View Full Version : [My rant] Balancing
Apocalypsox
23-05-07, 05:02
Alright, now i know you guys at KK are busy with the new updates, but seriously. Put all that shit off. No joke. Before you get into your next big project, i beleive the entire point of 2.2 was to clean out the engine and make it easier to adjust things by just going in and changing a couple values.
GET TO CHANGING THE VALUES
Melee needs to be reworked. Majorly. Increase ROF massively. Remove the WPL requirements. you dont need weapon lore to use a brutes weapon. You dont need to aim a farking knife.
I Have recently made a Melee Char and im astounded. I do 4 damage a hit to basically everything, with about 42 shots a minute my max. I have the dexterity to withstand this as ive dealt with shit like this for 5 years, But new players have not. Melee is supposed to be a heavily defensive close range combat class. Atm they are nothing but people that get mowed over in fights by the mobs because they have to get close and then do no damage.
So get one or two devs adjusting the values according to the communities feedback, and fix 1.) Melee, 2.) Monks, 3.) Droners.
(I dont usually rant about things like this, but melee is rediculous.)
/Agreed
melee is not viable AT ALL now, droners are too fucking sick, and pls make APU aim a little faster/make them able to hit things that are more than 3meters away..?
Bredahl have you actually played melee in PvP since 2.2 or are you just repeating something that someone has said because saying "Melee is not viable at all" is actually wrong in my opinion.
I been playing on my melee tank in PP1 quite a bit the last couple of days and I have killed tanks, spies and PE's aplenty. I'm not saying it is ideal at the moment but melee is viable enough to win at 1 vs 1 and sometimes 1 vs 2 PvP. The damage is low, rediculously low i grant you. It can't be denied because if an APU or Spy has foreign ppu shields and heal then attacking them on my melee tank does no overall damage. Foreign ppu heal out-heals melee damage if they have foreign ppu shields.
On the other hand, when they are NOT ppu buffed, then due to the insane speed of a melee tank meaning you can evade being hit ALOT (of course depends on the skill of your oppenent(s), you can quite easily take down tanks, pes and spies.
This means that at the moment melee is not viable for OP wars where under ideal situations everyone is shielded. He would not be useful on the target called by the target caller because they should have shields and heal on them. He'd just get in the way. Therefore he'd have to basically just have to hit every enemy until he finds one without shields.
Yes i have tryed melee in 2.2 and if you find someone skilled you do not have a chance of winning.. nuff said really :rolleyes:
Apocalypsox
23-05-07, 07:45
...
Beleive me. Ive seen your work. But the point being, Melee damage is clusterfuckingly low, and your RoF is shit on most weapons. (RoF wouldnt be a problem if damage was boosted significantly)
TicketInspector
23-05-07, 09:32
Fix APU's. Thanks.
Bredahl have you actually played melee in PvP since 2.2 or are you just repeating something that someone has said because saying "Melee is not viable at all" is actually wrong in my opinion.
I been playing on my melee tank in PP1 quite a bit the last couple of days and I have killed tanks, spies and PE's aplenty. I'm not saying it is ideal at the moment but melee is viable enough to win at 1 vs 1 and sometimes 1 vs 2 PvP. The damage is low, rediculously low i grant you. It can't be denied because if an APU or Spy has foreign ppu shields and heal then attacking them on my melee tank does no overall damage. Foreign ppu heal out-heals melee damage if they have foreign ppu shields.
On the other hand, when they are NOT ppu buffed, then due to the insane speed of a melee tank meaning you can evade being hit ALOT (of course depends on the skill of your oppenent(s), you can quite easily take down tanks, pes and spies.
This means that at the moment melee is not viable for OP wars where under ideal situations everyone is shielded. He would not be useful on the target called by the target caller because they should have shields and heal on them. He'd just get in the way. Therefore he'd have to basically just have to hit every enemy until he finds one without shields.
Melee needs a huge boost at low to midlevel and generally in pve.
In pvp it seems nearly fine, maybe a slight damage boost. Because i think you mostly win with a melee tank because of the shit netcode.
And i' ve seen you in PP1. You better not brag too much here. Equal characters with equal skill and except if it's an APU i would bet all my money against the MC tank.
On the other stuff, increase APU RoF a bit and lower the damage slightly. I think the damage only needs slight increase, it's the low frequency that makes playing APUs so damn boring.
And then nerf drones to shit (Yes, the latest "nerf" didn't really change anything. Actually it changed nothing.) and FIX THE DAMN GUNS. The difference here in damage is so fucking huge, it's just hilarious. All i ever see these days is PEs and spies with WOC guns and lowtech tanks with devs/ion cannons runnig around at the speed of light.
Thread moved. I'm not involved in balancing so, please, no "It's that all you've got to say?" replies. It's not as likely that your information will be seen if you post it in the wrong place. ;)
Thanks.
N
Melee needs a huge boost at low to midlevel and generally in pve.
In pvp it seems nearly fine, maybe a slight damage boost. Because i think you mostly win with a melee tank because of the shit netcode.
And i' ve seen you in PP1. You better not brag too much here. Equal characters with equal skill and except if it's an APU i would bet all my money against the MC tank.
On the other stuff, increase APU RoF a bit and lower the damage slightly. I think the damage only needs slight increase, it's the low frequency that makes playing APUs so damn boring.
And then nerf drones to shit (Yes, the latest "nerf" didn't really change anything. Actually it changed nothing.) and FIX THE DAMN GUNS. The difference here in damage is so fucking huge, it's just hilarious. All i ever see these days is PEs and spies with WOC guns and lowtech tanks with devs/ion cannons runnig around at the speed of light.
Yeh i dont mean to brag, i'm just saying it's definitely possible to pvp with them. Melee tanks already have the advantage of being so fast that they're hard to hit and the RoF on knuckles and claws is ok IMO, just not for the swords or bats. I'd rather have a weapon that has a lower freq but higher damage due to the netcode because some of those hits don't register.
I reckon they just need a damage boost like 5 - 10 % and that's fine. Also i don't see why as a melee tank i'm not allowed to choose my damage type mod. Pretty stupid TBH.
Archtemplar
23-05-07, 20:31
Melee weapon duribility needs to be looked at too, I broke a pair of nuckles (from 120 to 0) in 30-40minutes. I'd be getting message stacks of about 4 "Active weapon has been damaged" over and over again.
Apocalypsox
23-05-07, 23:03
Thread moved. I'm not involved in balancing so, please, no "It's that all you've got to say?" replies. It's not as likely that your information will be seen if you post it in the wrong place. ;)
Thanks.
N
Thanks Nid. Kicked myself in the head for posting this in the wrong forum last night.
Now the moral of the story is that Droners need to be re-fixed, Monks need balanced, And Melee needs majorly boosted. Just adjust the values slowly and readjust them according to what the community has to say.
Melee weapon duribility needs to be looked at too, I broke a pair of nuckles (from 120 to 0) in 30-40minutes. I'd be getting message stacks of about 4 "Active weapon has been damaged" over and over again.
Definately agree. Melee weapons need repairing atleast twice as much if not more times than rifles and h-c and I'm assuming its the same for all other spells/weapons.
Archtemplar
25-05-07, 01:06
Definately agree. Melee weapons need repairing atleast twice as much if not more times than rifles and h-c and I'm assuming its the same for all other spells/weapons.
Seeing as how kk doesn't seem to believe us without a log entry, here's a little proof. My mc'er using self constructed claw against a hurler:
05-24-2007 01:09:11 > Your active item has been damaged.
05-24-2007 01:09:15 > Your active item has been damaged.
05-24-2007 01:09:33 > Your skill STRENGTH has increased. New level is 32.
05-24-2007 01:09:41 > Your active item has been damaged.
05-24-2007 01:09:56 > Your active item has been damaged.
05-24-2007 01:10:09 > Your active item has been damaged.
So for the less gifted kids, this means that i took 5 durability hits in less than one minute
EDIT:
Just in case you might think this is a rare occasion:
05-24-2007 00:40:02 > Your active item has been damaged.
05-24-2007 00:40:58 > Your active item has been damaged.
05-24-2007 00:41:02 > Your active item has been damaged.
3 in one minute
05-23-2007 18:37:05 > Your active item has been damaged.
05-23-2007 18:37:20 > Your active item has been damaged.
05-23-2007 18:37:45 > Your active item has been damaged.
three in 40 seconds
05-23-2007 23:35:25 > Your active item has been damaged.
05-23-2007 23:35:27 > Your active item has been damaged.
2 hit in TWO SECONDS
There, now I hope this info gives the dev's who dont play the game some info on how the game works. :p
... and please fix the stamina drain. It is too high.
Hightech-combat is useless, because of the damage type.
Apocalypsox
25-05-07, 08:39
yeh...i got into using a bat today...and my stam cant keep up -.- i guess its understandable swining a giant blunt object though. BUT IF I WANTED TO SWING A GIANT BLUNT OBJECT, id get a sledgehammer tbh. (Thats actually a good idea for a melee wep)
Mele is Toast PvE for sure. Pistol's aren't much better if at all. Same for APU.
Basically, once you start doing damage and draw aggro, you die.
It's a LOT of fun.........
Drones are pretty much toast for PvE now. My lowbie droner's drones last all of about 20 seconds against Cyclopse now, but a tad better for PvP. Don't quite get that one as they were already quite overpowered in PvP...
But honestly, I think it's too late. Server pops are lower than 2.1 now (at least when I'm on) and Newbs never seem to stay more than a day or 2. It's just too hard to level solo. And you have to level solo because the only other folks on the server are capped and non LE.
The one group (Newbs) that could have made a difference for Neocron pop during this 2.2 conversion were the ones who got completely shafted.
It makes no sense at all.
Right now even i think the game is dying. Or that KK don't care anymore if it's gonna die.
:(
If you guys saw what kraz could do in an OP fight on his former melee char using HK's you'd be screaming overpowered.
But still, we aren't kraz so buff melee :p
Yeh i find that knuckles and possibly PoB are the only viable PvP weapons, but i dont spec for PoB so mostly use The Dentist as its the only one were i need to use LESS than 3 stam booster 2's per person per fight generally. I've had to change my keyboard config around quite a lot to make up for easy access to all my stams in my quickbelt.
Basically the melee weapons need a damage boost of i'd say 10%, the probability of weapon degradation be halved if not more, and the amount of endurance used per hit decreased by half i think. It's pretty standard on other chars to use 1 - 2 stams per fight i'd think. Since melee does less damage, fights are longer anyway so maybe the 10% increase in damage would mean that the endurance required wouldn't need to be halved but maybe decreased by a third instead.
Quick question i know you mention that HK knuckles seem good but does anyone have any to quantitatively measure the difference in damage/freq between it and The Dentist to see if they worth it?
William Antrim
25-05-07, 18:54
If you guys saw what kraz could do in an OP fight on his former melee char using HK's you'd be screaming overpowered.
But still, we aren't kraz so buff melee :p
this is the problem with balancing, too many people get beaten by a clearly better player and scream overpowered when half the time its something entirely different at fault.
Dribble Joy
26-05-07, 16:07
I've being toying with the idea of giving melee and pistols a flat dmg increase in PvE, but it doesn't really help in some situations.
In the WL it would be great, but in cave, pistols would be much more preferable than rifles, AoE would be the only thing keeping heavy users there.
Perhaps there could be outdoor 'caves'. Basically zones, either WL sector or like the abandoned slum zones that have wide open spaces with some cover and lots of high level mobs.
Or perhaps a special armour type for WL/open area mobs that only works against heavy and rifle dmg.
Apocalypsox
27-05-07, 04:38
alright, ive done some leveling and testing now, and heres what ive found.
These are all to Launcher Cyclops
Tl3 special alloy knife. RoF about 50 a minute, damage is 4
TL5 Knuckles has a RoF of somewhere around 35-40 a minute (drastically slower than the knife) and a damage of 3.
TL13 bat has a RoF of 38-44 a minute. Damage is a bit better at 6, but the RoF nullifies that bonus.
TL17 Sword is the best i have used. RoF is 52, and damage to a Launcher is 8-9.
TL21 Junkknife has a good RoF of 50+ and low stamina drain, with a damage of 6. Woop Dee doo.
So 20 strength levels later, and im no better than i was starting out.
If you guys saw what kraz could do in an OP fight on his former melee char using HK's you'd be screaming overpowered.
After finding that HK's are no longer WoC and don't give 120 stats or guaranteed slot(s), they seem very pointless.
Archtemplar
29-05-07, 17:35
alright, ive done some leveling and testing now, and heres what ive found.
These are all to Launcher Cyclops
Tl3 special alloy knife. RoF about 50 a minute, damage is 4
TL5 Knuckles has a RoF of somewhere around 35-40 a minute (drastically slower than the knife) and a damage of 3.
TL13 bat has a RoF of 38-44 a minute. Damage is a bit better at 6, but the RoF nullifies that bonus.
TL17 Sword is the best i have used. RoF is 52, and damage to a Launcher is 8-9.
TL21 Junkknife has a good RoF of 50+ and low stamina drain, with a damage of 6. Woop Dee doo.
So 20 strength levels later, and im no better than i was starting out.
I, too, noticed this 'feature,' However, once i switched to the first claw, my damage doubled to around 21 per hit with slightly lower freq.
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