going to get a lot of stick for this one so I'm going to leave it as a maybe.
Can't agree, you're removing too much content from one class.
PEs allready can't use a large number of top end weapons.
5). Lower selfbuff effects, it seems that KK has forgotten that when they reduced damage by 10% they didnt do anything to ppus shields meaning a good ppu is almost impossible to kill without HAB, and no I don't think this is a good reason why they shouldn't remove the HAB as it should be possible for a ppu who is standing still to be killed, I've seen rezzing ppus survive attacks from 2-3 people and still have full health at the end of the rezz it's just not right.
PPUs maybe, other classes no. PEs are allready fucked when it comes to defences (spies have equal or higher and tanks are just mental).
6). These last 2 points I just think would be interesting addition and I'd like to see if people agree with me. 1st one is to give tanks the ability to WOC con, the reward being a special heart which gives good resists and health (perhaps similar resist to a mini ppr). I think this would be a good addition because A). Its hard to reach 100con on a tank so i dont think this would be that unfair, especially if the heart didn't give any health bonus and B). It would help to make tanks who spent the time and effort reaching WOC con finally have resist which stand out from the other classes.
Are you suggesting tank defences are poor?
I'd agree that some CON WoC stuff would be interesting but not in this manner.
7). Change the epic rewards for useful items, we could have another thread to help decide what items to make, I'm suggesting this because half of the epics are completly useless, for example the moveon and gaya glove are completly pointless now so why would anybody waste time doing the epic, it would also just be nice to see some different items to help keep people interested.
Useful, yes, necessary, no thanks.
Burst weapons are just fine - IF you can keep it targeted at all times (thats impossible), if you could do that they would own most people tbh
Actually the dmg/time for a lot of burst weapons is appaling.
Include reload times and the xbow does over 50% more dmg than a Judge.
Include reload times and the xbow does over 50% more dmg than a Judge.
But then again, xbow is overpowered as hell ;) :lol:
I say again, nerf xbow so we can use the weapon we want to use instead of this, where we HAVE to use xbow against other xbow users (unless they are REALLY shit ofc :p )
Why not just lower the damage of snigle shot and beam weapons to match burst weapons?
If i see the damage most woc single shot guns do i really wish fights would take a little longer.
To the OP:
I disagree with most stuff.
Giving antibuffs back to APUs would once again make other classes obsolete in opfights and pvp in general. As no other class could beat PPUs. Who would you chose then? A useless class or an APU that can remove shields? And there we would have the old APU PPU teams back.
Increasing gun frequency would only lead to more reloads, rendering the guns even more useless. If i see how long i can fire a ravager or healing light or xbow until i finally have to reload and the look at my FL that empties a clip in just a few seconds, there would be no sense at all to use it anymore.
And if KK would just fix and balance guns, PEs could happily use WOC guns. Because they wouldnt be so fucking overpowered anymore then.
Tank con woc. I don't know really. It's too easy to exploit i guess. So no, thanks.
On the rest i agree. Increase APU frequency, make melee useful and lower foreign and selfcast shields to match the 10% damage reduction.
Take the high level guns away from PEs, they should only be attainable by "specialist" classes like tanks and spys.
uhm ... you ever tried to do a HealingLight PE? Devourer PE? Executioner PE?
An Option would have been to remove WOC from pe's completly ... which is now basically impossible, since 2 of 3 pe's passing me in PP1 with a woc pa on.
My 2 Cents... Push the Xbow to Dex110, lower GoldenGun to Dex100.
uhm ... you ever tried to do a HealingLight PE? Devourer PE? Executioner PE?
An Option would have been to remove WOC from pe's completly ... which is now basically impossible, since 2 of 3 pe's passing me in PP1 with a woc pa on.
My 2 Cents... Push the Xbow to Dex110, lower GoldenGun to Dex100.The easiest solution would still be the one where KK would finally fix the guns.
If that was done properly there were no problems anymore with xbow PEs as it would do just the damage a TL 100 gun is supposed to do. And not like it's now where most Woc guns are just insane.
For burst weapons, as a first step, I suggested disabling the ability for bursts to go astray as I think it's part of the problem. Bursts either go astray because of range, aiming, or even the target managing to move out of the way. Making bursts follow the target might in fact be a significant boost. It seems quite fair as well, considering every other non-AoE weapon I can think of does the same thing.
Because my Healing Light fails to deal a reliable amount of damage on moving targets (and at that, it's often no damage), I've always ended up using my First Love. Needless to say, it does the job quite well. But because of all these overpowered weapons, such as the majority of WoC pistols and rare cannons, it's like a fucking pea shooter. I'm usually almost dead before taking much of my targets health of.
I wish they would hurry up and make some much needed tweaks to the definitions. If things are now simpler to change, why is it taking so long to do something worth while and balance these damn weapons? :(
Push the Xbow to Dex110, lower GoldenGun to Dex100.TBH, The Golden Gun should be higher TL and the Beretta low TL. It's more sexy and PE's should be left with the more boring of the two as they aren't true specialists. :p
Burst weapons are just fine - IF you can keep it targeted at all times (thats impossible), if you could do that they would own most people tbh
try a gatling on an immobile target and you'll see that even then you miss lots of shots, so there seems to be some kind of inherent missing chance.
oh and in order to get pes to use the lower end weaponry, the attack/defense ratio would have to be fixed, as the slight increase you get in resists for using a lower tl weapon does not nearly make up for the loss of damage output and gets even worse in teamfights with ppu. if you expect a class to use weapons a rifle/pistol tank uses you should expect it to also have the resists of said other class and not ones like a spy with a bit more health.
omg how can u possibly think ppus should have hab! have u seen how many people use apus, theres about 2 or 3 apus on terra so tbh the class is dying, however everybody who had a apu did turn them into a ppu meaning the server is flooded with ppus atm, giving apus hab is definitly a good idea, it wud mean u cud kill the person who is using hab without needing ur own person to hab them. like i said apus are awful atm, even skilled ppl crnt use apus as even with ppu buffs they are god awful, giving them hab would force people to use apus again
i dont have all the answers but i really do think some of these ideas are good and would work to fix a lot of problems with guns,
1). Increase the frequency on burst guns, this would make guns like the CS useful again and only useable by skilled players (meaning CS comes back into play)
2). Increase the frequency on apu spells, this would make them useable, and don't even think of saying apus are fine because they are not, at the moment i can kill a ppu buffed apus without any buffs at all, and as for fighting a apu without buffs.. well theres no point they die so quickly.
3). Either give HAB to apus or remove it from game, I'm suggesting this becuase if you gave HAB to apus it would be yet more insentive for people to play apus again and it would also mean you could actually kill the person who is HABing. Since 2.2 I've seen about 3 apus in total so something obviously needs to be done.
4). Make WOC rifles and pistols spy only guns, this may be contraversial but I think its a good idea really as PEs are suppose to be the average at everything class meaning they should'nt be able to use the same weapons as spys, I do however know im going to get a lot of stick for this one so I'm going to leave it as a maybe.
5). Lower selfbuff effects, it seems that KK has forgotten that when they reduced damage by 10% they didnt do anything to ppus shields meaning a good ppu is almost impossible to kill without HAB, and no I don't think this is a good reason why they shouldn't remove the HAB as it should be possible for a ppu who is standing still to be killed, I've seen rezzing ppus survive attacks from 2-3 people and still have full health at the end of the rezz it's just not right.
6). These last 2 points I just think would be interesting addition and I'd like to see if people agree with me. 1st one is to give tanks the ability to WOC con, the reward being a special heart which gives good resists and health (perhaps similar resist to a mini ppr). I think this would be a good addition because A). Its hard to reach 100con on a tank so i dont think this would be that unfair, especially if the heart didn't give any health bonus and B). It would help to make tanks who spent the time and effort reaching WOC con finally have resist which stand out from the other classes.
7). Change the epic rewards for useful items, we could have another thread to help decide what items to make, I'm suggesting this because half of the epics are completly useless, for example the moveon and gaya glove are completly pointless now so why would anybody waste time doing the epic, it would also just be nice to see some different items to help keep people interested.
I would like feedback from not only players but also people who have the power to maybe impliment these changes or tell me if they are possible/already being worked on.
I think HAB should stay with PPU's because then then they have to make a choice of either healing/shielding/etc OR using HAB. There must be other ways to better APU's.
PE's are supposed to be JoAT's and although they can use most of all the weapons that are not bugged that Spies can also use, I disagree that they should not be able to use WOC Pistols/Rifles. Maybe do some tweaking with the values for Pistols/Rifles increasing Dex requirements, limiting the amount of Rares/Woc weapons a PE can use.
I totally agree with lowering buffs and the Epics stuffm but also the weapons in general need balancing more.
How about that: take away the xbow from PE´s (TL110 then) and give em only the Regant WOC Weapons (with TL100), worth a try.
Apus should get HAB back OR need something else to boost em a little.
More CON or more Casts/min would be ok too.
oh and fix the weapons, specially the burst ones.
after that, it would be more balanced that whole 2.2 now
Just take away the apu/ppu reqs from hab and give it a high psi lvl req. Then apus and ppus can use it and apus won't be needed in order to antibuff and ppus will be less key because apus can fill in.
Then yea, buff apu freq for gods sake. I'd also like to remind people, again, that apus were never ever ever broken. Apu/ppu teams and hybrids were broken. No one ever complained about unbuffed apus. Ever. Its just that apus were somwhat weak without a ppu so you didn't see much of them without ppu buffs. If apu combat ability if buffed (which it should be) just keep a close eye on apu/ppu teams. If they get too strong, make apu points reduce the effect of forign cast ppu spells. There, fairly easy to balance.
Hey,
I started playign Neocron 2 again because i heard about the new changes.
While the game still retains some if its former greatness, the challenges involved in just hunting with a character are so great that i am planning on stopping playing, even though i wish to god these problems could be fixed so i can continue playing.
I find mobs of any kind are doing WAY too much damage.....things i would solo before kill me while grouped with friends.
The Game just needs an immediate difficulty reduction.
While other areas also need looking into as i have read, the difficulty right now is hindering gameplay so greatly that i will not continue to play.
I would like some response from KK about if anything will be done to make the game more playable and fair for the user, if nothing is planned i will be leaving.
Please do not reply in this thread unless you are part of KK, i do not need overflowing complaints ruining the validity of this thread.
Thank you! i hope something is done to restore Neocron to its former glory
Please do not reply in this thread unless you are part of KK, i do not need overflowing complaints ruining the validity of this thread.
I will reply in this thread, as I believe like the rest of us, we do have some sort of right to reply. Sadly being part of any forum community, you do have to read the "overflowing complaints" to get the whole picture. My advice, leave the attitude behind.
Anyway, now that this thread has my attention and that the threadstarter, APU's they are playable, but you do need a good setup and a PPU to look after you at opwars, and you do have to expect to die a lot. I do miss the frequency of the APU spells that made playing a APU monk fun.
Hey sorry about the do not reply in this thread thing.....I had posted the same message in a community thread and there i did not want anyone replying.
I copy pasted to save myself time but forgot to remove that message about replies.
I am not trying to whine about the game as i am sure most people will perceive it to be, mostly because i have seen SO many whiners so far.
I am only trying to convey what i feel is my honest reaction to the new changes. What once made the game fun and enjoyable for me has been changed to the point where i don't think i have the patience to become accustomed to the new way of things. If it is made easier for solo'ers such as myself, even then i could play with several people, but wihtout a PPU there i have no chance regardless.
O well, please let me know if at all possible if any changes will be made.
Thanks
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